>>719711907 >>719712231 I get that Trump was trying to cover base with Pence on his side. It's still a bad idea to get anyone popular by evangelicals to gain power. The fundamentalist religious assholes need to be thrown out of the conservative base. Catholics and other religious groups against abortion will still side with Republicans even if they don't have any representation. The issue of abortion alone is good enough for them.
>>719713217 As opposed to all the SJW, left, and liberal crybabies? Literally, right now? Are you serious? You must be joking. No one is that retarded... Unless... You, anon, you got an extra chromosome? I got a good feeling you do!
>>719720755 The worker does not have a choice because he/she must work in order to buy necessities. Whether they work at one place or another, it doesn't matter because their labor will be exploited regardless.
>>719720625 And yet the USSR still fell apart because of economic troubles.
Going back to their GDP growing it's mostly because Russia's GDP was at fucking rock bottom. Anything would have been better than the chaos of the revolution and the restructuring that followed. After that there was war where many of their materials were supplied by the US. Following that was their expansion into multiple foreign nations helping to bolster their economy further.
>>719721003 The soviet system collapsed because of Gorbachev's failures as a leader. The majority of soviet citizens did not want the union to dissolve, and even today most russians lament the fall of the USSR. If it was so terrible and there was no food and shit like the media would have you believe, they wouldn't have wanted to remain under the "oppressive" system.
>>719721139 Yeah, and everyone can start their own business? Who would work there? You need capital to start a business and the mass of laborers cannot get capital because everything they earn must be spent on shelter and food to survive. Even then they need government assistance like welfare.
>>719721151 So stale was the Soviet economy that the typical Russian had nothing to spend their money on. You know what they did with all that money? They saved it. Either in the bank or in shoe boxes. They had so much saved that a typical worker could take a year or two off from work and live off their savings. Socialism is shitty system.
>>719721268 >Yeah, and everyone can start their own business?
>Who would work there?
>You need capital to start a business and the mass of laborers cannot get capital because everything they earn must be spent on shelter and food to survive Get a loan or get a job and save some money so you can have capital to start a business
Once you start your own business then you can hire people to run the business and you never have to work again!
>>719720860 You dont need an iphone, food grow on tho dirt and you have a lot of wild life to get food from You can just leave civilization behind and live as a free soul, but you want a warm bad and youtube, dont you?
You need collateral for a loan. What collateral does the laborer have? The average laborer needs to spend all their money to survive, how will they save? Your position so far is pretty naive, that everyone has a chance and everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That's simply not the case.
>>719721620 >Yeah well if you don't like it go somewhere else! I want the world to be better for everyone, not just me, and the way to do that is to spread socialism.
>>719721268 As a Russian, my blood boils when I read this type of stuff "AMERIKA IS OPPRESIVE, BECAUSE THE WORKER CANT DO SHIT AND IS A SLAVE!" "WOW SOCIALISM IS THE BEST, BECAUSE THE WORKER IS FREE TO WORK 16H A DAY TO THE PARTY SO THE OFFICIALS CAN RAPE THEIR DAUGHTERS AND KILL ANYONE WHO DONT AGREE WITH THEM!"
I hope you have a Revolution, then the rednecks and niggers will be the members of the party and you effeminate retards will be killed to give space to more rednecks and niggers
>>719722008 >It went poorly once so lets never try it again! The USSR was state capitalist, not socialist. Under a capitalist system things inevitably degrade. Shit may be ok now but it will just get worse. What happens once climate change catches up to us? When we can't export all our hard, oppressive labor needs to third world countries?
>>719721726 You want the world to be the way you want it to be. You think that you have the solution, but you dont. URSS only survived for that long time because Russia was an HUGE EMPIRE before, and because of the will of my people to live. You dont know shit about URSS and Russia, please dont spread bullshit in the name of your sick slavery fetshist desert cult
>>719722397 I make about 1100 a month. my rent is 550. my electric is around 110. My food is about 200 and I do not buy shit instant food. I don't even own a microwave and home make everything. the rest of my money goes to medical bills and my car. woo capitalism.
