Are you willing to spend the rest of your life with her? Even if you're not sure, that should be good enough to know. To some degree, God has everything to do with everything, but don't spend too much time wondering, you won't know for sure.
how do you reconcile what the bible says happened in the days of jesus with what history says happened in the days of jesus? on that note, why do you feel that the bible is the word of god when since its inception, it has been used as nothing but a political tool
>>560728697 Do humans have free will? if so, that means that my mom chose to fuck my dad and have me of her own free will. But then wouldn't that mean that god did not cause me to be born, which means that I was not brought into this world for any purpose, and the same goes for everyone.
If you have no central nervous system how can you feel pain in Hell? Also, since you are a immaterial soul, how can you be bound in hell? Also, why would you want to go to Heaven? You spend ETERNITY there! You don't die, you don't live, your dead. At some point I would go mad, in Hell at least I would have the goal of escaping it. Heaven, your existence is henceforth purposeless. You can't die in hell, no punishment can possibly effect you unless you decide it can effect you. Either way, you end up in an endless abyss of oblivion, forced to live unendingly awake for...forever.
When someone actually thinks about it and looks at it, both heaven and hell sucks. Why would anyone want to be stuck in either of those places?
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Like any other text, you can't cherry-pick the context out of it. You can't read Leviticus the same way you'd read a Pauline epistle. Literalism is a very recent movement and never was the standard in the past.
This can be proven by using the Bible itself: there are four gospels, each has different "final words" for Christ. If the people who compiled the Bible thought it was the literal word of God with no mistake possible, they wouldn't have incorporated four gospels with mutually exclusive elements. They did it because they knew what those texts were: human testimonies written by humans. God didn't want to write the text Himself for reasons we can all guess too easily. Paul further warns about the textual obsession that many have, which is supported by literal reading, which is frankly plain silly. Sometimes it's literal, sometimes it's not. Same with Shakespeare or a cooking recipe. It isn't that hard to perceive a metaphor and something literal. To make this easier, though, we need context.
If you want more on this, we should narrow it down to one book of the Bible rather than the whole.
The Vatican's many golden items cost the Church nothing as it's their historical heritage, which they cannot sell. They got it from centuries ago and as with many historical items, you can't just sell them. The Church isn't as rich as most imagine.
>print >vernacular translations of the Bible >belief that anyone can just read and understand >birth of Protestantism >emphasis on the text, without context, without scholars' help >literalism, Fundamentalism >Creationism
>>560731084 ok well for starters the enslavement and exodus of the jews from egypt. we know for a fact none of this ever happened. then noah's flood, which we know never happend. all the way through jesus's miracles and resurrection. none of which ever happened either.
>>560730330 >Do humans have free will? >if so, that means that my mom chose to fuck my dad and have me of her own free will. But then wouldn't that mean that god did not cause me to be born, which means that I was not brought into this world for any purpose, and the same goes for everyone.
God partakes of everything we do through His immanence. He is both everything and exists beyond it as well. One very important thing for us to be free is for God to give us room, and thus free will. My view may not be held by many but I honestly think God, through His omnipotence and omniscience, chose not to know everything and chose not to intervene when He could, so we could be free and face our own consequences.
Simply because random things will happen because humans can choose doesn't mean God can't have planned ahead anyway. Think of it like an MMO game, you don't know who will play, but you can prepare missions and roles. You simply choose your roles. Some will choose to be evil-doers and others will try to help and be positive. Whichever road you choose has a destination and it's up to you.
This has been debunked a number of times. You should know that this is in fact a troll targetting atheists, but only people versed in the Bible recognise it as such. You're welcome.
>If you have no central nervous system how can you feel pain in Hell?
Who's to say what we have in the beyond? But even without that, there may be pains you can't even imagine as a human.
As to eternity, it may include reincarnation and other sorts of breaks. If we imagine eternity as humans, we're bound to conclude madness from it, but that wouldn't be Heaven if it was such a torture. Many Christians I know share that fear. They actually try not to think of Heaven too much because the idea frightens them.
theres the most fundamental question of all...why christianity? why not judaism or islam or hinduism or buddhism or anything else? any objective, rational observation will tell you there is literally nothing unique about christianity
>>560730601 >I like Jesus but I don't really like Christians in general.
I can't blame you, Ghandi. I'll sooner talk to atheists than many Christians. My friends used to make fun of me with that song. It's funny as fuck but yeah... I still have a hard time telling myself I'm supposed to be on their side. It's still a silly cool song though, but even I can't take it without irony.
I see science as an ally to humans and not at all mutually exclusive with religion. Each simply has to know its place. Treat science as science and religion as religion and nothing goes wrong. Treat one as the other and it won't work.
Thank you. Not to offend anyone, but I personally think agnosticism is the default position for anyone who is critical. I'm an agnostic Christian because I don't actually know that there is a God and can't quite understand how anyone can imagine they know, one way or the other.
Pascal's wager was mostly a boutade, not a serious argument, and it was done in the context of Christianity or nothing, since Pascal lived in a world where everyone was Christian. There were no atheists. He was simply imaging someone who denied the only faith people had back then.
>>560732567 That's retarded. The Bible all but screams that God's motivation is partially to test humans, which means never confirming his existance except for to prophets. Otherwise every faithless fairweather Christian would get the ultimate reward. I'm not even Christian and I know that.
I'm not sure if you're serious. My thoughts on evolution? It's biology.
If yes to what? Whether I think evolution is real? Of course it's real.
The Bible isn't a biology textbook so there's nothing to make it fit with. The creation myth is a myth: a story that explains how we got to live in this world. Genesis describes our world as a half sphere surrounded by water above and below (the sky is blue, so obviously it's water) and Jews had water coming up from the ground on occasions, so they assumed that immense ocean above was present below as well. That should be enough to make any thinking man that you shouldn't take the Bible literally when it's about the natural world and that it was written by fallible humans. To reject everything because of errors of this kind would be shallow, though. It would be as if you kidnapped a tribesman from his tribe, made him visit a city and a nuclear plant, and be surprised that what he told his people afterwards had no scientific precision.
