How effective are weapon based martial arts anyway? Like for

Martial arts without weapons pretty much had as a self-purpose to improve weapon usage.

Weapon users defeat unarmed combatants almost always.

Many wrestling, judo, bjj people that try their skills on the street can simply get stabbed by some bum that knows nothing other than to hold a knife.

Are you assuming the fencer/kendoka is using a foil/shinai or a real rapier/katana?
Because I'm pretty sure their training weapons are useless for actually hurting someone.

>>757812
An idiot could kill someone with a sword. they are designed for killing people. Yes, you could theoretically disarm them, but it is not what's likely to happen, especially with someone who knows what their doing

>>757812
(sport) fencing and kendo aren't weapon based martial arts, they are sports loosely influenced by historical martial arts. I'm not trying to take any value away from them, they are excellent and athletic sports, but they are not martial arts.

For western weapons based martial arts look at HEMA, for Japanese look at kenjutsu.

To answer your question, real weapon martial arts are very effective. Of course a competent HEMA, Kenjutsu or Kali practitioner could beat an unarmed BJJ practitioner, but that's not what they're training for, they're training to fight against other people armed with weapons. You don't need many special skills to stab an unarmed person with a long piece of steel, but you need lots of skill to stop someone from stabbing you with a long piece of steel.

You might as well be asking "how effective are firearm training courses anyway? Would a trained shooter be able to beat someone trained in BJJ?"

Yes, but that's not what they're training for, they're training to beat other people with guns.


>>757876
Sport fencers don't train for the rapier.

>>757876
Assuming the kendoka isn't totally incompetent, a shinai can still give someone a concussion easily enough. If they're able to do tsuki that's a potentially lethal option there. I don't know enough about fencing to talk about their weapons though.

where do you weapon ma fags get your gear? interested in escrima, or anything that will get my hands on a bo or jo staff

Anon in Japan here. If I was single I'd totally join a kendo or kyudo club just for the qts

>>757975
>where do you weapon ma fags get your gear?
At a MA shop in the larger nearby city, or online.

A weapon will give some rather drastic advantages over fighting unarmed, for one thing reach and the other is damage. A simple knife can do lethal stabbing wounds very easily even when wielded by a weak person. A sword, spear or others will give excellent reach and bladed weapons can hardly be blocked unarmed, blunt weapons will easily break bones. Getting close and do damage wouldn't be easy against an untrained weapon user, much more difficult against someone trained in it.
Most weapons can be wielded very quickly, swords aren't slow as long as the person doesn't go for telegraphed full swings like what an untrained person would do.

>>757903
>a shinai can still give someone a concussion easily enough.
Now just give a kendoka a bokken...

>>757813
but then again you can't even walk the streets with a boken on your back and not get at least arrested for questioning.
not to mention the fedoras you will tip..

I wish there was arms application. Weapons feel really nice and strong to hold.
Bokens, chinese straight sword, bows, etc.

Getting hit with a bamboo stick hurts, and so does getting stabbed by a steel rod, even if it's flexible to a degree. Even in the hand of someone untrained they give you three simple, effective advantages: range, hardness and painlessness (for you).

They are not effective if you are standing there arguing and then get sucker punched.

They are effective if you see where the situation is going and stab the fucker before he stabs you but then he still has time to stab you and you both bleed out and go to jail.

I don't think a kendoka will be able to beat anyone because a bokken is not sharp and while it can break bone you still have a good chance of disarming the guy and bjji'ing him or someshit.

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>>758041

>>758045
define "good chance"

>>757812
It's retarded for self defense due to the fact you can't carry your samurai swords and longbows with you 24/7 unless you're some autist who lives in some third world shithole

>>758045
A stab with a bokken in the throat area is easily lethal, a strike to the head aswell. It can break an arm, hand or rip.
Adrenaline can make you not notice a lot of things. Maybe you can disarm him or get close, but then you are surprised why one of your arms aint moving and notice its brokenly dangling there.
Weapons are very dangerous, and from knowing that double kills aren't rare, people trained with happens will know how to keep someone at distance and to prevent them just to charge in with disregard to their life.

What fighting style would someone recommend for training with spears, or staffs?

>>758809
naginata-do

youtube it

>>758809
There are alot of koryu that teach staff and spear.
>>758843
naginata do is like kendo with a naginata, though it does of connections with tendo ryu which is a practical art.

>>757812
Ridiculously effective. Basically any weapon elevates your chances of winning like 1000 percent.

>>757812

Sword vs barehand, both fighters trained? The generic swordsman is going to win most of the time. BJJ guy tries to tackle someone half-swording? Shishkebab.

>>758809

Northern Long Fist or Shaolin, hands down.

>>758809
HEMA

>>757812
Consider that most of these weapon guys don't spar full contact, so most of them aren't used to dealing with uncontrolled, unpredictable aggression.

If you watch the dog brothers, a TON of the early fights were simply Roof Block --> Double leg.

Guy metzger beat the shit out of a knife wielding girlfriend beater barehanded.

While being unarmed is a huge disadvantage, knowing how to fight and having actual experience fighting someone who wants to hurt you applies with or without a weapon.

>>759062
I would agree that most weapons people are casual hobbyists, but not that those "outmoded" forms of training do not teach how to deal with "uncontrolled, unpredictable aggression"

>>757887
sport fencer beats hema beacause superior distance and timing, supierior training and a much wider of opponents and talent. sure- hema rules better simulate actual combat , however the difference is not as large as the hema pack make out. with a sharp blade it only takes one strike, thrust to seriously hurt an adversary. At this stage, the fencer is much more able to deliver that strike. Same for kendo>>kenjitsu

>>759120
I would love to see a rapier bout between a sport fencer and a HEMA rapierist, that would probably be interesting.

>>759140
underhema rules- sport fencer hits, hema cancels hit with after blow.real fight- hema fencer concerned with life becomes defencive, cannot enter fencers range, gets struck, stabbed by supierior timing. depends on how damaged hema is after that.if hema is average neckbeard then he retires at first sign of blood. is hema has heart and fencers first strike not debilitating then could turn out bad for both. if turns into wrestling/grappling- fencer wins due to better balance and conditioning.

>>759144
Very creative, of course you realize under the stress of real combat, a swordsman might not realize he was cut unless it was deep enough to disable him.