>>719722271 Shit, you're right anon. I should just stop working right now and stop buying precious metals when I can.
There absolutely no way I can get a promotion at work even though my bosses told me they were training me for a management position in the first month with no college education. There's no way I can improve my own life through my own initiative.
>>719721989 I love this shit. If everyone had their own business, then everyone wouldnt have someone to work under them. But if you had your own business, youd have someone to work for you, but you wouldnt cause theyd be working at their own business MAGAMAGMAMGMAMGAMGMAMGAGMAGMAMGMAMGA MAKAE AMAAEKEAIRICA GREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>719722961 You sell your time and energy for a fraction of what it is worth because it's the only option since you don't have enough capital saved to start your own business, and the remained is enjoyed by a super-rich class with golden humvees
>>719720008 >facts unrelated to how well a political party will run a country >gloss over the only meaningful fact that democrats are more educated >r-republicans are b-better than d-d-democucks haha rite guiz?
>>719722626 Maybe you're right. Considering that capitalism led directly to you being able to shitpost your misguided beliefs on an underwater basketweaving forum, perhaps capitalism really has failed.
>>719722925 pretty impossible to do since I work mixed shifts at my current job. Not many people want employees with a schedule like "monday, wednesday and fridays" and I can't quit my job without another one because I would risk losing my apartment and livlihood. For example, my ex girlfriend once applied for a job and quit hers only to be told a week later after they hired her that her position was filled. The poorer you are, the more you pay and the higher the risks and firm financial planning is about minimizing risks. Not taking them on.
>>719720178 It's almost as if there is a reasonable compromise between the unlivable 7.50 an hour that is currently in place and ludicrously high numbers that republicans keep picking. Say... I don't know. 15 dollars an hour?
>>719720008 The only thing I got anissue wïh there is that it makes it seem like democrats are all jews In reality democrats are all black(christians), spanish(christians), neckbeards(atheists], and college kids(atheists) All of those groups individually outnumber the jews in this country
>>719723207 You need someone to work at the bottom in communism. There will always be a need for someone to clean the toilets and change the garbage. There will always be a need for someone to shovel the shit from the stables or to take calls.
>>719723376 hes not asking for your help. Its a point that not everyone is in this position to just make a shit ton of fuckin money if they felt like it. The system is rigged against the majority of the people and people like you just think its laziness
>>719722742 Let's imagine that everyone took a fat shit on your chest at the same time. Wouldn't that be insane?
That's what your argument sounds like. Imagine everyone does that? There is no world where everyone will try to start a business. Most people don't want nor have the capacity to. But, because every successful business means a higher demand for jobs, that means that if many (not all) people create businesses, that will mean more choice and better wages for workers.
The problem right now is that there is a stunt in entrepreneurial growth. There are barriers to entry that don't need to be there. Remove the barriers, let people start businesses unabated, and competition will work to benefit everyone like it always has.
>>719723646 no one is advoacting communism. Were tlaking about socialism. And obviously people have ot work the bottom shit head. Im not the one saying we have to have everyone starting their own business. WE want a normal fuckin wage
>>719723730 That was my point! Not everyone can start a business so your idea that the poor are just lazy is bullshit. Some people have to be poor for the system to work.
The more successful a business gets the more the wealth concentrates at the top because of all the excess wealth being created and not given to the workers. These big business owners then purposefully buy out and monopolize to stop others from coming up because they know there have to be poor people
>>719723825 That's not feasible in a capitalist economy
>>719723848 The minimum wage right now is not enough to provide a base quality of life, that's why people at mcdonalds are instructed in how to apply for welfare
>>719723537 Just because the base of internet was started by the government doesn't mean it had anything to do with the many future innovations that lead to this site. Nor did it have anything to do with the devices you are using to type your shitposts.
If the internet were started and controlled (ie socialized) by the government, this site would most likely not exist.
>>719723825 youre trying to get some kind of "Cause that would be dumb" response, so i dont know what to tell you.