>>560730870 why does everyone hate us so much? I understand that a lot of atheists are angry 12 year olds, but we aren't all faggots... I don't want to destroy religion i just think it's claims of truth are incorrect, otherwise i understand its purpose which is preserving cultural knowledge and practices and psychology. and yet somehow no one seems to care about agnostics. it's not like we're all that different... i could call myself agnostic if i wanted to, since i can't prove god doesn't exist, but really it's just more practical to say "i don't believe in god" i.e. atheist. There seriously is no way to disprove the existence of bigfoot or the loch ness monster or ufo sightings in any way more conclusive than you can disprove god (go ahead, try it). I mean you don't have to be an atheist but the least you could do is not be such a dick as to put us below christians...
>>560733006 Because you're hypocrites and there's too many autistic atheists who think they're smarter than everyone else. Pro Tip: If you say there is no God without proof, then you are making a claim based on faith.
That's not true. Christianity can be explained in ways that make sense, although you have to be ready for things that aren't of this world, which will always give you the opportunity to say, "That's insane." Many things which are completely true sound insane to those who don't know, whether it's ducks' sex lives or the Big Bang theory. Try telling a child about either and they'll be confused, as is normal.
When the BB theory first appeared, most of the scientific community scorned it as being "too religious", but now that all scientists accept it, nobody even think of that anymore.
For example: > Violence cleanses evil Nah, it says: > Blows and wounds scrub away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being. It has to do with self discipline, self harm to cleanse your own soul, not hurting others. Your soul, your problem.
> Enslave your neighbors who worship other gods. It is not what Levitcus 25:44:46 says. Not even close. It's just bad paraphrasing.
Also, slaves back in Jesus-times and before was not slaves as we see it today. Jobs and work ethics are quite new. If you wanted to survive you had to work. Either you owned your own piece of land, growing shit and eating it, or you found someone that could take care of those needs for you.
Sure you didn't get paid in money, but you did get a roof and food, thus you survived.
So many things wrong just with the first two, I can't be arsed going over the rest of them, they are probably just as wrong and misquoted.
A whole lot, but not for the reasons you may think. He annoys me when he thinks he has a great argument against faith when in reality it's nothing and anyone with basic knowledge of theology and apologetics can offer a good counter argument. That rustles my jimmies. Dawkins about God is like my plumber about evolution. It's not his field, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
He's much better at explaining evolution and I greatly enjoyed his "evolution of the eye" demonstration.
His books about God are nothing more than pop atheism to me and have very little substance in my opinion. Being against Creationism is something I support, though, I just wish he wouldn't assume Christians should be Creationists, because they should not.
>>560733957 the problem with the bible is that it teaches people to be subservient and to a degree, rely on god instead of themselves.
I do not have a problem with this inherently, but the problem is that they feel obliged to push it on others. Its not their fault, its how they were brought up. but does this make it any better for the person on the recieving end? not really.
>>560732032 >any objective, rational observation will tell you there is literally nothing unique about christianity
Incorrect. Christianity is the only religion of all of these where God Himself becomes one of us, lives as one of us, and dies as one of us, in order to save us. I found that nowhere else. Buddhism has no such God and Islam has the Old Testament God dictating words to a single man.
I could go on and on about why I chose Christianity over everything else. You just assume every religion is on the same level because you're convinced there is no God.
>>560733841 well no shit a child would be confused by that stuff, that's a terrible comparison you're basically saying the reason stuff in the bible doesn't make sense to us is because we aren't smart enough to understand it you're saying people can rise from the dead, and we're all just too stupid to realize it, just like a child is too stupid to understand the big bang theory i'm out, it's not even worth the effort at this point, you can't even make a sound argument
>>560732418 >can you tell me what hell and heaven are like?
From my own, I can't. Swedenborg wrote a whole book about both, from his alleged communication with angels for 13 years; they supposedly took him to both places. It's a fascinating read but who knows what it's worth.
Basically, he sees heaven and hell as natural places for which you shape yourself through this life. Hellish people wouldn't feel well in heaven because it requires you to do things like help others and be helped in return, whereas hell will require you to do what you liked doing on earth, and having it done to you, that's the catch.
I just realise I misread your final sentence. I thought you were telling me this wasn't going to be a trap. My bad.
I'll revert to my original answer: no, I can't tell you.
You do realise that "December" is a Roman concept that Egyptians had no knowledge of? It doesn't make any sense at all. You can verify all of these and realise that 90% of it is bunk. You've discredited yourself big time. You don't know any history at all.
So Horus is born of a virgin mother? Then why did Horus' mother fuck herself with a dick? How's that virginal?
"The mother of Horus was believed to be the goddess Isis. Her husband, the god Osiris, was killed by his enemy Seth, the god of the desert, and later dismembered. Isis managed to retrieve all of Osiris’s body parts except for his phallus, which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by catfish. (I’m not making this up). Isis used her goddess powers to temporarily resurrect Osiris and fashion a golden phallus. She was then impregnated, and Horus was conceived. However this story may be classified, it is not a virgin birth."
You guys are gullible. It only takes a few clicks to read on Egyptian myth and check for yourselves, but you didn't do that for any of these deities. Read this and get educated:
>>560734963 if god wrote his laws in us, then why does he give a shit what religion we choose? since we already know everything that we are supposed to know by instinct, why does he care if we actually worship him? there is no reason except for personal gratification, which a perfect and timeless being shouldn't even care about. There are lots of people who really don't believe in god, or even if they do are stillnon-christian and live perfectly moral lives.
christianity does the same thing, and its not just limited to solidary web forums.
like the westbro baptist church. showing up at gay rallies and the like. fair game from my perspective.
if god wrote his laws in us, then in theory we do not need a god to function, and yet will set our own morals independent of god.
If this is true, then should we be acting in what the bible considers a sinful nature, then this is also acceptable as this is present within us too.
If our sinful nature is as a result of sinning against god, then in theory all those atheists who have established their own system of morals have overcome original sin independently of god, and therefore there is no need for him to exist to repent.
However logically this does not make sense as the bible tells us we require the holy spirit in order to be free from sin and to accept salvation of christ.
Therefore those who live a moral life themselves have essentially overcome original sin (provided it exists in the first place) without god.
