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Asian Sword Arts General (Bamboo sword edition)

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This thread is for all again sword arts, including Japanese, Chinese and Filipino.

Last thread:
>>1435469

Resources (Japanese)
http://www.koryu.com/library/titles.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenjutsu
http://shinyokai.com/Essays_TeachingShuHaRi.htm
http://kenshi247.net/
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>>1462705
If the FMA guy from the last thread is still here, I would love to know more about his style
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>>1462705
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-myBW-ubCiU
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I curiously how good about Japanese sword art
Why so hard to find a video about Hema vs Jma?
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>>1467755
Because most Japanese sword arts are not interested in competition. and if they were going to do something like that it would be behind closed doors.

There are some styles that do not even want to be video taped, and will even put purposeful mistakes into public demonstrations
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>>1462705
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuI_SambVVk
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>>1462705
kendo shiai

7th dan vs 7th dan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA3nv5GpkcU
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>>1467755
Why would you need to put hema against jma to determine if any of them is "good" anyway ?
Thing is, most if not all of the serious jma practitioners don't care about this, at best they'll be interested by the other art and that's about it.
If hema people want to bridge gaps, I'd say planning a competitive match is in fact a terrible idea, as it just looks like they are eager to prove their stuff is the better one. It has been tried by fairly famous people, while being criticized by some (if not most) and obviously, it lead to nothing at all. Meanwhile, some people are simply trying to look earnestly at both methods, either by talking with the other side or by practicing both.

hema vs jma just seems like a childish way to put them together.
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>>1471088
I wouldn't call it childish, but I would say its contrary to the goals of most (not all) JSA.

We really dont care a lot about the sport element. as living relics of a bygone era, you have to be very careful about innovation and to a lesser extent cross contamination, because once this information is lost, some if it is not recoverable.

I actually would not begrudge private tame shiai between practitioners of JSA and HEMA, though I think its of limited value since there were few actual encounters between western and Japanese swordsmen before the 19th century, and as far as known they had little to no effect on each others evolution.
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>>1471088
the "good" mean the skill is work, not only practicing form 、never fight and feeling good like large amount of CMA,(i know how bad of most CMA swordman)
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>>1473835
Not him but neither were made to work against each other, so it really not a test of the historical effectiveness.

I would not consider most sword sparring I've fight, maybe some of the really rough stuff but most sword sparring is a game, or a training exercise, and should not be confused with a real sword fight. Which is not to say it is not useful, its just not the ultimate nor the practical goal of swordsmanship.
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>>1473893
> Not him but neither were made to work against each other, so it really not a test of the historical effectiveness.

This would be a much better argument if you didn't find so many similarities between longsword and tachi/katana.

I don't think most in the HEMA side want to do this to prove JSA are crap or anything like that, it's more of a chance to see a living tradition in action which might give us some valuable input into what we're doing, if we're on the right track or not.

Of course assholes exist.
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>>1473980
true but a pair up with a rapier or a saber would be more period accurate.

>I don't think most in the HEMA side want to do this to prove JSA are crap or anything like that

I have no problem with JSA and Hema people getting together, as long as no oaths are being broken or anything like that.

I like hema but I do think there has been some kickback from certain hema folks about the kata focus of many koryu, and their sectarian nature which makes them unwilling to participate in such things. But that sectarian nature is one of the reasons they survived in the first place.
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Seeing as this is the only Japanese martial arts thread going on in this board, care to rate my flyer?

I haven't set up the website/blog yet.
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>>1474957
Its terrible. the takamatsu based arts are terrible
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>>1474142
>>1473980
What's funny is how it seems the two are hard to come up together and all.
When I said "childish", my point was that, in many cases, when HEMA people think about trying to meet JSA people (especially jsa people), the first thing that seems to come to their mind for a meeting is sparring, which is to me just crazy. And was childish is to think that sparring would be mandatory for an exchange of experience. I mean, sure if both sides are ok I can't see why not, but sometimes, I think HEMA is just as dependant on sparring than jsa to kata practice.

And then you have people like Federico Malagutti or Michael Edelson who just did the obvious (but maybe not that practical) thing, which is simply to join both sides...

There should be (much) more to those activities than smacking wood (or any other material really), and hopefully that's what's happening anyway.
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>>1475185
It's just that sparring is our default to test things. It might seem odd from a JSA perspective (except kendo i guess?), but it's pretty much the only tool we have to know if we're doing things right.

Sadly there's no guarantee that right is the same as what a certain master meant in a certain treatise, but barring time travel it's as good as we get.
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>>1475185
>>1475196
And i think i might add, sparring might be the public face of HEMA and kata for JSA, but neither is the only thing either one does AFAIK (at least not in all groups in any case).

