How can God be a benevolent being if hell even exists in the first place?
So first off I'm a 20 year old atheist. I've been an atheist since I was 17 but before that I was a Christian. I was raised in a Christian family, around Christian friends, and in a Christian community - but I think I've always been at least a little bit skeptical. A lot of Christians have told me that it's not God's fault if you end up in hell, it is your own. Now, that is understandable, but why should anybody have to end up in hell in the first place? If God is truly omnipotent why can't he just make it so that you cease to exist upon death if you are not Christian? Why does he have to make it so that you get to burn for an eternity just because you had a different viewpoint in your physical life? I don't understand how a loving being could allow that to happen to ANYONE, even Hitler. I just feel like the whole concept of hell is such a sadistic and messed up thing for a god to create (a god that supposedly loves his creates) and send people to for the simple fact that they had a different outlook on life. To me, hell sounds a lot more like a cruel scare tactic - telling people if they do not follow one way then something unthinkable will happen to them. I remember when I was younger I sometimes use to wonder things like "how do I know my religion out of the thousands is the real one?" and "how do I know god exists without any physical signs of him?" but I never pursued those thoughts any further because of the fear of hell. I guess I'm just sort of curious as to how somebody can say such a being is benevolent when it has no issues allowing people that it supposedly loves to burn for an eternity with absolutely no way out.
It's a state of oblivion which is close to what you describe god should do.
Listen I understand the atheism and anti religious wave that is hitting everything and everyone lately, but have you considered that there is a god and that both sides (atheists and even religious people are wrong)?
Let me explain, what if people are too stupid and interpreted everything the wrong way? We follow Jewish adventure books but what if the real creator was not Abrahamic?
What of he wasn't even connected to Jesus? Can you deny the possibility?
>>717332098 To make it to heaven you have to repent for your sins. If Hitler went through the intense mental anguish and metamorphosis that accompanies repenting for sins like that, then he should be able to go to heaven as a new person.
The road to heaven is meant to be difficult and painful. God tests his followers, and nobody will get in by sweet talking him.
>>717332098 >I guess I'm just sort of curious as to how somebody can say such a being is benevolent when it has no issues allowing people that it supposedly loves to burn for an eternity with absolutely no way out.
It's because He respect's peoples life choices. He doesn't force anyone to heaven, if someone doesn't want to have anything to do with God, then He doesn't want to have anything to do with you. It's as simple as that.
you have freedom of choice my man... without it, you would simply be a puppet on a string living out a life that was predetermined for you. God WANTS you to WANT HIM. He won't make you love him. You are free to choose either way.
>>717332098 First off, you can get out of hell and it isn't eternal. Secondly, Jesus wasn't Jewish, the Old Testament is a crock, and he went out of his way to demonstrate that. But he had to do it within certain constraints or he would have been stoned to death by the Jews themselves and thus could not have had the spectacle of a crucifixion. If he just got stoned to death, he'd be discarded as just another blasphemous prophet of no significance. What decides your immediate fate after death? Your last thought immediately preceding your death. If you're in the habit of thinking happy, loving, nice thoughts, your chances of a heavenly afterlife (which may be very brief before you're flung back down here again) are greatly improved. If your thoughts are mostly selfish, cruel, or hateful, you're more likely to have a hellish existence, even if it's just for a short time. The more good you are, the more intensely you focus on good during your life, and the more you eliminate "bad" (not sin) from your life, the more likely it is you get a good afterlife and a long one, and that maybe your next life after that will be better than your current one. Also nothing except God is eternal, therefore impossible that your afterlife would be. The purpose of your afterlife is not to punish you, it is to prepare you for rebirth into the world (not necessarily this one... could be any inhabited world).
>>717336978 This is complete bullshit, even ignoring the resurrection stuff.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18)
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:17)
Now lets look at what that means. Every law has two parts, the crime and the punishment. When you break a law by doing some crime, or sin, you are now under the law until it is fulfilled by suffering the appropriate punishment. Once you have, you are no longer under the law, it has been fulfilled.
Christ was punished for all of our sins. HE took that punishment on himself, though he did not deserve it. By accepting his sacrifice for your self, the law is now fulfilled for you too.
Seriously, Check out Paul's letter to the Romans starting about chapter 7, he really lays out how this all works. I'd suggest a New American Version or New International Version for ease of reading.
>>717338071 Freedom to live a good life doing good, without acknowledging some imaginary sky-creep is watching me take a dump and counting how many times I don't thank 'him' for a universe that doesn't require 'his' magical intervention to operate just fine... just to get into some maginary sky gulag when i die, where I get to suck up to said sky-cunt and kiss this fucker's ass for only a few hundred billion years without parole.
