>>680142311 It's not a crazy vegetable lifestyle. I can assume you think it's crazy due to the lifestyle it self being 'out of the norm' for regular people's eating habits. As mentioned in another thread, slavery used to be the norm, but that was changed after a good amount of time.
>>680142529 You're considered crazy because, you vegans tend to virtue signal so much it becomes a fucking a stereotype. Not to mention when someone chooses not to follow your lifestyle you get into a fit of rage about it.
>>680142756 Puns don't work like that my friend. I do understand where you are coming from, and yes I admit, it is a common stereotype. But, just like all other stereotypes in society, it's not great to assume the latter without considering the individual first. The main reason why we go in such a state of rage, from my opinion, is that people are so completely oblivious to what happens in the dairy and meat industry. There's probably some surveys out there detailing how many people don't know where their 'meat' comes from etc. I guess if people knew and made their decision from there, then that's all I can do.
>>680143187 So you are exactly the same, "people are so oblivious to what happens in the dairy and meat industry"
You're being stereotypical as well.
Most people in this day and age know exactly what goes on in the big meat and dairy industries in places like the US.
I know where my meat and dairy comes from, yet a lot of vegans still constantly lose their shit all over youtube, facebook, and other types of social media over how us non-vegas are killers and murderers and basically worse than Hitler.
>>680143122 That's a harsh statement to make but I do see your viewpoint. However, did you forget all the protests the LGBT community has made for the many years in history against the straight gendered-minded community? Everyone has to start somewhere, and going against the common ideals of society is the first step. Just like racism and LGBT and more.
>>680143460 I could say the same for you. As you mentioned, you do know where your products come from, but that doesn't mean everyone else knows. I'm just stating the truth, I have no bias to that statement. Just ask a 5 year old where his roast comes from as an example.
>>680143787 I guess since we are dealing with a species that can't communicate or show any major signs towards humans. Things must be taken another step further just to exemplify what's happening e.g. to give a voice.
>>680143861 It was an example as I stated, if they knew about where these things come from then I am sure they can understand. A compassionate parent isn't going to force a 5 year old to eat an animal if they didn't want to. But I can easily see the parent ignoring it, simply because they are 5.
>>680144414 >So you're telling me plants have a nervous system now?
Nice strawman logical fallacy. You automatically fail.
But let me humor you.
Plants do "feel pain" in a sense. First of all ask yourself, what is pain? And then read this:
"Few moments evoke a sense of summer like catching a whiff of freshly cut grass. For many people, it's a pleasant sign that warmer temperatures are here to stay. For the grass, however, this scent signals an entirely different story.
The smell we associate with freshly cut grass is actually a chemical distress call, one used by plants to beg nearby critters to save them from attack (usually it's an affront by insects, but in this case, it's lawnmower blades). After all, when danger strikes -- whether it's landscaping equipment or a hungry caterpillar -- plants can't lift their roots and run. They must fight where they stand."
"To protect themselves, plants employ a volley of molecular responses. These chemical communications can be used to poison an enemy, alert surrounding plants to potential dangers or attract helpful insects to perform needed services. Sometimes, a plant's molecular defense plays double-duty. For example, plants that produce caffeine use the chemical as self-defense, but it also gives bees a caffeine buzz. The caffeinated bees treat the plant like it's the corner coffee shop, returning again and again and leaving their pollination services as payment."
"According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. Using a laser-powered microphone, researchers have picked up sound waves produced by plants releasing gases when cut or injured. Although not audible to the human ear, the secret voices of plants have revealed that cucumbers scream when they are sick, and flowers whine when their leaves are cut."
Why do humans have similar long digestive tracts to herbivores, whereas carnivores have short digestive systems?
How come we have carbohydrate digestive enzymes and not meat figestsing enzymes?
I did an experiment where I did a vegan diet for a month and lost all sorts of weight, I ate my regular 2700 calories of food, but only vegan food, so I wasn't in a caloric deficit.
I wasn't fat, but I did have a little pot belly from bulking during weight training and I lost all types of fat.