People just don't tend to record drills as often in HEMA, though there are some more "technique showcase" style videos (with various degrees of intensity and choreography):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohmLaZHStmI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIKMPIFJkzk
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>tfw local kendo club, the-one-where-they-draw-the-sword-only club, and the Kung Fu club all refuse to spar our HEMA club because "mug tradition"

It fucking sucks
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JSA and CMA Kata
VS
HEMA and WMA Assaults
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>>1475196
>>1475203
It's not odd at all, it's just that as you said, jsa and hema don't start from the same grounds (mainly the whole lineage thing) and I should add that they don't aim for the same goals (not exactly the same anyway). Many people seems to think that the goal of both is to breed swordfighters, I think it's absolutely wrong and completely stupid to think so, it should be (and it is) much more complex than that.
Nonetheless, there is plenty of room for exchange between the two (and more), it's just painful to always see hema people think that jsa needs to have sparring in order to be more "whatever" (modern, realistic, good, etc...) and it's true that many jsa are certainly too reclusive (then again, considering their history it's not always hard to understand why). We should look into the other to grow and not try necessarily to bring both under one banner, just because it looks the same.

Of course, there is much more to hema than tournaments and sparring, just like there is more to jsa than kata. That's why I think it's very good that there are some people who try to look into both with fresh ideas.
Personally, I'm a jsa guy and there's no changing that, but it's easy to find hema, and especially research about them, fascinating.
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>>1475278
It should be pointed out that even in jsa, not all kata are the same.
For instance, kata in Itto-ryu tends to be short and numerous (a couple of strikes, and a hundred of kata), whereas in say TSKSR, the single sword kata are few (4 basics) but they are long and contains multiple things in them, so that they could be said to be multiple kata in one.
In some styles, the attacks are done earnestly (strikes to the onigote at the end of Itto-ryu kata), while in TSKSR (once more) the techniques are hidden for more safety. It gives a different vibe to each current, dependent on the era and on the philosophy of the school.
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>>1475185
Its not odd, but culturally asking to spar, even politely, could be regarded as a challenge, not just to the person, but the style itself.

So when such things happen today its naturally behind closed doors.


>>1475278
JSA kata are pretty different from CMA kata.

At least from what I know Hema assaults tend to be literal techniques, Japanese kata contain techniques but are often based on the study of a principle, like" how far can I get off line and still land a cut" or "How can I, using this huge pole arm, land a super accurate strike with enough force to connect but without hurting my teacher"
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>>1474957
That's a lot of jutsu. What school has all that, though? I can only think something like Katori shinto ryu, but you don't seem like someone who has a teaching permit in something like that.
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>>1476648
I'm pretty sure its a bujinkan/takamatsu group. Not something that is really well respected by most in the koryu or gendai sword community.
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>>1474971
>your opinion
>worth shit
Pick one

>>1474957
It got my attention. But I'm a Bujinkan guy.
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>>1477086
I wont toot my own horn, but I am hardly alone, its an opinion widely shared throughout the koryu and kendo communities. Nor is it respected by judo, or jujutsu or modern grappling sport communities. Its widely considered a joke by almost everyone outside the organization.

There blade work I have seen from the bujinkan simply is not practical. and I will never recommend bujinkan to anyone who asks me. there is nothing there worth studying in its current form under hatsumi.

I offer this for public inspection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_92yeZE6bg

My opinion may not be worth shit, but I am pretty sure if your students put themselves off balance by doing a simple thrust, there is a problem.
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>>1475244
"Draw the sword only club"
.
.
.
You mean Iaido?
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>>1462705
And now for something completely different...
Kids doing Nodachi/Yakumaru Jigen-ryu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNWfztbhuy0
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>>1476676
>Bujinkan
Should have thought of that. Do they not advertise with that name anymore? Just throw a bunch of -jutsu and -do stuff on the paper and omit that it's all made up?
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>>1477133
Is it me or there's like tons of implied double kills (tsuki to someone who is in jodan and not expecting a massive downward strike to your face ?) and two tempi vs one tempo actions in this video ?
This plus the weird back weighted stance and jodan, well those depends from style to style but then...
Some of Hatsumi stuff is pretty good, but the kenjutsu, darn it always fails to convince.
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>>1477694
I remember talking to one tenshinshoden katori shinto ryu dude what he thought about Masaaki and his ninja stuff.

"Utter rubbish and the man is a joke in the koryu circles".
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>>1477694
I read in one of Dreagers books that a stab to the stomach will stop a downward cut. I assume he got that from one of his koryu. I dont know if it will work. I suppose there is only one way to find out for sure.

but yeah there blade work is really weird, right down to their stance that appears horribly unbalanced.