Your comment about grappling is just ridiculous, at least if the Hema guy does any grappling

>>759146
sure, but the more skilled fencer would still have advantage of first strike and beterr overall skills. re grappling- whoever had more grappling exp would have advantage, however if neither had experience then the fencers better balance would give slight edge

>>759144
>underhema rules- sport fencer hits
It's funny how you naturally assume this, how you assume that the sport fencer will have his game unchanged by having his weapon's grip styles altered and having his weapon weight being more than tripled.

>>757812

Weapons are tools wich multiply your force. But they are not magical wands. If someone has a shitty timing he wont have a connecting hit. A big stick can easily break bones, but if you are in a life or death fight a broken bone might not be the end, but the BJJ guy (of your example) might be muscular, take the hit and manage to outwrestle the weapon fighter. Also a "normal" figher could just use something as an improvised weapon and block with it while he tries to get closer..

It's just too many environmental variables. Generally: bigger weapon, better chances.
>>759062

>If you watch the dog brothers, a TON of the early fights were simply Roof Block --> Double leg.

If you fight with sticks and no protection, the fist hit often defides the fight. In the "dog brothers world" many things don't go down like a real fight, there's some good stuff and also some bad stuff (i.e. their knife fighting or double stick).


>>759120

+1
I love how people think timing and explosiveness are not important. If they fight in full armour (where you need heavy swings and counters) the HEMA guy might have an advantage, but without protection the fencer would pierce the HEMA guy's lung in no time. Fencing develloped as the refined dueling technique of centuries, HEMA is how wars were fought. Different stuff.

>>759158
im glad someone recognizes this. Striking is all about distance and timing as well as reading opponents feints and real intentions. fencers have been training this and improving for generations. hema is new and has the mentality of recreating a form of the past- not finding and developing the most effective methods.

i agree somewhat that the increase in weight would be difficult for the fencer- it depends on how long you give him/her toplay around with the weapon. it took me about 2 weeks to get used to different weight before i was comfortable. carrying and swinging the weapon around the house is a good way to adjust.

>>759120
Sure thing buddy, that's why sport fencers win all the HEMA tournaments.

Oh wait.

>>759179
If they held any prestige outside of the HEMA community they probably would

>>759158
The difference is that Olympic fencing is substantially different from how people trained for duels when they were common place.

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Why is this board so full of retarded questions?
Of course you can't win against somebody wielding any weapon better than a knife.
With a sword, you just have to point in the general direction of your opponent and there is literally no way for him to get close without beeing sliced up.

>>758164
I didn't read OP's question and was describing a "muh street self-defence".

In which case your bokken is easily visible and your attackers will get close before they actually attack.

So you either continuously break distance which makes them realize you're onto them and they attack while you're still close

Or you break distance and strike first

I have hard time imagining how you can keep someone at a distance with a bokken though.

I mean they can just put their arms up and their head down and rush you, you can't stab them in the face at this point and if they take your strike with the top of their head I doubt it will do much damage.

>>759290
You mean a bokken strike to the base of the neck wouldn't stop someone ?
Also, you can do upward strikes to get their face, if they keep the head down.
It's not perfect, but it's pretty much a baseball bat with better balance and handling but slightly less mass behind each attack.

>>759188
There's plenty of sport fencers that take part in HEMA, many high level sport fencers, too. None of them win any competitions.

>>759290
Why don't you try taking a bokken strike to the top of your head and tell us how you feel

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What if the HEMA guy uses a pistol as his companion weapon?

>>759290
You can beat much stronger opponents when you ambush them and get the first strike. If you get the first strike you could kill somebody with a pencil by stabbing them in the throat. Much easier with a knife or some other easily concealable weapon.
Carrying a sword wont make you invincible and neither will BJJ or any other martial arts.

Could a bokken strike to the top of the head take someone out? Possibly. There are certainly other parts that can be hit and damaged.
The other could manage to evade a tackle you described, and maybe even striking while doing so. Fights aren't black and white, a superior fighter can lose to a dumb mistake. And similar an armed fighter could lose without harming the other guy.

Defending against weapons is difficult and they can easily injure or kill someone.

>>762321
A single shot, breech loading, ancient pistol?

Actually that would make an interesting fight. Would you sacrifice dagger hand for a single shot that could misfire?

SOMEBODY SET THIS UP!!

>>762464

That pretty much sums it up.

>>762475

>Would you sacrifice dagger hand for a single shot that could misfire?

Yes. You close in, bind the bigger blade, shoot from close distance and back off.

Now he is wounded and all you have to do is to defend and wait until he faints. Also a pistol is still a nice tool for blocking and hammer strikes at the head.

>>762475
Couldn't you still have a dagger somewhere? Just shoot, drop the gun and draw the dagger.

>>759158
>I love how people think timing and explosiveness are not important. If they fight in full armour (where you need heavy swings and counters) the HEMA guy might have an advantage, but without protection the fencer would pierce the HEMA guy's lung in no time. Fencing develloped as the refined dueling technique of centuries, HEMA is how wars were fought. Different stuff.

This is absolutely incorrect.

HEMA is not how wars were fought. The vast majority of HEMA manuscripts, and treatises deal with civillian unarmoured duelling. Even military manuals (military saber etc) deal with with the same techniques you would use in a civillian unarmoured duel.

Explosiveness and timing is just as important in HEMA, and it is dealt with in the treatises accordingly. Swings don't need to be slow or heavy in armour. You don't know what you're talking about.

>without protection the fencer would pierce the HEMA guy's lung in no time
And then get stabbed right through the face immediately afterwards because he used a sport fencing technique which is refined to deliver a touch in the fastest and most direct way possible, without worrying about getting hit back. No thought for opposition or a covered line, basic real fencing fundamentals that keep you alive.

>Fencing develloped as the refined dueling technique of centuries. Fencing develloped as the refined dueling technique of centuries

Yes, and it is this fencing that HEMA deals with. Rapier, saber, smallsword and so on. Sport fencing is something different, it isn't refined duelling, it is a game loosely based on a couple of swordsmanship techniques placed out of context. It is like kendo, or paintballing. It's fast, athletic, fun, hard, exciting and complicated, but it isn't swordsmanship, and a good smallsword fencer from the 19th Century would wipe the floor with a modern sport fencer in a duel.

>>766178
Nice misconceptions. In sports fencing you risk trading hits when it's strategically viable.

