regarding the modern usage of martial arts forms

Forms help with technique, and they give people something to fall back on when for whatever reason, they can't think of combinations, or can't think of what to do next.

/asp/ hates on forms because /asp/ is stupid.

Forms are fine if you treat them the right way.

They're an utter waste of time.

>>838754

Because they're usually "combinations" you can't use in the real world, thrown with weird stances and nonexistent footwork, and with weird timing chosen for aesthetics and because that's what looks coolest when 50 people do it synchronized.

Forms != shadowboxing.

>>838762
>they give people something to fall back on when for whatever reason, they can't think of combinations, or can't think of what to do next

Bull fucking shit. You've never just jumped into something from a form in a fight.

Forms are distilled wisdom.

Probably pretty meh. People can probably find a way to make use. You could use them as a sort of fighting specific meditating I guess, if you're into that sort of thing, though you could do that with anything, not just forms.

>>838754
If you are too impatient to learn forms, you really aren't the sort of person who should be learning marital arts

>>838754
People do not like forms because in most arts today forms are tacked on, they are something you do to pass your belt test but have no relevance to sparring or the real world.

Now many imagine that this is because the men who created the forms were merely ignorant, I think its easier to imagine that the forms done today are simply not done in the same context as back then, and I think the historical records bare that out.

>>838869
This desu senpai.

And you know how people can tell you've never actually been in a fight in or out of the ring? You don't realize throwing combinations isn't something you think about, it's ingrained after hundreds and thousands of hours of mitt work, bag work, and sparring.

>>843365
>marital arts

Good thing we're talking about martial arts.

>>843415
>showing how little you know about fighting

>>838762
This and /thread anyone who disses forms merely choses not to understand their importance/are too lazy to do them. Dislike forms all you like you have to do them exactly(there is no martial art without prearranged movements of some kind)go find an art without them if you want. But theyare not useless or stupid and anyone who says so is talking out of their ass.

>>838834
If you believe that you have no business posting on a martial arts thread let alone one about forms, fuck off with your 'forms are a waste/stupid, etc.' meme already

>>838869
>Because they're usually "combinations" you can't use in the real world, thrown with weird stances and nonexistent footwork, and with weird timing chosen for aesthetics and because that's what looks coolest when 50 people do it synchronized.
This just proves you know fuck all about martial arts or boxing.

Are forms useful?

Well let me ask you first:
-Does doing an action repeatedly make you more adept at the action through muscle memory?
-Does doing a repetitive action improve the muscles associated with the action?

The answers are yes, and yes, therefor the main answer is yes.

In most forms, you can easily identify the purpose of the movement, and the muscles which are being trained.

But here's the thing, some forms are better than others. like 30% of all chinese and like 60% of all Japanese forms are just trying to be special snowflakes and have thrown in useless bullshit glamour moves. The real meat is the moves that are shared between forms. I won't even touch upon the Mcdojo market in the UK and the US that just grab random movements from various martial arts to look fancy.

also that being said, forms are next to useless without sparring with a few double sided exceptions, like Wing chun's "Perfect defense but I can't hurt you unless you fuck up" or Ba ji quens' "Here's my 16 wheel truck with a fist in front impression"

Here's the thing. So whatever you want to improve yourself. with any kind of training you'll be better off than someone with no training.

>>843923
Found the butthurt dancing queen.

Fuck off to martialartsplanet if you want a hugbox.

>>843924

Nope, sorry. Try again. I have plenty of experience in several martial arts. I haven't seen one yet where people's forms had any obvious influence on their fighting.

I don't even know what you could possibly think you're talking about with boxing. It has no forms.

>>843954
You say that like professional dancers aren't ten times healthier than the average 'merifat or Europoor.

>>844062
Firms and shadowing while similar are two different things. And accomplish different goals. They are also key to learning and practice of basics in each style

>>844062
Just like the delinquent kids cant spend years in high school and not learn enough to get a GED,
you can gain plenty of experience in several martial arts and learn nothing about martial arts.

>>838754
Define forms.

I do balintawak and we have twenty-four "forms" that we run through a few times each session.
Twelve of them are attack angles. And twelve are defense angles to the aforementioned attacks, each ending with a counter-blow to the temple.
We also do variations - The basic ones that you learn are "safety" strikes, which stop halfway to the target, which is conductive to our style of semi-sparring that we use to build reflexes.
A bit later we start doing the forms with power strikes, which are the proper attacks. Snap strikes are also a variation, as well as combinations of snap and safety strikes to learn control.

We also have three kinds of one-handed drills - Eight-count, nine-count and ten-count, named after the number of strikes they include.
The eight-count is the first you learn and it includes many of the basic movements that aren't included in our attack/defense forms. It's a good tool to get more familiar with the weapon. It's also used as a stand-in for techniques where you gain range (we generally focus on short range combat) and then have the instruction of "and then you fuck them up". Having a movement pattern learned for that situation removes a lot of uncertainty, which is nice in stressfull situations.

>>848561
Forms are really just an elaborate from of drilling. drilling can be static or dynamic, most people think of kata as static but they can really be both.

>>844222
lol. Not the guy you are responding too but he didn't mean literal dancing queens. He was comparing forms to dancing.

Forms are a fucking waste of time. Traditional arts have been BTFO by modern fighting styles time and time again. Fighting styles that dont use forms because they are a waste of time.

When where I train goes beyond 6-7 moves at a time I roll my eyes because in the arena shit is so fluid you cannot get past 2-3 moves (standing up) on average before the situation changes.

>>851682
Define traditional arts, many of them are modern synthesis of older arts. Most older arts at least in Japan either died with modernization or are preserved by a very small pool of practitioners

I doubt the forms of araki ryu are useless, nor forms in maniwa nen ryu. One line Araki ryu is well known for testing their material both in house and with other schools, and cross training in modern arts, yet their art is based around kata.
The nen ryu has been sparring for centuries yet they focus on kata as well.

Jigoro Kano preserved froms from older jujutsu styles he studied. Forms he considered to contain the principles of his own style.

The Japanese army found that officers trained in kendo couldn't cut properly, so they developed a system based on forms with a live blade.

My point is: when you say forms are useless, which forms, and for what purpose are they useless?

>>851682
>in the arena
Found your problem.

On the street it intimidates the lowlifes that are likely to fuck with you.
Most street fights don't even involve proper punches or any techniques at all.

The difference between street and arena fighting goes beyond the "lol no rulez" shit.
Aside from the likelihood of having multiple opponents, possibly armed, the biggest difference is that your opponents are unlikely to have any martial arts training. The most likely training is likely boxing, considering how mainstream it is. And boxers only have training to counter very specific moves.
Even a shitty but obscure art would be useful purely for the confusion/intimidation factor.

Then again, ten moves are obviously impractical. Breaking your enemy's legs thrice and both arms twice will just get you a jail sentence.
But that's not the point of multi-hit forms. Forms are different from hit combinations. They are ways of doing shit that goes BEYOND your average combat moves.
You get better by pushing yourself. A twenty hit combo that includes backflips and massive amounts of self-control is a good way to do that, even if not even half of the movements of the form are in any way useful.
Forms also allow teaching of nuances that would normally be hard to learn, by having parallels between different forms. Just little quirks of the art that you only take up because they make sense once you do a bunch of the associated forms, but wouldn't make sense if you learned them as isolated concepts.

I don't even care that this is essentially two different posts in one post. What the fuck did An Hiro do this time?

