The contridctions inherent in capitalism make the decline of the capitalist system inevitable. The system with it's goal of expotenitally growing profits, growth for the sake of growth in a sense, makes it unsustainable as well.
The issue is what will replace liberal capitalism. It could be Communism, but it's not inevitably Communism.
You're thinking of Stalin and his corruption, his heart growing dark and ruining the revolution that Lenin had set up. Also, there are also examples of Communism throughout history that weren't authoritarian, like the Spanish Anarchists in 1936. Anarcho-Communism. Also the fucking fascists throughout history that have killed an equal amount of people, if not worse.
>>717327131 Fascism is appearing in Europe because of marxist ideas and the SJW parade, plus the shitload of "immigrants" raping the ethnic population of europe and lowering average IQ, school scores and exponentially increasing the crime rate.
Communists are almost as stupid as Ancaps, and I sincerely hope on your behalf that you're just baiting really hard.
This whole "Communism is inevitable" started because of a misinterpretation of Dialectical Materialism (Diamat). The whole point is not that Communism is inevitable, but that Capitalist decline is inevitable. The obviously solution is to create a Communist society in which are free and equal, but this isn't guaranteed. We could end up destroying our planet before that happens.
That's a big underestimate of those who were killed, and had their lives ruined due to the Nazi Regime. Not only were people killed, but their families were destroyed, Germany was left a mess and people are still affected by it today.
>>717327246 Those that failed weren't because of Communism itself, but countries like the U.S who lead an economic war because they politically disagree with the far left.
>>717327447 Fascism is incompatible with Socialism. >inb4 Nazism The term Nazi DOES mean National Socialism, but that's in name only, their economics weren't close to socialism and claiming to be the champion of the working class like Hitler claimed to be was propaganda to get the workers on his side.
>>717327131 The communist who says, "no, that was not real communism, which lead to millions of deaths, my communism is different!" is exactly the type of person you don't want to lead or follow. That type of person is a tyrant, motivated by niave good intentions which would end in blood.
>>717327674 >That's a big underestimate of those who were killed, and had their lives ruined due to the Nazi Regime. Not only were people killed, but their families were destroyed, Germany was left a mess and people are still affected by it today.
About 100 million people has died from communism. Once again, "muh 6 million" ++ isn't even close.
>>717327131 Stalin didnt go "corrupt" read some fucking books that arent fucking propaganda. Yes, some of the things done un the Urss were poorly done, but Stalin wasnt a devil. I dont feel like expanding more, but if you have a questions about him, I'll gladly answer if I can.
>>717327131 I find it hard to believe communism will take the same form it has had in the past. I mean are we aiming for reindustrializing europe again so the european workers can control the production of goods? While the climate is being obliterated? I mwan even this wave of fascism is more like a charade of fascism, there's no peoples movement behind the organizations like in the 30's.
>>717327596 Mao and Stalin killed more people than Hitler.
>>717327668 Right and arguing for communism in the modern day while using a native american forest people as your example is ridiculous. Rojava is supported by western governments, it is not self sufficient. It has only been independent for a couple years.
>>717327131 Stalin didnt go "corrupt" read some fucking books that arent fucking propaganda. Yes, some of the things done un the Urss were poorly done, but Stalin wasnt a devil. I dont feel like expanding more, but if you have a questions about him, I'll gladly answer if I can
>>717327795 The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea calls itself a democracy. The name says it is, therefore it must be! That means all forms of democracy throughout history are like North Korea.
>>717328006 I know this is /b/ so trying actually deeply analyze the material reasons for why X and Y happened is typically discouraged and a re-hashed cookie cutter explanation is encouraged, but for something complicated like this, you should probably actually think about why the bureaucracy of the USSR solidified like it did into a power bloc.
>>717327944 Instead of being a retarded edgy faggot who supports communism to be edgy and different, maybe learn about the benefits of capitalism, how it actually works, and how it providedes the most wealth to the most people. Capitalism may be imperfect, but communism is just just flawed as fuck.
>>717327246 You fucking idiot do you even realise that communism is a stateless society? Communist advocate for a society and without state and classes and to get there there is a transitional phase called the dictatorship of the proletariat where the low class gets the power from bourgeois hands. Fucking read some books you idiot.
>>717328195 Yeah. I mean how will any form of social peace last when jobs are quickly dissapearing in a society where you need a job to survive. I'm thinking states will respond with more militarisation of society or with programs like basic income. And a proletariat without a workers movement will turn to religious like death cults like jihadists or trump for salvation
that's fucking funny dude, at the same time sad that you've bought into this preconceived notion that communism is automatically bad because a communist did a bad thing. Also, give examples that aren't cherry picked. Reason com isn't a credible source, they're already biased towards capitalism.