The reason I changed was because my ass would literally bleed from all of the meat and supplements I was consuming and I realised I can get enough protein from plant sources (a lot of proteib supplements are derived from plants anyway)
And I haven't had a problem with my cholestorol or shitting since I have continued my vegan diet, nor have I lost any muscle.
Now I believe calories aren't just calorie and meat has more weight gaining effects even if its within the same caloric range.
The way I see it, meat isn't bad to eat. However I think even though we can live on something doesn't necessarily mean it's good for our health. During hardh climates our ancestors would hunt to put on a bit more fat to maintain body temperature and digest extra fat when needed.
I would like you all to experiment before actually stating if veganism is bad, please.
>>680145012 Nice google search and using the first results. Maybe consider a proper scientific peer reviewed article or journal and not just some copy pasta from howstuffworks etc etc. Oh and nice catch on the fallacy, you got me there but resulting to a fallacy for your victory is such undergrad like lmao.
>>680145012 So let's say that plants feel pain in the same way that animals do. Livestock eat shittons of plants, so just bypassing the livestock and eating plants directly reduces the amount of suffering involved
I actually feel shit when I ate meat, dairy or cereals. So I started eating a lot more fruit and veg and cut down my meat to nothing and now i'm an unintentional full blown vegan and I always feel great throughout the day.
I then hope you're not a hypocrite and practice a way to minimize suffering in the world by not killing insects, but always letting them go outside into nature. Also, if you have a vermin infestation you hopefully change houses. And dont you dare kill a mosquito or a tick.
>>680145858 Sure livestock kill plants anyway, but there wouldn't be millions of them if we didn't keep breeding them for meat. And yeah I try to avoid causing harm when it's practicable, I never claimed I'm some ghandi angel, but not eating meat is really fucking easy, so I don't. If animals are threatening my health and safety then sure I'll kill them
>>680143528 Yeah youd be pretty mad if people broke into yojr home dragged you onto the streets and beat you and your friends in public. Some to death and then where told it was ok becausenyou werent technically a person.
Id be a little bitter i guess i get where they come from
>>680145496 And now you put it on me to support my argument when clearly you can't support yours, oh the irony. A shame isn't it fellow anon. However, a quick search and you'll be able to find amounts of journals that put off your ideology of thinking. Considering I am going to bed, I won't go to the effort to copy and paste google's first search results, I will leave it up to you to continue your investigation if you choose to do so.
You failed to read everything I wrote. First off, I didn't become vegan for the benefit of animals but rather the benefit of my own health. It's just a plus now I don't need to hurt animals.
You can hit me with all this "evidence" industry bullshit, but until you wctually try a vegan diet you can't really have a say.
Being heavily into bodybuilding I thought I "ate clean" but apparantly according to my cholesterol results after being admitted to hospital from a heart attack, I was told my cholesterol levels were above the norm and my insides were full of plaque.
Immediately I changed my diet, cut out all the dairy and meat and resorted to natural sources and my cholesterol levels have been fine and as a plus I have lost tons of fat while maintaining what I had as a muscle. (I did lose a bit of muscle after I was admitted to hospital though as I was recovering)
But I am the same size as I was, leaner with better test results.
All i'm saying is physically experiment with your diet before trying to debunk peoples information with non credible industry resources
>>680141850 > side chewing jaw > small jaw opening, easily dislocated > sweats through pores > no claws > flat teeth (inb4 canines...you have trouble biting through tape son) > no protein enzymes in mouth > can get build up in arteries from cholesterol > ph stomach 4-5 > long gi tract > no instinct to kill animals > eating loads of it causes health problems > have instinct to eat non animals >slow > has to get vit c from diet
Did you leave your education when primary school stopped?
>>680148485 heya, you need 100g carbs daily brain to function bla bla, i dont understand satire / idioticy on the internet and just try to state raw facts onto stupid statements which makes me a better human and smarter than meat eaters. Hey vegan, let me guess you fit into the stereotype of being extremely skinny and social out cast or really fat from devouring just fries all day
>>680147875 >because that isnt what he is saying It literally is. Go watch the video.
>if you could live a life without causing suffering when there is no need to do so, as well as cutting out an industry which is destroying our planet why wouldnt you You cannot live a life without causing suffering to something or other. It's the basic principle of the universe.
