>>699156555 Why? How is it preferable to capitalism? Until resources are included in our value system and scarcity driven consumption is gone, we will not have a sustianible society. Communism can suck my shit along with capitalism
>>699157435 Not without an authoritarian regime to inforce fair play, so the state has power over citizens. I'm not suggesting a free for all, but a transformation into a resource based value system, where people can live their own life's and a sustainable equalitarian lifestyle is incentivized rather than forced.
>>699157927 Actually since the science is solid that we're frankly going to go extinct if we continue with this unsustainable system, no, Most of the country would realize we need to change drastically--or die.
If you want to join the small percentage that would engage that majority and hope to win, then you've watched too many Chuck Norris movies.
>>699157435 You know that has never worked and will never work, largely due to human nature. Why am I going to put in all the effort to become a doctor when I can make just as much money as a Janitor? Who will deliver pizza in this communist state? Do you not understand that communism is what caused the cultural shift in Russia that has created the culture of coruptiin they have had for the last 30-40 years? And you want that here? You talk of sustainability, but look at commnist China and its never ending flow of toxic waste. Capitalism is what is driving "green" energy. We vote with our wallets more than anything else. Want to go to Mars? start telling companies that and someone will figure out how to make it happen. You dont get innovation on thay scale with commnism.
>>699158093 Maybe it would have been economically sustianible if capitalism could cooperate with other systems. Too bad economical sustianible isn't ecologically sustainable. The market paradigm and it's scarcity driven consumption is the real cancer.
>>699158206 Well I'm not advocating staying like we are. I'm advocating radical change, and throwing markets in the trash where they belong. Communism is still keeping the worst parts of capitalism in tact. It's trying to control capitalism.
>>699158458 is not all about money my friend. communism has never been implemented in any country ever (complete abolition of private property) capitalism and neoliberalism will not last more than 20 years. it is clear that is not the way forward.
>>699158869 so in other words you ignore what doesnt fit your narative because it makes a good point and you might have to admit to being wrong. Read "The Road to Serfdom" by Hyeck. He basically outlines how capitalism must have Socialist undertones in order to function (public schools, roads) and that its the responsibility of the goverment to prevent any one company from stiflign competition. With the current push for corporat responsibility it seems to me that companies are doingn their best to maketheir workers happy because their customers demand it.
>>699159244 How are we such a pivotal and important global power that is vital to your agenda to spread communism when we are among the most capitalistic countries out there? How on earth can you say communism is better, when you clearly admit our strength as a global power and we are capitalistic to the bone?
Thats like saying you want everyone to be great at chess, so you're going to talk to the greatest players out there and convince them to play like shit.
Communism does nothing to hinder the rapid destruction of the natural systems we depend on because it is anthropocentric and considers the needs of the people and not the earth that supports us. We need to work within the confines of the natural world, as defined by science or we will continue to consume at an unstutainable level. That's why I want a system where the abundance of a resource, and the causal effects of allocation determine its value.
>>699159459 oh really? Tell me, why are Tesla cars so expensive, yet popular? For that matter why is every car maker putting out an electric or hybrid car? Why are solar panels appearing on the tops of homes? Is it by the graciousness of the hearts of our leaders or because people are buying them? "Communists" are all people who are too lazy to work and want to blame that mythical 1%...who own all the media companies that promote comminism.
Communism is an economic system defined as "the workers own the means of production."
It is a form of collectivism, where certain resources are redistributed from individuals to the collective. In the case of communism, these resources are "the means of production."
It is a real world economic implementation of Marxism ideology, which advocates "From those according to their ability, to those according to their needs."
So, Communism is basically taking away companies, corporations, and factories from those who had the skill and ability to create them, and giving those resources to the workers, people who did not have the skill and ability to create production. How long do you think a society will last when it's infrastructure is run by those who do not know how to run it?
You can look to historical examples for an answer.
>>699160944 >So, Communism is basically taking away companies, corporations, and factories from those who had the skill and ability to create them, and giving those resources to the workers, people who did not have the skill and ability to create production.