>>852008

>Then again, ten moves are obviously impractical. Breaking your enemy's legs thrice and both arms twice will just get you a jail sentence.

In many "blade arts" combinations are indeed usefull, because blade weapons have little impact and therefore you often don't even notice the damage until you faint. There are videos at LiveLeak of guys getting stabbed and keeping on fighting until they drop 30 seconds after the stab.

So you want to disable remove all "tools" of your opponent, which means cutting at least the weapon hand (against counters), cutting some artery (to make him bleed out fast) and maybe even immobilize him.. I'm not into this stuff, but that's the theory behind it and you'll find it in many differnt styles like italian knife fighting or FMA styles (i.e. sayoc kali).

Ironically those arts don't have forms..


>You get better by pushing yourself. A twenty hit combo that includes backflips and massive amounts of self-control is a good way to do that

I agree!

>Forms also allow teaching of nuances that would normally be hard to learn, by having parallels between different forms. Just little quirks of the art that you only take up because they make sense once you do a bunch of the associated forms, but wouldn't make sense if you learned them as isolated concepts.

I always thought that forms have overlap because they are "basic sparring patterns" that you can use if you have no idea at all what to do next. Think about the psychological aspect: most people (including martial artist) will just freeze. If you have a pre-set that you have done a thousand times you have a "fallback scenario". And since you have overlap you have certain points where you can alter your movements, like a decision tree..

It's like an "early form of sparring", and in weapon arts (which are generally more complicated than non-weapon arts) you can give "guidelines" for sparring. At least IMHO.

>>852061
Sayoc so has forms, eg the 3 of 9 template. Most Flip styles I've seen do. They just favor shorter, more modular forms, because those are a more efficient and effective way to train for the unpredictable requirements of a fight.

>>852061
>If you have a pre-set that you have done a thousand times you have a "fallback scenario". And since you have overlap you have certain points where you can alter your movements, like a decision tree..
Yeah, having forms basically allows you to modularize the art. You have the generalized basics that you learn ad nauseum and give you a good baseline, and then can expand into more specialized stuff that you can throw in when the situation fits.

It's also somehing you can do on your own, when you don't have a partner, to keep your skills sharp or get better at your stuff. The beauty of forms is that they are structured guidelines.

>>838869
>Because they're usually "combinations" you can't use in the real world, thrown with weird stances and nonexistent footwork, and with weird timing chosen for aesthetics and because that's what looks coolest when 50 people do it synchronized.
First and foremost I'm talking from a grappler's perspective - so we'll disregard the 50 people sync because irrelevant - but I've found the opposite to be true in most cases. Ie:
>throws are applicable
>simple stances
>footwork is directly transferable
>timing still has to be more correct because muscling things isn't an option

In my case, it has had an immediate positive impact in the throws I use for sparring as well, mostly because of the timing, footwork and small technical details that are easily skipped during regular practice. Other than that, it is sometimes overly formalized, emphasizing form over practical application.

>>843397
>People do not like forms because in most arts today forms are tacked on, they are something you do to pass your belt test but have no relevance to sparring or the real world.
That's my main problem with kata - it can easily become a loose addendum rather than a properly incorporated one.

>>852127

There is no comparison at all between judo kata and karate kata. Karate kata are pure useless fantasy and have no timing or footwork.

>>852494
Nice blanket statment

>>852582

I suspect I've already had it out with you on this subject. Sorry I've made you question your faith. Do a few dozen taikyokus until you feel better. Some day five muggers will attack you in an H pattern and you'll be glad you did.

>>852591
>implying i do a jma
Blanket statements just show a lack of acceptance, or even consideration towards other ideas.

I'm also not one to say forms are everything, they are just part of a complete system.

>>852008
>most likely training is likely boxing, considering how mainstream it is
It's far more likely to be krotty or TKD. The drop out rate at boxing gyms is hilarious once people figure out you need to take control of your own conditioning and getting hit hurts.

>>852642

Did forms for years and years. They didn't help anything and took time that could have been better spent. Plenty of martial arts are complete systems and don't have set pieces of choreography.

Here's a form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X7Onxeq4Pg

If you think taking the time to learn to do this will make you a better fighter than if you hadn't taken the time to do this, you're deluded.

>>852658
>condition the body to do combinations with foot work automatically
>you can always work on it because you don't need a partner

You couldn't find parallels between the forms you were taught and the techniques that were in them, therefore EVERY other person must be doing forms so the can feel better about themselves.

I'm not ever a fan of karate kata but damn that guy had precision and was intense in each movement he did. Would you rather fuck with him or some random on the streets that most likely has never had training.

"Plenty of martial arts are complete systems and don't have set pieces of choreography."
Choreography: Sequence of steps and movements
If you drill it, it can be considered choreographed

>>852658
> Plenty of martial arts are complete systems and don't have set pieces of choreography.

Well plenty of martial arts don't have Chinese or Japanese style kata, though i cant think of any martial art that doesn't contain choreographed training drills.

As for karate kata it is true that sparring rarely looks like kata. though that's more a historical curiosity within karate's development from Te than an argument against kata. It is a development mirrored in several arts which kept certain traditional elements but drastically changed the goals and teaching methods.

>>852673

That footwork is nothing you do in sparring. Every movement was too artificial to be applicable.

Is it so hard to believe someone could spend years sincerely doing kata and still reject them?

>>852673

Oh, and yeah, I'd rather fuck with him because he actively trains to move in a way that won't work.

Peyton Quinn said it best when he called martial arts "ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems."

>>852707
>im not a fan of karate kata
>that footwork is nothing you do in sparring

You're correct, I do cma forms. Even then most "traditional" schools scoff at our forms because we are constantly updating them.

Do I look the same when I do forms as when I spar? Fuck no.
Forms teach weight distribution and how to move that weight without creating a opening for your opponent to exploit, as well as the aforementioned. I still use those weight distributions and steps while sparring.

It's also no hard to believe in someone that has sincerely trained forms and for them to reject them. What works for some doesn't work for others, that just a fact of life. My question becomes how many places that have taught forms have you tried, or is your only experience training forms coming from a single school.

>>852081

Hehe, you're absolutely right. I forgot about theses templates..

I train in Escrima and if you look at it like this we also have "Forms" like: strike / block / block / strikestrikestrikestrikestrike


>>852102

> ad nauseum

Whoa whoa, is this still 4chan, right?

>The beauty of forms is that they are structured guidelines.

Absolutely.


>>852494

>Karate kata are pure useless fantasy and have no timing or footwork.

But Karate has not only Kata, but also Kihon and Kumite!

Also Kata is a nice way to preserve movements. Like even when you do a full contact style with emphasis on Kumite and only little Kata, you'll still learn Hammerfists and chops to the head and neck - even though they are definately forbidden in sparring and competitions.

It's a compromise between making your students good fighters (by lots of sparring with practical "sport" movements) and tradition (reapeating old fashioned "2deadly" movements in forms, so you COULD theoretically use them, if you wanted to).

>>852722

I've earned rank in isshinryu, Shotokan, kenpo, wushu, and seidokaikan. None of them have worthwhile forms. None of them result in fighting that contains any elements of the forms.

>>853081
Anything you haven't trained with aliveness is something you're counting on doing right the first time ever when you really need it. You'll still be a novice at it. I contend that the styles don't really contain the chops you like so much at all.

>>853205

Oh, and taekwondo, but it was ITF, so who cares?