>>717338196 There was no crime. Eating an apple is not a crime. It's good nutrition. Gaining knowledge is not a bad idea either. Bad laws are not laws worth acknowledging nor accepting. Jesus came to pay for a crime nobody committed which can't be passed on like an inheritance anyhow. Fucker died for nothing and wants something from me for his bad choice. I owe these imaginary cunts nothing. Problem?
>>717332098 Personally I enjoy one of the Jewish answers I heard. God is EVERYTHING. The good AND the bad. There's no devil that causes people to do things. It's simply the good and evil voices in your head. Everyone has them. God has rained FAR too much destruction in Old Testament to be purely benevolent. Sometimes people have just had one of those days where you've had it up to HERE with everyone and everything. Why should a God that created us in its image not?
>>717334581 Why test anyone or anything when you're omniscient? You already know whether or not you planned for it to pass the test, so why create the test, just to doom a vast majority of your own creations?
>>717335570 Wow, what a set of options this benevolent deity has offered, complete subjugation and worship, or burn in eternal agony and torture. Yeah, that's some free will he's giving you there. The option to save yourself from what he's going to do to you if you don't choose to save yourself.
>>717339506 I've read the qur'an. It's hilarious garbage. I urge everyone to read it. If you read the qur'an and end by saying "Mmmmmm! That sounds plausible" then we've found the retard in the room. It's you.
>>717339736 Except it's just oblivion. If you are an atheist, then you will get exactly what you expect after death.
Humans were created by God so that there would be some creature with free will. Those who choose to follow him are welcomed above even the angels. Those who choose not to will simply get what they wanted.
>>717337592 You guys actually think that what is written in the New Testament that you buy today is what was actually written in it when it was written? I don't know how you can be so naive. It's appalling and ridiculous. They manipulated whatever they needed to in order to consolidate their power and confiscate lands etc. There are hardly any Christians today who practice Christianity. Look at how the churches are temples of vice. Centers for profits, not prophets.
The truth is very different from what is written in the pages of your silly book.
For example, why would "Satan" have bothered trying to tempt Jesus when he would have already known that wouldn't work? And why would Jesus have put himself there? And if there were no witnesses to this, then how could anyone know it happened?
Same goes for the nativity story and so on. Overlooking for the moment that it is a stolen story from another legend, modified and adapted to fit the Christian doctrine, let's look at the rest of the facts... no way that anybody was there to witness these events, so the author could only be writing it based on hearsay evidence.
Jesus would not have cursed the fig tree. That was childish and didn't make sense. Also Jesus could have made the fig tree bear fruit if he wanted to, which would have made more sense.
And so on and so forth. The Catholics fabricated a lot of it and cherrypicked what to include from what actually did exist.
Here is what really happpened: Jesus did change many of the things that were considered law.... working on the Sabbath, eating whatever you want, not stoning people to death because they have sinned, and many other things, argued that the divorce law was wrong, put a stop to money changing in the temples, and most importantly, told people to stop making sacrifices. That was a really big one. So he did a lot of things, but preserving and protecting Old Testament law wasn't one of them. His comments had a different meaning to that given.
>>717338196 Anybody sick of the fact that we have to understand the bible to debate christianity/(a)theism, but most Christians don't even understand or appreciate the difference between theists, deists, atheists, or agnostics?
>>717338881 The sin was disobeying God's rules for living in His Garden, not eating an apple.
The Bible has a long history in the old testament of using a sacrifice for the remission of sin. Th problem was, no sacrifice man could come up with was really good enough. They would select the -most- perfect lamb or goat to sacrifice, but none of them were -really- perfect.
Jesus, on the other hand WAS perfect in God's eyes. His sacrifice was enough to clean the sin from everyone, for all time. But you gotta CHOOSE it. It's not automatic. And once you DO choose it you gotta walk the walk. THAT'S the hard part.
And it works like an inheritance because God says it does. Accept that Jesus died for your sins, live a life God can accept afterwards. That's all he requires of you and you're in. You're trying to apply human logic and thinking to a being that is not human.
The alternative? That's pretty easy too. God's coming back, eventually. All of His children will be taken to a NEW earth to live WITH HIM. The rest will be left behind to whatever fate THIS earth has coming.
>>717339124 I'm convinced ever religious person has some nagging doubt that they have to condition themselves to close their eyes too, with either mental gymnastics, indoctrination into arguments built on confirmation bias and muddled thinking, so it calls into question how religious people are as well. Which I think is resoundingly answered by the fact that even churches have lightning rods, and people no longer go to clerics for bloodletting, but rather can get actual medical treatment based on biological advancements that the church fought tooth and nail.