>>1477682
Could be a break away group.
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>>1478177
>I read in one of Dreagers books that a stab to the stomach will stop a downward cut.
You'd have to be pretty sure of yourself to do that, and mostly, you should at least step off line of the obvious vertical downward strike, which is absent in Hatsumi's demonstration. If your thrust ain't perfect or if this is just bull, it's pretty much an instant double kill that could have been avoided by simply stepping off line (or stabbing blade a top of you). Not to say that what your remember of Draeger is wrong, just that it's terribly risky.
In TSKSR, thrusts are done in line to gain the opponent's blade and mess with the lines of attack thanks to the blade's curvature, but you don't jump someone who is already in jodan (you do it when they go in jodan). Or then you thrust while in torii so that you're already close and guarding yourself against the obvious downward cut (as seen in well the very first kata really).

And yeah, I know that there is different schools and different ways, but back weighted stances (seigan of all guards), especially with such a short sword seems really weird, slow and risky, it makes sense for stuff like rapiers (and not all styles used it), but with a short-ish nihonto, yeah no. 50/50 stance sure, but back weighted looks very risky.

Then again, it's not like I'm a grandmaster but still...
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>>1478682
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7mf3IY4sfs

This video of their blade work is slightly better, but you will still see some fundamental problems with it.

the uketachi rarely if ever challenges the student with a solid attack, nor does he threaten to evade, thus the student is not challenged either to deliver his attack in a timely manner, nor is he threatened with serious injury if he does not block or evade.

The kata often end with an extraneous second cut to an unresponsive opponent.


That is what I see, perhaps better eyes than mine will see some more positive qualities, or more negative ones

the kata end with a complete lack of zanshin, rather odd for people training in a "ninja art" where you would think awareness would be their first concern
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>>1478723
I don't know what the kata at the end is supposed to teach.

Uke in complete disarray, stumbling around, with nothing really happening outside of tori just manhandling uke.

Here's an example what kata looks like in in one koryu school:
https://youtu.be/cQB5Lc1C_a8?t=3m9s

And kendo:
https://youtu.be/-75N3w9hyjM?t=44s


Both have a sense of maai and zanshin. Purpose, in other words.
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>>1477670
That's adorable. The look like little monkeys (in a non-racist way [I should have to say that, but it's 2016])
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>>1478723
>Tasmania
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>>1462705
Could this work with worked wrestling?
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>>1478776
>I don't know what the kata at the end is supposed to teach.

It bears a remote similarity to kukishin ryu, but compare that to real kukishin ryu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ9IIt1LOyw&list=PL10hw7gRrIP8V465jU_sdANtWmzq7qFXv&index=3

The difference is night and day
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>>1474971

I don't blame you for feeling that way. I'd say 80% of Bujinkan practitioners are incompetent and weak.

But I believe in loyalty, my instructor and the art itself. I started with the Bujinkan in 2005 and had a good instructor. I travel to Japan every year and witness a great deal of fucking around by 'high level' instructors doing shit.

That aside my instructor is very good and we follow a scientific approach to martial arts using the scientific method to pressure test kata and change them where necessary. Our lineage also incorporates sports science and other quantitive advances made by other arts. Overall I would describe it as Bujinkan without the bullshit.

Bujinkan overall is bad, but there are many good people in the Bujinkan. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

>>1476648

It's Bujinkan. I've been training 11 years.

>>1477086

Thanks. I'm wondering if layman will find the poster interesting. I did use many terms that most people will not be familiar with.

>>1476676

Most koryu and gendai arts are pretty shit themselves. I don't believe their respect is worth much.

>>1477682
>>1478177

I don't use the Bujinkan name on my flyers because people don't know what it means. It does say on my blog/website though that we are Bujinkan.

You can view it here. http://ninkokuodojo.blogspot.com.au/
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>>1479051
>The look like little monkeys
Well the (in)famous Jigen-ryu kiai is called en-kyo (monkey's scream), so it kinda makes sense.
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>>1479444
>Most koryu and gendai arts are pretty shit themselves. I don't believe their respect is worth much.
Says the man who follows a charlatan, whose students couldn't fight themselves out of a paperbag.
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>>1479444
>Most koryu and gendai arts are pretty shit themselves. I don't believe their respect is worth much.

You sure about that? there's alot of bad and mediocre stuff, sure. There are also people who are pretty freaking amazing. Go out to a high level kendo or judo dojo headed by a 7th or 8th dan, look up what some of the top koryu guys, many of whom have tons of experience in combat sports and other arts beside koryu, doing excellent systems have said about the bujinkan.

Or you could just politely ask to train under them and evaluate for yourself

>That aside my instructor is very good and we follow a scientific approach to martial arts using the scientific method to pressure test kata and change them where necessary.

pressure testing is good, but its not the scientific method, testing is only part of the scientific method.