Think about it this way: the "hidden grappling" in karate styles everybody started finding around 1994 was "hidden" in the katas. Unfortunately nobody was able to take it out of the katas and actually make it work anywhere. Why? Because solo or pair compliant choreography can't be your sole means of practice. You can introduce techniques that way, but at some point you have to take them out into the ring and spar with them or you don't really know them because you don't know the subtleties of the technique, or what effect to expect.

Neck chops, eye pokes, and the deadly snap kick to the knee are prime striking examples of this. Unfortunately for most styles of karate the entire catalog of grappling techniques falls into this category.

>>853081
>Whoa whoa, is this still 4chan, right?
We used to have much better grammar before /v/ exploded, newfags flooded in from various publically well-known stunts and memes and the mods went apeshit on their various pet crusades.

>>853250
Chanology was a mistake.

>>853205

>Anything you haven't trained with aliveness is something you're counting on doing right the first time ever when you really need it.

You sound like that namefag.. Did you train in Aikido and Capoeira by any chance?


>I contend that the styles don't really contain the chops you like so much at all.

People aren't stupid. If I know how to throw a punch at the chest I can also throw a punch to the nose. Maybe I won't be familiar with all counters or the finer details, but a fast and powerfull punch is a fast and powerfull punch.

Also I like making a distinction between sport and "life or death fight". I have abolutely no problem with training knife stabs in a non-alive manner, because why would I stab someone? That's silly. But I also enjoy doing lowkicks full power because I know I (usually) don't hurt my opponent with this.

>but at some point you have to take them out into the ring and spar with them or you don't really know them because you don't know the subtleties of the technique, or what effect to expect.

Yes. But we have no reason to belive they weren't applied in an aliveness way at some point in history. Mind that Karate was actually used to fight guys in Okinawa, the movement's didn't came out of nowhere but were meant as "best practices" by some old fighters.

>Unfortunately for most styles of karate the entire catalog of grappling techniques falls into this category.

I think we could decide anytime to train them alive to make them work again..

Check the Youtube channel of "Oneminutebunkai", they give explanations for many ancient Karate moves:
>https://www.youtube.com/user/Oneminutebunkai/videos

I also bought the Bubishi (a very old manual from the beginnig of Karate). While I found it not as usefull and interesting as expected, it's still a nice read and has a lot of stuff I would consider "stand up grappling".

But this theoretical, nowadays there are amazing grappling systems and we'll probably never know how well it worked..

File: holyland-2595533.jpg (183KB, 800x1174px) Image search: [Google]

183KB, 800x1174px

>>852591
>I suspect I've already had it out with you on this subject.
Yeah you have. Not with him. Me.
>Sorry I've made you question your faith.
You didn't make me question anything. You used Ad Hominems and other logical fallicies that discredited your arguments, kept spouting horseshit that contradicted historical evidence, the reality of the inclusion of forms.solo patterns in almost every martial art in some way as well as their transmission, development and practice from older times to the modern era
>Do a few dozen taikyokus until you feel better.
I will,and do formsi know, every time I train.
Some day five muggers will attack you in an H pattern and you'll be glad you did.
Some day I might be in a situation I cannot otherwise get myself out of, and yes, I will be glad I drilled my basics/stances and know them well enough to add extra advantages to me surviving
>>844222
>>852642
>implying i do a jma
I'm Shotokan Karateka, he "argued", (read pulled shit out of his ass and continually flung)with. He's been shitting on forms since the QTDTOThread.

>>853653

I've been shitting on forms since this board was founded. Get with the program.

>>853393
Wouldn't it be easier to just put on the name everybody whines about? I wouldn't have to type the same thing all the time and you wouldn't have to read it.

I'll watch the videos tonight, but I'm going to guess they start with a kata and end with a compliant demonstration. I've had decades of that already.

>>853680
>I've been shitting on forms since this board was founded. Get with the program.
At least you admit your a shitposter, indicating that no one should take anything you say seriously. Not that it wasn't obvious

>>853712

What I'm saying about forms is completely serious. I advocate for aliveness. Forms are the exact opposite of aliveness.

It's ridiculous that you think what I'm saying is absurd, unique, or controversial in the second decade of the twenty first century.

>>853727
>What I'm saying about forms is completely serious.
If that were true you would have thought harder and done better research instead of 'hurr durr forms are shit' and 'stop liking what I don't like'
>I advocate for aliveness. Forms are the exact opposite of aliveness.
>what is full contact sparring (which incorporates the basics, such as forms, you learn into the closest thing you can get outside of a fight/match
>what is yakusoku kumite,etc.
>what is bunkai

>It's ridiculous that you think what I'm saying is absurd, unique, or controversial in the second decade of the twenty first century.
Aliveness isn't. Your constant shitting on forms, lumping them all together and stating their useless as if it makes you the arbiter of the usefulness of all forms in all of martial arts. Also your implication that you somehow know better than the people who developed and fought with them on a nearly constant basis. Is warfare ad fighting for you life alive enough for you? Is being in a situation where you cant afford to give a crap about every nuance of what you trained in, or whether you are 'ready', whether you should have done this or that etc.alive ? Is that really the thing that will matter when someone's about to bet the living shit out of you and otherwise do horrible things to you that leave you in the ICU if not dead? When I am ever in a full blown situation like that( and believe you me I have been quite close) the absolute last thing I am going to be worried about is whether the Taikyoku or Heian Kata was 'useless' or sucked ass and thank fuck that I drilled the shit out of everything I possibly could to give me an advantage over whatever shitlicker's are trying to do me in.

>>853769

There was never a time when karate armies fought wars with their bare hands. How old do you imagine these folk dances you like so much are exactly?

>>853226
>Why? Because solo or pair compliant choreography can't be your sole means of practice. You can introduce techniques that way, but at some point you have to take them out into the ring and spar with them or you don't really know them because you don't know the subtleties of the technique, or what effect to expect.

Solo kata are ideally just your paired techniques done solo, which admittedly is not the case in karate. But as for your assertion that paired kata cant give you the subtleties is very open to debate. Specifically I think your conception of what two man exercises are is limited

Some of that paired material is structured and taught in such a way as to put the student under a great deal of stress, Its not simply assumed his teacher will let him "win" the sequence. In some schools this naturally moves into more and more freedom. All of this naturally involves an element of danger to both practitioners, which again is necessary.

>>838869
>You've never just jumped into something from a form in a fight.
Not him, but I find my self doing this all the time in sparring.

>>853805
Karate was developed and practiced by the Pechin, Okinawa`s warriors class. And judging by forms such as Kusanku or Seisan, quite old with roots reaching back farther to old Te, Northern Shaolin and Fijian White Crane

>>853892

Yeah, after they got their weapons taken away.

Who gives a shit about its roots in Shaolin and White Crane? I don't believe Shaolin myths either.

>>853769
>When I am ever in a full blown situation like that( and believe you me I have been quite close)

Oh, I definitely believe your skills are untested.

>>853878
Tell us the story.

>>853995
>Who gives a shit about its roots in Shaolin and White Crane? I don't believe Shaolin myths either.
Seeing as you have not heeded historical evidence nor the development of martial arts, made clear by your dismissal of forms, that does not surprise me, it is common for your ilk to deny history and established fact.
>Oh, I definitely believe your skills are untested.
More of your bullshit evaluation of my skills you have never witnessed? You should worry about your own skills, especially ,as I said before, if you fight as you debate: i.e. they're piss poor half assed and weak with nothing behind it and liable to get your ass handed to you. Mine are just fine.

