This kind of question is not likely to lead to anything constructive unless you're careful. The world is full of simpletons who want to reduce the complex and variegated phenomena of the worlds social and political bodies to some kind of simple rule: "capitalism is bad" or "regulation is the problem" or "first world consumption is just too high."
We shouldn't be content with any of these- they're cheap and ideological.
If you really want to get anywhere you need to start picking examples of problems you see in the world and then studying them in detail. You need to learn how historical forces created the situation. You also need to study different theories that can provide frameworks for contextualizing those historical details into a coherent (or not- sometimes there just isn't one) pattern.
It's all messy and case by case. Capitalism (as Marx defined it) certainly creates a lot of serious problems, but you can't just reduce all the world's poverty and all the world's military conflicts to capitalism.
Human nature in the reigning free-market microeconomic theories is a ridiculous parody of human experience which should be immediately obvious to anybody.
The idea that we can rank the things we want in some sort of concrete way, or that a consumer's willingness to pay for an object represents its value (subject to blah blah constraints) is beyond stupid.
It's shocking that people buy into this shit. The microeconomic view of human nature literally reduces the human being to an algorithm that sorts preferences for goods and services with prices. It loses all of its meaning outside of the market place, and is completely oblivious to the social, moral and aesthetic dimensions of the human being.
This is also a stupid argument I'm sick of seeing. Why?
When applied to any historical ruling structure prior to capitalism, it refutes capitalism (ie it only argues for the status quo so long as the status quo can be shown to be better than previous systems. It makes no assertions about proposed systems that have not yet been implemented).
>>608426316 It deludes people into thinking that "with a little hard work" they can also be at the top of the pyramid. This naturally causes them to forget that the few stones at the top need all the ones beneath them to have something supporting them and to simply stand upon. Those "stones" at the top will never allow the ones below to reach their lofty heights, or forget their place. Theres simply not enough room and that suits their needs perfectly
>>608426316 Seriously though, at what point up the money ladder do you just stop getting better stuff? There has to be a point where you can afford the BEST food and the BEST drinks and the BEST houses and mansions and the BEST experiences in the world, there has to be a certain point in wealth where there is nothing better to buy. So why go any further than that point?
There will be a "when the shit hits the fan" situation. Is just mathematics. The sun throw a solar storm some months ago that wpuld be killed all our electronic systems. Our "luck" was that the storm was launched to the other side. There will be one that will hit us and our beloved civilization will be kill. Imagine for a moment a world without electricity For months. The cars will be kill, no electric trains, no food transport... How do you think it will end? There is also others situations, like Yellowstone or another supervolcano that will kill our civ too.
Then whe this shit happens, after the chaos and massacres, there will survive only the strongest and smartests, in a society of hunter-gatherers adapted to this new world, the natural state of men.
Look it's not even like that. A rational person looks around, sees places where the status quo is failing, and tries to come up with solutions and ways to implement them.
Marx is useful for dismantling some ideas in capitalist apologetics (taxes as theft, for example, which becomes absurd after studying Marxian labor exploitation- a very solid, foundational idea with the kind of quantitative appeal that you'd think most modern economists would find attractive).
The old 20th century idea of proposing some utopian configuration and implementing it via revolution was a disaster, but that doesn't mean there aren't disasters of capitalism, or that all such disasters are beyond fixing without acquiescing to a utopian ideal.
No. My own thinking is that a mostly anarchist social organization with organic communities that interact voluntarily and cooperatively provides a kind of utopian cardinal direction for us to steer our ship towards.
Obviously all these wars and famines, all this poverty and needless death for want of dollars is stupid and should be diminished.
We get our hands dirty and fix these things one at a time as they come. When bigger systemic causes are unearthed, we have to make bigger , more radical adjustments.
It's arduous and complicated. No simple term should suffice.
>>608431540 Civilization is just a brief moment in the history of humankind, and still it is killing our planet and our own species. Is not about being a catastrophist, is just looking globaly how works not only our civ but also nature and earth. Is impossible that this system will survive. I had hope in science but every year you can see how science doesnt exist to help humaniry but to help corporations and the actual capitalistic system. All our benefits from it is a second hand product derived for the profit of such corporations. This civilization cant survive to one of the situations I said (solar storm, super volcano eruption, asteroid impact), and maybe it even cant deal with a real pandemic. Humans were hunter-gatherers from millions of years, civilization is just a moment and is this short time we are fucking everything. Alea jacta est.