My friends, I need to ask you one thing. Crippled people, Old people, Mentally sick people, that can't contribute to society. Will you leave them to rot? That's what I would do. My country's population is 1/5 old people, that cant contribute and live off my taxes. They don't even contribute except to be lazy fucks.
>>717328576 >Anarchy would be even greater, but that's nearly impossible to implement.
Well I think we should see anarchy as something we create every day, rather than some utopian endpoint. We should always try to make our relationships with each other as non-hierarchical as possible, and the scopes of freedom as wide as possible
>>717326561 Communism will never work because Humanity is flawed. All communist governments have ultimately been dictatorships and the people under those governments suffered just the same as before. >meet the new boss, same as the old boss
>>717328707 Yes But I would accept my fate for the advance of society. Only those that actually saved up for their future are the smart. Old people should do stuff by themselves. Not live off the youth.
>>717328241 YEAH sure, please tell us how communism is more flawed than capitalism, you probably dont even know what communism is, judging by the fact you go with "communism killed 409999983828 quadrillion people" you dumb fuck. You actually believe an article with no fucking sources just because It pleases you. By the way, if communism is bad because It lead to some people's death, then your beloved capitalism is horrible too. If you want some examples, search information about the genocide in Indonesia or the War at Syria.
>>717328811 The point of syndicates and communes are that they are local... you will never find a "anarchy-state" or anarchyland, but probably instead locally governed communities that cooperate within a network
>>717328811 This is the same kind of argument that Americans make when they say America can't have socialized medicine but there are countries much larger than America that have functioning social medicine
I think you're just brainwashed by capitalism and are grasping at straws
>>717328964 I said they killed more than Hitler and I explicitly specified own countrymen.
>>717329048 >This is the same kind of argument that Americans make when they say America can't have socialized medicine but there are countries much larger than America that have functioning social medicine
Except for I'm actually right. You're naive as fuck and probably will grow out of this phase.
>>717329432 Because instead of voting, we would have direct democracy. Research some of this shit instead of just spewing what you hear from other people. Learn what democracy truly is, you can have voting and not have a democracy like the constitutional republic that is the United States.
>>717329584 All sides are receiving support by superpowers, of course they wouldn't be able to single handedly stand their ground against saudi money and nato airstrikes. Point is they've prevailed and where the first geound forces to defeat ISIS while the "powerful" capitalist west was shitting itself of fear. Communists can defend themselves, just ask stalin if you still don't believe me
Fun Fact I almost got kicked out of class in philosophy for backing up communism and saying how capitalism is flawed system. More schools just brainwash you to support big corporations and be slaves torwards them.
>>717329845 NATO isn't striking the Kurds. Air support vs, no air support is a huge difference. Stalin slaughtered his people. Your system is dysfunctional and weak when democratic, and the most oppressive in history when it has a strongman force it to work. It is a shit ideology and a shit system supported by the naive, the dumb, the young, the sheltered and the weak.
>>717330038 There's more to that story that you're leaving out.
>>717330163 Right except for commies have had their shot and it's been a fucking nightmare every time.
>>717330207 If it fails when it's tried or turns out as the worst governance in history, supporting it and expecting good results makes you idealistic. This is what happens when you read books but lack basic sense and life experience.
>>717330183 That's just plain false, Turkey(NATO member) is targeting the kurds through airstrikes. And I'm not a stalinist, I'm an anarchist. >out of arguments >the long awaitwd final resort of the liberal: >wuuhh communism wont woooooork you are a also a dumb child lol
>>717330268 >If anything they want to try and brain wash us into blindly supporting they State As seen with loans by banks that charge students with higher interest rates than they charge corporations. My uni literally is literally having its strings pulled by Suntrust: the financial aid office has "Suntrust" in gold letters above the booths.
>>717330508 So, a nightmare every time, huh? We could use an example maybe, tell us how the USSR was a nightmare yo everyone, or maybe we could use Cuba since its a living example of dotp, I'll ley you choose. I know what you are going to say anyways, its always the same propaganda.
>>717330508 What is idealistic is simply dismissing the system without studying why the Communist movement failed and descended into authoritarianism. A materialist (Communists) would look at the material conditions such as was the working class at the time capable of administrating the means of production? What was the military status of Russia or China and how would this have affected internal policy? Was the west intervening in a way to try and break apart the USSR? A materialist would also work at other historical examples that did show great promise.
A petty idealist (liberals) will just mindlessly say "human nature!" and be done with it.