>>854981

That doesn't even make sense: "if you fight as you debate." If you fight like you write, inserting the wrong homophone into every other sentence, then I guess you throw a right when you should throw a left all the time and miss your opponent completely. See how dumb that is?

We are not debating according to any established rules. Your repeated use of the fallacy fallacy is pitiful. Nobody but you gives a shit about ad hominem attacks.

You make assertions with nothing to back them up. There's no "established fact" that anybody learned how to fight from doing katas. It doesn't matter that old karate guys were a little better than non-karate guys when karate was the only game in town. Shit, bronze swords were the shit back when the other guys had wooden spears. It doesn't mean bronze is a good idea now.

Here we are on the last day of 2015 and I'm arguing with a proponent of dry land swimming. Fuck that. You're a dinosaur. You're suited to nothing more than babysitting kids after school and helping weaboo neckbeards get their Japan fix.

Martial arts are better now than they have ever been at any time in the past, and it sure as fuck isn't because we started making up new forms.

Forms are cool for showing off what you learned, but the moment you actually have to fight someone remembering how to do a 10-30 step form/combination is going to get you knocked out.

>>855072
>10-30 step
I always hate this, grappling seems more complicated and has more little steps then strikes and kata moves yet they can do their moves without thinking I don't quite get it how grapplers memorize their moves and every tiny little step.

>>855077

They train it alive with resisting opponents and their moves flow naturally because they're guiding themselves AND their opponents.

Your opponents in a striking situation aren't going to respond to everything the way you were told they should when you learned the choreography.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q17UBJmhgA

The above is pure science fiction, but people who spend years getting good at it think they're getting good at fighting. It's so obvious it didn't even need to be said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3UnGiVcKJk

How much MORE of a fantasy must it be to this solo form and think you're learning to fight?

It took me a decade and a half of dedicated study (over the course of which I won over three dozen trophies in kata competitions) to understand why katas are useless. A confrontational asshole like myself now would never have convinced my younger self on his own, but it would have been a start.

>>855077
The real answer is NOBODY is doing what you think they're doing: pulling rationally calculated responses to a threat out of memory. Katas and prearranged kumite sequences are fake, and give you unrealistic expectations.

>>853727
>Forms are the exact opposite of aliveness.
You can't do aliveness without a training partner.

You can do forms without a training partner.

Go figure.

>>855072
>remembering how to do a 10-30 step form
>remembering
>form
The entire point is that you do them often enough that you don't NEED to remember.

Granted, stress drills will have much quicker payoffs in that regard, but if you repeat something all the fucking time, it will sure as fuck be the first thing you do when you are at a loss as to how the fuck your are supposed to react.

Practice forms all the time and you start breathing the art. It's like the mental conditioning done in university courses, where you adopt the mindset of whatever field you are learning about. Suddenly everything is seen through the lense of the art, because adapting the forms to roughly similar movements is easier on your mind than making up movements on the spur.
This goes from walking, to running, to acting in a fight.

>>855062
>>855094
>That doesn't even make sense: "if you fight as you debate." If you fight like you write, inserting the wrong homophone into every other sentence, then I guess you throw a right when you should throw a left all the time and miss your opponent completely. See how dumb that is?
(cont.)

>We are not debating according to any established rules.
Again pick fucking one. What I posted In the QTDDTOThread
> rules are a foundation of debate/argumentation, whether formal or not
Your the only one disregarding rules, you've used Ad Homenim's/fallicies, etc. before and are doing it again And nice projection
Either quit sucking ass with shit debate skills and bring something of value or concede defeat and gtfo.

>Your repeated use of the fallacy fallacy is pitiful.
There's alot more in your shit arguments aside from fallicies that prove your 'forms are shit' conclusion false, those fallacies reinforce the wrongness of the your argument as your conclusion has been debunked to start with. Just because your butthurt about forms and haven't found a use for them/don't like them, doesn't mean their useless and, they in fact are not, You just want to force your lack of respect for forms on everyone else.
>Nobody but you gives a shit about ad hominem attacks.
Then why did you use them? And they are just another thing that proves you can't debate and have nothing to back up your bullshit abou forms. Why do you think logical fallicies even exist, theyre faulty lines of reasoning that don't prove anything are shit at backing up anything and what idiots resort to when theirarguments are neither founded in any premise of logic, truth or reason. In short it's what people with no sustace use to argue because they know their wrong,foolishly keep arguing with it thinking it makes them right all the while it just showcases why they're wrong and nothing they say should be taken seriously if their going to default to whining and insults.

>>855847
>..(cont.)That doesn't even make sense: "if you fight as you debate." If you fight like you write, inserting the wrong homophone into every other sentence, then I guess you throw a right when you should throw a left all the time and miss your opponent completely. See how dumb that is?
(cont.)
That is absolutely a correct analogy of if your shit debate skills mirrored your fighting skills
This is the last thing you posted n the QTDDTOThread,
> You're an idiot and will never learn. You're not as good as you could have been if you had trained better, but you will never know. The good news is MMA exists and fewer people drink the Kool Aid now. We're learning and evolving and you and other people who like to LARP in pajamas will be left behind.I won't convince you in a way you'll admit, but you'll never step into a ring with someone who hasn't wasted all that time, because you know enough to be afraid to do so. I'm not going to check back in on this thread, so feel free to spout some MAP-worthy nonsense that will convince nobody who has really trained,
This is part of what I posted as a response
that discredit your arguments.
>You're not as good as you could have been if you had trained better, but you will never know.
So, I, the one who started, progressed and continued to this very day my martial arts training, don't know if I'm as good as I could have been? If I'm at my best? That's a pile of horse shit. I damn well do know that I'm at my best and if I'm not I can always get better. No one knows that better than me and seeing as how you have never met me nor seen me train, you cannot possibly know or say that. Even those Ive studied under have told me Ive gotten good. If I'm going to get better I don't and cant believe that I don't know I'm my best,because it's wrong. (cont.)

>>855851
>...(cont.)You're not as good as you could have been if you had trained better, but you will never know.
So, I, the one who started, progressed and continued to this very day my martial arts training, don't know if I'm as good as I could have been? If I'm at my best? That's a pile of horse shit. I damn well do know that I'm at my best and if I'm not I can always get better. No one knows that better than me and seeing as how you have never met me nor seen me train, you cannot possibly know or say that. Even those Ive studied under have told me Ive gotten good. If I'm going to get better I don't and cant believe that I don't know I'm my best,because it's wrong.
>The good news is MMA exists and fewer people drink the Kool Aid now. We're learning and evolving and you and other people who like to LARP in pajamas will be left behind.
Again, MMA is descended and derived from from TMA and without the latter their would not be the former. And even more Ad homenims with lame nutriding
>>I won't convince you in a way you'll admit,
Because your wrong
(cont.)