Anyway, pressure testing is good, but there is a difference between experimenting with good material and not. You might find that a few hours with someone how knows what their doing is better than a few years working with bad material.
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>>1478776
>>1478723
And I guess that's why in old styles, the role of uke is almost always given to the most experienced practitioner. When it ain't, there is a good chance it devolves into the teacher showing what a great boss he is and students who don't dare going far enough, just being the teacher's puppets (in vids only hopefully but well).
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>>1480533
>And I guess that's why in old styles, the role of uke is almost always given to the most experienced practitioner.

That same criticism has been leveled at aikido by Ellis Amdur. while to an outsider it appears very "traditional" in fact the traditional roles are completely reversed with the students often serving as "crash test dummies" for the senior.

because of this, the students often wind op without of complete understanding of what is happening, and the teacher ends up with a far inflated view of his abilities.
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>>1462705
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiqcmntUi-8&
Here's a very interesting video for those interested and didn't know about it. It's a demonstration of some katori kenjutsu kata during a presentation for the emperor in the late 1920's. One of the two guys is Risuke Otake's teacher (Hayashi Yazaemon) and if you thought that Otake-ha was fast, well... at least we can say he got that from his teacher.

One of the most interesting thing though, is that in the seven kata shown here, we have alongside usual ones, one gogyo-no-tachi and most importantly one gokui-shichijo-no-tachi (the penultimate one displayed), which are the most advanced solo sword kata of the ryuha. Granted, it's hard to see it because of the bad quality of the video and the speed of the execution, still, it's quite the document. I think it's one of the only video where such kata is demonstrated (it's certainly the first I've ever seen).
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>>1481882
I'm pretty sure it's sped up like many older videos. At least i can't judge speed through that.
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>>1480602
This is funny, because the old way is something actually preserved in BJJ of all things.
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>>1480602
>>1482001
On the HEMA side this is really weird. We have no tradition but it's pretty obvious as soon as you try to train any technique that if the one who should get hit doesn't know how to do his part things are going to get awkward.

Also he's the one who determines the difficulty of the exercise and should adapt it to challenge the student.
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>>1481979
It does indeed look sped up a bit (maybe 15-25%), though not that much (looking at the footwork), it's quite clear they are already pretty fast though. The execution is still on the fast side, I wouldn't say it's definitely faster than Otake's demonstration of the late 70's, nonetheless it's an indication that he took this approach from his teacher and that he ain't someone that came up with those fast demonstrations of the kata, it was already done back then.

>>1482026
The mechanic of uchidachi / shidachi is definitively an interesting one and it could be well applied in HEMA or any other styles for that matter. I'd say it's much more an educationnal method than really a "tradition".
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>>1482067
I meant tradition on which side the master acts as.

And i'd say we apply it even if we don't have names for it. Whenever an exercise involves "predefined roles" it's being used unless i've misunderstood the terms quite badly.
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>>1482067
Ive found the great problems of these videos is that you really cant judge how fast the people in them really are. But they do often have alot of stuff in them that you rarely if ever see today.
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>>1480444

>You sure about that? there's alot of bad and mediocre stuff, sure. There are also people who are pretty freaking amazing. Go out to a high level kendo or judo dojo headed by a 7th or 8th dan, look up what some of the top koryu guys, many of whom have tons of experience in combat sports and other arts beside koryu, doing excellent systems have said about the bujinkan.

You are right. There are amazing koryu and gendai budo. I know because I've been doing Judo for 10 years and at an international competitive level, however the main issue with these systems is their interoperability. It's like evolution. Highly specialised martial arts (like Judo) are like a highly specialised species. They are really good at one thing and very successful in their environment, but if there is a shift in environment or the ecosystem changes they die out because they can't adapt.

Specialised martial arts can't adapt because they are 'set in their ways'. This is also a big issue with koryu as well. So rigid and traditional that they cannot even see that their material would not work in our reality.

Bujinkan is like a species of mammal during the Cretaceous period. Highly adaptable, but comparatively weak to other more specialised species, though it has unlimited potential to develop in a variety of ways. Arts like Judo would be akin to a highly successful species like the shark or crocodile that survived the impact event. At the peak of its evolution and at an evolutionary dead end. There is no argument that a shark is one of the most powerful apex predators on the planet, but it still gets eaten by humans.

Bujinkan still has some ways to go in terms of evolution - but I feel that I've backed the horse with the most potential.
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>>1480444

>Or you could just politely ask to train under them and evaluate for yourself

There are Bujinkan members that are also high level Koryu practitioners, one of my friends is a high level in Katori Shinto Ryu for instance.

My instructors themselves have visited many of the Koryu schools to compare and contrast what they do, to what we do, and they stuck with the Bujinkan for various reasons.