It is not meaningless, however I respect your point of view. Please do point out the logical fallacies with mine.
>>560734963 If he wrote the law in us, then why did he get so pissed when Steve ate the apple? Should't God have been pissed at himself for writing bad code and not bug testing before release?
If they did not know about right or wrong before the apple, then they are not to blame, right? That's the story isn't it, they learnt about modesty, morality and sin by eating the apple, before that they had not sense of those things. So really, it's like getting mad at your dinner table for not being able to do calculus. Then punishing all dinner tables for the rest of time for one dinner tables bad maths.
It is a logical argument for why to put your faith in "faith" as opposed to doing the contrary.
for a logical person presented with the situation of whether god exists or not, he will definately choose to believe.
To believe is logical. What is illogical is the thought process leading to it. It implies that inherently this one religion is true while the others are false. Then given this, why does he choose this one over all the others if they all have a similar chance of being correct? He will most likely at this point, choose the one that offers punishment for disobedience.
This narrows it down to the abrahamic religions and a couple of others. At this point the only logical thing to do is to choose based on his current circumstances (as if they all offered the possibility of hell, then they are essentially same within the parameters of the wager). He/she will most likely be forced at this point to pick. to increase his chances of picking right, psychology dictates group think, and he will choose the one that is most prevalent.
In this day and age, this is christianity, so choosing to believe is logically acceptable.
Then there is the argument, that is this still "faith"?
I don't recall Christ saying anything about that nor do I assume that the traditions of Hebrews several millennia ago should be used by us, which we don't since we aren't polygamous anymore. If we were supposed to do as Moses did, then we'd have many wives on top of marrying them before we sex them up.
I personally think this focus on no sex before marriage is trivial and doesn't fit with our societies. What it really means is that you shouldn't fuck with someone you don't have a relationship because it has many risks, not the least of which are STD's. It can also leave you feeling very empty. That said, sins of the flesh are very minor sins.
In other words, it doesn't matter that much in Christianity.
>>560735635 You're talking of one of the most metaphorical part of the Bible. I think a lot of Christians have different interpretations on this. I don't know the position of the Catholic church but a friend of mine seemed to believe that God let Adam and Eve define themselves what was good and wrong, and from that point they simply couldn't live in Eden. Just giving you a viewpoint.
>>560733186 >Why are you so dumb that you want to use a non-existing creature as a reason for everything you can't explain?
What is a thing I can't explain that I use God for when I don't even claim to explain God Himself?
I don't do that. I can't explain the Big Big for instance, I can't say what caused it, like any scientist today, but that doesn't mean I automatically assume "God did it", even though if there's a single thing that God might have done, that'd be the BB. I don't do any God of the gaps stuff.
Burden of proof applies when you're arguing a case based on evidence and resorting to the scientific method. Serious Christians don't do that simply because we don't have any such evidence to offer. That's not how it works. My faith isn't a scientific theory that you can falsify. I'm very aware of that and don't claim anything else.
>>560736147 >Minor sins. Didn't you say it was bad to pick and choose which laws and sins are more important than others. I grew up in a Christian household, but I only can consider religion as something which can be used to guide people to live a better, more selfless life. Even so, only within a minimum capacity. Anyone that devotes their life to their religion I often find to be narrow minded and bigoted.
I'm European, so I've never, ever, had a Christian try to preach to me, and I work around Christians a lot. It's probably a cultural difference, but here, if you're Christian, you're in the minority and people will either mock you on the side or look at you like you're a freak, so people don't share their faith, and more generally, people here won't talk of politics, sex, or religion unless it's made clear that this is what someone wants to discuss.
You could argue that I'm preaching right now, by answering the questions of people who want to ask me things. I do hope to offer something new to some people.
>>560736570 Also, don't know if you've answered this already above, but what led you to be a Christian? Did you grow up in a Christian household? What would it take for you to not be a Christian? Why not other religions?
Seriously 4chan? You are arguing with an idiot who hasn't answered ANYTHING. And gives vague answers to come across as intelligent.
Remember, you believe that all humans came from two humans, who were made by a giant man in the sky. And those two humans and their children had sex with their mother and the daughters with their father so they could expand humanity. After that your pitiful god flooded the earth and they had to expand themselves again by the means of mass incest.
Fuck you, fuck your thread. Keep believing in fairy tales.
The truly amazing thing about atheists, beyond bananas, is that you actually think the spaghetti monster is on par with Christ in terms of evidence and cultural relevance and philosophy, theology, and etc. I believe in God, but I have a hard time believing in such willful ignorance.
>>560735585 >christianity does the same thing, and its not just limited to solidary web forums.
I'll deal with you as a person on your own and in return, you'll deal with me on my own. I won't attack you based on what others do and expect the same from you.
The "Westbro", heh, Baptist Church is a marginal sect amongst marginal Christians who, according to me, have strayed, as I think of Protestants as Christians in error. I certainly don't side with them on many things.
>if god wrote his laws in us, then in theory we do not need a god to function, and yet will set our own morals independent of god.
Yes and no. You don't need to be religious to be good, but that doesn't mean you don't need God. Technically, without God (as defined in religion), nothing would be alive, no physical law would function, etc. You don't need to know how a car works to drive one. Same idea. Morals are dependent on God since that's where we get to know what's right and what's wrong (this isn't an argument, by the way, that's just the definition from a religious point of view, I'm not trying to convince anyone or use this to prove God, just clarifying definitions).
>Therefore those who live a moral life themselves have essentially overcome original sin (provided it exists in the first place) without god.
Christianity holds that the very good in them comes from God, so it's never without Him, by definition.
>It is not meaningless, however I respect your point of view. Please do point out the logical fallacies with mine.
No logical fallacies so far, just a misunderstanding of terms.
Because if you choose to believe in God solely because you have more chances that way than not, then God knows why you claim to believe, and you end up in Hell anyway, as mercenary love isn't love and doesn't count.
Secondly, it makes a joke of the faith by making it mercenary love at any rate. It isn't worth anything. I love Pascal, you should know, but that wager is nothing more than a slight boutade as Pascal intended it.