>>717339995 No. I've read many of the books taken out of the bible by the Romans. You know... The tales about jesus as a child and his pet dragon and how he killed some other kids and made birds from mud and magic. And the tales about jesus sleeping with a young man who he had brought back to life from the dead.
Do not assume we're all as ignorant of your scripture and bullshit religion as you, anon.
Forgive the god with the big plan, she who is omniscient and omnipotent? For changing the rules all the sudden?
It's the single most contradictory and irreconcilable aspect of Christianity that by itself should be enough for a self-respecting person of modest intelligence to laugh at the whole of Abrahamic religions.
>>717338071 Are you retarded? Your religion restricts everything from thinking to living your life like a normal person, from the day you are born you are stuck with a book with rules and doing anything the book forbids "sends you to hell"
>>717339856 Muhammad was known to be quite modest and kind. He believed in things like equality and altruism, and tried to modernize the region. It's such a shame that much of the Muslim world even now ignores the core of his message, and uses it to justify their sinful lives. > pedophile Except he married Aisha when she was probably 17. Other people manipulated the texts to emphasize her virginity, and perhaps to justify their own pedophilia. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Age_at_marriage
>>717339792 Islam is a very different religion, though worshiping the same God. It addressed all my problems with Christianity.
>>717339903 If you're that blinded to the truth then I just feel sorry for you.
>>717340834 Read it and see for yourself. And don't tell me you have, edgy, hipster atheists ALWAYS say they have when they've only seen cherry picked passages on whatever Tumblr or Reddit echo-chamber they hang out in.
>>717340881 Faith is ultimately what I'm talking about, or rather, it's lack thereof evidenced by the religious individuals inescapable drive to grasp the worldly blanket of logic and technology even as they are in their places of worship. Hence the lightning rod on the church roof analogy, but it's much more comprehensive than this obviously; they grasp many worldly blankets; medicine, science and tech are probably the biggest, but you don't see people praying for their cable signal to improve; they adjust the antenna. The only thing that really gets anything done is action. Faith is an ill-defined and worthless abstract used to manipulate people's fear of death/the afterlife. Respect your point of view though.
>>717340641 But that black kid, it's just karma biting him for the shit he did to someone in some other life. And the baseball player is reaping the rewards of his good karma from some other life. As ye sow, so ye reap.
>>717332098 I mean people weren't supposed to go to either heaven or hell. Hell was made with the intention of placing beings that wicked creatures in. We were meant to stay on earth and have that be our domain. But despite our fuck up he gives us a chance to make it into heaven. Christianity is about having Jesus paying for your ticket into heaven. Not believing in him is like saying you want to try and pay your own way in by being perfect.
>>717341089 Islam is a hilarious bag of jokes. I recommend EVERYONE to read the qur'an. It is fucking hilarious. I shit you not. If you thought the bible was funny and filled with bullshit, you'll fucking LOVE the qur'an. Read it this year. You'll thank me....
>>717340717 I'm an atheist and I call bullshit on that, christians have to live 24/7 in fear of doing something that would make jesus angry. I know I'm not suffering because I know I came from nothing and I will come back to exactly that, I don't remember much pain back then and I'm sure its not too different from falling asleep.
>>717335880 What's the point though? Why would God do this to us? Why create something that you get mad at for being different when you purposefully programed it to be able to think differently from you
>>717340755 God gives us the freedom to believe what we will. He also gives some of us the wisdom to know when we are being duped.
If you wanna believe that there is no God, that there is no afterlife then good on ya, m8. I got an antique iron bridge to sell you in New York, you'll love it.
The old testament is filled with stories of how God's Chosen People kept fucking up. It started with the Golden Idol they made right after they left Egypt. People are generally just fuck-ups when it comes to this, and every time, God would wait until a new generation had been born and try again. And again. And again.
Finally he tells Humanity "Just follow THIS guy, and we're cool." And here we are, still fucking it up....
It is "accepting that for which there is no evidence nor can there be any evidence". It is the opposite of logic. It is "holding true that which may not be true without a reason to do so"... as opposed to logic which is "holding true that which can be shown to be true".
>>717341119 Im not afraid, I'm in a better position than you both, whether God exists or not when I die, I will find out, so why should I care? In my end I'm going to die with a clear conscience that I lived my life as I wanted and that I didn't irritate any deity.
>>717332098 This is a fundamental misunderstanding on the nature of Hell, also the argument against omniscience/presence/potency is specious because it contains a fundamental flaw in the understanding of nature of man. There are many, many writings on both. Look them up and do your own work. Read. Start with Catholic mystics and Doctors of the Church.