>>699160916 Your argument is based solely on a subjective notion that communism is "better" which you have even admitted is not true by your preference of a capitalistic country over all other countries. You are so logically fallacious and you can't even see it.
>>699161158 No sir. The desire to control human beings as if they were a machine to be driven is a mental illness. Your paranoid obsession with 'survival of the species' is just as moronic as these doomsday preppers. You act as though it would be so bad if humans went extinct which makes me question whether or not youre some sort of religious nut, in which case you need not worry about survival because your god will decide for you anyways.
>>699160616 Nah dude, there is plenty of room for a population double to have a better standard of living than we do. All we need to do is get rid of scarcity driven consumption, smart population control instead of a natural crash. We need to take care of what we have, we have no way to produce biotic resources on Mars, it would probably cost more to get there and we aren't biologically capable of landing on Mars after mircogravity for so long. So it's science fiction, we find a way to take care of what we got now or we will never get to Mars. Communism is incentivized overexpoltiation, just like capitalism.
>>699160654 hahaha a little clueless pale kid with no idea of how the world works talking about solar panels and laziness. poverty is an abstraction except for the people that has suffered from it. come back when you understand that and when you have read about salvador allende and all the smaller countries the US had bullied for over 70 years just to drain its natural resources. la humanidad ya caminará sobre las grandes alamedas; y va a ser nuestra(!) generación la que va a gobernar esta primers mitad del nuevo siglo.
>>699156555 Anarcho Communism or Vanguard Communism? If the latter youre retarded and it wont work, if the former it already exists anyway as it is naturally existing within reality in which case you are either in harmony with it or youre not just as with nature in general.
>>699159960 Take a look at the unemployment rate, the poverty rate, criminality rate, development index, the education rate and the happiness index of the USA. And than take a look at some more socialistic countries like denmark or norway.
In fact the poverty rate is increasing over the past years, as direct consequences of the capitalism. Rich people stay rich, poor people stay poor, if you are poor you won't get rich.
While socialism says that everyone gets what he works for. People who work more will get what they deserve. If you work twice as hard as someone else you will get twice the money.
Isn't that what all you americans want? So why stay with this capitalism which destroys your society more and more, and don't even try to get a little bit socialist.
The most funny thing about this is, that the poor people are the most capitalistic, but they are the once who suffer the most because of it.
And the argument that the USA is a great economical power is shit, you might have big companies, but the average american is way poorer than for example in denmark, which is, surprise, way more socialistic.
>>699162519 Christ you about gave me a heart attack, throwing around words like communism, that word might as well be like gay nowadays, I prefer using syndicalist or libertarian left but hey whatever floats your boat, I agree with alot of communist ideology myself in terms of seeing reality as an evolutionary process although I wouldnt necessarily see capitalism as a necessary step in the process from so called primitivist communism to that with civilization.
>>699162409 I'm not advocating for any kind of business to do anything. I'm pretty much advocating for a natural law/ resource based economy, similar to the one proposed by the zeitgeist movement. Carrying capacity degrades after overshoot, that's a fact of life we now have to deal with. Wtf is going to Mars going to do to feed people? Literally no reason to waste resources getting to a place that cannot support human life, it makes no sense to be hopeful for science fiction, we have what we have and until we can sustain ourselves with that we will never sustain a space faring civilization, space seems like hell to me anyways. What kind of sick fuck wants humans to live with the constant sensation of falling, only artificial light, and none of our natural heritage. Sounds gay. Mars has nothing to offer that we don't have in abundance.
>>699160356 yes absolutely agree. the problem is the commodification of labor power and the need to earn wages in order to pay for the right to live - this translates into a consumptive economy whether it be 'communist' or capitalist. no communist country on earth has achieved this nor will it because they are states. anarchism leads to the answers.
>>699160650 you are stuck in the past, thinking of economies and power in terms of nation states. the economies have globalized.
>>699160944 this is bolshevik reading of marxism. its the kind that you see in most communist states. you take managerial control away from private owners and give it to government bureaucrats, basically.