You can minimize it though, to an extent. And we have. I support the fact that "meat farms" should have better sanitation, the animals should live a much better quality of life, and they should be killed quickly and humanely. Minimize the suffering.
The real problem why that's mostly not the case is human overpopulation.
>people are living morally superior to me, im gonna call them high horse
That's their opinion.
>EVERY FUCKING THREAD!! WHY DO ADULTS SOMEHOW NOW THINK PLANTS CAN SUFFER. Im so fucking sick of hearing "PLANTS DOE!"
They can feel pain. And since suffering is defined as "the state of undergoing pain, distress or hardship", plants can, BY DEFINITION, suffer. Read the link.
>even if they could feel, why does that justify you killing animals? Consistency and non-hypocrisy.
>so plants react, this is not news to us, dont be so thick. See above.
No i don't. But that doesn't mean we don't have the instinct, that means we have adapted to the world as it is. We can go down to the shop and buy 200kg of meat if that is what we want. But what about indigenous people in, let's say in the rainforest in Brazil. Why do they hunt for food and clothe? Seems like a stupid idea if they aren't having the urge too.
>>animals are better than humans >meat-eaters, which are humans, eat animals >vegans, which are humans, don't eat animals >animals eat animals >hence, as logic states, eating animals is NOT the reason why animals are better than humans. So eating animals has nothing to do with the entire argument, with both vegans and meat-eaters "just as bad".
Brilliant. Vegans finally begin to see the light. They aren't superior in any way.
If humans were strictly vegetarians the muscle connecting the jaw to the top of your head would be much larger. The size of the brain would not have the room to grow to the size it is, and humans likely would never have acheived much more intelligence than the great apes.
Actually, I have the urge to bite the thighs of the cow and rip pieces of it out, chew on the meat and swallow. Unfortunately, I don't own a farm (or any animals for that matter) and doing so would be highly unhygienic, not to mention a highly messy affair.
>>680149594 Only because I know that raw meat contains parasites and pathogens.
For the same reason that I never have the instinct to eat poisonous mushrooms or raw sewage, because I know it's bad for me, hence why I must do that one thing that I can do that a dog cannot - use tools.
Also, my dog does not chase any animals, because I have conditioned him from birth to not be violent. Perhaps this explains why I too do not feel the need to eat rats raw like some kind of degenerate
A trained dog has their instincts depressed, but they haven't learned that themselves like we have, we do it for them. A wild dog though... If we we're on the edge of life, dying from hunger and stood before a cow, don't you think we would jump that fucker in a heartbeat?
>>680149630 They hunt for survival. The difference between them and us is that we have plenty of non-animal foods available to us and we don't need animal products in our diets to survive, we merely eat them because they taste nice
>>680150196 "Dogs ARE very adaptable, but just because they can survive on an omnivorous diet does not mean it is the best diet for them. The assumption that dogs are natural omnivores remains to be proven, whereas the truth about dogs being natural carnivores is very well-supported by the evidence available to us."
>>680150004 In theory they could live of the land. But they still celebrate and have a feast when they capture animals. Tribesmen go for hunts almost daily, but still: >At least 80% of the developed world’s food originated in the tropical rainforest. Its bountiful gifts to the world include fruits like avocados, coconuts, figs, oranges, lemons, grapefruit, bananas, guavas, pineapples, mangos and tomatoes; vegetables including corn, potatoes, rice, winter squash and yams; spices like black pepper, cayenne, chocolate, cinnamon, cloves, ginger, sugar cane, tumeric, coffee and vanilla and nuts including Brazil nuts and cashews. At least 3000 fruits are found in the rainforests; of these, only 200 are now in use in the Western World. The Indians of the rainforest use over 2,000.
>>680150542 Those were responses to the argument that humans shouldn't eat meat for practical reasons, which is completely false.
Morally, animals lives are objectively worth less than human lives, eating meat is a more efficient (in both space and time) way to deliver calories to a human body, and so in order for humans lives to continue, meat must be consumed, lest we spend every minute of our days grazing like a cow
>>680150409 yeah thats why everyday my dog goes outside and eats grass. all of our dogs do. hell dogs have been shown to live a completely vegan diet if forced upon them. they arent carnivores. they eat plants. did the t rex eat plants? i dont fucking think so.stop grasping at straws.