The more people not dying from poverty is a good thing. The more people educated is a good thing. The more people fed is a good thing.
Some how you think one guy owning more food then he could ever eat in a lifetime is okay even if 1000 people die because he didnt fairly give it out. He doesnt have to give it out for free obviously, but not at some astronomical price.
>>719723809 Then get a b e t t e r j o b. Minimum wage provides you with what you need to survive which is what someone is arguing people need to be paid. If you're on minimum wage and you can afford all your bills but nothing luxurious or any really big dreams then isn't minimum wage working as intended?
>>719723848 Yes they spend everything they have. That doesn't mean they are getting all they need. If I gave you one dollar a month and you spent it, it doesnt mean that you're getting everything you need.
Eating, being clothed, having a home, education, and medical coverage are not luxuries items. These are NECESSITIES. You need to be able to have these in life. Getting a better job is completely dependent upon these things. YOU NEED A MINIMUM WAGE HIGH ENOUGH TO PAY FOR THOSE THINGS. W H Y D O N T Y O U U N D E R ST A N D T H A T.
>>719723932 Are you talking about part time workers or full time workers? If the full time workers can get by without welfare then once again, isn't welfare working as intended?
>>719724028 And what do people need? Food, shelter and transport to get to work is the baseline for what you absolutely need. You actually don't need a wife, family and house or luxury goods. Those might be necessary for happiness but not for survival.
>>719724151 I don't feel like doing the math myself right now so here's an article http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/are-us-wages-enough-to-live-on/ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/30/osbornes-national-living-wage-minimum-wage http://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-workers-poverty-anymore-raising/
First off, my whole point is that many people starting businesses is where the benefit comes, ie competition. Not everyone can start a business, but most dont need to. Those that do create jobs and demands, which boosts wages and makes it so less people are poor.
But, that's not the situation were in right now, I agree with ya. But we disagree on why. The main reason wealth "concentrates at the top" has less to do with free markets and more to do with crony capitalism and manufactured barriers to entry. The main reason big business owners buy out others and monopolize (in some industries) is because of the barriers to entry that only big companies can wade through and take advantage of.
tl;dr: Your fear of monopoly is a direct result of government intervention, not capitalism. And even worse monopoly results from a centrally-run economy.
>>719724328 >Why can't the poor live in my perfect idealized reality where no one NEEDS to have a simple life where they can have children and a family? Let's just put them all in communal shelters and bus them to work!
>>719723376 went to school for awhile as a computer science major, got on the deans list even. Got cellulitis half way in though and was hospitalized. Now they want me to pay back the loans before returning to school. Which.. I'm just... Not paying at the moment. They are just going to have to wait until after I finish paying back my medical bills from the infection. Applied for a couple places in the comp sci field anyway. None will give me the time of day without a degree though. During one interview I even shook hands with the boss and welcomed me on the team only to have the hiring manager tell me shortly before my first day that I forgot to provide information on my degree. All my other skills are pretty worthless. I can cook everything from italian, mexican, greek, and even vietnamese food. I can draw, sculpt and paint, I can make my own wine, pressed my own olive oil, made my own yogurts and cheeses, and have done glass and copper distilling, I can hunt, tanned my own leather, taught myself how to repair everything on my car. Replaced the calipers, changed break pads, shit like that. In the meantime I have no major artery in my left leg.
>>719724513 They create openings for exploitation. The wage system is exploitation no matter how highly you pay them, unless they pay them exactly the amount of wealth they generate in which case it's not even a wage.
Capitalism inevitably degenerates into crony capitalism, which is why everywhere started out as capitalist and is now crony capitalist. The government intervenes because big business buys it and makes it happen
>>719724245 Of minimum wage rises, my business goes under do to my massive overhead. When my business goes under, my employees lose their jobs, along with myself. When we're jobless, we have no money. We then become dependent on the system. A system who then has to continue increasing taxes to pay for its out ravenous welfare programs. Why can't you understand that?