Not that it would really matter because a sport fencer can get in, deliver and get out again before the typical HEMA practitioner even starts lurching forward.

>>766814
>Nice misconceptions. In sports fencing you risk trading hits when it's strategically viable.
In a real fight with real swords it is never strategically viable.

>Not that it would really matter because a sport fencer can get in, deliver and get out again before the typical HEMA practitioner even starts lurching forward.
That's why all the sport fencers that take part in HEMA competitions and try sport fencing tactics get owned.

>>757812
For a weapon wielder to fight off a grappler, he's gonna have to manage the distance in the same aspect as a boxer or kickboxer having to do the same thing. Once the grappler can close the distance, most of the weapon's uses have been disabled and thus he's fucked.

>>768013
And the grappler will have to bridge a massive gap where pretty much any attack done by his opponent could end his life. The way you put it, it's like it's the grappler that got the advantage because if the other fucked up, he's done, the thing is true in the other way though and in a much more dramatic way.

A grappler vs an ok swordsman, how the hell is the grappler in any sort of advantage or even have a decent chance of pulling off his game without getting a sword hit that will probably terminate the fight or settle it instantly ?

>>766178

>The vast majority of HEMA manuscripts, and treatises deal with civillian unarmoured duelling.

You are stupid. You think civiliand had access to the vast amout of differnt weapons, halberds, swords, shiedls, plate armour..? In every society on earth the military was the start of weapon fighting arts.

>You don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, you know nothing about me. But I know that you're clearnly overestimating yourself.

>And then get stabbed right through the face immediately..

ONce again you're making wrong assumtions. A fencer can just wait until the slow, bad footworked HEMA guy tries a stab and redirect it while closing in and do the stab from a momentarily save position. Or a liek athousands of other tactics. The straight is always faster than the angles.

>basic real fencing fundamentals that keep you alive.

Exactly! And it's those fundamentals most HEMA guys are missing. Before you can think about a fancy sword bind counter technique you should get good at lunging, because that are teh important basics. And that's what fencing excels at.

> it is a game loosely based on a couple of swordsmanship techniques placed out of context.

Whereas HEMA guys duel until someone drops dead? Because that's how fencing was like only 150 years ago.

>a good smallsword fencer from the 19th Century would wipe the floor with a modern sport fencer in a duel.

That's a pretty artificial situation, so I'd say it's impossible to tell. But the smallsword fencer would defiantely have a hard time with the fencers speed and had to be good to not get pierced within seconds.


You see most HEMA guys have no idea about the speed we are talking about. Fencers are so damn fast in attacking retracting and blocking, it's just not easy to deal with that speed.

I think HEMA has a point in training with heaviear weapons, but if you are underestimating fencing, you are a fool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVytNWgHeqM

>>768512
Not him, but:
You have a very poor understanding of history, fencing, HEMA and sport fencing. You are embarassing yourself.
I have done sport fencing for 15 years. I've done HEMA for 2 years. You should be glad of anonimity, because you would be ridiculed by both camps.

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>>768512
>You are stupid. You think civiliand had access to the vast amout of differnt weapons, halberds, swords, shiedls, plate armour..?

They did actually. The whole military/civilian distinction wasn't as wide back then and weapon ownership was often encouraged let alone discouraged. The largest and best preserved weapon collections today are from civilian collections after all.

>Before you can think about a fancy sword bind counter technique you should get good at lunging
A focus on footwork is always commendable and is actually enforced in most HEMA clubs but for the thousandth time the footwork is different by necessity. It's wider and lunges are rarer and not nearly as deep because the rules are different and deep lunges are encouraging afterblows and double hits which we aren't concerned with in sports fencing.

This is also true to the less competition oriented HEMA guys who can rightly claim that the lunge was debateably not even a thing in the time of say Longsword fencings heyday. Not that footwork is ever discussed in much depth in itself in the treatises anyway.

My sports fencing footwork didn't make me dominate in HEMA and i've never seen it help others either. If you trained to competition level in HEMA (not saying you should) you're footwork would look much the same as anyone else at say Swordfish.

The malice between HEMA and Fencing is the most baffling thing to me they compliment eachother wonderfully and I'd love to do both is the latter hadn't long since gone extinct in my area.

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>>768602
This.

I've done sport fencing for 15 years on HEMA only for 2. Sport fencers really get their jimmies rustled by HEMA, it's hilarious. The amount of times I've seen what's going on in this thread: A sport fencer starting to spout fallacies and outright incorrect statements about history and real fencing to a HEMA practitioner, which makes the HEMA practitioner (who specialises foremost in studying the history of fencing!) correct the sport fencer, and say something along the lines of "look, this works for you, in your specific activity, but it doesn't work for me because I'm doing something with a different goal, sport fencing and real fencing are two different things" and the sport fencer loses his shit and starts with the personal attacks and the "2fast4u olympic sport fatlord" even though we both know that he is just the fat nerdy kid who wasn't good at the cool sports, and finally found something where he's not openly ridiculed because the majority (I know this because I did sport fencing for a long time) of practitioners aren't the Olympic athletes he aspires to be, they're the wimpy beta kids like him.

Pic related.

Pic related. Sorry for English.

I fucking hate brainless fencers. It's always the same. They may even be fit and have good technique but they know no strategy. A good fencer knows when to trade hits, and when not to. A good fencer knows that the technique ceiling in a bout is set by the inferior fencer, not the better one. Only a complete idiot would try to launch compound attacks against a beginner. Likewise, only someone who has no idea what they're doing would attack before establishing the defense no matter against whom; you can always spot those idiots by the colorful bruises on their inner elbow and forearm.

They refuse to learn and then either quit or run off to LARP/HEMA and embarrass us by doing the same shit there as well while claiming to have an extensive fencing background. They go launch multi-step attacks at fat kids whose idea of good footwork equals not tripping over their own feet and a good attack means exposing the arms and running forward face first, and still manage to skewer themselves because they don't have two brain cells to rub together. Fuck them. I'm glad HEMA exists as containment hobby for those fuckwards.

>>768627
Your whole post is a giant strawman and thus completely meaningless and irrelevant.

>>768549

>You have a very poor understanding of history, fencing, HEMA and sport fencing.

I don't think so.