>>717332098 >Christian >Doesn't even know about his 'religion'.
If you follow the Christian faith: only those who reject the Christ will suffer for their sins, as the Christ child paid the blood price for your sin and holds the keys to heaven. For you may only reach the Father through the Son.
Wide is the way to destruction. All are given the choice in the end.
>>717332098 Meh. Its an interesting idea, but the Bible wasn't written by God or Jeebus.... it was supposedly written by men who knew Jeebus. They had a vested interest in having others follow their way of thinking, so even if Jeebus existed and really was the son of God, who the fuck can say exactly how accurate the bible is? Hell could well be a human construct, a scare tactic devoted solely to making people think they have to followvthe word of God to get into heaven.
Mind you, pretty much every religion, ancient and modern, has a 'Hell'... a place where non-believers and bad people go after they die.
So yeah, the concept of Hell far predates Christianity anyway. Christianity borrows a lot from other religions, so the concept of Hell could well just be a carry over from them.
>>717342532 ...except time spent contemplating and planning for and ensuring your compliance with something that's highly likely untrue and only one of many many possible options on a planet with many mutually-exclusive 'faiths'.
>>717342585 I would force them because I'm not that mean. I just want things to work. I would want my workshop to be full of functioning inventions. not this broken shithole where the best I can do with my approval ratings is maybe 1/4 of the population of my subjects.
Hell has to exist, otherwise where is the justice? It was made for the devil and his angels, not for man, but any man who rejects God will end up there as well.
Now, what do I mean by saying "reject God"? It's important to first understand what the problem is, and that is sin.
Sin is disobeying God, which can range from insulting someone to murder! We look at these as small and big sins, obviously stealing is not the same as genocide, but at the end of the day, both are still sin.
The wages of sin is death and separation from God, and God cannot simply blink at sin and provide forgiveness, because he is a just God, which means justice MUST be served. Someone has to die. Someone has to pay the price for all the sins.
If you pay the price for your sins, what happens? You die, but then you're separated from God forever. The standards to get into heaven, into the presence of God, is perfection. Even if your only sin is saying a single curse word, that's already non-perfection, and you cannot be in heaven. The Bible says "God is light and in him there is no darkness".
So you might be thinking: "This is impossible, nobody can be saved, nobody is perfect, everyone has sinned".
You're right, so what is the solution? How can God provide forgiveness, yet remain perfectly Just at the same time?
The answer to this is in the cross. God himself manifested in the flesh as Jesus Christ, lived a perfect life of no sin, then was tortured and killed by his own creation, on the cross, saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". Then rising again 3 days later for all eyes to see, defeating death and providing you OP, and everyone else on earth, forgiveness of sins, so that you can be presented as blameless to God, as if you never did anything wrong in your life.
That is the love of God towards you OP, it's not about making you comfy and giving you toast for breakfast, it's about things your human mind could not even understand, so don't be so shortsighted! :)
>>717341782 Faith is fairly ill-defined in that it means something different to nearly anyone you ask. For you it's faith in your particular conceptions about Jesus and the judeo christian god, for another, of even the exact same sect or church, that is a completely different quantity. No need to be insulting if you can't even keep up.
>>717342605 Satan is part of God, and he is an instrument by which we are tested. What is the point of having free will if there is no other choice, and no temptation to be led astray by?
>>717342814 Not necessarily. It's more like giving a kid a candy and telling him that if he doesn't eat it for ten minutes, he will get two more pieces of candy. You can choose to enjoy the material comforts of this world, or you can walk a much harder and much more satisfying path.
>>717343163 The thing about faith is that there can BE no evidence. I could give you my own experiences but you would not accept my Testimony, nor the testimony of millions of others, as valid because it would not suit your argument or purpose to do so.
>>717343179 >I just want things to work. I would want my workshop to be full of functioning inventions.
We had that, in Eden. We fucked it up. God gave us a choice and we chose wrong.
>>717342741 What's the Jewish one like? What's the Shinto one like? What's the Norse one like? What's the one the Kinjuju people have faith in like? What about the afterlife as described by the Holy Frog Woman of Saigon?
>>717342585 I wouldn't be a moron and create creatures which would disobey me later on just so I would have reason to burn them after they died, and spare me the "free will" bullshit. If god existed and he would be truely omniscient he would know what choices a person would make even before the person would be born.
It takes real heavy brain damage to be guided by "faith." How it is comforting to others giving trust into the hands of nothing is amazing. I hear time after time people drop 1 liners like "It's in gods hands now." What the fuck? Just like that. They have rules they play by, like life is not shit enough with the law of man, now they play by 2 rules. They give money to their church instead of shit they actually need. Religion is a strange thing. Id like to think I am the master of my own destiny, and if things go wrong I could make them better, instead of hoping a deity will wiggle his wand if I clasp my hands and prey to the watermark on my ceiling, only after admitting faults and donating copious amounts of funds and time so I can maybe see spaceland 3D (on ice) after I die.