Libertarian left isnt really good either though as you need a left and a right to exist, they represent different states of being that a society has to be in at certain stages of its being, fall, winter, spring, summer, etc. sometimes you can be more liberal and at other times you have to be conservative.
>>699159884 You're full of it. He brought up a good point. One you're yet to counter and instead are just brushing it under the rug.
The biggest flaw with communism is the expectation that each individual will put aside what's best for themselves to further the greater good. You're asking a person to go against their very nature.
Example. A doctor spends 10 years in school. Under communism he gets the same resource share as a high school drop out. Because collectively they all own the work. This means that individuals game the system and aim for the lowest rung. Why innovate when everyone is equal? What is motivation?
>>699163447 every socialist will tell you that capitalism was required for development, but over a long term it will just hurt society. so yeah scandinavia developed through capitalism, and thats fine and was necessary, but that doesn't mean that it is required to stay with it. It's like saying you need to be breast feeded for your whole life because this was what you needed as a new born child
>>699164059 I've addressed this. Those wishing to have a "civil war" would be massively outnumbered by the populace who would understand the need to go to a collective system.
If you really want to be martyrs for a frankly 18th century cause, that's your failing. I would hope to avoid violence, but often that kind of toxic indoctrination breeds that kind of dangerous stubborn characteristics based more on instinct than reason.
>>699163922 nice graphic, but the creator of it (you?) doesn't understand socialism like it is intended to be. Everyone (who is willing to work) will get a work he is good in, and gets enough to live. Also if you work more you will get more. Thats basically socialism
>>699164168 Well obviously I get what youre saying is true in terms of capitalism but the conservatives are actually more important than the liberals if you really think about it because without a solid foundation of freedom you cant insure lasting progression. If you cant own guns youre not free, if you cant speak your mind because youve offended someone then youre not free, if your collective cant defend itself from endless immigration from other cultures then it's not free, it'd be nice if more anarchists would actually realize stuff like this. There are times for a harvest and there are times to protect and grow the crops.
>>699164421 Communism started in the 18th century too, you retard. Communism only spreads by the sword because anyone with an IQ over 33 knows collectivism and liberty cannot coexist. I hope you fight better than you logic, because you're going to need to. I know you don't because you are a cunt.
>>699164186 you have a faulty understanding of communism as it is actually practiced. under state communism doctors still earn more than the high school drop out. its just that the state owns the hospital where the doctor works and the farm/factory that the high school drop out works.
some of the profit of both medicine and farm/factory work is used to pay for the schools and roads. except its not out of taxes, its out of state profit, which are essentially the same thing.
state communism is a lot like capitalism in developed countries and people dont really realize this.
what makes a country communist is not the distribution of resources but the relationship of the workers to the means of production. do workers work for the publicly-owned enterprise and thus 'own' the means of their production, or are they hired by a private firm?
state communism is more like a centralization of business, while capitalism allows for monopolization and competition between private (corporate) entities.
What you dumb niggers don't realize is there has to be a balance of power between the elite, the government, and the working people. Any extreme, be it communism, anarchy, or oligarchy all have one group in power. None of these systems are realistic or sustainable.
The only answer is to have a system of checks and balances. Large corporations need to be regulated. Corporations need to be seperate from the government. The people need to have a democratic system. A perfect balance is the only viable option.
>>699165002 not OP, but i would go with anarcho communism/syndicalism. i dont think that state communism is much different from state capitalism. it does little to address the alienation of the worker or the dominating power of commodities over the mediation of everyday life. what is so different between state communism and capitalism then?
maybe in the 1800's there would be a difference, but with the democratic-socialist countries of the developed world? (yes, US included, look at it in historical context). there is little difference between the 'capitalist' and state communist systems today.
so, anarcho communist / syndicalist. escaping the commodification of labor power and the alienation of the worker from their species being has not been realized under any communist government system.
>>699165040 That's not true communism. That a capitalistic version. To account for man's inherent greed.
Also why would I want the state to Conte the means of production vs a corporation. They are both just people. The asumptio is that this nebulous state entity would be working for my best interest. However this is never the case. Look at us presidency. He should be working for my benefit. But I've been fucked for the last 8 years.