First of all: fencing is potentially deadly if you remove the protection gear. "Sport Fencers" have actually died from broken blades penetrating the mask (and the skull) or going under the mask and cutting the carotid artery or deadly wounds at the arm before underarm protectors were mandatory. Now ask yourself how hard it would be for a fencer to hit those parts in a fight against someone unprotected? Not so much.

But the good thing is, we don't even need to theorize here, because historically a lot of people died from "sport fencing":

"Student life was quite unsafe in these years, especially in the 16th and 17th centuries during the Reformation wars and the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648), when a major part of the German population was killed. Public life was brutal and students killing each other in the street was not uncommon. (...) Since fencing on thrust with a sharp point is quite dangerous, many students died from their lungs being pierced (Lungenfuchser), which made breathing difficult or impossible. "
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_fencing


>>768602

>weapon ownership was often encouraged let alone discouraged

That's a pretty vague thing to say..
But IMHO it's common sense that sword masters must either have a a career in dueling or went to the military, where else would they have picked up their stuff?

There are guys like Liechtenauer, people we don't know too much about where they picked up there stuff (but they probably had good teachers).

But other guys were military, like Fiore de'i Liberi was a knight, commander and master at arms and Ludwig von Eyb was a knight and soldier.

>The malice between HEMA and Fencing is the most baffling thing to me they compliment eachother wonderfully

Exactly my point. HEMA without fencing is often full of bad techqnique. Fencing without HEMA is only a tiny segment of Weapon fighting.

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Huh...this is actually an interesting question.

At first, I thought OP was dumb because of course some dude with a weapon is going to be able to beat up some other dude without a weapon.

Then I started thinking about it.

If the weapon is specifically made to simulate violence without causing physical harm, e.g. a shinai, is it even a weapon at all?

What other objects are made expressly to simulate violence? Paintball guns. Yet, those are generally considered pieces of sporting good.

So, by extension a shinai must also be a sporting good.

And like paintball, kendo is ultimately focused around hitting people with it's particular piece of equipment in order score points without causing physical harm.

Ergo, either both paintball and kendo are martial arts or neither kendo nor paintball are martial arts.

>>769765
I have a hard time understanding your point. I think the previous argument was that HEMA is more defensive (or any duel) in that trading blows is a bad thing unless you suffer only a very minor injury and thats it not just over the moment you hit the other. While sport fencing is about scoring points and generally about just scoring an attack quicker than the other.
Your point about the weapon being potentially deadly doesn't change that. More weirdly you compare todays sport fencing to fencing in what is essentially duels in the 16th and 17th centuries. Even you must get that those guys weren't concerned about points and instead maximising damage on the other while minimising damage to themself.
Fighting in an sporting environment is rather different from fighting in a life or death scenario.

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>dude HEMA is so much better and totally realistic
>two fat fucks in hokey gear prance around and hit each other in slo-motion with floppy metal bars
>get points for hits

>>769765
HEMA is the study and practice of the techniques and systems used when duelling was lethal. When people used to fight with rapiers and smallswords and sabers. Sport fencing is an offshoot from that, which branched out to create a game loosely based on swordsmanship. Why do you find this so hard to understand? Why do you think sport fencing is better at real fencing than real fencing? Sport fencing existed at the same time as real fencing. Most people who trained in military saber or smallsword also practiced foil. Why do you think they used smallsword or military saber techniques when they were fighting, instead of foil techniques?

>>770170
Does this look at all anything like what you described, sperglord?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

>>770129

You see, this argument that "sport fencing is about scoring without regards of the defense" is dumb.

You can play "what if.." all day long, but at the end of the day a sword fight boils down to the simple fact, that at some point you have to commit to your strikes. And that also means entering the other guys range. No matter how "defensive" the sword fighters are, at some point you will get into the other guys range. And who do you think can be the one to deliver a hit and get away with it, the guy who trained for year to find tiny holes in the defense, exploits weak attacks and can move in and out of range with a single step - or the guy who spend years training for beautiful "Vom Tag" postures and trying to figure out how the one true response to a certain attack is (according to some dude who can't even tell him if he's right or wrong)? The answer is quite simple if you look at it closesly. First blood would be drawn by the fencer in 9/10 times.

Here is a Kendo vs. Fencing matchup, mind that Kendo footwork is a lot faster HEMA footwork:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST1wRzfgmI


>Even you must get that those guys weren't concerned about points and instead maximising damage on the other while minimising damage to themself.

You're missing the point. Points were invented so the fighters didn't have to get pierced, it's not like points simulate anything other than getting stabbed. Even you should get that.

>Fighting in an sporting environment is rather different from fighting in a life or death scenario.

No. Reflexes are reflexes, Muscle memory is muscle memory and the ability to stab accurately to the point is just a skill you have (by training it excessively) or you don't.


>>770219

>Does this look at all anything like what you described, sperglord?

Nice compliant simulation of a fight.

>>770219
>choreographed shit
>exposing yourself that much to counter hits
>still stumbling around like a retard, almost falling over a bunch of times
>floppy metal poles with big red ouchie buttons

LMAO

>>770778
>Being this retarded

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I love HEMA.

>>770314
>>770778

your comments are incredibly ignorant. Of course the foil beats the shinai, its lighter, and a duel to first blood is far different from a duel till death or disability.

a glancing blow from a foil will not stop someone already in the process of smashing your head in with a longsword or a katana, and there probably going to walk away from that match with a scar, the guy with the smashed in head on the other hand....
Speaking from someone outside hema, those guys are very good. There doing drills, but they are going hard and fast, those weapons even blunted can do a lot of damage (I believe I saw a large bruise on one of their arms.) There form might not be perfect, but I doubt that was the purpose of this drill.

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>>757812
>the fact that their arts have more of a sports/competition basis

Any time I give this board a chance, without exception, I'm always disappointed by what people think they know to be true.

>>757887
>(sport) fencing and kendo aren't weapon based martial arts

Factually wrong, just because they no longer use lethal weapons doesn't mean they are not weapon-based.

I'd like to point out that people like Musashi, to give the best known example, used a bokken to kill opponents armed with actual sharp metal katanas.

>>774119
bokken are weapons in their own right, swords cut, bokken shatter, still there is a margin of safety with a bokken that you do not have with a katana, and given a choice I would prefer the latter

Nunchucks are the most effective melee weapons in all of Asia; therefore, martial arts that include nunchucks are some of the best martial arts in all of Asia (FMA and Karate, to name a couple).