>Didn't you say it was bad to pick and choose which laws and sins are more important than others.
I did. Sexual sins were always regarded as lower than others. I'm not making anything up or cherry-picking. The greatest sin has always been Pride and the acts that come from it. Dante's lust sinners are in the first circle of Hell, not the last at all. Pride is always worse than Lust in every Christian story you can find.
Humans have used Christianity to fend off their fear of sexuality, but Christianity itself isn't based on sex. Even Paul says to get married if you're so horny that you can't go without sex. The matter was much lighter centuries ago than it is today.
>>560738435 Hmm. Alright, i understand your reasoning. Another question, what do you think about how so many people interpret god's "word" and messages differently. Moreover, how people depend on prayer and take away such vastly different meanings from what they say god tells them. Doesn't that just open up the gateway to spew whatever self-serving bullshit they want. I just can't trust the human psyche enough to believe people are talking to god and that god tells them something... This also ties in with how god told people what to write, and what to include in the writing and canonising of books to be included in the bible.
I grew up atheist. Introduction to Protestantism antagonised me, made me choose to read the Bible on my own at age 12. Made it through the first five books of the OT and I was a raging atheist by then.
From 12 to 18 I was a furious atheist and then reading changed my mind. Dostoyevsky, Pascal, many other authors and actual people in my life made me reconsider.
Reading about Quakers made me interested in Christianity. I went on reading and the Catechism of the Catholic Church showed such an intellectual display of the faith that I chose to be Catholic.
CS Lewis' books are the best introduction to Christianity I could ever recommend. Mere Christianity is something people should read before even trying to read the Bible, because the good book isn't user-friendly.
>>560737068 >Seriously 4chan? You are arguing with an idiot who hasn't answered ANYTHING. And gives vague answers to come across as intelligent.
That's so ridiculously unfair. Just read the thread.
>Remember, you believe that all humans came from two humans,
I don't, as evidence by the fact that my sacred book clearly talks of other humans in Genesis: Cain meets his wife from another tribe, and she doesn't come from Adam nor Eve. Besides, only atheists and Fundamentalists read Genesis literally.
>Fuck you, fuck your thread. Keep believing in fairy tales.
You're a very insecure person. And you're right to be: you know that an actual conversation with me would destabilise you and your comfort position. I won't force you, though. Don't read the thread if you want to remain secure in your beliefs.
>>560737710 >Reading a book claiming misogyny, homophobia, racism and violence is not knowledge, I can assure you.
Are there actually people beyond 15 who think this is a legimate argument? Do you not know the difference between the Old and the New Testament or do you think "old" and "new" have no meaning whatsoever?
Your opinion of Christianity isn't knowledge, that's for sure.
Atheist's have spent our free will on developing a world without God that has led to democracies without justice, economies without balance, entertainment without restraint, and pleasures without moderation. This generation is climaxing into a dysfunctional era with mass shootings, violence, governments turning on their own people and suppressing them, an emotionally ruptured generation that is incapable of committing to a relationship or functioning in a society.
If you pray and God literally answers you with words, I'd immediately see a psychiatrist.
I'd also be skeptical of people who claim they are in direct communication with God.
However, I do believe, from direct experience, that some people have gifts not unlike those given to early Christians, who can cure ills with their hands and such. The people who do this do it for free, and even say that should they ask for money, the gift would leave them. I've seen their results on my people I know personally and have a rather open-minded opinion about them. They won't flat-out tell you they're Christian, but they do explain that it has to do with God.
Atheists let themselves be dazzled by the false glamor of honors and human greatness while others are equally blinded by self-love, not realizing that they are falling into lukewarmness and immense evil. It is this contempt for others which is the fundamental cause of your great downfall. Religion does not have to fight Atheism. Atheism is auto destructing as we speak with gigantic egos eventually clashing.
The vast majority of religious texts are sourced from the ancient Egyptian mystery cult, maybe even older civilisations, and the stories have been told and retold for thousands of years. They have also been told selectively by people who wish to rule the world. The stories are all figurative, meant to serve as guidelines, to teach us how to get along and live with some semblance of peace. Taking direct meaning from a religious book is madness, and using it to justify killing of any form, killing anyone, no matter how different they are, is also madness. My Atheist upbringing has taught me rationality and I now look on religion as a collection of historic text to be CONSIDERED only, never followed to the letter.
The god, who judges you when you die, is yourself. You are faced with all the deeds of your life, good and bad, and with divine reason, you judge yourself. Essentially, you then decide which lessons you must learn in the next life, and you will be born into the time or scenario which best suits that lesson. If you are rich and take your wealth for granted, you will decide that, next life, you will be poor. Time does not exist outside of life, so you can choose when to live with no limits. The ultimate goal is preperation, we are here to learn about interaction. This is what I believe, also that all individuals come from the same one source, and they are the same individual at different stages of development. Life was designed to be hard, and you will be your own judge of how you live it.
If the old testament is all metaphors, why does anyone assume the new testament is at all related to reality? Why does Jesus have to have been able to perform miracles, or even have existed? Why can't the message be separated from the "person" of jesus?
>>560739685 That ancient Egyptian mystery cult had been debunked by Archaeologists. It appears to me that few have ever actually met a scientist or worked in a scientific field. Many atheists I know haven't the slightest understanding of the scientific process and have an occupation that has nothing to do with science, but arrogantly speak of it as if they're experts. I think these are the sort of people you're getting your knowledge from.
>>560728697 Why do you believe in your god? He only exists to humans because in the past we needed sometype of leadership controlling us, so we worshiped rocks, animals, people. etc. What makes your god any different from them? Also what makes your god so different then everylast God or holy things?
>why does anyone assume the new testament is at all related to reality?
I will attempt to demonstrate. Compare a story that explains how the universe came about as explained by humans several millennia ago, humans who literally thought they were living inside a half bubble surrounded by endless water, and letters written by specific people about specific groups of other people in a specific part of the planet.
Do you see how different these texts are? It's like comparing Tolkien's Silmarilion with the collected letters of Hemingway. You just can't read them the same way.
The message can't be separated from Jesus because He literally is the message. You can do good without thinking of God, but doing good is directly of God. These are things we see as separate but aren't, regardless of what we think.