>>717332098 Im not gonna read your text. The only thing I want to say: I recently converted to autism. I was a former catholic. I feel happier then ever. I got no friends or gf anymore and I developed 1 special talent. Im smart. Being autistic is the greatest thing that ever happened to me. For 2017 I try to convert people to autism by going through the neighborhood like jehova.
But instead of full outright saying there is no God of the Universe maybe what you're looking for isn't in Christianity? Or at lest not this time in your life, maybe not ever again. I was atheist at a very young age (~13) until some deep thinking and drug use and all kinds of experiences which opened my eyes closer towards the truth. Right now all I can agree with myself being called is Pantheist, and beyond that I am less assured in what I think I know. So I say don't let this thread be a place to debate about theories like this, though it does help, let this thread be something that allows you to further interest in it all and seek out different viewpoints which you can take some or none from to further your own perspective on the world around us. Do what you feel is right, you don't have to all the time, but just try to be a good person and to learn and explore all of the things around you. Look at religions other than Abrahamic ones (judiasm, christianity, islam) but also stay aware of those who only seek to put you into their corner of the ring, keep fighting for your own pursuit of whatever it is you desire. Or let go of that all, lol buddhism good luck with that!
>>717343555 28million people in the ancient world would have been able to give you testimony about how Zeus lives on Mt Olympus with some goddesses and does magic. Testimony is unimportant and not evidence.
What the hell is a soul? REALLY, tell me what that is. Can you describe it in any tangible way or are you just repeating drivel some other arrogant follower told you? That's what I thought.
My best approximation of what religious followers are talking about when they say "soul" is some sort of afterlife existence that involves a floaty boaty energetic essence of what you are now. Unfortunately, without a brain your floaty boaty essence will have no memories and no perspective or understanding of ANYTHING because that is a function of your physical brain. So let's suppose you do have a floaty boaty SOUL, what does it matter where it is or how prepared it is? It will have no perception, sensory, or analytical abilities. Feelings? Pain? Joy? You need a physical brain for those. Otherwise you have nothing. No thoughts, no gods, no lies.
>>717343919 My point exactly. No matter what proof I could find, you will not accept it. You can't, so you must move the goal-posts, as it were, to protect your ideals.
You might believe one man's account of seeing bigfoot, or another's account of being kidnapped by aliens, but tens of millions of Christians relating there own, personal experiences is just to flimsy, right?
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:25-26)
>>717344263 That's because you're not presenting proof. You might think you are... but that's because you're not too clever and think any old shit is 'proof'. Present evidence and you're in with a chance. Got some?
>>717343239 >where is the justice People like you need something to reflect their life choices on, people like you can't comprehend life without rules and regulations. You need a guide book because you cannot come up with things that are good or wrong in your head. You're the kind of person that thinks if there ever existed a purely atheistic world existed people from that world would run around beheading themselves.
>>717344482 And that is why it is clear you have a mental-illness. You don't care about truth... just your own selfish protection of your own self-constructed bubble of belief. That's a sign of a mental abnormality. Get well soon.
>>717344263 All it proves is generations before technology passed teachings they themselves were taught. The ways of the past are given new hands, but the truth of it is people have outside opinions and ideals now.
Religion will die soon enough. Through ideals of the past incapable of change, war or practice, we will die with it. With religion, nobody wins except the collection plates.
>People like you need something to reflect their life choices on, people like you can't comprehend life without rules and regulations. Neither can you, no matter where you go or what you do, there are rules and regulations. Do you obey traffic lights? Do you pay taxes? Do you respect your parents? Do you condemn theft?
>You need a guide book because you cannot come up with things that are good or wrong in your head. I don't need a guidebook, as the law of God is written on our hearts, we are made in his image as moral agents.
Coming up with "good or wrong" myself is actually horrible, because then morality is not objective, and anyone can come up with their own rules. Hitler won WW2? Dang, I guess killing homosexuals and gypsies is good now. Might makes right, nothing we can do about it.
Objective morality means moral laws that exist independent of human opinion, and without God, these cannot exist and all morality becomes subjective, and I assure you nobody lives like that even if they give lip service to subjectivity in their nice first world apartment while listening to Sam Harris on Youtube.
>You're the kind of person that thinks if there ever existed a purely atheistic world existed people from that world would run around beheading themselves. No, but beheading would become a neutral act, just like every other act. Richard Dawkins put it best when he said, at bottom there is morality but only pitiless indifference. We are machines made to propagate DNA, we are nothing but animals.