>>608431643 My english is shit bug at least I try to make an argument. Your hurr durr marxism capitalism is like a shit in middle of a road. Like a grain of sand in the hourglass of time.
This. Greed starts propelling itself. Even on a lower level, millionaire bankers that make hundreds of thousands a year, STILL want a bonus that is a quarter of that extra while lower-level employees are getting laid off. Not because they need that money but... they just want to.
There will be islands of civilization that will survive, no matter what. We're spread too widely, and in too great numbers to all die or be thrown back to the middle ages. Besides... I doubt the only people who are seriously considering this possibility are a bunch of fags on 4chan.
Eh, I used to eat this kind of rhetoric up. The truth is that the critics are correct: there is a perfect lineage from Malthus to the modern environmental alarmists (ex: Ehrlich) who see the end of the world looming stealthily behind every just-extinct tree and every million more tons of carbon emissions.
I'm not saying global warming isn't real or that it isn't a serious threat to existing societies. I'm not saying that biodiversity doesn't matter or that we should do mountaintop mining.
I'm just saying that you need to do more than shout "we're all gonna die!!!" if you're serious about addressing these things.
Sure, civilization will end. But I see no reason to believe that end is inevitable, and I certainly don't see how crying about our "die being cast" over lattes is going to do anything about it.
It's only college retards, lazy fucks, or people who don't own shit that want an alternative to capitalism, it's just that they want the hard working, potentially rich, to pool their assets together so that lazy pot smoking fucks can get their share of cake.
If you're at the end of the food chain, there's a reason for that and fuck you.
>>608435244 >>608434993 fucked up my "ctrl+v" second greentext should be >>It's only college retards, lazy fucks, or people who don't own shit that want an alternative to capitalism, it's just that they want the hard working, potentially rich, to pool their assets together so that lazy pot smoking fucks can get their share of cake.
No it's really totally useless. It doesn't invigorate environmentalists: it makes the whole community depressed and sanctimonious.
Environmentalists need to get rid of the Millienarianism-- mostly because it's based on a general assumption that the (often remote) possibility of catastrophe that exists in various systems somehow combines into a guaranteed and very-near extinction of civilization.
Everyone's heard this crap already: "the end is near, but there's still time if we move fast... but nobody's moving so we're probably fucked."
That's not something that gets anybody out of bed in the morning.
>People malnourished,in bad straits,being fucked over by the rich/powerful,and are for the most part,wage slaves,leading lives with little to no hope of significant betterment,and little leisure time.
Nigga how is that socialism. Granted,it's not proper capitalism either,but that is in no way socialism. Their is no such dichotomy between socialism and capitalism like that. Their exist a multitude of other systems as well. For example,the modern day western one is probably best expressed as a plutocracy
>>608427317 >Academically bunk >reeks of anti-Semitism >start going to the library This is just like: youre dumb as fuck and youre a antisemite despite you arose from hell. Go to the library and get smart and learn to love jews aswell. Yeah learning things that influence you subversive.. sure sure And this aint sociopathic...?
You cant blame facts, there was no anti-semite intention in this post delivering the facts, except of the word "jews".
It's worse than that. That pyramid suggests the AVAILABLE knowledge, but the assholes at the bottom aren't geometrically smarter than the schmoes at the top.
George Carlin: "What if there really IS a shadow government... and THEY don't know what the fuck they are doing, either?!"
Lack of transparency does not promote working together well. It's bad enough in a government that is more or less a public affair: imagine the kind of confused and panicked vipers' nest a really secret conspiracy would be.
I think we sometimes imagine there are a few all-powerful, all-knowing masterminds behind everything, but I don't think so. I think it's worse. I think the corporations have become emergent life forms themselves.
This is such a tiresome portrait of religion. Ironically enough it probably goes back to Marx and his influences.
We have plenty of reasons to know that religion can be a liberating force. It can liberate the individual in too many ways to list, and there's ample testimony to that.
It can also liberate society if you investigate movements like Liberation theology, the Catholic Worker, Buddhist activism in Vietnam, Tolstoy's Christian anarchism, a just Islamic polity, the list goes on.
If you're not convinced it can be realized, have a look at Reinhold Niebuhr. He'll tell you about religion functions as a guide but not a destination for social justice.
Yeah... well, if there really IS a world-wide Jewish conspiracy, I can't blame them. Because the Holocaust DID happen, and it was only the last, most gruesome chapter in a history of hating on the Jews.