Because earthly deeds don't mean much when you've created the universe. There's also no historical evidence for Odin being an actual person, while history knows there was a man named Jesus who got nailed, even if that's about as far as we know, history-wise.
>>560739969 Not all of the old testament is metaphors. Some of the things in there are cultural ideology mixed in with worship of God. Christ came to correct a lot of things and separate culture from religion and beliefs. Just like today we have politics mixed in with religion and beliefs. Very dangerous.
Honor is no more associated with fools than snow with summer or rain with harvest.
You shouldn't do things just to receive honor and praise and gratification to make you feel good about you're self.
>>560740772 There is no historical evidence for Christ. Also, Christ was taken from Egyptian myths about Horus. They're so similiar that it hurts. YHWH is patethic compared to other gods and you know it.
While most humans believed in gods, their gods were simply personifications of natural phenomena, like thunder, lightning, water, fire, wind, etc. "My" God isn't a personfication of any given phenomena, but the source of them all. Pele died as a deity the moment we knew how volcanoes worked. You will never find any such explanation that would kill God because "my" God can't be reduced to any given phenomenon.
>>560740954 That ancient Egyptian mystery cult had been debunked by Archaeologists. It appears to me that few have ever actually met a scientist or worked in a scientific field. Many atheists I know haven't the slightest understanding of the scientific process and have an occupation that has nothing to do with science, but arrogantly speak of it as if they're experts. I think these are the sort of people you're getting your knowledge from.
Either God can actually change and "grew up" since the OT, which is what Mormons believe, or the OT is more secondary than many people believe, which is my case.
Christ could have been born in India and the OT would be Hindu in nature and it wouldn't change much to the New Testament. I take the OT with a pinch of salt and include context.
I assume Jews thought God hated them when other people treated them badly and liked them when they were lucky in wars and such. It's more of a defence mechanism than anything. Do I believe God actually talked to prophets and everything in the OT? I suspend my judgement on that. My faith is based on the New Testament. I read the OT for context and wisdom, as it does have very significant texts, some which go directly against mainstream Christianity, like Ecclesiastes, and I always find it interesting that atheists don't resort to that book more often to attack Christians, as it's literally a fedora-tipping book within the Bible, although it's beautifully written.
>>560741093 So since your god isn't the god of one persona, that makes him more real than the rest? Your religion will die. It is mythology, more and more people are realizing this everyday. People are realizing that he isn't real. He doesn't control of anything. and if he can never give people evidence of who or what is powers is, then why will people continue to follow?
One more thing about the Horus/Christ stuff: who actually believes that early Christians had access to Egyptian's culture?
Most of this stuff wasn't recovered until the 19th century but you guys somehow believe that Paul and the Apostles travelled to Egypt, excavated Egyptian documents and analysed the walls while simultaneously translating Egyptian and hieroglyphics?
I think highly of early Christians but that's far beyond any serious expectations.
>>560740217 It's difficult for anyone to know with any accuracy what happened that long ago, all language is open to intepretation, we will take whatever we want to take from it, so I try to study as wide a variety of sources as possible, including going to museums and studying the hyroglyohs myself etc. Though I'm no archeologist. The only source I can truly trust is my own intuition, how I feel about something. So I'm presenting my opinion of it, it's not like I remember it happening in a previous life, which would be nice lol.
The impression I get is that modern religions, which claim originality, are in fact based on the stories of previous religions.
The problem I have is the differentiation between spirituality and organised religion. It becomes about belonging to a group more than taking lessons about life. Westborough baptist church for example, certifiable. Islamic fundamentalism, forcefully spreading Islam into places it's not invited, Judaism assuming superiority of morals, "we earned this land of Israel because we were persecuted" A sepeeation of religion from spirituality. I'm dissilusioned, and Atheism gives me nothing either, only a lack of meaning or purpose. I follow the path of last resistance, while trying never to be lazy or indifferent
Same deal. Every time you see "born on the 25th of December", you know it's bullshit because the very month "december" was a Roman invention, so any deity associated with this date, when it predates Romans, you know it's bunk.
Moreover, if that were true, it'd still be bunk as Christ was not born in December or in the 25th and for a long time, Christians celebrated His birth in April, with the coming of Spring.
So whichever way you take it, it makes no sense. It's just that you guys don't check sources yourselves and rely on what you're told.
All you had to do was read wikipedia on either Horus and Mithra to see if it adds up or not. It's really not hard.
>>560742073 I don't think that's a solid argument. I don't know exactly what we are talking about here but a lot of traditions can survive orally for centuries. Anyway I don't see the problem : the way the myth was constructed doesn't change if the message is true or not
>>560741738 That's a random person on the internet called "godlessgirl702". If that's your source no wonder you're confused. No archaeologist would ever accept what you just demonstrated as evidence. That's just a random person typing the same thing you have typed. You actually kind of sound like an idiot.
>>560742616 No, they made new religion based on the old one. Just like every other religion.
You must be truly dumb to believe in any god since there were so many. Saying "im the only and true god" doesn't make him better than the others. There is no evidence for any of his miracles. He stopped showing up after we invented recorders(epik meme). He's not real.
>>560742178 What did Jesus say that clearly distinguishes him from all other and with certainty and a firm language?
"If you have seen me, you have seen the father."
"I have come to serve, not to be served."
"No one can go to the father except through me." There is not other prophet or so called other Messiahs throughout history that have claimed God was their father. Only Jesus is the way. Anything else will cause much confusion. As is evident in the world today.
>>560742758 I really think the jews knew about Egypt in some way. It's not because we don't have written traces that it didn't exist. People travelled a lot and cultures melted. Also, oral transmission favorised that kind of evolution of the myths. But I agree that there are some complotist theory about that too.
>>560743016 Um yeah.. search it on your own then. Sounds like you don't know anything. Atheist say Christians believe anything but it's the Atheist who end up in that problem.
The entire: "Christianity is plagiarized from pagan religions" myth was debunked by the 1920s. First of all you need to get a copy of Lee Strobel's book: The case For the Real Jesus. In which he clearly shows you, through experts, why each of the points you talk about Horace Mithra are not parallels to Christianity.