Millions of deaths of their countrymen, gulags. You know, nightmarish aspects of a society.
>>717331028 NATO is a cohesive organization with command and leadership and official actions. The actions of individual members nations without going through NATO are not actions of NATO. My fucking dog could understand this.
>>717331178 >NATO is a cohesive organization with command and leadership and official actions. The actions of individual members nations without going through NATO are not actions of NATO. My fucking dog could understand this.
>>717331351 >"My ideas run the world and have brought the world unparalleled development and prosperity. Yours lead to failure and mass slaughter of one's one countrymen."
The exact same shit has been said towards the French, English, and American revolutionaries. From the point of view of the people of 1789, Feudalism has brought about righteousness, technology, development, and great Empire while Liberal Capitalism has brought about destruction, wars, great killings, and the guillotine.
>>717331178 So you mean the fights between the kulaks for the expropiation of their territory. You see, the kulaks wanted to keep all their priviliges ober the territory after the Revolution, this causes a really long and painful War against them to expropiate their private proporties. It also led to famine since a lot of countrymen fighted against the kulaks and couldnt raise their crops. About the gulags, be careful with propaganda against them, thet were the jail system of the USSR but yes, you could argue that they didnt have enough supplies to actually treat people nicely. But look at the jail system of pretty much any country in those days. Look at Guantanamo today...
Democracy is a form of mob rule. Collectivism is an ends justify the means form of "justice" when played out, excusing gross infringements on basic individual rights. Tyranny, be it from the state, a corporation, or your own neighbors, is reprehensible. The smallest minority is you, the individual. People are self interested, someone doesn't simply become a moral agent because they have a little fucking flag pinned to their lapel. Governments are nothing more than a monopoly of force, and bureaucrats are not going to live up to these pseudo altruistic ideals you parrot constantly. Wanna know something funny? Capitalism is literally the driving engine that had dragged millions of people out of poverty. The sweatshop nation's of the 1950's (think Asian tigers, South Korea, japan) are now first world nation's in a span of less than 50 years. If you actually understood technological innovation you'd also understand the vast majority comes from the private sector . I think it's funny how faux humanitarian lefties bash globalism, but globalism has literally provided a ladder for hundreds of millions of the world's poorest people to drag themselves out of poverty or subsistence agriculture. Authoritarian governments are now the predominant causes of famine in areas where food should actually be plentiful, given free markets weren't chilled by incompetent, arrogant, despotic regimes. I'm looking at you, Venezuela.
>>717331839 It's not NATO bombing the Kurds, it's just Turkey bombign them. The only country bombing the Kurds from the air is Turkey. No other NATO members are bombing the Kurds. You have literally nothing.
>>717331862 Everything's relative, communism has been the worst at oppression and death of its own people.
>>717331705 Depends on what country you're in, and even then, where in that country you're living. For instance just from where I'm from (the US, Wisconsin) wearing a shirt with a hammer and sickle will probably get you some weird or slightly uncomfortable looks but nothing big is going to come of it.
But if you did that in say a conservative school in Louisiana, I wouldn't be surprised if they made you turn the shirt inside-out.
>>717332178 Holy shit, my thread is big enough to get a spambot to post on it. I'm glad I am getting some form of discussion on this by the way, whether or not you agree I thank you guys a lot. Also, Happy New Year, Comrades!
>>717332147 >It's not NATO bombing the Kurds, it's just Turkey bombign them. The only country bombing the Kurds from the air is Turkey. No other NATO members are bombing the Kurds. You have literally nothing.
But the PKK is considered a Terrorist Org by NATO, which is in turn NATO supporting the Turks against the Kurds in Turkey.
US, Germany and other NATO powers are providing equipment to Turkey, which is in NATO, and large amounts of that equipment is then used against the Kurds (Either in Turkey or in Syria)
>>717326561 Communism is a system of control invented by the Jews to enslave the common man. My father lived in both the Third Reich and communist East Germany for many years. He told me the years of the Third Reich were the best years he's ever had and the communist years were the worst. The Third Reich helped everyone, no matter if rich or poor while Communism created a fake stigma for the poor to serve your rich government officials.
>>717332147 I feel like you're failing to grasp the point I'm trying to make.
Yeah, most attempts at it have failed horribly. But the same is true for Liberalism and our ideas of capitalism. In reality a radical and fundamental change is society is violent, bloody, and things can go wrong.
However, we have to look at precisely why the Russian and Chinese Revolutions failed like they did in order to learn from them.