As a vegan I'd like to let all of you undeveloped meat eaters that you should all be ashamed of your behavior. These cows and these pigs have feelings and youre just to stupid to see the pain and suffering they go through.
>>680150953 cut your crap. meat has to be eaten fresh, then you won't have any bacteria on it that are dangerous for humans. if you don't know where it has been stored, better sear it. but not because of the meat itself. i hate that fucking vegan way of argumentation.
>>680150542 Pain as in physical sensation caused by injury, yes, plants feel pain.
>yeah so? why does that justify causing suffering when there is no need to do so? If you want to survive, you need to transfer energy from one living entity into another, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but this is done by killing something and eating it. There's is a need to do so, but you can minimize it, and animals can be killed quickly and with next to no suffering, so your argument it moot.
Cut your crap. Meat has bacteria on it the point before its even killed. Storing or cooking it it shouldn't be necessary for us carnivores. Doges and lions can eat it raw but us humans can't. I cry everytime when I realise this. I fucking hate this way of carnivorous argumentation.
Don't care for that radical veganism bullshit but eating more green stuff and fruits is actually a good thing. I worked in a butcher house in my late teens and the chef taught me alot of stuff about quality in meat and respect for the animals. He knows the people breeding the animals and it made me reluctant to buy some cheapass discount meat. Since my GF moved in we usually eat only 2-3 times a weak a meat dish. It's easier on my wallet and I feel healthier. Lost some weight, too.
>>680151456 I got one : Since I don't care about animals more than I care about my fellow humans, I allow others to eat meat because then they can spend their time studying to be scientists and doctors, instead of spending the time grazing like cattle.
>>680150411 There are a lot of dishes with raw meat/fish. Germans even eat raw minced meat for breakfast. No idea in which 3rd world country you're living but the hygiene laws related to animal products here are very strict and enforced by random visits
>>680151617 Claiming to have a PhD while not knowing that it was precisely that fat that allowed for the increase in brain size that allowed for use to evolve from fucking apes. Your school should take your degree, if you actually have one, back from your ignorant ass.
You just argued against your own point. Yes we can eat raw meat, by choice. But it's not healthy, henceforth we shouldn't do it. We don't have the adequate and necessary enzymes to digest raw meat long term, which is why it was proposed we only done it as a last resort during harsh climate conditions were plant sources were scarce.
It's like saying everything we need is in soil, but we can't digest it.
>>680152346 If the meat is cooked, we can safely digest it. Lions and other carnivores don't live anywhere near as long as we do. They might live to 40 tops, we can live up to 100 years old, despite being smaller in mass than them (all other animals in the wild have lifespans in proportion to their mass, elephants live 80 years, mice live 5 years etc)
>>680149704 >Just because we can live on something doesn't mean it's good for our health. It doesn't mean/imply it's bad either.
>Good argument, but meat was only a last resort for our ancestors during harsh weather conditions to maintain a but of extra body fat as a source for preserving extra food It wasn't a "last resort" it was an additional resort of environments usually scarce in food.
>Try eating it raw, nigger There are plenty raw meat dishes. Sushi for example. Or "biftek"
>There's evidence to suggest as runners, we prodominently ate berries and other plant sources to provide us with energy to travel and colonise, not to hunt.
We would love to see some links or other forms of proof of this "evidence"
And if that's true, isn't it kinda weird that people eventually started eating meat?
I mean so many vegans go for "but we're herbivores, we're not supposed to eat meat"
So then why do we? It just magically happened sometime in the last century?
>Hunting was only necessary were plants and food sources were scarce. Untrue, look above
>We live in a day in age with processed GMO food, industry lies and bullshit, have the ability to grow our own food and you fail to realise the correlation between ill health and food. You're so disconnectrd with your food,...
I grow a lot of my own food, and I get fresh eggs from a small chicken farm owned by my family members where the chickens live under much better circumstances.