It all comes back to potential. Koryu is limited because it specialises and relies on tradition.

Bujinkan is unlimited because it relies on inquiry, innovation and development.

In my 11 years with the Bujinkan I'm undoubtedly no better than a kyu grade in any specialised koryu system, the difference is though that I can use any weapon at any range in any situation. I believe this is more valuable than being good at a single thing.

>Anyway, pressure testing is good, but there is a difference between experimenting with good material and not. You might find that a few hours with someone how knows what their doing is better than a few years working with bad material.

You are correct, and my instructors do lack in certain areas and they know it, and they know I know it. That is why we hold many seminars and certain practitioners go off and specialise in one way or another and bring that back to teach.

There is a great misunderstanding here though. Bujinkan practitioners don't aim to be good at any one thing, they aim to be competent at many things.

Competency only requires a working knowledge, not mastery.

> Yes, I chose that image for a reason. Illustrates my point.
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>>1482258
your talking out of your ass. How would you know how rigid and tradtional koryu are, the only "koryu" youve trained in is Eishin ryu Iaido, which most koryu people do not think of as koryu anymore.

You've never trained with a group like shinkage ryu. or araki ryu or katori shinto ryu and have no idea what they have to offer.


bujinkan, is like a dead husk. It has the shape of a martial art, but the vital spirit is gone. And while you can potentially learn a lot from a corpse, its a curiosity, a specimen. You can find aikiken that looks more convincing than bujinkan weapons demos.
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>>1482284
high level is katori shinto ryu huh, probably not otake's line since I doubt he would allow such nonsense.

>It all comes back to potential. Koryu is limited because it specialises and relies on tradition.

>Bujinkan is unlimited because it relies on inquiry, innovation and development.

This is silly because it implies koryu do not do any of that and that bujinkan does. All Ive seen from bujinkan is the forms of various koryu being done, poorly without even understanding the teaching methodology as this thread has been discussing.

backyard samurai are experimenting and inquiring, but they are not making much progress reinventing the wheel. I know a group doing the same with aikiken, and what they have come up with is far from inspiring. talking of innovation means nothing if you cannot show any actual innovation or progress from your experiments. Furthermore, if you have to rip your system apart to make progress, rather than small tweeks or finding it already meets your needs, that means your system was pretty flawed to begin with

There are koryu that pressure test and innovate, more to the point there are many who have taken koryu and adapted their principles to various specialties in the modern world, from modern combatives to crisis intervention, to academic study of martial arts. I have not seen anything from you camp that measures up.
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>>1482258
>>1482284
>This is also a big issue with koryu as well. So rigid and traditional that they cannot even see that their material would not work in our reality.
What is this reality exactly ? Do you think that people who have dedicated their lives to their koryu did so to have skills that directly applies to "reality", that they did so to become, like, "ultimate swordsmen" ? If so it's ridiculous really.
Also, there are stuff like sogobujutsu koryu, who teaches all sorts of material, from weapons to empty hand AND they do have the legitimacy of their lineages and all. Proven techniques for antiquated stuff if that matters.

We are talking about swords, glaives and spears, things that are (directly) of no use and that almost no one will ever use in their lives. In that regard I guess trying to maintain an old koryu tradition has a lot of merits over trying to "adapt to the reality". Swords and nagamaki are anachronistic, you talk good but then why is that bujinkan don't have course with pistols and modern rifles in their curriculum ?

Related, if by any chance you didn't read it.
http://shinyokai.com/Essays_Assumptions.htm
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>>1482258
>>1482284
The thing with "Outdated" koryu, is that in the end, all their students are still miles better than anything Masaaki Hatsumi has ever taught.

Masaaki and his ilk have no legitimacy, so they started in last few years talking about how Bujinkan is an "evolving" and "modern" martial art that is better for this "modern" world.

You want modern martial art that can be taught to the masses instead of handpicking people like in koryu schools? Go to army.

But I get you. You want to train with swords and shurikens and shit, wear black pyjamas. What Bujinkan teaches is nothing more than Masaaki Hatsumi's childish fantasies. You want real ninjutsu? Go ask Risuke Ootake. He actually has legitimate teacher whose grave he can show you. And his teacher's teacher's grave. And his teacher's. And so on. All the way to the age where ninjutsu was actually used.

But nevermind that, let's go for the evolving part. You say you have a "modern" martial art? Evolving one?

Put it to actual fucking modern test then. Go and compete in multitude of mixed martial art tournaments. Create your own tournament. Speaking of tournaments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pJWGFe5ISY

Here's what a modern martial art with japanese roots looks like.

Oh, and they actually test their fucking stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B9_0ppnvF8

When I try to find Bujinkan competition or mma, I find nothing, because you guys don't actually test your "modern" art, effectively rendering it into a form of ninja LARP.