>>608438068 This grou is using Knowledge about human psyche against us and at the same time they are telling us that "there is nothing interesting in this, just watch some TV and eat shit more". Also "You are too stupid to comprehend what we are doing so just be "free" and we will do everything that is neede to get "us" on top" but those are the one who are responsible for dumming down society and they are acting for THEIR goals, not people. People for them are "Human Resources".
You need to be careful. There's a lot of garbage on the internet. Don't be one of these "self-educated" morons with ridiculous conspiracy theories.
Learning takes time and you have to do it carefully. Don't jump to conclusions and recognize that you'll never master human knowledge. If you're doing it right (learning, that is), you'll only feel more and more ignorant as you go on.
It's awful, but what do you want? What would you do if you had to choose between the survival of all humanity at the cost of the survival of all human civilization and possibly species in a few years, or the destruction of nine tenths of humanity for the sake of the survival and future of the human species?
Humans, as individuals, can be wise, but as groups we tend to be stupid and dangerous.
Of course. Outgroup psychology, herd mentality, group "think", and that perennial favorite: the scapegoat! It's so much easier once you identify the root of all your problems, and against all odds, it's not you, yourself!
Israel can only add to existing pressures. The US goes to war to satisfy the short and long term interests of corporations. If Israel happens to be in line with that, then they'll add fuel to the fire.
You can really see this when you look at how US-Israel interests sometimes overlap on a single issue for extremely different reasons.
>>608439161 i can see the difference between shit/propaganda and the truth (what can be seen as true atleast). i just use common sense and logical thinking, using multiple perspectives etc. i have my way for finding out things. and there were many before me so i can build upon what they've already build
>All religions are based on the same Truth but in current state they are used as part of the System of control.
I find this kind of rhetoric off-putting. Even if it has some truth it rings with the schizophrenic fear that everything is controlled by an omnipotent and evil force that can be overcome by knowing. Quit capitalizing truth.
The USA needs Israel to keep the rest of the Middle East worried. Like a really nasty dog you keep on a leash. The dog doesn't really like you, but you feed it, and if the people want it put down, you say 'No way'. The people are a lot nicer to you because the dog scares them.
Israel needs the USA, Saudi-Arabia needs the USA to keep Israel on its leash, and the USA needs cheap oil.
Obama seems to want to do things differently.
You'd think he'd consider being dark-skinned enough reason for the old men in suits to hate him.
>>608431827 Let me guess, you can't take the nice parts of both worlds right? Like no country has ever tried free trade for products which you can shop around for but state-controll the things which you can't. Like I can shop around for cheap and clean bananas but I can only determine whether a surgeon was any good when it's too late.
>>608439341 Yes but if you get into casual factors and understan WHY most of us are so stupid then we as species can change and live with harmony.
But understanding those things IS understanding that I AM REASON WHY all this shit is happening. And only if every one or at least most of us will look into self and start changing self we can make it as species. If not - we are doomed.
I haven't read that much Kafka. But what is the basic motivation of each member of a corporation or organization? Protecting the organization, because they rely on its strength. Just like cells in an organism.
But the organism is primitive: it only cares about survival. Its brain cells are barely smarter than the rest.
Guys, you're all thinking about this wrong. The problem is not capitalism, it is the patriarchy. We need a women's revolution. This would fix all problems in the world. We need to stop man spreading to end poverty!
...because it is not sustainable. As has been demonstrated, it can last for a "long" time (depending on how you define "long") but it cannot perpetuate because it demands resources that are not infinite. Since we need resources to live and capitalism thrives from consumerism, we are all encouraged to consume faster than we can restore (if we can restore at all).
There will come a point where capitalism simply fails to work but from what I see of human nature, those at the top of the pyramid in your model will maintain their control over the masses at the bottom because the masses are trained through lies of individualism and so live scared, unaware of the power they can wield when they join forces. Here in the west, I am left baffled as to why we have not begun a revolution against the ruling classes yet since so many of us are struggling in the current economic climate. But what it comes down to is we allow ourselves to be fed bullshit by the media to keep us frightened, we buy into individualism and largely are forgetting how real community works, trained as we are by social media, consumerism and paradigms enforced through politics, media, social care etc.
While no one person will admit to being part of "the masses" as described above, it is the very fact that as individuals we know our own traits, but as part of the mob, that it precisely who we all are.
>>608441809 Okay, self governed democracy. What if the self governed democracy got so large that all members could not have fair say in whatever democratic meeting they held. Do you think maybe it would thereby be more practical to have, oh I don't know, a system of representatives for regions to participate in these democratic meetings? Hypothetically. Shit, I think we're on to something...
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