This video is definitive proof that you can't hurt yourself when using nunchucks.
The guy in this video was short on sleep, and it was late at night; he was going full blown primitive with those nunchucks, but he didn't hurt himself at all.
https://vimeo.com/145962107

>>774224
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGIBaMLzAT0

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HEMA lesson 1
>OK here's this technique where you hit the other guy on the head when he tries to go for your arms

HEMA lesson 2
>OK here's this technique where you hit the other guy on the arms while he tries to hit your head

Reminds me of my McDojo taekwondo days

>>774458

For me it's more

>OK here's this technique where you hit the other guy on the head where he waits for the timing and moves then hits you on the head accordingly.

>OK here's this technique where you hit the other guy on the arms while he counter cuts your arms.

But I suppose there's different teachers teach different things.

>>770314
I can see the fencer pricking the kendoguy, and getting hit square on the face almost simultaneously. If that was a real fight, I'd know who goes out to the hospital and who for the morgue.

>>774651
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hemorrhage

>>774651
There also needs to be seen a difference between a lethal and an incapacitating wound. You can be wounded lethally and still continue fighting for seconds or minutes.
In a real fight it's not over after the first strike is done. Getting a hit in first but eating a katana to the face is a bad strategy.

>>774651

>I can see the fencer pricking the kendoguy, and getting hit square on the face almost simultaneously

1. A fecncer your easily pick a differnt target. I'd like to see the Kendo guy doing one more move with a foil, piercing though his eye in his brain or through his neck..

2. A pierced lung is a dangerous thing and very easily archieved with a sharp foil.

3. If you can be a great attacker doesn't mean you have no brains. In a "life or death fight on the street" a fencer wouldn't attack recklessly, but he'd wait for his chance, for an opening. But the more important part is, if you never learned to act (and react) at the speed of fencing, you don't even have the choice of changing the rythm of your attacks from slow to lightning speed, you can just change it from slow to medium. That's a major flaw that will eventually get you fucked in the arse in offense as well as defense.

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Weapon-based martial arts are really practical.

I'd recommend looking at IPSC, 3-gun and IDPA.

>>775942
>1. A fecncer your easily pick a differnt target. I'd like to see the Kendo guy doing one more move with a foil, piercing though his eye in his brain or through his neck..

except in your video he hit the kendoka on his side, and got hit in the head less than a second later. Even if the fencer hit something vital, the head shot would still connect and kill or incapacitate the fencer.

>In a "life or death fight on the street" a fencer wouldn't attack recklessly,

neither fencing nor kendo footwork is ideal for "the street" as they both emphasis fast, mostly linear movements. both are descended from dueling styles and not as well suited to a natural environment as Hema and many styles of kenjutsu are

>>757812
If you have a weapon AND training in that weapon, you'll obviously win out. Some weapons will grant a bigger advantage than others. There's no question.

The bigger question is if weapon based martial arts are useful unarmed.
I do Balintawak and I feel ready, if not competent, for unarmed fighting after doing a few lessons of boxing and jujutsu to learn a bit more about unarmed fighting.
I'd be fucked if I was grounded, though. I know it's my weakness, but I also do not enjoy getting sweaty with other men, so I'm not interested in improving.

Then again, even a pen will be a not completely useless weapon in my hand. A kitchen knife would do splendidly.

>>773103
But shit like Kendo is similarily crippled to boxing, when it comes to combat in a no rules situation.

>>775942
Imagine 2 guys training fencing, both with the same potential and same time spent. But one trains for the sport aspect and points while the other trains solely for usage in duels. Wouldn't you agree that despite using the same weapon, they will differ as they train to suit their style to what they need? It gets more interesting even when the other guy uses a parry dagger or a buckler and the fencer specialising in the sport aspect has little to no experience against those.
The rapier is a specialised weapon, specialised for the duel due to its speed and reach. In a war scenario it would have problems with stuff like armor or people carrying spears. HEMA fighters practice against rapiers because they are so difficult to fight against, so there is no big surprise to me when sport fencers who don't adapt will do badly.
Like you showed us a video trying to demonstrate how quick fencers are, but everyone sees the glaring issue of the fencer ending up dead if that were a real fight. You keep talking about explosiveness and speed as if that were a thing only sport fencers could do, all while missing the point.

>>777683
You want to avoid ending up on the ground as much as you can in self defense. Similar you want to avoid getting stabbed at all costs, you get stabbed, you die. Even a kitchen knife will easily archieve that. You could carry a few knifes concealed and become a serious danger to an unarmed guy grappling you.

>>778133

>one trains for the sport aspect and points while the other trains solely for usage in duels.

Your example is inaccurate, my point is that cross training will beat non-cross training. I'd say a third guy, who trains for "sport" and participates in tournaments but also has knowledge of the general ideas and basic countes of HEMA could beat them both in a real fight (with the same amout of training time).

>In a war scenario it would have problems with stuff like armor or people carrying spears.

That's a pretty cheap move..
"But what if they are armoured? If they have pikemen? If they fight on horses? If they fight in the woods?" You can always create a situation where certain weapons have disadvantages.

That's why I wrote (>>759158): "Fencing develloped as the refined dueling technique of centuries, HEMA is how wars were fought. Different stuff."

>HEMA fighters practice against rapiers because they are so difficult to fight against, so there is no big surprise to me when sport fencers who don't adapt will do badly.

But swords became constantly lighter and thinner throughout the ages. Fencing isn't a "made up thing", it's the result of the logical devellopment of unarmoured sword fighting. That's the crucial point you have to understand, that fencing is the result of an evolution. Some famous sword guy (can't recall the name) showed 1000 years ago that angles are inferior to linear attacks because at a certain weapon length for angles you'd have to move way too much to make it in time and as the linear movement is just too fast for that. (Can't recall the details, some destreza guy?) That doesn't apply to short weapons, but the general point stands, and that's why fencers fight in a path, because there's simply no point in circling.

This and much more, I'm not interested in discussing details, the point is just that EVERYTHING in fencing happens for a reason and it's good to gain an in-depth understanding of those reasons before changing things.

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>>778202

>But swords became constantly lighter and thinner throughout the ages.

Forgot the picture.