And as fun as LARPing is, you can't really call it a martial art with a straight face, now can you?
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>>1462705
More 10th dan kendo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGtXO0yC9g
>>
If I bring my 120cm rapier and 60cm parrying dagger, would one of you like to spar with me?
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>>1486928
>60cm parrying dagger,
wanna try again?
>>
>>1486928
Did you like, read the thread ? What style do you practice since we are at it ? Do you do e-sparring ?
>>
>>1486939
What's the problem? The left hand daggers commonly in use in Spain are about that long.~30 cm quillons too.
>>
>>1486469
And about that,
http://kenshi247.net/blog/2015/07/03/kendo-judan/
>>
>>1487503
Its interesting how much of kendo was not formalized until relatively late. There a still a handful of prewar and gekiken styles of kendo in japan and abroad. The most interesting thing about prewar kendo is they take a slightly wider stance, probably to deal with grappling.
>>
>>1462705
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg_P3QCaA7I

Jikishinkage ryu shinai shiai
>>
>>1488045
It isn't that surprising though. Before the war, what we would called kendo wasn't that strongly unified, (what would be) the kendo kata made in 1911-12 by a group of the DNBK was more a common set of kenjutsu techniques serving as a reference for all schools and education.
Back in the late Edo era, there was already meetings and shiai between the big ryu-ha that had implement shinai-geiko in their system (variants of Itto-ryu such as Nakanishi-ha, Kogen, Hokushin; Jikishinkage-ryu; Kyoshin Meishi-ryu; Shindo Munen-ryu; etc...). In a certain sense, pre-war kendo was simply a continuation of those inter-school shiai contests in a more organized fashion, a necessary thing after a first decline of kenjutsu in the 1870's. In that regard, it makes sense that pre-war kendo still shows traces of particular koryu styles or specific traditions, many people who where doing kendo would also be engaged in a koryu or even several (or had masters who were). Under the DNBK, it was more a collection of different traditions brought together under a comprehensive system, ruleset, and organization, but it's no wonder that individual styles would still surface. As you pointed out, the rules back then weren't the same as now, so it also changed habits and needs (I'm sure that if we were to take a look at 1900's olympic fencing, we would find many differences compared to today).

After the war and the breakdown of many old traditions, the complicated revival of kendo in the late 1940's - early 1950's, it's sensible that a stronger unified art would emerged of the ashes.
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>>1493774
There was definitively more familiarity with the old traditions in pre-war kendo, however its much closer to modern kendo than it is to the little koryu gekiken Ive seen. There are only little changes between pre-war kendo and modern kendo.
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>>1462705

this haga-ha kendo video got alot of negetive comments on youtube, but I wonder what the people here think about it.

from what Ive read I believe its a gekiken style kendo which is interlinked with the dojo's muso shinden ryu iaido

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVnK1Sw7HuI
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>>1487031
Destreza and Giagantti.

I've read that Miyomoto Musashi's style was inspired by European traders and their use of rapier and dagger.

I'm curious as to whether or not Samurai would have had contact with Portugeuse, Dutch and English Sailors.
>>
>>1496776
've read that Miyomoto Musashi's style was inspired by European traders and their use of rapier and dagger.


Almost certainly a myth. Musashi was not the only swordsman to train two sword style, just the most famous.

to my knowledge Katori shinto ryu possessed two sword techniques long before Musashi was born
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>>1496832
Even if Katori Shinto ryu claims that every single one of it's techniques is tenshin shoden, transmitted from the gods and the founder unchanged, not everyone takes that at face value.

The fact is, the older scrolls of Iisaza family show very different curriculums with little similiarities to the current situation. The oldest ones I've seen have mostly spear and sword techniques.

I for one believe that much of the curriculum, including batto and ryoto, is a later addition. And to be clear, it doesn't make it less valuable in my eyes. Change like that is only natural.
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>>1497006
Ive read that, and it does not surprise me, which is why I said "to my knowledge."

I am curious, are you a member? if not, where did you get a chance to see such scrolls
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>>1494418
We could roughly determined three phases of the gekken/kendo. So late Edo era shinai geiko, early Meiji Gekken Kogyo, post DNBK pre-war early kendo, modern post-war kendo. Apparently, the styles of the swordsmen changed specifically for gekken kogyo as it was a show as much as a serious shiai, so we have one step that separates koryu gekken from early-kendo while being tightly linked to both.
I would argue that it may be the (not so missing) link between those two stylistically, pre-war kendo being a more serious approach while gekken kogyo was already diverging from koryu gekken. That would be why pre-war kendo is already fairly "kendo-ish" enough, the diverge from koryu gekken was already done by the 1900's through the decline/revival phase of the late 19th.
Just a theory mind you...
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>>1496776
>I've read that Miyomoto Musashi's style was inspired by European traders and their use of rapier and dagger.
Most certainly a myth. The japanese were using their sword one-handed as soon as their inception, I find it very unlikely that they would need europeans to think about using both simultaneously, after all, it only takes one curious individual to do so.
Besides, as stated, numerous styles other than HNIR use two-swords, Tatsumi-ryu for another example.