>>855853
>...(cont.)I won't convince you in a way you'll admit,
Because your wrong
> but you'll never step into a ring with someone who hasn't wasted all that time, because you know enough to be afraid to do so. I'm not going to check back in on this thread, so feel free to spout some MAP-worthy nonsense that will convince nobody who has really trained.
So it's not a personal choice of whether I want to fight in MMA, Kickboxing, etc. Nor is it that I actually plan to at least once fight in some gloved/ringed contest. Nor is it any other highly likely option out of many others, I just must be afraid. Nice projection again, the only one who's proved themselves a coward is you, that's why your not coming back to this thread. You have nothing of value to add, the rest of your arguments have no value, and consist of either fallacies such as Ad Hominems or arguments along the lines of 'stop liking what I don't like'. If you fight anything like you argue, you'd throw half-assed weak shit, away like a coward and cry when you got beat. Your dong everyone in this thread who knows what their talking about a favor, their posts show they've actually trained, while judging by your posting style I'm highly skeptical you have. If you can't take the opinions of others and criticism, I doubt you have the fortitude and guts to stick it out with anything remotely 'difficult ' or that requires actual effort, it's practically mutually inclusive with those of your ilk. You should do the rest of those who actually no shit on this board a favor and don't bother posting on all of /asp/if the only way you can post is pull shit out of your ass and fling it on this board. Nice Ad Hominem thrown at nearly everyone in this thread as well, as everyone except you truly must not have trained. You feel free to keep being a pussy ass bitch as it's been made clear by your posts it's probably the only thing your good at. It damn sure isn't arguing or martial arts. (cont.)

>>855854
You got butthurt again, insulted me while discrediting your arguments more and gave yourself an out like a bitch to deny any responsibility or admit you were wrong. If those were fighting skills they be half assed and shitty with cheap one liners and verbal shots thrown as you were running away because you knew you were outmatched and didn't want to get your ass beat, as if you weren't getting it kicked all over the place already.

And as for,
>You make assertions with nothing to back them up.
Nice projection again
>There's no "established fact" that anybody learned how to fight from doing katas.
Then please elaborate on why they are still seen as a cornerstone of Karate and why fighters and modern martial artists still bother with them,as well as why they were transmitted and practiced until this very day. You can't and haven't so far. And you never be alble to because your wrong, that's fucking why
>It doesn't matter that old karate guys were a little better than non-karate guys when karate was the only game in town.
Okinawan warriors regularly fought against other Pechin and even Japanese Karateka held multiple style competition's among differing Karate school's. There werealso competitions with ouside styles. (Like Kyokushin vs. Muay Thai) So no, The entirety of Karate's development as well as completion does not amount to just 'old karate guys were a little better than non-karate guys'.

>Shit, bronze swords were the shit back when the other guys had wooden spears. It doesn't mean bronze is a good idea now.
(cont.)
Here we are on the last day of 2015 and I'm arguing with a proponent of dry land swimming. Fuck that. You're a dinosaur. You're suited to nothing more than babysitting kids after school and helping weaboo neckbeards get their Japan fix.(cont.)

Martial arts are better now than they have ever been at any time in the past, and it sure as fuck isn't because we started making up new forms.
(cont.)

>>855062
>>855866
>(cont.)Here we are on the last day of 2015 and I'm arguing with a proponent of dry land swimming. Fuck that. You're a dinosaur. You're suited to nothing more than babysitting kids after school and helping weaboo neckbeards get their Japan fix.
More Ad Hom's and,
>It's 2015
Way to be a fucking memelord
>Martial arts are better now than they have ever been at any time in the past,
Proof?, I'll give you that their at least as good as they were, but better?, there's not a lot of what's got on today that wasn't going on back then.
>and it sure as fuck isn't because we started making up new forms.
Ill give you Taikyoku as being relatively new, but they where only introduced to simplify the Pinan/Heian Kata (originate from Okinawa introduced, by Itosu), and still contain in a simplified form the basics of the style as well as all of it's premier movements. As for others such as Kusanku, Seisan, Suparinpei, etc. are all far older.

As for this as well,
>>855094
>It took me a decade and a half of dedicated study (over the course of which I won over three dozen trophies in kata competitions) to understand why katas are useless.
No, it took you that time to understand how it wasn't for YOU/how much YOU didn't like it. A very far cry from being useless.
A confrontational asshole like myself now would never have convinced my younger self on his own, but it would have been a start.
Again, for YOU. The fact that your a self proclaimed 'confrontational asshole' who's shit at driving home points in any meaningful way/logcally debating would probably be why
>The real answer is NOBODY is doing what you think they're doing: pulling rationally calculated responses to a threat out of memory.
So please give us all your 'divine revelation' of what every single person (Pechin included) who has ever done kata are doing wrong and what they SHOULD be doing. ...(cont.)...
Katas and prearranged kumite sequences are fake, and give you unrealistic expectations. (cont.)

>>855866

You don't get to claim kyokushin as proof that zero-aliveness training has value.

I choose to respond to nothing else you've said because it clearly drives you up the fucking wall, as evidenced by the fact that you dug up a thread I won't even bother to go back and read to repost your comments from there.

You know, if the r9k bot were released on this board there'd be about four threads left. Three would be rassling and one would be about yo-yos.

You'll learn nothing until you are ready. EVERYBODY realizes kata aren't for him in the long run. The unlucky ones just die first. I'm going back to Bullshido for a while where sanity is the norm and not the exception. Come by when you're ready for that fight you're totally gonna have some day. We'll steer you in the right direction.

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>>855888
>(cont.)The real answer is NOBODY is doing what you think they're doing: pulling rationally calculated responses to a threat out of memory. So please give us all your 'divine revelation' of Katas and prearranged kumite sequences are fake, and give you unrealistic expectations.
what every single person (Pechin included) who has ever done kata are doing wrong and what they SHOULD be doing. As well as how no one is doing this,
>pulling rationally calculated responses to a threat out of memory
because while in a spar/fight/dangerous situation, you won't be pausing and going step by step in the thinking process of your moves(if your not good enough by then your going tho get fucked up), all of the training you've done so far ad everything you've drilled, incuding kata, were to help you 'pull out' that information (such as 'muscle memory', etc.) for exactly such an event. It's literally what you spent all that time training for.
And this,
>Katas and prearranged kumite sequences are fake, and give you unrealistic expectations.
Please do also tell how one of the conerstone's of Karate as well as valued training device for ,and drilling of, basics which is implemented in sparring and nearly every movement you make in Karate 'fake'. If you mean not exactly 100% how you (especially personally)always do it ( and you can do so btw, i.e, throw choku zuki from a zenketsu) in full contacts sparring,then ho-ly shit, it's like not everyone does everything exactly the same and it is ultimately the Karatekas personal choice how to implement in a match, what they have learned, but every single bit of it will stem from all of the basics (including forms) they drilled and all that time they spent training

>>855928
>You don't get to claim kyokushin as proof that zero-aliveness training has value.
And where did I claim any such thing?
I was responding to your argument that,
>It doesn't matter that old karate guys were a little better than non-karate guys when karate was the only game in town.,
My response:
>Okinawan warriors regularly fought against other Pechin and even Japanese Karateka held multiple style competition's among differing Karate school's. There werealso competitions with ouside styles. (Like Kyokushin vs. Muay Thai) So no, The entirety of Karate's development as well as completion does not amount to just 'old karate guys were a little better than non-karate guys'.
And Iv'e dealt with this aliveness shit.
>I advocate for aliveness. Forms are the exact opposite of aliveness.
>what is full contact sparring (which incorporates the basics, such as forms, you learn into the closest thing you can get outside of a fight/match
>what is yakusoku kumite,etc.
>what is bunkai

>I choose to respond to nothing else you've said because it clearly drives you up the fucking wall, as evidenced by the fact that you dug up a thread I won't even bother to go back and read to repost your comments from there.
I choose to respond to nothing else you've said because it clearly drives you up the fucking wall, as evidenced by the fact that you dug up a thread I won't even bother to go back and read to repost your comments from there. (cont.)