>>778202

>showed 1000 years ago

Oh my, I meant "100 years ago".

There are even pictures of it, I just don't remember that guy's name..

>>778202
>But swords became constantly lighter and thinner throughout the ages
But that's wrong, you fucking retard.

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>>778507

OK, maybe bad wording. "Swords became longer and thinner at the same weight throughout the ages."

Better now, Mr. Nitpicker?

If you deny THAT you have clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

>>778551
What about messers, broadswords, backswords, side swords, cinquedeas, colichemardes, schiavonas, sabers and all of the rest?

>>778202
basically your idea that modern fencing is a result of evolution towards better swords and more sophisticated techniques is antiquated, its what fencing historians were saying in the 19th century before serious research had been done on the subject.

>>778560

So you are telling me just you just don't get what I'm trying to say? Or are you just rolling?

>LOL, there are knifes today, so you are wrong
>LOL, this and that culture used heavy swords at this and that century

Hint: I was talking about general changes..

When were Zweihänders used?
When were side-swords used?
When were Rapiers used?
When were Small swords used?

>>778571

Basically you are talking out of your ass.

>>778588
your the one who is demonstrating they don't know what they are talking about, as your commentary on fencing versus kendo clearly showed.

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>>778594

I just love it when you give people arguments and they reply with something like "U are dumb, lol".

The Kendo vs. Fencing video was only to illustrate a certain thing, but well, I donÄt fell like explaining it all over again.

Just have some wet dreams about how amazing HEMA is and how you would destroy every competitive weapon martial artist with your fantasy movements you made up from ancient manuals..

>>778604

>I just love it when you give people arguments and they reply with something like "U are dumb, lol".

>>778588

So your talking about yourself?

your analysis of the issue was stupid. poking someone with a sword does not end the sword fight, no matter how potentially lethal that is. Your assertion that fencing is superior because it will land a hit first is fundamentally flawed, because first blood does not necessarily result in victory, especially when the other side lands a death blow less than a second latter.

>>758006

I'd argue that in some ways a bokken is MORE dangerous than a katana. They're often made slightly heavier for exercise purposes, edge alignment is irrelevant, there's less instinctual aversion to hitting someone with a club than there is to opening them up with sharp metal and there's really no need to fear about the worth of a bokken if it breaks in the fight. Plus, don't rule out most "katanas" being wallhangers. It's not like a slab of wood can be poorly put together. A sword can do more damage, but I think a bokken would be more dangerous in the hands of the everyman OR kendoka (remember, they don't usually train for edge alignment.)

>>778854
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AdruIi-Ff8

>>778854
I wouldn't say more dangerous. Good edge alignment is more about protecting the sword than the person its hitting, their going to be bleeding either way. And while bludgeoning can cause some serious injuries, blood loss can turn a cut to the extremities into a potentially fatal injury.

>>757813

>get attacked by an opponent with a weapon: lose
>get attacked by an opponent without a weapon: as a trained fighter, potentially get charged with assault with a deadly weapon, depending on how stupid your state's/country's laws are on the matter

This is why martial arts are for recreation only. If you want self-defense, put a shotgun in your house to defend against home invasions, carry a concealed gun to deter unarmed attackers, and carry a fake wallet (cheap wallet with a bunch of business cards, outdated coupons, and maybe $3) to deal with muggers.

>>779117

Once again: Weapons are tools, not magic wands. You are not invincible if you are carrying a weapon.
The general principles of "trained martial artst will beat a non-martial artist" still apply.

>http://www.cagepotato.com/awesome-story-of-the-day-guy-mezger-saved-a-woman-from-knife-wielding-scumbag-last-month/

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>>779117
>you can go to jail for using martial arts!
>USE A GUN

>>779170

Any stories that you can give me on the topic involve massive amounts of luck.

>you vs. knifeman

If you're a striker: He might not know how to throw a punch, but he doesn't need to. A ten year old can deliver a fatal stabbing with a knife. If he hits you with that thing at all, you're going to suffer long term damage, and possibly die.

If you're a grappler: He's going to stab you while you're doing your thing. Again, he doesn't need a lot of strength behind his stab to do serious damage.

And forget about a gunman.

Furthermore, as the defender (I'm hoping), you face the severe disadvantage that they have the drop on you. Training relies on the idea that you don't get yourself into a situation where you're going to have your brains blown out before you can do anything.

If you want to survive, it's best to not think of yourself as the hero in a movie. Your victory is not a foregone conclusion. You can die.


>>779179

Load up the gun, get your family all in the same room, lock the door, and call the police.

If he tries to force his way into the room, if you're European, your choices are likely between prison and death. Might as well take the one that kills him and spares your family.

As for the unarmed people, if you're in a shitty country, your choices might be between prison, deterrence (what the gun is for), and getting your ass kicked.

>>779196
Or you could just not be a pussy and do something righteous.

>>779196
>
If he tries to force his way into the room, if you're European, your choices are likely between prison and death. Might as well take the one that kills him and spares your family.
There is a right to bodily integrity. Which includes the right to self defense as long as there's an immediate danger of death.

However, guns must be stored separate from ammunition, so the police would have quite a few questions if you were using a gun.
I'd just take a prop sword and break the guy's bones until he isn't a danger anymore.

But then again, a burglar with a gun would be a pretty freaky sight, due to how unusual it is.

Depends on art I do FMA so if a stick or bladed was involved I have the advantage from being conditioned to cut people and if empty I'm not useless. While with a kendo person while he is unarmed vs a boxer might as well be the average person off the street

>>779196

>Any stories that you can give me on the topic involve massive amounts of luck.

Well, I personally know two people who were attacked with knifes and won (one is a doorman who trains FMA, one is a MT guy who was just "constantly in trouble" in his younger days).

Of course both went to hospital because they got cut at arm/hand, but knifes have little to no stopping power, which means even if you cut someone (lethal or minor cut) he still has plent of time to kick your ass or even kill you.

Another former friend of mine (a soldier with some "experience", don't ask..) told me once that if you don't know how to properly use a knife you better don't use it at all, because it can (and will) be turned against you. And that's pretty much my point of view after some years of FMA. It's not that hard to get a hold of the knife and stab the guy with his own knife if you don't give a fuck if you get cut or not. And when someone pulls a knife people know it's on and fight for their lifes.

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>>763931
>not just equipping your old knife onto your gun as a bayonet

pleb.