>>717345326 >No, but beheading would become a neutral act, just like every other act. Richard Dawkins put it best when he said, at bottom there is morality but only pitiless indifference. We are machines made to propagate DNA, we are nothing but animals.
Really? We're pretty much living in an atheistic world right now, I can't see any beheadings being done in the Europe/US and what, is our society being adapted to the bible or the other way around? Your bible keeps adapting to our society and it will right until every retard realises it was bullshit all along
>>717345582 Read the book of Luke. That book, and Acts, were both written by the same guy, a physician undertaking an investigation of "this Jesus person" at the behest of some luminary named Theopolis. This happened some 70 years after the events in question.
There you will find the testimony of Thomas, one of the Twelve who traveled with Christ during his ministry, and who doubted his own eyes when Christ rose from the dead, until he put his fingers in the holes.
That's the best I can offer you. If you wanna know more about God, go ask Him. Get it straight from the being himself.
>>717332098 I guess the idea is that God is pure, so anything with lots of sin can't be around him. So he made a place for them to go. Unfortunately it sounds like he made it with all his wrath involved. People want to look at God as a pussy, it's probably due to the media and just every ones own fears and desires. But regardless the big guy in the sky is the 'baddest' thing out there, you kinda have to pay that fact some respect. He clearly asks everyone to fear nothing but himself. Before anyone complains about that it's also for your own benefit, like everything else he suggests or commands. To fear only the lord means you have no fear of any enemy, God isn't your enemy even though that's how people see him. From what you've said OP, it sounds like you grew up in a christian life style and didn't pursue any real relationship with God. For me heaven and hell have always been the last thing on my mind. I can't imagine either so I don't bother. I know what I need on this earth is help, cos life is hard. In that pursuit I've seen things and felt things, known things, down right miraculous. So I don't doubt God, he's revealed himself to me, it wasn't a quick easy process. There are days where it's easy to forget my blessings and stumble. But when you think about his spirit as water and his word as bread. It makes you realize then you forget about God, you're starving and you won't be able to function with out him. You won't see him, or hear him or trust him. I think you followed other people. Friends, family, community. You didn't think and seek for yourself. Thats how a lot of 'atheists' end up.
>>717332098 There are LAYERS in hell. There is limbo which is a slightly more boring heaven, but not totally hellish, and people can even leave isf they ask for forgiveness and wait long enough. The onther layers are for rapists, murderers, the greedy etc. atheists and such will go to the first layer, limbo.
>>717346127 No where, in any scripture is Jesus described as being Omnipotent or Omniscient. Even God himself is not described as such.
The only thing either is described as being "All" of is Loving.
It's funny you mention Jesus Magic because there IS in fact a story in the Bible of how one person did just that and without Jesus' permission.
The story goes that when Jesus was traveling a woman with what was described as a bleeding disorder mearly touched his robe as he passed. She believed so strongly that that alone would cure her.
Jesus was heard to say "Who touched me? Someone touched me, I felt the power go out of me."
Reports are that she was cured. Jesus said her own faith had cured her.
That seems to be the key to the Jesus Magic, Faith. Even Jesus himself reportedly said "If you will have faith even as small as a mustard seed, you will say to the mountain 'Move' and the mountain would move."
>>717346101 No we're not, you're only living in your little bubble where you think that's true
Besides, I never said there would be beheadings, I said that if there were any, then as an Atheist there's nothing you can say to condemn the beheadings because you have no foundation for objective moral values.
Sure you can make up your own morality, but if someone disagrees with you, what makes your morality superior to his? That's the issue here. Without God, you're left with relativism.
The Bible is not adapting to this world, some people are, and if you actually read the Bible you would know that the situation we are in right now was perfectly described as what will happen in the future, and this was written thousands of years ago. I love how so many Atheists pretend to know the Bible, but in reality know very little to nothing about it.
>>717332098 If you stop and think about it, we're all living within the body of God. Organized religion is a sham but some of the main ideas of the bible translate into universal truths. Look at your own body, there are doctrines laid out that your cells follow for the most part and we're supposedly made in the image of God. It would therefore make since that we would have an innate desire for growth and preservation of our environment. There are extenuating circumstances within all of this that cause adverse reactions, like levels of degradation in preserving nature, similar to that of cell death in slow motion by our account.
>>717346558 Well then in that respect all atheists are safe. All an atheist needs is actual proof of God to believe, and with limbo they get that. What's to stop them from not believing their whole life, dying and going to limbo, thereby giving them proof, and then believing and going to heaven? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of believing in life?