>>699165134 We need something to take our minds off that for a few decades, frankly. Something to distract us into creating a common good, instead of being burnt out trying to fix what we can't at the moment. Time to most past basic petty grievances and focus on a bigger picture: the survival of our species.
>>699165283 Apparently you don't know your own history. Marx didn't start communism, you little queen. It's ideals were originally penned by the League of Just Men, who eventually became the original Bavarian Illuminati. Get your nose out of your college professor's asshole, you little dip shit. You are learning nothing but what you are spoon fed.
>>699165717 We are pressed for time and going to Mars will just degrade our avalible resources further, wasting resources on such a thing is not possible at this time. We need to solidify around building s better future, a future where Mars is a viable option.
>>699165512 what i do not understand is that you want anarchism mixed into everything, because anarchism usually plays out into lynch mobs and seeing all those crazy SJW in USA and other countries you d be in for one hell of a ride
>>699164053 >rich? turn the knob of a few institutions in the US and you are as poor as fuck in less than 5 years. >happy? (are you really?) at the cost of what? of billions of people suffering everywhere else in the world. look out of your window right now. that's how less than 5% of the world looks like.
your voting power gives you a big responsibility. you should read more, learn more languages, debate. do not remain hipnotizad with media and 'augmented reality' toys. >augmented reality please.
>>699156920 You are a fucking idiot. Shut the fuck up about communism. You're too retarded to understand how stupid of an idea that is, so keep your opinion to yourself, dumbass. It's stupid hipster cunts like you that are ruining the US with uneducated opinions based on their feelings. Kys.
>>699166409 capitalism rewards those who produce and rewards greater those who own the means of production. those who own the means of production have more power in society. marx was bent on ending that unequal distribution of power which he saw divided between two big classes of people, the proletariat (workers) and the capitalists (owners)
>>699166488 All systems have their flaws. The free market system we were founded on was the only one offering equal opportunity. Not the false and destructive idea of equality in result. Liberty is America's history, and it's in our blood. The cancer is collectivism in all it's forms.
>>699166793 >equal oppurtunity All my sides. I thought you were trying to discuss alternatives to capitalism/communism . If you think scarcity driven consumption will ever be sustainable you're a retard, don't talk to me.
>>699166279 Even if they dont listen i wont stop trying, because trying and failing is still better than doing nothing. And maybe someone will think about it and gets his own opinion about it, no matte what opinion, als long as it is self made its a step towards an enlighted society, and thats the ultimate goal
In capitalism you have an idea or product whose value is determined by what another person feels it is worth. Trade happens and commodities change hands. If you have no commodity. You are poor. Labor is a commodity. That is under pure unregulated capitalism which never happens.
What I'm saying is under pure communism only people who really wanted to be doctors would. Today most people do it for the cash. There would still be doctors but skill level would decrease as well as applicants.
Are you still In grade school? this is basic supply demand.
>>699164515 >Every knows what poverty is. you might have an idea of what it is but you certainly don't know what it is. innovations only happens with incentives its true. but the motivation and the real changes (innovative) come from the society and the people, not from the ideas of corporate heads. >Why make a better car if I get nothing from it? its not all about cars mate. you address the question to an individualistic point of view: 'I get nothing from it'. the first person is not 'me' but 'us'.
>>699166724 you know socialism doesn't want to take the money from the state, the idea is that those who get too much give some too those who are currently under payed.
And don't tell me its stealing, because those people have more money than they could ever need, while others who work as hard as them, or even harder, have nothing. Its all about that everyone gets what he deserves to get, and not about some getting more because they had the luck to be born filthy rich
>>699166853 State SUBSIDIZED is not a good example. Your getting a service where everyone foots the bill. Universal health care despoportionally benefit the chronically sick and those who fail to take care of themselves. It incentives poor lifestyles.
Please support this website by donating Bitcoins to 16mKtbZiwW52BLkibtCr8jUg2KVUMTxVQ5 If a post contains copyrighted or illegal content, please click on that post's [Report] button and fill out a post removal request
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows an archive of their content. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.