>>758809

HEMA

>>779341
The important part is to avoid getting stabbed at all costs. Like you said, cuts are not the worst thing, it's better to get cut than to get stabbed. When you get stabbed you are in immense risk of dying from that single wound. There isn't really a second chance, one mistake and it's over. The stakes are really high in those cases.
A punch in comparison can knock you out, but likely wont kill you. Weapons on the other hand will likely do serious injuries, so like you said they a have a big presence of danger and lethality. When someone draws a weapon the mood instantly shifts for the worst, they have a feeling of threat that instantly changes the situation.

>>781932

I agree with everything you said, except:

>A punch in comparison can knock you out, but likely wont kill you.

Because one clean ellbow in the face will probably knock you out, and if you are knocked out you are as good as dead (unless you have company), because the "Bad guy" can just jump on you or kick your head as long as he wants to. And just forget about other people helping you, most people are cowards.

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>>757989
>no qt kyudoka gfs in the west

>>757989
>be college freshman
>live in an area where almost all of the surrounding colleges/unis have kendo clubs but here
>thinking about trying to start one
Half because I genuinely love kendo, having done it for about 6 years now, half because I want a qt kendoka gf [spoiler]or just a friend since i have none[/spoiler]

I bring shame to the spirit of kendo

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>>782727
>expecting a cute girl to actually know have experience in kendo
Have fun getting keked by grills who'll give up after a month.

>would a fencer or kendoka be able to beat someone trained in something like BJJ if they had their respective tool

Since all BJJ does is lay down you just stab them when they are on their back

>>782727
>i have none
The things I'd do to not have the obligations of being a friend.

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>>757812
You know this just reminded me of something Ellis Amdur said about bjj. He said in six months he could make a competent bjj player better than most koryu jujutsu guys with a wakizashi, of course that is a fight with short blades which is somewhere in between a sword fight and unarmed combat.

but an unarmed bjj player against anyone half competent with a sword? nah.

>>781963
That of course, you can't really tell if that guy will after knocking you out not just kick you until you are dead. But I think in most people minds there is a difference between wanting to hurt and wanting to kilk someone, and with punches I think a lot of people only think of the first thing. You don't really have the thing with knifes that you can just knock someone out, they are just different levels of aggression. The level of urgency to avoid getting hit is different. Still you want to avoid both of course as much as you can.

>>779924
Actually that might make it worse, the gun with bayonet could be too long. You generally don't want two long weapons, since they would get in each others way. With a short weapon you can work around your long weapon.

The Japanese actually have bayonet fencing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKEP_uSg6q4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2eRNk6GoS0

>>796699
Thanks senpai

>>779196
Indent, the post.

If you want something unique and terrifying, learn that one Polish Scythe MA. Can't remember what its called because I can't speak their gibberish, but once they see on the news you reaped a home invader, I don't think anyone will fuck with you for a good while.

>>797046
Found it. Ukrainian, not Polish. Combat Hopak.

>>797049


Lel, just googled it. And had a good laught..

"Just think of Combat Hopak as like capoeira with furry hats."
>http://www.mandatory.com/2014/12/04/the-worlds-strangest-fighting-styles/9

But I have to disagree, it looks more like Kung Fu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FelPBkRDtK4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2UsRIWbgOE

>>773529
He means they are sports, not martial arts. Fencing and kendo are very far removed from what actual sword fights are like.

>>759120
lol what's wrong with you

Unbeknownst to that random mugger on the street, you have a steal breastplate and chain-mail sleeves under you leather jacket. With armored gauntlets on you hands.

Can I even post?

>>757812

Oh finally I can post.

I used to train traditional Aikido then I gave it up because I never liked the spiritual aspect of it.

Picked JKD recently(a year ago) which we also train in Kali. Now that I compare them somewhat Aikido is way too traditional to be useful. I can use some of the techniques of Aikido when we spar with knives in Kali and they are useful but traditional stuff where you train with your thousand times folded sword are pretty shit because you are not fighting in feudal japan.

If you are never trained against weapons you are pretty fucked, that's why I find BJJ and MMA fags who say it's the best defense thing ever obnoxious. Best way to defend yourself is never to get involved and possibly run away from the conflict.

>>799897
You might be interested to know most kenjutsu guys consider aikido sword work functionally useless and the disarms unrealistic.

Aikido's founder only has a smattering of sword training, and he would teach a little bit to his students who formulated their own sword systems based on what he showed them. Many aikido teachers know this, and say that their aikiken is just a way to hone certainly skills used in unarmed techniques, but a few still insist its practical on some level.

>>799988
>disarms unrealistic.
Only working 0.15% of the time doesn't make something useless. It's the practitioner's fault for not using it during those few times that it would work, and it's the practitioner's fault for not being able to use strategy and tactics during the fight to encourage those times to come out and play.

>>800255
listen the old jujutsu styles that practiced weapons based grappling were practical, in the sense that they gave an armed warrior the skills to grapple with weapons and gave him a better chance of surviving than if they didn't have that training. aikidoka don't even know how to use those weapons properly

>it's the practitioner's fault for not being able to use strategy and tactics during the fight to encourage those times to come out and play.

Thats easy to say... but how many people can do that? you think the big name aikido guys can? because I don't

I recommend you read this, by a guy who did aikido at the aikikai in japan and left it for other arts

http://kogenbudo.org/the-use-of-weapons-in-aikido-training/

>>800272
>I recommend you read this, by a guy who did aikido at the aikikai in japan and left it for other arts
The guy also have menkyo kaiden in two koryu bujutsu, it's not like he only did aikido and if I remember, he started doing koryu before or in the same time as aikido. No wonder aikido based weapon stuff were pale to him...

>>799897
>JKD
Are you like Bruce Lee?

>>800344
From what I read, he started araki ryu awhile after he started aikido. its after that he started having doubts about certain aspects of it. He started having friendly sparring matches with one of his aikido teachers and that teacher always countered him with judo throws. so he stopped doing aikido and started judo

>>801392
Well I've read a good deal of his article but I'm not really an expert in the guy life so you, maybe I mixed things up, I read about the judo throws though, without surprise...
Good article though, having done aikido for quite some time and doing a koryu style now, I can hardly see the flaws in it.