>>560743312 Following only one prophet will lead you down a path of blindness, closed to other information, blindly dismissing other evidence. We should all study every religion, and chose a path for ourselves. If that path is one of destruction, eg. The crusades in gods name, then your fellow man will judge you and, hopefully, remove you from the gene pool
>>560742514 It exist because it is a comforting lie. You better worship Christ or you will burn awfully in hell. But if you love and worship him and god, the church will love you. The reason it didn't die long ago is because the masses of people are stupid. People in 1950 worshiped Christ because they're parent forced him or they will die in hell,people in 1960 same story, 70's same story, now same story. But every generation less and less people.
God became one of us for reasons not explicit in nature though explicit in intent: salvation. It's anyone's guess how this stuff works but there are many theories. One of them is that God became one of us so that we could become one with Him. To be able to judge us, God needed to know what it's like to be a human being and not know all that God knows, hence being another "person", His own son. Jesus didn't know all that God knew, because He was fully human, though fully God too, in nature.
"original sin" is a debated concept. You could argue that merely being apart from God condemns you to sin. Thus, Christ brings us back to God.
>>560743449 >I really think the jews knew about Egypt in some way. It's not because we don't have written traces that it didn't exist.
Sure, but that's an argument from silence and you could argue anything that way.
The fact remains that it wasn't possible for these Jews to either know Egyptian language or have access to Egyptian myths to the degree that European archeologists had, much later on. Besides, if it was a conspiracy, why go to the trouble of imitating myths nobody knew about? Just make shit up already.
>>560743423 He never created anyone with any sin. Humans were the one who made the choice to sin. No one put a gun to your head and made you come here to engage in this discussion. You made that choice you're self.
God gave you life and choice. You control where your life goes through the choices you make.
The belief that I align myself with, no doubt ridiculous to most of you, is that ancient aliens placed primitive mankind on this planet, maybe altered existing life to evolve exponentially. They thought primitive people need primitive explanations, maybe there was a need for us to discover the real truths on our own, so they give us spiel about magic and gods and angels. Now we are no linger primitive, but we stick to our primitive beliefs, and denounce things that might lead to real truth
>>560744387 >Going off into other religions will cause a lot of confusion because you will have questions that will remain unanswered.
I personally went to other religions and all it did was confirm my faith in Christ. If anything, it strengthened my faith beyond doubt. I can literally not believe any other religion at this point. It's like comparing chess, monopoly, with swimming as olympic sports. They have their merits, but you know the real deal.
>>560728697 God is either non-existent or an asshole. I'd rather believe in no god than one that sends people that disagree with him to hell. Especially saying as there's so many things to disagree with god about.
>>560744331 Again, it's choice. People make end up in hell because of the choices they make. Those choices affect other peoples lives. If you make the wrong choices without correcting it, how can you deserve to be rewarded.
>>560744387 Each individual is his or her own god, and govern themselves, we don't submit to god, we make our own god, so individuality prevails and chaos is inevitable. Trying to make other people follow your god is a fruitless effort, and will only result in foolish people in a large group. This paradigm is only good for oppressing people
>>560744796 If God is indeed omniscient as you claim, then he created people with the knowledge that they would choose to not believe in him, or in another deity. He willingly condemned these people. How do you explain that?
God, by making us free, chose not to know what we would decide. God made room for us to exist, same deal with omnipotence, He chose not to intervenen as a general rule so we could truly be free and responsible for our actions.
Thus, God didn't condemn anyone but let everyone free to choose their paths with the corresponding end. God doesn't reward anyone with heaven or punish with hell, it's just where you make yourself fit to go.
>>560744883 If you believe that you are a God unto you're self, then you have already been deceived and through that deception you deceive others. Which clearly demonstrates my point that humans have a choice. When you end up before God, you will painfully realize that the choices you made did not make you a God.
About the putative failing of atheism, Solzhenitsyn declared:
Over a half century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of old people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened." Since then I have spent well-nigh 50 years working on the history of our revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some 60 million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened."
>>560745297 I think you should check with your holy book, because it's pretty explicit about God knowing everything that's going to happen from beginning to end.
So yes, he created people with the knowledge that they would "condemn themselves." Therefore he willingly forsook those people from the start.
He knew a person born in India to Hindu parents would choose to believe in Hindu, and regardless of how good that person might be in life, they would suffer eternal torment because he gave them "free will."
Basically, god gave these people just enough rope to hang themselves with. That's your idea of a benevolent deity.
What I like to believe : " I'm not qualified to say whether or not God exists. I kind of doubt He does. Nevertheless, "I'm always saying that the Supreme Fascist has this transfinite Book that contains the best proofs of all mathematical theorems, proofs that are elegant and perfect...You don't have to believe in God, but you should believe in the Book. " Paul Erd?s
>>560745140 He didn't condemn anyone. How do you know he did not try to save them? People make their own path in life. If they end up in hell it's because that was the natural consequences of their actions through the choices they have made.
God pleads with people to turn their life around. People choose not to. If he didn't create those people because he knew they were going to hell, that sounds like a dictator. Only creating perfection where nothing can possibly go wrong.
God did create perfection but human beings destroyed that perfection. You're blaming God for everything people do.
>>560745887 >I think you should check with your holy book, because it's pretty explicit about God knowing everything that's going to happen from beginning to end.
In my world, it is fine not to be a dogmatic idiot who takes everything literally. I do disagree with certain opinions and interpretations. If I hadn't been this way, I'd have remained a sheepish atheist my whole life. Thank God.
I explained my view, you disregard it as "But that's not what my literal reading of the book says and since yours isn't the lowest common denominator, you're wrong."
Have it your way but don't call me when it's time to swallow.
>>560745510 When I come before god, I will see my own face, the one source from which all people come, and I will judge myself. Our greatest critic is invariably ourselves, I will judge myself more harshly than another, and learn harder lessons as a result. The goal is not to become a god, the goal is to live a godly life so as to earn the favour of god (myself) and move on from this existence to another level, move from nursery to middle school. We were all created in the same moment, when the universe came into existence, and we willingly come down into this life to have experience and drama, for some purpose we will only understand when we go back to the origin. We are all divine, and we must know it. If you submit to something higher, you may live well, but you will not live for your own purpose, your whole life will be consumed by appeasing this greater other.