>>717345884 Consider how many dimensions we live on, and how those dimensions have dimensions onto themselves. A popular theory about why we cant measure or see dark energy/matter is because it exists on another dimensional plane from ours. what's to say that souls arent just a "special" kind of energy existing on a different plane of reality, one which niether you nor I are able to comprehend. Im not the anon you were arguing with btw im just putting out a theory here, you believe whatever you want my dude.
Personally I believe in quantum suicide. Going off of the theory that every choice you make branches off into an alternate reality, I could put a gun in my mouth and fire. To ME the gun will misfire and I will not die. To the other alternate reality me he is dead as the gun fired. I can continue to pull the trigger and it will malfunction everytime because the only reality my mind can exist in is the one with which the gun hasnt gone off yet. try it for yourself OP.
>>717346405 Yeah, but did you really want to talk to him?
Seriously. Did you really want to talk to Him, or was this the mental equivalent of a crank phone call?
Look, I don't care if you believe or not. I really don't. But one of the tenants of my faith is to spread the Word, so that's what I'm doing. If I can raise a question in your mind that has you seeking answers, great.
If not, oh well. Savin the savable is the best I can do.
There are heaps of books, videos, etc. that you can get into if you get curious about this whole "God" thing. It's not about being some edgy angsty teen or being a smart, cool atheist with a leg up on reality. Like that matters.
Are you happy? I am, mostly. I'm not afraid of death, though dying gives me some pause, because it means I get to see my Pops again and go flying with him. Heaven for me is a couple of Spitfire Mk14s and a clear sunny day over the channel. Your mileage may vary.
But if you wanna know more, pick up a copy of the Bible and read it. I recommend and NIV Study Bible. Lots of cross references and definitions of non-english words. Good shit.
To everyone else: It's dinner time. Thanks for the argument, loved it as always. Have a good New Year.
I need to copy and paste one sentence? And a strawman response? Really that is all you have?
You have no proof of the afterlife, so you are speculating. I'd put no weight or bets on your words. It's just as reasonable to say that we all get ride unicorns on the rainbow highway when we die, but ONLY if we were wise enough to poop in the woods while wearing nothing but a top hat in the rain while facing Northwest. There just as much proof for your account of the unknown as there is for any arbitrary explanation.
>>717347478 The whole purpose of that post was to say that just like dark matter and dark energy cant be seen yet it still exists on an alternate plane, a soul could be the same, making it possible to exist without us knowing a lick about it. Although another possibility is that because you can humanly experience "nothingness" then your perspective is shifted onto the very next sentient being to come into existence capable of experiencing reality. A sort of reincarnation, of the mind. IDK like I said Im just saying theories here, I dont believe in anything.
>>717347478 Thats why I said the word "theory" asshat. Because the concept of god, and the concept of no god is just that, "theories" NIETHER can be proven. its just whatever you are brought up to, or choose to believe in.
>>717347851 Sarcasm or are you legit, because the thought of branching realities could prove what happens after death. Like say you die of old age, well to yourself you will not die as you happen to live in the reality where you are the first person to live to 200. stuff like that.
>>717347939 We never were talking about the afterlife, you are simply desperately looking for ways to attack me, and even then you actually have no actual thoughts other than saying "Oh you think you know, well you don't! haha stupid!" Oh okay, thanks.
Do you have proof that Alexander the Great existed? If you can't build a time machine to prove it, I will not believe it.
Your arguments are just silly. My belief of the afterlife comes from the Bible, so the question you should be asking is whether the Bible is true or not.
In the same sense, if we want to know that Alexander existed, we check the historical data we have. We don't build a time machine.
Yes, I really wanted to talk to an imaginary person who you made up in your head.
You ABSOLUTELY do care if I believe, it's crucial to your fragile ego...and that of every other proselytizing christian. You'd feel pretty vulnerable if you were the ONLY person in the world spouting what you have been going on about for the last hour here.
Tghe bible is a horrible piece of literature. Contradictions, plot holes, rambling nonsense on pretty much every page about things that may or may not have happened a long time ago, but are incredibly banal, boring, and just plain don't matter.
>>717348312 I haven't personally spoken to God, and I do know when and how my own brain talks to me, I don't need you to tell me that. I do know people who do talk to God, and heal in his name, as well as prophesy. There are also people who have been into Heaven and Hell as part of a vision, dream, or near death experience, and many of them were non-believers who then came to believe.
There are thousands upon thousands of cases like this, and there are tons of testimonies all over Youtube from people of all walks of life.
>>717348034 And that bullshit means nothing, NOTHING at all.