Regardless of how video gamey or weeb this sounds l, what kind of weapon art would help you if you had to defend yourself with something you have, be it a bat, a tire iron, or some shit. I'm sure different martial arts would work with different objects, but which with which? Just curious.

>>803926

Filipino martial arts would work with smaller wepons (anything like coins or a pencil) up to medium size weapons (Machetes, Umbrellas).

For larger, but very light weapons (car aerials) fencing, for medium light weapons (like a bat) Kendo, for heavier wepons (a tire iron) Historical European Martial Arts.


That said, most martial arts included some weapons at some point, for example Muay Thai had originally "Krabi Krabong", where you typically use smaller sabers, shields or tonfa-like guards for the forearm or even a small kind of Halberd. I guess it would also work with hammers, a golf club or something similar..

Old school Karate a fuckload of different weapons: sickles, swords, shields, nunchakus, tonfas, staff, paddle.. you name it.


But even martial arts without native weapon usage can be adapted for weapons, western boxing would work pretty well with stabbing weapons like brass knuckles, a katar or a simple knife.

For any kickboxing realted, boots with steelcabs would add a lot of damage, there are even stories about old school savate bouncers who had switchblade boots. Nasty as hell, because they are hard to see and very hard to block without taking damage.

>>799897

> Aikido is way too traditional to be useful. I can use some of the techniques of Aikido when we spar with knives

Yeah, I train in FMA and have done some Aikido in the past. It's indeed like you say: when you are starting to fight with weapons a lot of the Aikido stuff starts to make sense.

But generally Aikido techniques are way too "beautiful" for actual usage, they are more like a blue print of techniques in terms of giving you a lot of very generall principles (directions where you can move, directions where you can pull or twist). When we do similar techniques in FMA they are much shorter and more agressive, it's not like you make this large ass footwork with this huge body turnings (Tai Sabaki), it's more "step in with a block, punch, get the freaking knife arm out of the way, punch, punch, punch, get the lock, takedown".

So nowadays I consider Aikido more like a "dictionary" for weapons techniques, because they really have a lot of good principles there. But they don't teach you to use them, you have to make them work by combining them with a differnt martial art.


That said, disarms are always a difficult thing. My coach says (and from my personal experience I can confirm) that you don't use disarms until the other guy is already stumbling, because otherwise it's just to difficult to set it up. But if you give the other guy a lot of punishment and he's already halfway done, you still want to get rid of this weapon, because until he's down and out he is still dangerous. That's what disarms are for. On a sidenote: disarms, locks and takedowns are basically the same in FMA, so if you learn a "disarm", you already learned a takedown and a lock.

>>803914
>a koryu style now, I can hardly see the flaws in it.

Ive never done aikido myself so I can only speak from what I have observed and what I have read.

For one thing orthodox aikiken doesn't do a proper cut. Another problem is the techniques do not make a lot of sense, the distancing is also bad, the the emphasis is on blending rather than proper martial timing.

>>804119

>the distancing is also bad

Hey, I'm tha guy from the post above (>>804014) and I can absolutely confirm this.

Story time:
I trained Aikido for about a year, than I changed the city and started with FMA. There I learned to aim with about an inch of accuracy, for example, stopping an inch away from my target.

After two years I decided to give Aikido another try. The first lessons were quite nice, I had totally forgotten to do some of the more difficult stuff (i.e. tenchinage), but I did remember some of the easier ones (ikkyo or kote gaeshi).

Then I joined some other lesson with weapon fighting, where also higher kyu guys were. I trained with someone who was a smug little bugger and constantly gave me this "I'm so much above you" look because he was allowed to wear fancy black pantaloons.. anyway, I'm not saying he didn't earn his hakama, but it was just bad vibrations.

So then we did sword techniques.. First drill was an (surprisingly decent) technique where you parry a horizontal cut with an umbrella block, step to the side and cut back in one motion. The only problem was the distance, the other guys were constantly only making contact at the very tip of the sword and then making a big step away so they could never ever reach the target..

So I made a SLIGHTLY angled step foreward in my movement, but since I was trying to be a good boy I was still miles away from my target. My FMA teacher would definately have laughed about it, but the other guy broke out in a cold sweat and froze totally, then the Sensei approached and told me, that this was way to close and it was nto a real fight and so on.

Of course I said nothing, but there was so much space and the whole scene was so ridiculous that I never returned to that dojo and turned my back to Aikido afterwards.

>>804119
I could hardly see the flaws of the article, not of aikiken.
I didn't phrased it well, I'll admit that.

>>804157
The drill your taking about is pretty well known, its taken from kashima shinto ryu, one of the oldest koryu, but aikido does it very differently.

the kashima verson at 1:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sjx7ZuSHgg

aikiken version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZitsYfEGxVA


as you can see, both the targets and the "winner" are different

they also, I believe, have a very different attitude towards training. I have a book by a student of the school: rediscovering budo, by Roald Knutson, a highly ranked kendoka. he describes very fast pace training where there was serious chance of being hit: "If you forget what to do jump! Jump in any direction but forwards!"

>>803926
SCA.
>Spar a fuckload
>Used to taking a hit
>Good at swinging things into people's heads
>Used to a variety of different weapons
>Used to fighting in a team

>>804001
So would fma help with something like a big old maglite?

>>805246

Definately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayc1xVuJhXE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB7Wlyc4Bsg

>>804157

This is also what bugged me. Those guys in hakamas are usually I'm higher than you cunts which makes the learning impossible.

>>801198
I am not like him. Physically he was top human for his time, right now I don't have time and sources to be like him.

Mentally I'll probably never be like him because he never stopped working he was always training and doing shit.

Spiritually I feel really close to him. I am almost like water and I am enjoying moment most of the time. I feel, not think. I am learning to be ready, not tense.

>>759371
Or just hit them in the Solar Plexus

>>758035
Yes because police will arrest a guy with a wooden sword.
Also, I'm pretty sure you can walk around freely with a bow, as long as you don't shoot with it.

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>>762321
All they talk about is 1v1 where it's about strength but history has shown that winning battles not about proving how strong and brave you are.

>>808269
How strong do you have to be to carry a rapier around and push it into someone's guts? Not strong at all unless it's 1v1 and they have a rapier too.

>>784975
I don't think you are doing it right, find people who you can relate to and they are your friends, like fellow kendo practicers.

>>759286
Did you even read the OP