>>1497006
>>1497046
I've also read that, considering the immense curriculum of TSKSR, it isn't surprising. Now for the question, did they implement those two (ryoto and iai) before the mid-16th century ? Iai techniques certainly started to develop during that time period, so it would make sense.

Many big schools have had serious changes in direction and certainly practices as soon as the founder passed the tradition (Shinkage-ryu, Itto-ryu). It's possible that it's also true for TSKSR, even though it stayed within the family...? It may also be a case of the founder instructing his disciples, starting to research stuff and giving the task of systemizing the new stuff to said disciples... (wonder how Iizasa Choisai Ienao would have done nukiuchi no ken at 70+). It kinda match the time period anyway.
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>>1496327
As a HEMA guy my thought is "give them some more gear and steel blunts and lets have a go at each other".

They'd surely kick my ass in the grappling game since we don't do it much for now.
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>>1497240
>give them some more gear and steel blunts and lets have a go at each other
SHAMEFUR DISPRAY
>>
>>1496327
>>1497240
In that regard, if some didn't knew about this video made for the Frères Lumière about early kendo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN9SDF05nX0

Quite frantic ! Then there's grappling and even a kusarigama, wonder what is the exact place and style, mind you at that time the DNBK was just formed, kendo kata didn't exist, the style was only in its infancy, but the tradition of shinai-geiko... certainly wasn't.
>>
>>1497281
>>1497240
Already done though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7nUFpznK7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNsS_VW5Zhw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfhDqk8-0jM (at the end of it)

Then again, it's mostly Toyama-ryu, ie a modern style, not that there is anything wrong with that.
>>
>>1497287
Now if only they weren't at the other side of the globe...
>>
>>1493774

Interesting post. I really lament the fact that Kendo basically is a standardized sport these days. It was when I've been to my first regional competition that I realized this. Every single fighter used the same stance, the same movements, the same attacks, everything. This way, your victory depends only on two things: who has learned these moves for the longer time and who has the higher base reflexes.

It would be far more interesting if all the old styles were allowed. I mean depending on the tournament, you can only use the chodan no kamae, nothing else. I get it that Kendo is mainly spiritual, but you can't blame an aspiring swordsman wanting to challenge fighters from all over the world, seeing and absorbing their unique styles. We already have Iaido, why make Kendo so dull? Really regretable but I guess this is natural result of a giant organization having reign over Kendo.
>>
>>1497523
All of them aren't, in fact, Toyama-ryu and its derivative styles are pretty common in the western world. They certainly don't all spar with steel (or metal) though. Michael Edelson who is also doing HEMA is doing Toyama-ryu in NYC for instance (iirc).
Since they are gendaï and not koryu, they are a little bit easier to find and maybe to approach.
>>
>>1497845
However, kendo has adapted the moves that work best under their ruleset. This homogenization actually began during the edo period, many han set up multi style academies that focused on shinai keiko.
>>
>>1497856
>>1497523
There not a closed group from what I understand either, and people from other japanese sword arts can participate as well.

http://www.gekiken.org/contact.shtml

you might be able to contact them here if your interested
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>>1499985
Holy crape, some of the positions they're in look EXACTLY like those seen in "Gründtliche Beschreibung der Kunst des Fechtens" by Joachim Meyer.
It's uncanny...
>>
>>1502117
Well, in fact not that much... As Angelo Viggiani said, there's an infinity of stances, postures and guards, but only a certain few that are really useful. It makes perfect sense that both here and there, we find the same kind of postures for the same activity with comparable weapons. This ressemblance has been noticed a long time ago, but then it doesn't mean that the styles are the same either, just that there are logically pretty similar stuff. There is only a handful of sensible postures and only a handful of logical blows,it's no wonder that those two overlap. One guard leads to a blow and each blow ends in a guard, like action and rest, Yin and Yang.
But a style is more than a group of guards and blows, what defines it is its core concepts and in that regard, one ryuha is just as different from anoter than from Meyer, just like Fiore and PPvDanzig are different (but close). I think we should highlight this rather than oppose jsa to hema by geography. JSA and HEMA are very varied things in themselves, because they are a vast range of martial traditions over a vast range of time and space, there isn't "one jsa style", just like there isn't "one hema style", though some looks probably more iconic than others (KdF here, Itto-ryu variants there for instance).