For example, it's well known from a Marxist point of view that society goes through stages of development. In both the Russian and Chinese societies which were still effectively feudal, they did not have a proper phase of capitalist development. Their working class were still mostly illiterate, half-hungry, peasant folk that had little technical expertise outside of farming. Of course Socialism will not work under these conditions, the workers don't know how to operate the means of production! And as history shows us, a more literate and technically-advanced work force can more easily safe guard against tyranny, since they're often more educated and therefore intelligent.
And this is just scratching the surface of by the Russian Revolution fall apart like it did.
>>717326561 Considering only the batshit crazy nations of the world still even try to seriously be "communist" probably not for a long time. Long enough for people to forget the lessons of the currently recent past at least.
Probably won't be actual communism though, just a bunch of faggoty greed filled power hungry tyrants claiming to be communist appropriating the farmer's beds for the "revolution" or some bullshit like that.
>>717332724 Either way, capitalism is awful and oppressive. Either way, fascism is awful and oppressive Either way, state socialism is awful and oppressive What do these all have in common? The presence of a central state.
>>717332827 NATO is actually bombing ISIS, Turkey is bombing the Kurds with NATO support. The point is that the Kurds are being propped up and would collapse without it.
>>717332738 Tens of millions of domestic deaths is something you're really downplaying. There are multiple reasons for everything, but criticizing an ideology because it has led to millions upon millions of domestic deaths is perfectly reasonable.
>>717332738 >Of course Socialism will not work under these conditions, the workers don't know how to operate the means of production!
Except they did seize and self manage factories under control of workers councils, Lenin destroyed all of this because it didn't fit his ideological view of how the revolution would happen. If your attempts of understanding the failures of the russian revolution are viewed under the same ideological lense as the powers that crushed it, then you are doomed to repeat their failures
>>717333110 >"Except they did seize and self manage factories under control of workers councils,"
Barely, and even then it was horribly inefficient. Lenin's NEP in my opinion a much better policy that could've brought Russia some proper capital development before transitioning over to actual Socialism. Of course then you had Stalin step in to the commanding role and things kind of just went from there.
>>717333245 A left wing government does not mean Communism. I'm not sure I'd even consider Liberalism as properly left wing.
>>717333250 That was the whole reason for that argument. Rojava was given as an example of communist success, but it is not self sufficient by any means, it is being propped up. Read the comments fuckhole.
>>717333215 The YPG are getting a ton of support and airstrikes against their enemies.
The statement "NATO is bombing X" applies far more to ISIS than the Kurds.
>>717333522 I support the workers owning and controlling the means of production (Socialism). I also advocate for a stateless and classless society (Communism).
However, I'm extremely anti-idealist. I recognize that Socialism in Russia by 1917 was unrealistic. Uneducated peasants can't control the economy themselves. Scientists, technicians, and literate industrial workers can though.
>>717333422 It's still an example of communist success, and they're not by any means simply being "propped up". They've been the most capable ground force to counter the military advancements of the Islamic State, and all sides they fight receive a tremendous amount of external support.
>>717333744 >However, I'm extremely anti-idealist. I recognize that Socialism in Russia by 1917 was unrealistic. Uneducated peasants can't control the economy themselves. Scientists, technicians, and literate industrial workers can though.
>>717333778 They have been the most capable ground froce because they're getting a ton of support, have US troops and SF fighting for them and dozens of nations bombing their enemies, the US bombing their enemies actively in their battles.
Petty commies Funny to see such small fags thinking they will make a utopia by revolution. Hahaha, you're all neckbearded fags that got an unfair life and cry on the interwebs about it. And even if you try to make a communist uprise, you'll be shut down 1 whoop. Fucking pathetic waste of human thought.
>>717334752 The labeling of it is irrelevant to the reality in this context. The reality being that Kurds are receiving immense support against their enemies and their enemies are being subject to far more bombing than they are.
>believes in a world free of money >free of social heirarchy >free of any government >only the workers own the production means >everyone lives according to his needs and abilities >no private property >be me >be part of the human species >we naturally form heirarchies >we like excess >communiggers think we can defy that programming >we ask for proof >all they have to show for it is Cold War, North Korea, gulags, and other historical travesties that didn't even live up to true Marxist communism >only remotely communist nation was the free territory of Ukraine >didn't even last five years >i swear guiz, commnism worx!1!1! Also vaccines give autism, chemtrails poison us, the earth is flat, and we must wear tinfoil to protect against aliens and mass surveilance >puts on aluminum foil instead >everyone laughs >"hey! Communism will work! We are enlightened and you're all sheeple and I'm trying to help you" >people laugh even harder >communigger wonders why and walks away in rancorous shame Only the most idiotic of idealists believe in communism, you practically have to be psychotic to accept it.