>>719724692 A socialist economy would not work the same as a capitalist one and therefore known measures of the success of a capitalist economy would not be accurate.
For example, in a socialist economy unemployment would be a good thing because it would mean there are more people than need to work. In capitalism most everyone has to work and that creates a lot of needless excess, like all the food that gets thrown out and all the goods that sit in the back of stores not getting sold.
>>719724842 only freelance job I could pick up was doing raster art and setting up a print server for a local laser imprinting company but they don't need my help except very randomly which I usually spend on bills.
>>719725201 Like the collapsing economies of the EU? The union of nations that's facing economic stagnation so bad that one of their principle funding nations is pulling out of it? You mean those nations?
>>719725168 I don't think it's my personality. I usually have a girlfriend. I am actually taking a break after my last two and remained friends with most of my ex girlfriends and my professor had me teach the class while she helped a student before which I have no problem with. I have no problem getting entry level jobs either. It's just that they don't usually pay much better then my current one and my commute to my current job is very very low so even if there is a slight pay increase. It would just even out because fuel costs.
>>719711978 ok, in Slovenian culture it is custom to bring gifts to people who´s houses you are invited to, you bring mostly food, flowers or maybe something more expensive like a tie, jewelry or something else. This black man is clearly not understanding foreign cultures and should therefore educate himself before she judges this poor immigrant woman. This is racist and xenophobic, and this oppressive black man should be jailed.
>>719725671 Lets say you actually get a post scarcity economy working (which you never will because there are finite resources spread out unevenly) do you know what will come after it? A new kind of scarcity. What happens when a person doesn't have ability, looks, personality, connections, etc.?
Some people will always be at the bottom, anon. That's just the way of the world. It doesn't stop me from caring about them but you will never be able to provide everything for everybody
Do you honestly believe minimum wage below equilibrium will actually RAISE to the equilibrium? That if the minimum wage was raised to 15 dollars an hour there would somehow be less jobs that need to be done? Why would a company hire any more employees than they need to? if you need 20 employees at 7.50 you still need 20 employees at 15 dollars.
>>719726071 in actuality, Milton Friedman pointed out that we are slowly coming to a point where we are producing more then we can consume. So this artificial scarcity would continue to be a problem and suggested a guarenteed wage for the oor to compensate
>>719726209 To get to the system you want you'd have to eliminate human greed entirely. That's simply not going to happen either. People will always be greedy and jealous even if people are just jealous of a smile, hair or voice.
People will always desire power, influence, money, knowledge, looks and so on. The thing is that different people want different things and you'll never be able to provide everyone with everything they could ever want because human nature kicks in once again.
When the Democrats get back in the power of the alt right is going to be investigated and many of you could be put into reeducation camps or centers for your behavior Trump is going to be impeached within the first hundred days
>>719726415 Homes are not private property in the way marxists say they want private property to be communal. Private property is something that generates wealth like a factory.
>>719726457 Ah, the human nature argument. Human nature is relative to the environment. People act differently based on where they live and how they live. If things are communally owned and always accessable to everyone, no one has the need to be greedy and hog things to themselves.
>>719726779 A true socialist economy hasn't existed, it has been state capitalism aka capitalism where the only employer is the government. The idea was that would be used as a transition to a socialist economy but that never happened for a variety of reasons.
>>719726653 Maybe then instead of the CEO of your company making 50 million a year, he could take a meager 45 million and allow the employees to stay. Or is that asking too much? Or do you mean the smaller stores and companies? Where the only reason they are in business is because they are paying their employees a wage that cannot be lived on? In which case maybe that company shouldn't be operating in the first place.
>>719724127 Msm shows what it wants to. Everyone has bad pictures taken of them. Everyone has good pictures taken of them. There were no bad pictures of Obama in msm, there are only bad pictures of Trump in msm.
I have yet to see a Trump supporter that wasn't a redneck piece of shit. I'm living in Minnesota and a majority of people despise him but the few that do support him know nothing about him and are just hillbilly fucktards. And the people rioting are dumb too. What are valid reasons for supporting him? Policy-wise
>>719727223 And yet people still do these things quite regularly despite the threat of force. So once again how do you stop people from hording? How do you stop people from being greedy? How do you conquer basic human nature?