>You know, if the r9k bot were released on this board there'd be about four threads left. Three would be rassling and one would be about yo-yos.
And this has to do with what?

You'll learn nothing until you are ready.
EVERYBODY realizes kata aren't for him in the long run.

The unlucky ones just die first. I'm going back to Bullshido for a while where sanity is the norm and not the exception. Come by when you're ready for that fight you're totally gonna have some day. We'll steer you in the right direction.
(cont.)

>>855929

Hell, I'll poke you with a stick one more time:

The Pechin fighting hundreds of years ago AND doing kata doesn't excuse you and your fellow dancers only doing kata now. It's a thing they did. They probably also believed in all kinds of magic and herbs and shit that we know don't do anything now.

I've asked you to show some people who fight like they do kata. You haven't. You name drop ancient dead motherfuckers who history says were badass and bring up their practices to suggest that those practices were what made them badass, but that's just a correlation.

>>855866
>>855943
>(...cont.)I choose to respond to nothing else you've said because it clearly drives you up the fucking wall, as evidenced by the fact that you dug up a thread I won't even bother to go back and read to repost your comments from there
No, you choose to respond to nothing else I've said because you don't have anything substantive to add, refuse to admit your wrong and take no responsiblility,your giving yourself another out just like you did before and are doing now.
>You'll learn nothing until you are ready. EVERYBODY realizes kata aren't for him in the long run.
So again you speak for everyone when you can at most only speak for yourself. I didn't know you were the god of Karate/Martial arts and as the arbiter or everything right and wrong related to them.
>The unlucky ones just die first.
Oh yes, I'm sure everyone who did kata did because you said so
>I'm going back to Bullshido for a while where sanity is the norm and not the exception.
Alright then leave like a pussy. Like I said, just giving yourself an out and running away. Take your ball and go the fuck home Cartman.
Come by when you're ready for that fight you're totally gonna have some day. We'll steer you in the right direction.
I lurk and read it already. And theres nowhere you could 'steer' me I'm not already aware of

>>855985

Ah. You're in the denial stage of Bullshido. "They're not talking about me."

We are. We are talking about you.

>>855964
I would never expect someones sparring or fighting to look exactly like kata, which are purposefully stylized to force a student to accomplish certain things.. but I will offer this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ir79bkOgzc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw6xtp6dLu8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrokiAVPbJA

>>856035
>I would never expect someones sparring or fighting to look exactly like kata, which are purposefully stylized to force a student to accomplish certain things.. but I will offer this

We're not talking about swords at all here, but fine...

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ir79bkOgzc

fully compliant practice

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw6xtp6dLu8

fully compliant practice

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrokiAVPbJA

After all those practice sword cuts they hit one another with kendo sticks exactly like they would if they had done none of the stuff in the first two videos.

You're really proving my point here.

You did remind me that I need to go back and watch that other anon's One Minute Bunkai videos though.

>>856050
>After all those practice sword cuts they hit one another with kendo sticks exactly like they would if they had done none of the stuff in the first two videos.


not really, for one thing they keep the same basic footwork they do in the last two, as well as the same big cuts rather than the snappy cuts seen in kendo. They use the same thrusts and cuts you see in videos of that school doing kata.

>>856065

Give me a time on the video, because I'm seeing snappy kendo whacks.

>>856065
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrokiAVPbJA

The sequences starting at 045 are good examples. They cut like they do here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ir79bkOgzc
about 0:40 is a good point to compare their bokken cuts with their shinai cuts


consider the point around 0:30 and beyond of this 8th dan kendo shiai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMxlqayAwG8

The slow motion at around 1:00 shows the differences very well. The kendoka use heavy levering to delver a very quick cut.

It should be noted that those kendo style cuts actually work better with a shinai because of its length and light weight, so do to the kind of cuts the rishin people do is going against your bodies natural inclination

>>855964
>only doing Kata now
My school practiced Kata,bunkai, kumite(full contact and yakusoku,etc.)along with standard training, hardly only kata, good job shoe horning all Shotokan as if you can't train anything else or spar full contact/bare knuckle. If any school only does Kats and doesn't spar not do anything else it's a mcdojo, whether WTF or anywhere else.

I've also given you an example of where movements from Kats can be clearly seen from sparring,which I was and am still under no obligation to do. Bare knuckle point sparring. You dismissed it.

>>856154

I have done years of bareknuckle sparring and seen no kata in it. Why do you post kendo videos and not unarmed? Having trouble finding it?

>>856154

I pigeonholed all Shotokan because kata, yakusoku skits, and dipped foam point sparring is the standard for Shotokan. Of course on the internet you always meet someone from the legendary 1% of schools that train with a combination of the aliveness of an elite MMA gym and the old school street cred of ninth generation warrior monks.

>>856174
> Why do you post kendo videos and not unarmed?

Because I am not the karate guy, but you made general points on kata and I was bored.

>>856197

My kata arguments are for karate kata, kung fu forms, and taekwondo poomse. Judo and the koryu whose kata are closer to what karate people call yakusoku kumite are too different to be covered by the same arguments.

>>856139
You're right, I can see it. It's like the kendo player's shinai is rotating around a point only 15 or 20 cm from the tip while the first guy's is rotating around a point between his hands. At a glance it looks like a similar snap.

I've only taken a couple of kendo classes and one shinkendo seminar with Obata's group in Atlanta. Too expensive for me and not enough applicability to daily life. It's interesting though.

>>856244
fair enough

>>856186
>The standard for Shotokan.
>The standard for shit mcdojo shotokan. FTFY
There`s an example one poster made along time ago on either bullshido or sherdog about how a Shotokan school sparred bareknuckle with a Kyokushin school. A whole style can't be blamed for something easily fixable. If you think there's a deficiency in sparring or what have you fix it or you can always do something else. But a whole style is not at fault, a shit bastardized taught only to make a quick buck version if a `style` by some fuckwit with shitty credentials who has no business teaching is what's wrong. That's why you vet styles/schools. Make your style something you can personally use, do something else if you want but don't dare blame the style (especially an established and tested one) before doing what you can. Looking for something to blame without taking responsibility or having agency is the realm of the weak
And as for,
>>8556015
My denial, like the cognitive dissonance you falsely stated and failed to prove is non existant.

>>856274

No True Shotokan sucks like that, huh?

Here's the first google video result for Shotokan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz2I0jTYeEU

That's what it is. But like I said, you're one of the 100% of internet commenters who train at the 1% of karate schools that are totes authentic and awesome. Okay, buddy.

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Its probably been commented on already more than likely in good detail, but I write this post to at least express my opinion on the topic since I enjoy hearing everyone's thoughts:

Ideally, initially, forms are to give the student a very basic understanding on the framework of application for particular movements, strikes and blocks. Each form serve serves as a visualization as to what is expected for a student to understand at a certain point in training (namely in a martial art like Tae Kwon Do). To have a routine to practice, aside from individual techniques, serves to give the student somewhat more of a grip on how what they're being taught is ideally to be executed. However, it's very blatant that in seldom any occasion could any student fall back on any form purely on its own in regards to self defense or combat. This is why a plethora of forms are instructed, most often than not with aspects of each form connecting the previous form and the next form - in the sense of finding the sum of a math equation, each form is to help serve as a part of a formula, just as the individual techniques themselves, to help solve whatever issue the student may encounter. Unfortunately, this is all drowned out by superfluous instruction or overshadowed by more immediate applications for practice (i.e. kicking drills or sparring). Physically speaking, our bodies work in a way where we can be trained to respond to a certain situation in a certain way. If an opponent were to strike from a certain angle with a certain attack, we may just reflexively respond accordingly. The forms we learn serve to instill these instincts, again, just as much as individual practice on particular movements and the like.