>>680151168 Do you realize that if we didn't eat them, there would be barely any cows, pigs and chickens left on this planet? We are gifting them life before taking it away from them again.
If we could create perfect living conditions for all the animals we ate, there would be nothing wrong with eating meat at all. If anything, vegans would be the moraly suspect for not eating meat and denying a perfectly fine life to these animals.
its not weird, we needed to eat it at some point, and is now a way to make billions, thats why it isnt going anywhere as long as complacent people who dont think of the moral consequences of food choices continue doing so.
>>680152611 Plants do have neural networks, they just don't have brains in the same way that we have brains because plants and animals are so radically fucking different. they can still react to their bodies being damaged in the same way that we react
>>680152810 looks shopped. also looks like he has liver failure
>>680141578 Funnily enough was speaking to a friend once about what people will look back at about our generation and say 'that's not acceptable', like we look back at our parents' generation saying 'paki shop' and 'going for a chinky' and say it wasn't ok. He said it would be eating meat, and that someday we'd look back on it as really species-ist. Massive argument ensued that convinced me to go veggie (eventually).
That said I completely disagree with comparing eating animals to the holocaust, as not only was eating animals the only way we could survive until relatively recently (not anymore), and regardless of how speciesist it may be, I do still value human life over animal life, even as a veggie.
>>680153037 a chemical reaction is what sends the pain sensation up your neurons to your brain. Just because you have a fancier interpreter in your skull than a plant doesn't mean a plant doesn't have the capacity to react at all to stimuli
>>680152928 >it's an evolutionary advantage for animals yo feel pain since it makes them run away from dangerous situations. There's no advantage to plants feeling pain since they're glued to the spot.
>looks shopped. also looks like he has liver failure
Just watch his videos, he's fit and healthy, and there are plenty of other vegan bodybuilders out there. No need to be in denial
>>680153167 >have nervous system > have brain this is why i can feel pain, and why i am sentient. A plant is not sentient. They react intelligently, they do not subjectively experience reality, even if they did, this does not justify you killing animals... in fact it would make you worse because you would be responsible for more plant "suffering"
>>680153209 nobody is saying plants are sentient. But why arbitrarily draw the line under animals when causing pain is not okay?
Either all pain is okay, or no pain is okay. In the case of the latter, we all starve (or do we because starvation is painful?) and the former allows us to morally eat meat because pain and suffering doesnt really matter. it's subjective as you said.
>>680147875 >EVERY FUCKING THREAD!! WHY DO ADULTS SOMEHOW NOW THINK PLANTS CAN SUFFER. Im so fucking sick of hearing "PLANTS DOE!"... even if they could feel, why does that justify you killing animals? Autism central right here.
The point is it's wrong to damage it's body. So why isn't it the same for plants as well as animals?
The whole argument I have is that this is a part of life, for you to live something else has to die to give you energy. This whole suffering and pain argument is meaningless, since first of all you can minimize it (quick deaths, good living conditions), and second of all, life would not exist without it.
Another way to look at it then is this:
If we gave animals general anesthesia before killing them, assuming it would be good to eat them after, that would be all right?
I hate vegans and think they are annoying to no end but the argument that your plants feel isn't a good argument and I'll tell you why.
Animals share blood just like us humans, animals also have all the sense organs just like humans. Eyes, ears, mouth,touch, smell. They share similar experience that we do. We can understand the suffering they go through because they share the same sense organs. Although it may differ it doesn't differ that much(pure speculation Iv no research to back this last part)
Plants don't have any of this in common with humans and we cannot relate with them the same way we can relate to a cow.
>>680146039 That's not true though - I'm only a veggie myself (can't live without cheese), but I know many vegans, and all but one of them regularly sit and eat with people who are eating meat without ever saying a word about their meat eating. So lumping all of them in together is incredibly unhelpful.
In college we were discussing if its natural to drink cows milk, and this fat insolent monster looking motherfucker of a girl had the nerve to argue me.