How they are similar should be the thing that attract us into looking how dissimilar they are, in their core concepts. And in the end, there is food for thought everywhere !

Anyway, yeah, alber is gedan, vom tag is hasso/moku/in or jodan, ochs is gasumi, schlüssel is Katori's shin, coda longa is waki/sha, bicorno/kron is shissaï, posta breve/pflug is chudan and then zornhau is kiri-otoshi, and all the meisterhau are found more or less the same (but with true edge only obviously) in one ryuha or another.
But you won't take the originality of paranoïa-ïajutsu from the japanese though...
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>>1502463
Eh, there's some stuff about defending with the sword in the scabbard in Fiore IIRC, also comments on things people did with their scabbards so they could draw faster (actually being open at the side for example, held closed with needles) i can't recall where. Oh and Godinho saying that if you go for a walk with your montante you should have it a bit out of the scabbard or not carry a scabbard at all just in case. So they didn't go as far with it but the paranoia was somewhat there too.
>>
>>1502480
>>1502480
Iaïdo (and the likes) is still pretty specific to Japan. Sure, some HEMA treatises have a couple of drawing plays or instructions (Fiore, Viggiani, Godinho, Thibault, St-Didier), but never really to the same level of complexity or development as the japanese techniques who had specific parts in their curriculum (and even a name to describe such techniques). Usually, in the HEMA treatises, it's only one or two instructions, in japanese koryu that deals even moderetaly with this, it can be at least a dozen of kata (In TSKSR who is more a generalist style with a focus on the sword, there is 11 basic plays), so there's definitely a specificiality (not that it makes it more "complete" or anything).
I'd blame the political climate of the Sengoku Jidai... and paper doors. Now of course there's no reason to think that it makes the japanese "faster to draw" than european swords or that cutting from the draw is a "superior technique", that's ridiculous, but that's a funny weird focus nonetheless.
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>>1502117

Are you familiar with convergent evolution?

It's a process whereby organisms that are not closely related, independently evolve similar traits as a result of having to adapt to similar environments.

I believe the same thing happens with martial arts (and many other things).

If you look at martial arts from India, China, Europe, the Americas and Eastern Asia you see uncanny similarities because that is just the most efficient and effective way to do something and not necessarily a matter of influence. Even grappling and fighting depictions left over from the Ancient Greeks and the Ancient Egyptians contain all the same techniques even though they had limited contact with one another (at that point in history).

I believe there is one optimal technique for each moment in time that takes all the physics, psychology and biomechanics into account. These techniques are devoid of 'style' or 'lineage' or historical development, they are just pure science - pure utilitarian function.
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>>1502602
>comic subtly badmouthing Only fencing
This is why you'll never make it to the Olympics kek
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>>1502691

> lunging like a dipshit into a kill zone

Olympic fencing is like Olympic Boxing, Olympic Football, Olympic Kendo or Olympic Judo.

A tragedy.
>>
>>1503089
Kendo isnt in the Olympics, in fact most kendo authorities outside korea are opposed to the idea.

They especially hate the idea of electronic scoring.
>>
>>1503089
1250 is my jam desu senpai
>>
>>1502463
You also often here that koryu, and this is probably true for any living linage with any combative vitality, have their own distinct personalities. Long time members often show little idiosyncrasies that allow those in the know to identify them as a student of so and so art.

The basics of cut and thrust dont vary too much, but the mindset can be radically different.
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>>1506145
>identify them as a student of so and so art.
And even of particular teachers. I remember reading about someone going for a koryu seminar and the head of the seminar, without knowing him and ever having seen him, knew who he's teacher was and since how many years just by looking at his technique. A bit scarry when you think about it.

>The basics of cut and thrust dont vary too much, but the mindset can be radically different.
Yep, and therefore mindset and a style's "personality" is all that really matter. What's fun is how with roughly the same bag of tricks, two styles come up with two sorta different solutions for one similar-ish problem.
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>>1506271

the mindset is important, as if the teaching methodology.

I think Modern kendo is a good example. Theoretically they have most if not all the basic pieces of a sword system, well designed if generic kata, shinai keiko which is at least supposed to illuminate the principles in those kata, opportunities to expand into iaido, jodo, and matches with jukendo and naginata

Yet because of the way its trained, those pieces rarely come together properly.
>>
Nakakura Kiyoshi. 9th dan kendo/iaido, one of the top competitive kendoka of his time.

He was also for a short time, the son in law and successor of Ueshiba Morihei the founder of aikido

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TnkZedjiXM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCll4m4LwY
>>
if you're sick of /asp/ come check out the >>>/jp/asag/ thread tomorrow

it will be an interesting experiment.
>>
>>1512586
i have my doubts, I mean its mostly talking about visual novels and video games there
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