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>>856301

On a different level, the forms of martial arts in which we practice serve as visual representations of the aspects of our martial art. In most, if not all forms, there is a certain deliberate number of movements and directions the student moves, both for a practical purpose, but also because of symbol. For example, Taegeuk Il Jang in Tae Kwon Do represents , the element of heaven. While there is the basic pomsae, it serves as an introduction; this form could be equated to the origin. This is shown through the simple movements of the student. Later on, another form is demonstrated purely as a means of defense, where the form after is the same form as the prior but depicted as fiery and offensive. These forms depict the very nature of our martial arts: volatile in combat, capable of causing harm, yet tame when under pressure and capable of bringing peace. It is a sense of tradition and serve as a history of the art. It is a representation of one's self and reflective of one's technique in motion.

Some martial arts may not require forms, and that's perfectly fine. It's how they're designed and there is no practical need for forms. In martial arts like Tae Kwon Do, the forms are essential to the identity of the martial art, just as kicking and punching is to the art of kicking and punching, simply. It's not that any and every student is expected to understand and revere the meanings of the forms or appreciated them equally, but they do in fact serve a purpose. They help teach the logic and spirituality of the martial art to the student, and when the worst instructor cannot teach, even at least the forms can. Action through inaction is all a form truly is. No opponent, no instructor; only one's self.

I apologize if it sounds like rambling or spiritual mumbo jumbo, but as I've grown older, I've just only become more passionate about my martial arts, forms included. I feel I can't truly appreciate my love for the arts if I don't express in such a way.

>>856312

Man, being 16 is a hell of a drug.

>>856318

I'm 23, Anon. That's seven years difference.

Oh God.

>>856284
Some full contact shotokan
>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eeFvEvuum3Y
If you Google full contact shotokan its on the first page, there's a second video which features a bit more point but there's full contact in there as well

>>856284
>>856322
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=71KivQSYZYU
The second video to the one in my last post, found on the second page of googling full contact shotokan karate

>>856284
>>856327
>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z2iZ6qJm0Fw
Third video with a Shotokan Karateka fighting in a gloved full contact match in the world combat league. Admittedly I know little about the WCL, it's fights/or much about rules other than what I've looked up and what's on YouTube. Good full contact Shotokan is far more than 1%. And good schools can be found if you vet for them, like all martial arts.

>>856284
Fourth video vs kung fun
>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=milwX0I9TCI

>>856284
>>856354
Sequel,or at least only other one I found to fourth video
>http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AhELAT4pKnY

>>856354
*kung fu

So, one video series, one guy in the WCL, and some black karate dudes from the 70s (who we all know were cool). And that took you all night.

How many point-stop tag videos of Shotokan could I post in the time it took you to post those? Shitty is state of the art for Shotokan. You're arguing about outliers. You also still haven't found anything that looks like kata. And I mean kata, not kihon.

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>>856708
>So, one video series,
Made of multiple videos. Yes, and?
>one guy in the WCL,and some black karate dudes from the 70s (who we all know were cool).
Yes lets ingnore other Karateka, in kickboxing, bareknuckle/fullcontact karate and compeitions (Mikio Yahara, who beat up 30 yakuza in a parking lot when said yaks tried to fuck up his shit and extrort his clients;Masatoshi Nakayama), and MMA (Lyoto Machida, Attila Veigh)
>And that took you all night.
I know it's impossible for you but quit bitching. I found it didn't I and I was on my phone. There's also a shitton more on youtube that I didn't get around to/post, that you can find if you look, you going bitch about that too?
>How many point-stop tag videos of Shotokan could I post in the time it took you to post those?
No doubt a few, doesn't change the fact that proper bareknuckle/fullcontact exists and can be found.
>Shitty is state of the art for Shotokan.
For shit Shotokan yeah, Just like there's shit MMA, Bxing, Jiujitsu, Muay Thai and so on, that's the purpose of vetting your schools.
>You're arguing about outliers.
No, im arguing about non mcdojo, non WTF/what have you schools. I'll give you the majority of good schools are a bit fewer than micky d's happy funtime karate palace especially around rural areas, a bit outside cities but again, that's what vetting is for and if you can't find it for Shotokan I can guarantee you'll find it for any of the other plethora of Karate styles, it's not that fucking hard.
>You also still haven't found anything that looks like kata. And I mean kata, not kihon.
Iv'e already dealt with this. Bareknuckle Point Sparring. Look up old karate sparring and you'll find something about it. Still looking for the video I mentioned,myself, as it's been a long ass while an it was quite interesting, but if you really need a video shut the fuck up and take this while I find it
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2dj_X0YhRw
For,
>looks like kata. And I mean kata, not kihon.
(cont)

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>>856708
>>856814
...(cont.)For,
>looks like kata. And I mean kata, not kihon.
How the fuck does it look any differently aside from changing stances when practicing(i.e. 'fromt'/'side') stance and (as in punching and blocking from a osition where your hands are held up? The movements are still there and they definitely look the same in both kata and kihon if your practicing in a stance like zenkutsu or horse. And like is said before even though theyre similar they might not always look exactly the same, one of the very reaosns we have/teach different moves/forms. And even styles.

>>856814
>there's shit MMA, Bxing, Jiujitsu, Muay Thai and so on

But there isn't those things because the competition format provides quality assurance. If a gym is producing fighters it's quickly and easily verifiable. There is ZERO possibility that a boxing gym has a bunch of trophies at dancing in its front window.

>>856821

But people DON'T fight out of those stances or use those transitions or that timing or any of that shit. And if your thesis is that they did back in the 1970s why do you think they've stopped? Might it be because it's less effective than sparring without having to focus half your attention on maintaining artificial stylistic flourishes?

>>856814
>Mikio Yahara, who beat up 30 yakuza in a parking lot when said yaks tried to fuck up his shit and extrort his clients

There is absolutely zero possibility that this happened. I don't even need to look it up.

>>856855
>But there isn't those things because the competition format provides quality assurance.
Alright if I give you that, can you be certain at all levels, amatuer as well? Obviously somethindg is producing it because they're there.
>If a gym is producing fighters it's quickly and easily verifiable.
And it isn't for fullcontact karate? No competions/tournaments, fights? Try again. There's a plethora of them. Hell there'seven the World Oyama Karate Cup. And the 100 man kumite.
> There is ZERO possibility that a boxing gym has a bunch of trophies at dancing in its front window.
Maybe because boxing doesn't do Karate kata? and if a school did, It's kata and sparring are two different events, If that dojo has forms trophies it should also have full contact sparring trophies, certificates,something and regularly enter in a fullcontact/bareknuckle competition.
>
But people DON'T fight out of those stances or use those transitions or that timing or any of that shit.
So it's not incorpoated into the style in any way, even kihon or sparring? It's a completly seperate thing that seen as the one of te basiscs for nearly every Karate style for no reason right. How about you use another argument instead of the 'it's useless' that you keep pulling out of your ass along with your false assumptions that youv'e somehow discovered something no one else has and knows better.
>And if your thesis
Fact
>is that they did back in the 1970s why do you think they've stopped?
Because they didn't. Obviously bare knuckle is still around. Many schools still do (again vet) and It's not that hard to train point with no gloves. And with continuous full contact there are many places that neglect point especially training it bare knuckle. which has it's uses
>Might it be because it's less effective than sparring without having to focus half your attention on maintaining artificial stylistic flourishes?
Or maybe it's like I said above and fullcontact has taken a bit more precidence (cont.)