>I asked, why would you drink from a cow and not a human? >She said: Because drinking from a human is disgusting, it's just like cannibalism >There she was, standing at 200 pounds round as a bowling ball >Trying to argue me that drinking milk from another animal was fucking natural >200 pounds >200 >200 fucking hundred pounds and not the currency kind
Hehe i'm a meat eater I drink from cow titties and enjoy eating pigs assholes on the daily
I'm a butcher and don't even eat meat. I need to survive so i'll happily kill an animal so I can buy my vegan resources. On the plus side, it's funny serving a few pigs assholes to dumb customers over the counter it keeps me going.
>>680154163 Yeah but it's not relatable like it is with a cow, dog, horse....
The plant sitting in front of me does nothing. It sits there. My dog cuddles with me and communication with him is very similar to that of a human. When he's in pain I know, when he's happy I know, we share a bond unlike that with the plant.
I have an understanding of his pain and with an open mind cam understand the suffering all these farm animals must go though. I'm a meat eater but you cannot argue plants have a similar relation we share with animals. It's just silly.
Sure plants probably feel. I just don't relate woth it at all.>>680154197
>>680154519 why are you repeating yourself so much, i dont have to kill myself, i have a right to live. We dont need any animal product in our diet at all. Plants do not feel pain, they lack a brain and nervous system to do so. You are getting reacting confused with sentience.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Dues this guy realize that chickens eat thier own eggs, fish eat their guppies, and a cow will trample it's young if it feels like it's in danger? Also, humans have fucking canine teeth, for eating meat. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
>>680154414 I don't need justification, simply because I don't care about the animal suffering. You'll never stop mass meat production, you're fucking delusional. Aside from that, completely putting a halt to meat production would kill the planet, not to mention ruin all kinds of trade-systems engrained into our society to the core.
I'm a butcher and have also worked in a factory were I actually slaughtered pigs.
Pigs assholes went to good use in the products. I even spit in some of the products and smear it in before I serve it to my customers, also I don't keep the meat clean that's the responsibility of the customer. So bad luck to them if they get sick, not my problem.
Drinking milk is not natural, you're all babies. If you want to eat meat, be a man and fucking hunt it yourself you lazy fuck. If you want cancer, get cancer. Eat more pork like the muslim cucks you are.
You're trying to say that you think plants have no way of perceiving what's going around them in an environment? Like how much water there's available or where the best soil quality is, things like that?
how about you stupid niggers eat whatever you want, and stop trying to make others share a specific opinion on a lifestyle. You all use regurgitate information you found on the second page of Bing to seem articulate.
>>680155572 No he whines when he is in a position of discomfort. How would I know he's having discomfort, because I to have discomfort the same position he was in when he whines to me.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to stop happiness and sadness.
>no scientific blah blah blah
Speaking of scientific studies. I just recently became aware that 100 studies were redone and the vast majority of them came back with completely different results. Researchers go into studies with a bias and the bias comes out in the research. The scientific method is broken.
I don't need some broken scientific method to notice my dog is content or not content.
>>680155443 I'm not ignoring it, You appearantly hold animals to the same standard as humans. That's fine, some people are simple. I don't hold them to the same standard, so your argument that i'm comparing one sentient being to another which can also suffer, is of no significance.
you're like one of those dipshits who'd see a blank piece of canvas as 'art', and ridicule people who don't 'see' it.
Just stop. People think you're a bunch of retards, and these cringeworthy "My moral POV should be everybodys moral POV" crusades aren't helping.
>>680155808 >all it is is not buying animals. Thats it.
So vegans don't use lipstick? Insulin? Do they chew gum? Only wear fake leather shoes and sit on pleather couches? Most "vegans" I know are such hypocrites it's retarded. It's almost literally impossible to avoid animal by products, or even find a product that isn't treated on animals.
Dairy industry >Cows Milk - Nobody can argue drinking from the tits of another animal is natural
Meat industry >Required to cook our food >If really carnivirous we wouldn't need to >The people commenting on this thread are the same people who defends meat eating but would never slaughter an animal, or would comment on rekt threads of how "animal abuse is fucked up"
>>680156329 It's not, it's the fact that half the products you use in your everyday life have animal by products in them, or they're tested on animals. It's virtually impossible to avoid it unless you make your own clothing, sanitary products, lip sticks, soaps and grow your own vegetables. Idiot.
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