>>717335181 Peep this: Structures can exist that prevent the development of hierarchy. Non hierarchal "primitive" societies and anarchist groups are experts at this. That is if your theory of human nature is correct in the first place
>>717335514 If by "primitive," you mean primitive communist factions then of course everyone in the echo chamber will follow the doctrine, same for anarchists. What I stated however is not a theory, but a fact in that humans are naturally greedy, irrational, and socially structured people. Communism therefore cannot work, because these tendencies in human nature will corrupt and destroy it before it could even come to fruition.
>>717336480 It speaks for itself anon, even kids at young ages form heirarchies. Keep in mind, you're the flat earther, the one who has little credibility while making erroneous claims, so you're gonna need some serious magic of some kind if you expect anyone reasonably logical and intelligent to actually believe communism is remotely feasible.
LUL, and you think communism just pops up one day and then just is? It starts somewhere and when the regressive left are fearmongering people into one way of thinking I'd say that's the way to communism
>>717338724 >>just believe the picture ok? you came up with this on your own I just agree with the guy: human nature is not something fixed for eternity. Our behavior and personnality is shaped by our social and economical environnement this is basic sociology
>>717338859 Communism is equivalent to: >no really, I swear the earth is flat. Gravity? That's what you were brainwashed to believe. Here, look at this not at all undoctored photo of earth from space from a shady source conveniently proving me right. Please don't reproduce, there's enough wackos out there.
>>717339120 Capitalism is equivalent to : >no really, I swear the earth is flat. Gravity? That's what you were brainwashed to believe. Here, look at this not at all undoctored photo of earth from space from a shady source conveniently proving me right
>>717339120 So... Communism, a political and economic theory, is equivalent to denying a scientific fact? What the fuck are you even talking about? How did you think this would be a good argument?
Instead of attacking us personally and then saying we're equivalent to flat earthers isn't an argument. Actually address us for our beliefs, arguments and concerns. Otherwise we won't take you seriously.
>>717338928 Yet there are still primal aspects of humanity that are ingrained. We are ingrained with the desire to fuck, we are ingrained with the fear of being alone, and we are ingrained to look out for ourselves. Not everyone wants to live in a land without a state, or money, or social class. When that somebody finds other somebodys who feel the same, they take over. It's more natural to humans to live unrestricted by an ideology like communism and doing what they please in spite of the law while others prefer a state to protect them from these people. Even animals can't help but form structures that contradrict communism, and no amount of communist nurture will cure that nature.
>>717339699 We attack you personally because you refuse to listen to reason and logic that refutes your daintily constructed socio-economic theory, much like a flat earther who denies a round earth, likening you to lunatics who know fuck all about anything but communism. Communism has never succeeded since inception, so you can't expect people to believe in something that has, and will never work.
>>717339912 >Even animals can't help but form structures that contradrict communism yes but they are animals that the point of humanism to aknowledge that we human can form other social structure and we are not bound by genetic to act like anst or by material conditions to act like wolves >We are ingrained with the desire to fuck, we are ingrained with the fear of being alone, and we are ingrained to look out for ourselves. exactly and the fact that a majority of people want to reproduce, meet and live with other people and be safe is the reason why in theory communism will prevail because the proletarian masses are denied this right of well being by exploiting classes. >It's more natural to humans to live unrestricted by an ideology And the restriction of the peoples set by the ideology of capitalism will cause it's collapsing in marxist theory
>>717340369 >We attack you personally because you refuse to listen to reason and logic what reason and what logic all I've seenin this thread is ab nominem attack, >dude it never workeb but you'll say that it wasn't real socilism amiright and rant about flat earth
>>717340369 I haven't refused to listen, infact I am open to change, but I haven't been brought up with an argument that convinces me, hence the entire fucking point of the thread.You're the only one that has refused to address the other side's arguments. We will treat you how you treat us. If you want to play the "Fuck you" game and the "You're like a flat earther" then we will point you out on your ignorance and your apparent lack of understanding and maturity.
>>717341076 That's not evidence, it's the same argument we have heard over and over again and we already have addressed it. It has been successful for periods of time yes, it doesn't fail in it of itself however. It's because of the U.S that most of these countries have failed, with their economic wars they wage when they find a country that isn't profitable.
That and Stalin let his heart grow dark, ruined the revolution Lenin had set up. There are versions of communism that isn't authoritarian, however. For example, Libertarian Socialism or Anarcho-Communism. You should look into this stuff and learn about where we are coming from.
>>717340898 Mature people don't believe in communism anon, they accept all political theories are flawed and choose one that doesn't have the most deficits, and communism is loaded with the most deficits.
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