>>560746163 >>560746107 Are you implying that God could be unable to save people that he supposedly cares about?
Your version of God is internally inconsistent with your own beliefs. You're coming up with apologetic workarounds because the actual logic of your religion is flawed, because it was conceived by flawed men.
>>560745887 Are you stupid? No body goes to hell because of being in a different religion. They go to hell because of the choices that they make which affects other peoples lives negatively without correcting that choice. They don't say sorry to that person that they hurt and the sins build up over time.
The greatest goal a man can have is the good and honest betterment of all mankind, and all life in the universe, the spreading of life throughout the universe, to display high intelligence, resourcefullness and honest, good intentions. That is the reason we are here, we are not insignificant, we each created and shaped the universe and we continue to do so as we live, if we fail as a species, then so be it, it is our own fault for not having the wisdom to join in one great goal
This book says you can. That's the official Catholic Church's position on it. And yes, they know Christianity better than you because it is their job to study it. These people have numerous and all have Ph.D's in related matters: history, languages, theology, etc.
Let OP waste his time worshiping something that doesn't exist, who gives a shit. By believing in christianity, you are accepting information from the bible based on faith, why would I give a shit what you think? I'd rather ask someone else questions who doesn't believe in a 2000 year old book, because they would have 10x more credibility than you just off of that reason alone. Please just die out already, it would be more beneficial for you anyways since heaven would be a better place than Earth according to the God theory.
Okay, so can you back up this theory that God's knowledge and power is limited, and that's the only reason he doesn't save those who would otherwise be condemned by their own actions, or have you just pulled this out of your ass completely just right now?
>>560746425 He doesn't interfere with your free will. If he did you would be shouting dictator. Now you're shouting made up religion God. You're trying to dig a hole for religious people to fall in so you can trap them. A choice is a choice. No body is making you type these things. You're doing it because you made that choice.
You can't seem to understand what a choice is and what are the consequences. You're still blaming God for the choices people make.
My beliefs are not flawed. They are grounded on truth that comes from God. You're beliefs come from other people.
The solution to all our religious differences is for eveyone to go with individual spirituality, and never try to convince anyone that they are wrong. All of mankind's problems were created by man, and only man can solve these problems. The key is to accept unconditionally, the beliefs of others, never to try and change them. Let people change of their own free will. When we impress our will on others, we decide for them, and that leads to a weak individual, afraid of deciding on his own, fearing the wrath of the all powerful other. Man is only answerable to man, bad men will be punished, good men will be revered and thanked, this is the law of the world. Large scale religion, or atheism is the cancer that is killing freedom.
>>560747372 >They are grounded on truth that comes from God Prove that in any way god is real or that the information he gives is real. Any christian who actually has read the bible and understands their FAITH unlike you would understand that it's based on FAITH, not logic, thus why it's called FAITH. It makes me wonder how someone can be so stupid but then I have to remember I'm talking to a creationist and they choose to filter out things they don't want to hear in fear that it might stray them away from getting a handjob from god in the afterlife in heaven.
>>560748079 >The solution to all our religious differences is for eveyone to go with individual spirituality, and never try to convince anyone that they are wrong.
So if you believe in homeopathy, I shouldn't tell you what it really is?
I don't mind when atheists try to convince me I'm wrong. I haven't met a single atheist in this thread who tried to do that. What they did was cowardly throw a picture or a link and run away without arguing anything at all.
The reason is they don't care for me. I can tell when an atheist cares for me as a person: he gives it a serious try. The other reason is that those atheists don't know much about the case they argue and are soon defenceless.
>>560746647 It's much more difficult for you to be redeemed if you are from a different religion and especially a secular one. It makes it easy not to follow the laws that have been setup by God to govern us which makes it easier for you to fall.
A lot of people have been saved who were not Christians but that's because what they have done in life. The choices they made.
If you want to know what happens when we die and who is saved from what and so forth. Read the book "Get Us Out Of Here". It's about the souls in purgatory from different religious backgrounds who have not condemned themselves but were saved. Some at the last moment. Some even entered heaven and they were not even Christians.
We have Popes, Bishops and priests and Catholics and Christians in hell.
"Not everyone who says Lord to me will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
Doesn't matter what religion you're in. If you don't follow the laws that have been setup to govern us, you will not enter God's kingdom. Being in the right religion is having the right insurance. Have the wrong insurance, you're pretty much screwed if you break the rule. God guarantees his protection if you obey his commandments and follow his rules.
>>560748338 One of the problems is that people don't care for each other, they only look out for 'number one' I believe in the freedom to believe whatever you want, I disagree with trying to make other people believe it too. I believe in the power of the mind over the physical reality we see with our eyes. Science is increasingly revealing the fragility of existence, how matter, really is a lot of empty space, and the stuff that is there, is really an idea, energy moving through the higgs field, creating drag, which collapses the wave function.
So, in the end, it doesn't really matter what we believe or how we live, its all just an idea. I mean, I can't explain why my broken arm feels real when in fact its just an idea, I think man lacks the potential to understand fully.
All my learning has led to one conclusion, to live well, love others, and be proud of myself when I die.
>>560748136 Why don't you actually ask him if he's there or not. You're asking me to prove to you that God exist? Even if I could, which I can't, but even if I could what would you do then? Nothing.
You're still going to believe the things you do now. You're not going to change. That's just the way you are.
My belief in God is from experience in my life and the lives of others. You have no experience. Yet you still claim he doesn't exist. Experience will give you all the proof you need to understand why you are here and what is your purpose.
However, maybe you should look into "The Tilma". That's evidence that science has yet to explain. It doesn't even know what that material is.
I've explained these above. Creationism comes from reading the Bible literally which comes from Protestantism which comes from print: people started actually believing you could just read the Bible and you'd be an expert on Christianity. This leads to the lunacy we see in Creationism.
The Bible doesn't say that about the age of the earth.