>>857016

Point is worthless if you're stopping after the point is scored. Do that for a few years and you will absolutely lose the ability to keep going after hitting or being hit.

Millions of people have discovered the uselessness of kata. Most people can see it's a silly thing to do without ever signing up for classes.

>>856872
>>857016
> (cont.)Might it be because it's less effective than sparring without having to focus half your attention on maintaining artificial stylistic flourishes?
Or maybe it's like I said above and fullcontact has taken a bit more precidence being shown over point and nearly the only point showcased nowadays is shitty point.
And as for that bareknuckle point video
the rest of this video from the one I posted above is the rest and is apparently Shotokan bareknuckle point sparring. Its not the video I was looking for but it looks like it's supposed to be point
I can't post the video's actual link but this is the nly link I can that works inb4 hurr durr reddit

>https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/3vnaxq/some_more_interesting_karate_point_sparring_i/

>Mikio Yahara, who beat up 30 yakuza in a parking lot when said yaks tried to fuck up his shit and extrort his clients

>There is absolutely zero possibility that this happened. I don't even need to look it up.
Alright correction. I forgot but should have put 'apparently', I don't know if it's true or not but he says it's what happened, has been interviewed been it and his dealings with yaks has even been mentioned in a documentary on him(on YT).
His interview from Japan Today,
the link directly to it has since gone however (cont.)

>>857043
>>856872
>(cont.)Zitat:
...
Once beat up 34 yakuza in parking lot

Yahara the enforcer is unabashed about stopping yakuza gangs extorting his clients. “They are like leeches. If you start showing weakness, they will not let you go,” he says. Facing death threats, he used to move house regularly. But his work got really personal just over a decade ago, when he single-handedly beat up 34 local "chimpira" (low-rank yakuza) in a parking lot.

One afternoon in Shizuoka, stopping by a convenience store with clients he was providing unofficial security for, he found a gang of chimpira waiting in the parking lot. He asked his clients to lock themselves in the car. He sensed trouble. Lots ensued.

“I heard my clients shouting, and saw them on my car bonnet. I knew if I backed down, I was finished,” he says, giving a blow-by-blow account, beginning with making sure he didn’t kill the first guy in line by deliberately hitting him with a palm strike. “I bounced the next one off the bonnet, and he squealed like a squashed frog. That was a sign for all of them to attack all at once. But it was very hard because there were still 30 left and I was 47. If they grabbed me, it would be the end.” There was a lucky escape when they pulled out clubs, he admits, one flashing past his eyes. “When I kicked him in the stomach, he doubled up like a prawn,” Yahara recalls.

With the casualty rate mounting, a character in a red leather jacket attempted to ram him with a car. “I could see his crazed, bloodshot eyes through the windshield,” he says. But he missed, and they fled. (cont.)

>>857045
>>856872
>...(con.t)“I tried to chase them, but my I realized I’d also been bare footed and my feet were cut to ribbons. I sank to my knees.”

End of story? Not quite. Enter the local don, with his greased-back hair and olive green double-breasted suit and toting a gun, squaring up to him on the quayside for Act II the following day.

“He said, 'It seems that my men are real pussies,’” recalls Yahara. “He lit a cigarette. ‘I came to talk because I don’t want this ending up taking your balls. Some of my men are in the hospital. I want you to pay their fees.’”

No chance. “My answer was, 'I would rather fight to the death than pay you,’” Yahara continues. “He put his hand inside his jacket and I knew it was a gun, but at that moment the police came, and he relaxed. 'I'll see you around, ni-san,' he said.”

Yahara’s conclusion: “I set out to clean the rubbish out of the system, and fortunately, so far I’m not dead.”
...
>http://www.kampfkunst-board.info/forum/f7/mikio-yahara-besiegt-34-yakuza-71539/
>http://www.japantoday.com/

>>857045
>>857050

Not a letter of what you posted matters.

Nobody anywhere at any time ever beat up 30 guys. That you believe this tells me your critical thinking skills are so poor and your delusion is so great that it's not worth arguing with you. I'm out.

>>857059
>Not a letter of what you posted matters.
Do you have an actual rebuttal or are you just going to claim that 'nothing matters' without anything to back it up, Alright Carl. Not that I should expect anything from anyone whos proven they don't know ho to debate properly. I'll just take this along with all the shit you pulled out of your ass you posted as your concession, seeing as with nothing you posted is anything other than your own unbacked up claims and butthurt. And unlike you I've proven that.
>Nobody anywhere at any time ever beat up 30 guys.
>No ones ever killed fiddy men and holding of a large order of individuals has never happened by one person
Tell that to Bishnu Shrestha, his story has at least been verified.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishnu_Shrestha
>http://www.blackfive.net/main/2011/01/the-fight-one-lone-retired-gurkha-against-a-train-with-40-bandits.html
>http://volokh.com/2011/02/01/retiring-gurkha-soldier-saves-woman-from-being-raped-uses-knife-to-fend-off-gang-of-40-knife-and-sword-wielding-robbers-killing-3-and-injuring-8/
>That you believe this tells me your critical thinking skills are so poor and your delusion is so great that it's not worth arguing with you. I'm out.
Did you not fucking catch this
>>857043
>There is absolutely zero possibility that this happened. I don't even need to look it up.
>Alright correction. I forgot but should have put 'apparently', I don't know if it's true or not but he says it's what happened, has been interviewed been it and his dealings with yaks has even been mentioned in a documentary on him(on YT). His interview from Japan Today,
the link directly to it has since gone however (cont.)
I said I did not know whether it was true or not. All I know is he has been interviewed among other things He 'could' or could not have and absent being there, footage of the incident or a police report etc, all we have are those interviews and the words Yahara goes by
And as for this,
(cont.)

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>>857059
>>857134
>..(cont.)your critical thinking skills are so poor and your delusion is so great
You use countless logical fallicies, (Ad Hominems seem to be your favorite), shitpost, hurl insults and bullshit you can't back up, falsely claim I cognitively dissonant (even more projection from you), think you can speak for everyone who has ever done forms in the history of all of martial arts, everyone on this board as well as in the modern day, saying that all forms are 'useless' (which you again cannot and have not proved), say your going to leave as you don't have anything of substance, come back and post yet more asinie shit and now among other things, you pull out some more shit/get butthurt and run away like bitch for the third time, to again, give yourself an out, as well not take any responsibility for what youv've said as well as project and falsely claim I said and believe things I do not, nor claimed I did. Your first argument and all concurring ones amount to mostly 'I don't like forms, stop liking what don't like and 'lol, forms suck'. Yet I am the one with poor critical thinking and am delusional? Nice projection yet again.
> I'm out.
Of course you are. Go back to whatever tumblr shit-tier hugbox you came from and for the sake of people who know what their talking about don't come back to fling your shit. You say your from Bullshido, but I don't think even they'd take you as shit anyone pulls out of their ass there there isn't tolerated either and Iv'e seen quite a few threads positively discuss and talk about the merits of forms

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>>857059
>>857173
With all your shitting on forms youv'e literally only worked your way up from the bottom to 'Contradiction' on this chart