Let me explain... If you change the word 'jesus' for 'allah' you can find a similar number of bullshit stories. Now change the word into Zeus and go back a thousand years... ditto. Now change the word to Amun... go back another thousand... and ditto. Means NOTHING.
Diseases clear up. The human immune system is damn good. Folks are lucky. It happens.
>>717348686 >Get over it... It's called reality. Said the person who has done no research whatsoever, doesn't even care to find out, and immediately reached the conclusion that the other person is false.
See for yourself, don't judge before knowing anything about it. That's the sign of a stupid man.
There are stories from other religions, very few I might add compared to Christianity, and usually don't involve supernatural elements. It's also important to remember that the dark side exists as well, so demons can do supernatural things as well.
>>717348844 >These things you talked about that I know nothing about can easily be explained by brain activity This is what close mindedness looks like, people
And no they're not explainable like that. People don't get out of wheelchairs they've been in for years due to brain activity, nor get cured of cancer or feel overwhelming unconditional love while speaking in languages that they didn't know but others understood. These are not natural events.
>>717349020 It means to be in a relationship with your creator.
>Yes it is. If you propose something is more than just a thought in your head, you need external evidence. It's not, and sure if I was going to convince you that something is true, I would need to provide you with evidence, nobody is denying that.
What evidence do you want? Historical? Scientific? Philosophical?
You do realize that Atheism has a burden of proof as much as Theism does, right? Agnosticism doesn't though.
>>717349049 Ever cracked open a history book? Have you? Your claim doesn't stand up. Every other religion... not just your imaginary jesus. .. has supernatural claims. Many, many more than your religion, going back thousands of years. Mythology. Look it up. Maybe if you'd studied the subject?
I'm ATTACKING you? You're the one making presumptions about where I get my words from. I have made no such attack on you, nor have I called you stupid, those are your words. Mental illness is a serious thing, you can take that as an insult, but I mean it in a serious manner. I truely think Joseph was schizophrenic and Jesus likely had a severe case of narcissistic personality disorder. These are conclusions any legitimate psychologist would support given the evidence in the bible as well. It's VERY fair to say it. Take offense if you like, but that's the fact of it. I can link you to wikipedia pages on these topics if you aren't aware of such afflictions.
My arguements have yet to be countered by you. You provide dogmatic responses about hell, and god's love and healing, all of which are other people's words, they are not your analysis and conclusions. I know this because I've been around long enough to hear this dogma over and over again from Christians. It's an ever-present cognitive dissonance that pastors have been drilling into followers for hundreds of years. It's boring and easily countered.
>>717332098 The Eastern Orthodox conception of "hell" is entirely logical. After death, those who have rejected and defiled the love of God experience the majesty of God's benevolence unfiltered by the flesh and they experience it as an eternal burning. Only God is eternal and the only hell is man-made resistance to the divine through an indulgence in sinful nature. God is the only good in the universe and outside of it, our free will is His gift to humanity.
>>717349180 Funny that you wanted to know about the dark side rather than the light side...
Sure though, here you go. I've seen many videos, but the 2 that popped into my head right now are the following:
Jerusalem demonic sighting over Dome of the Rock (Title says UFO, but there are no UFO's, they're actually demons) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHSqRKmhQcs
Or, glass breaking during ouija board session (ignore the clickbaity title) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_E_e9Tlz0M
In fact, I suggest you watch all the videos compiled by this dude called Xendrius on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI7uHI1x09A (Part 1)
I don't know about his other videos, not too convinced with the conspiracy theories, but from my own experience and talking to many people and reading many testimonies, I know these demonic activities exist.
> It means to be in a relationship with your creator.
...which means what?
And atheism has no burden of proof. It is the default state we are born in. When we have no beliefs in anything upon entering this world. I was born not believing in god, unicorns, leprichans, santa clause, etc. I don't need to prove they don't exist, because I did not posit that they did.
>>717349496 Wrong actually. Atheism is the state of not believing in anything. That's a common misconception, but atheism in itself doesn't say that God doesn't exist. Atheism only holds the idea of neutrality. They don't believe in gods existence, but they don't believe that he doesn't exist either. Admittedly a lot of atheists in practice don't do this, but based on the basic definition of atheism, atheists have no burden of proof.
>>717349734 You gave me no arguments except wild speculations, stop wasting my time.
Even the most Atheistic historians will tell you Jesus existed and his crucifixion was a fact, it's not my problem that you're ignorant of these things.
I highly recommend you check out the debates of Dr. William Lane Craig on Youtube, he can provide you with excellent evidence for the Christian faith. He has steamrolled all the big Atheists in debates. (Except Dawkins who refused to debate twice, like the coward that he is)
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