Humans fell to Earth. In a paradise like state. We had to start from the beginning because everything was taken away. We could no longer see the supernatural mysteries. Animals now feared us. A disconnection has happened.
There are tribes in the Amazonian forest that practice incest because they have not evolved. Are they stupid? No. Adam and Ever were the same. Now we are big in population and knowledge and understanding, incest is biologically backwards.
We know that now. They didn't. Stop competing with the past.
How am I wasting my life exactly, if you don't mind specifying?
> Back then they also thought the earth was flat
They didn't, actually. They thought the world was immersed in infinite water and that the sky was a dome over them and the blue was water. They also thought water was under the ground, because of floods.
The idea that people thought the earth was flat is basically a myth used in the 19th century to create a flame war between science and religion. Middle-Aged people didn't think the earth was flat, as proven by paintings where earth is represented as a globe. Other parts of the bible describe the earth as a sphere.
>>560752903 If God created a soul and then destroys it, it means he is a dictator. He created it but he's not going to destroy it because he's not making it do what he wants. The soul is making it's own choices in life.
What God is like?
God is light. The light that shines in our lives and gives us a clear understanding of what is. Humans will never explain everything.
>>560752948 Not to mention the obvious: You look into the distance and the world has a horizon from curving. Any idiot with enough spare time and a decent education could figure that out. Humanity isn't full of fucking retards. Er, well, it wasn't back then, there's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
>>560753206 If God can't break the laws of logic then God isn't Omnipotent. Answering yes and not explaining is simply begging the question. If someone told me God could do that by creating an indestructible rock, then making a rock designed specifically to break that indestructible rock, I'd fucking believe God was omnipotent, but no one ever fucking did think to say that as an answer.
Something Perfect must also have a Perfect flaw, therefore even the flaw is perfect, inciting perfection existent, similar to how the concept of nothingness is a paradox, for if nothing exists, then nothing can't be what it is, no-thing.
Anon, I'm enjoying this conversation, it's nice seeing an intellectual religious person.
Whatever, they were plain stupid and had no knowledge... You're wasting youre life because dedicating your way of living to a fucking book, is just stupid. Tests suggest that Christians/Religious people are dumber then atheist.
And don't tell me about religion, because I went to a christian school for three years. I know all about these fucking people. Dumbest people on the earth.
>You look into the distance and the world has a horizon from curving. Any idiot with enough spare time and a decent education could figure that out. Humanity isn't full of fucking retards. Er, well, it wasn't back then, there's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
Yes and now. You can imagine other models where this gets different explanations. There's even a model where the earth is flat, but curved, like a freesbee. People did think of that and maintained the flat model.
>>560753636 >If God can't break the laws of logic then God isn't Omnipotent.
This amounts to asking whether the impossible is possible. It's not, not even to God. Omnipotence doesn't go beyond what's possible. If it does, then God CAN create a stone He can't lift and then be able to lift it too. Forego logic and nothing makes sense anymore.
>>560753345 We are not related because of the fact of thousands of years and years of separation and mixing with other people. No two people share the same DNA. Even those who are related.
Because of climates and the atmosphere of the land we live in, it has changed us biologically from the outside while on the inside we have changed based on mixing with different people over thousand of years.
Two parents with similar genes but not identical genes. Each set of genes will have faults. Genes from the same family or country will have the same faults that are passed down onto the children because nothing is stopping the faults from passing on. However, genes from different set of parents will also have their own faults but together those faults cancel each other out so the child inherits all of the good genes and non of the faulty ones. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's the simple version.
>>560753692 >Tests suggest that Christians/Religious people are dumber then atheist.
It all depends on where this is, how the religion works. Mormons in Utah have higher scores than atheists in other states and way higher than Baptists, for instance. Catholics score very high in general. Some religions focus on education, others don't. Unsurprisingly, the tests confirm this.
Test people in Russia during Communism and you'll realise atheism doesn't make people smarter. The simple explanation is that in the academy, most people are Liberals and against Christianity, so it's not promoted in any way, nor defended, nor even taught in any smart way. This is how you end up with ignorant atheists everywhere, despite their intelligence. The Horus/Christ stuff showed that most of these couldn't perform a simple Google search.
I love you religious folk. You go on about your fairy tales of how we were made out of sand for hours and when you can't explain something with your fairy tale you jump to solid science. Yet you can't accept the fact we evolved out of microrganisms but instead were made out of dust by a man in somewhere up there and magically appeared on earth.
>>560754186 The point of Omnipotence is 'All' powerful. As in power over 'All' What does All really mean in this ambiguous context? There's no explanation for context, it's simply not possible. And if something is impossible to something that is omnipotent, than that something isn't omnipotent.
Unless it's omnipotent over certain things, with an even higher power being omnipotent over the things that is impossible to our 'God'. Why exactly is the abrahamic God exalted as the single greatest and only God? Why is any God considered 'The' God?
We barely understand the workings of the Universe, maybe one day this shit will all make sense.
>>560754063 >Sounds an awful lot like Christianity, doesn't it?
It doesn't. Christ never advocated either of these things.
>Can you defend the mass murdering, torture and pure terror the church has brought upon the world?
If you think humans tortured people out of Christian intent, you are quite naive. The people who used religion for power didn't care much about what God actually wanted. This much is obvious if you're not obsessed with finding faults in Christianity where there are none.
Christ never commited a violent act against a person so I assume I shouldn't either. It's another question if I were to have to choose between killing a man who wants to kill my family. Forced to choose between certain death for one or the other, I would choose.
>>560754651 I should hope you know then that your personal inner voice is not (or should not) be enough to convince someone thinking rationally?
I have never experienced anything that I would consider supernatural. I don't hear voices in my head nor do I make sense of the supposed Lord's commands for us. It seems to me that most of the things people proclaim God to want is not consistent with an omnipotent, omniscient being.
Does this bother you? Do you think I am missing something? Have you ever considered if you're missing something?
A random ape, the result of millions of years of evolution on one of only 8 billion (estimated) planets in the known Universe. Stop assuming that because we exist as an intelligent species we are the center of the Universe and existance. I bet you are one of those people who assume that everything good happening to you is a gift from the magic man upstairs.
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