The real answer to that is to use people's pettiness and fear to keep them from doing these things. You set up a system where people are encouraged to spy on their neighbours, to report their family and to suck up to the government that's obviously necessary to provide that threat of force.
It's starting to look like your socialist dream is getting more and more like the failed socialist and communist states
After all the suffering of the russian civil war the people didn't have the strength to finish the transition and so stayed state capitalist. Mao Zedong died and his successors decided to keep it state capitalist to keep wealth for themselves.
>>719727273 >>719727273 nah there is some truth to that. I worked in the media back in the day, and we would do shit to Clinton's pics all the time. Always use the one that makes him look guilty blah blah blah.
But if you look around the better news orgs do use a mix of photos, including some pretty presidential ones of Trump.
btw, as someone who clearly throws around the "msm" tag - please do yourself a favor and do your own fact checking ok? I think you are going to find that while the msm is biased ( and corrupt at some level due to the nature of corporate ownership ) - it is pretty rare for them to just make shit up. Our new president lies constantly, says whatever he needs/wants to, and blames criticism on the msm.
That is some serious bullshit. I've never seen a politician in the US lie the way that Trump does. Sure on a few issues ( say global warming or guns or unions or whatever ) - but not just balls to the wall "fuck you I'll say what I want doesn't matter if it is true" lying.
>>719727659 >>719727659 they don't even do that you scrub. the wealthy kids I know vacay in different countries, have massive trust funds, no one gives a fuck. if they want to "work" they have hook ups in london and bankok and hk, nyc and fucking everywhere. Instant admission to top colleges, economic schools etc if they are willing to put in any amount of work.
you are like those broke ass rednecks in the country who don't even realize how poor they are. Shit you probably think you have it "good" if you get a few grand back from the government at tax time.
>>719727899 >>719727899 this is a problem with any of the "utopian" governments. I don't have an answer, no one really does. I mean it is hard for people to even sacrifice for their own families... much less your enemies.
But that doesn't mean there isn't something valuable to be gained from those systems. And if you look at the people behind these discussions , there is almost always common ground. We all want what is good for us and our families. We all love people. We fear losing the things we care about.
>>719728109 No matter how much you tell us to be quiet, or use sexist and racist terms to hurt us, we will still stand up for what we think is right. Yes, we cry - today is a dark fucking day for democracy. But we will turn it to our advantage and build a better country as a result.
>>719728305 You're right, and there are good ideas to be had from every political system. These utopian systems are an interesting thought experiment but they're impossible to bring into being. What you can do is take their more moderate, achievable goals and incorporate them into your system and when the time is right for them even the more extreme ones.
However, the more extreme measures are emergency measures and should be discarded once they've stabilized the situation. There's no reason why good socialist ideas can't be incorporated into a democracy. The same can be said of facism.
1. MAKE MORE MONEY GEE THATS EASY. JUST TELL YOUR BOSS TO GIVE YOU MORE AND HE WILL YAY CONSERVATISM
2. Yea boi stop flipping burgers and get a career even though all careers take a college education and getting one of those in the lower classes is basically impossible unless you literally don't make mistakes on anything in school and/or you're a super-athlete. Barring that you are born a plebian and you will die a plebian. Capitalism at works bois, so gr8 and flawless
3. Dumb and lazy? Oh ok, sure. its not like its almost certain that he is just in a situation where advance is impossible since he doesn't have the meaningless slip of paper to advance in his field, and getting that slip costs tens of thousands of dollars, which if you're in lower middle class/poverty, is pretty much impossible. >when conservatives understand nothing about fucking anything
Please support this website by donating Bitcoins to 16mKtbZiwW52BLkibtCr8jUg2KVUMTxVQ5 If a post contains copyrighted or illegal content, please click on that post's [Report] button and fill out a post removal request
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows an archive of their content. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.