I became a vegan 3 weeks ago and the next logical step was to

>>2312409
>vet
>female
There's your problem

>>2312409
bait

>>2312411
counter bait dubs

>>2312411
>Hurr dae females r so dumb joak

Consult a veterinary nutritionist, they went to vet school and then a specialist program. They'll be able to help you out.

>>2312409
Imagine that your respective roles were reversed.

Would you like it if your dog decided that you were only going to eat sausages from now on?

>>2312413
I'm sure it's bait.
I hope it's bait.
But you and I both know these people are not only out there, but they post on /an/ as well.
Still probably bait.

don't take advice from people online. if you had a question about your health you'd talk to a medical professional, do the same for your animals.

>>2312414
they are, though.

>>2312448
Of course. That's why I feed my dog a vegan diet.

My question to you guys is not if I should but where does the butthurt and sense that people know more than vets come from

>>2312448
I don't know man.
"don't make your dog a vegetarian " sounds like pretty solid advice this time.
But generally yeah, don't take advice online.

>>2312451
parents do the same thing with their kids as people do with their dogs in regards to thinking they know more than professionals

as long as a food is formulated to meet AAFCO nutritional standards and the dog is eating enough to maintain weight, dog will be fine. although I'd recommend natural balance vegetarian kibble because they're a larger company with years of experience making dog food.

>>2312454
>muh state knows my pet's nutrient requirements

We laugh at retards like you who think sustaining CARNIVORES on dry corn kibble is the way to go.

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I don't understand why you'd want to. I mean I guess as long as the dog is healthy and everything I don't have a problem with it, but why go through the extra trouble of making an animal with a naturally meat-based diet and digestive system eat only plants? That's what they're built to digest, the dog can't help it. If you want to be a vegan and have a vegan pet, then get something herbivorous like a rabbit or guinea pig.

>>2312464
dogs aren't carnivores, they're omnivores. they are able to digest grains and absorb nutrition from them.

>>2312409
It's a human only fad, and it's crazy expensive, so you *will* underfeed your dog. And for nothing too. With a little bit more effort in self education you'd know that agriculture kills more rare irreplaceable animals than cattle breeding. You brainless supplement shill prey.

>>2312485
>Regurgitating what grade school tells you

http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/are-dogs-carnivores-heres-what-new-research-says

http://www.snr.missouri.edu/fw/faculty/pdf/gompper/intraguild-competition.pdf

Dogs
are the world’s most common carnivore and are known to interact
with wildlife as predators, prey, competitors, and disease reservoirs or vectors.
Despite these varied roles in the community, the interaction of dogs with sympatric wild
carnivore species is poorly understood. We review how dogs have been classified in the
literature, and illustrate how the location and ranging behaviour of dogs are important
factors in predicting their interactions with wild prey and carnivores.
We detail evidence of dogs as intraguild competitors with sympatric carnivores in the
context of exploitative, interference and apparent competition.
Dogs can have localized impacts on prey populations, but in general they are not exploit-
ative competitors with carnivores. Rather, most dog populations are highly dependent on
human-derived food and gain a relatively small proportion of their diet from wild prey.
However, because of human-derived food subsidies, dogs can occur at high population
densities and thus could potentially outcompete native carnivores, especially when prey is
limited.
Dogs can also be reservoirs of pathogens, because most populations around the world are
free-ranging and unvaccinated. Diseases such as rabies and canine distemper have resulted in
severe population declines in several endangered carnivores coexisting with high-density dog
populations. Dogs can therefore be viewed as pathogen-mediated apparent competitors,
capable of facilitating large-scale population declines in carnivores.

>>2312409
Jesus fucking Christ I hope this is bait

>be /an/
>claim to love animals
>yeah I love animals so I grind animals to feed mine imstead of giving them a healthy plant based diet

Really makes you think

>>2312589
It makes me think that you feed your dog shit tier dried kibble.
The solution to this problem is serving your dog quality food, not imposing your beliefs on an animal who literally couldn't give a fuck less.

>>2312593
Why even reply? This is obvious and poorly executed bait

>>2312589
>be /an/
>claim to love animals
>Thinks natural carnivore should be forced to eat plants because "muh animal cruelty"

Really makes you think

>>2312628

Dogs aren't "natural". They evolved from an ancestral wolf-like canine that was domesticated by humans over the course of thousands of years.

The ancestor of the dog no longer exists, and the second closest relative of the dog, the grey wolf, is genetically distinct from the dog, and lacks the mutations dogs have that help them digest plant matter.

Dogs are omnivores and perfectly capable of thriving on a vegan diet.

Bramble the dog lived to age 27 without eating meat.

>>2312593

Do you not "impose your beliefs" on the animals you eat?

>>2312490

>agriculture kills more rare irreplaceable animals than cattle breeding.

Cattle are mostly fed grains and pulses. A vegan diet "consumes" less edible plant matter than a diet that includes conventionally produced meat.

>>2312628
dogs evolved from a carnivorous animal, during that evolution they developed the ability to eat and benefit from the nutrition in grains/plants.

>>2312642
>I'm a litle bit better than you. We both killed that forest full of biodiversity for the fields, and we both keep killing those wild things that want a piece of harvest from those fields, and harm wild things through pests that breed around harvests, but you double that through grain-fed meat, although I maybe too, through the produce of my supplements, but the details are shady.
Deal with it. Just our sheer existing harms things and there's no way around it. Eat and pray for the souls of who died for your stomach.

even though this thread op is surely b8, I'll throw my two cents in for people actually posting about this

I'm a vegan vet tech, and think feeding any non naturally herbivore animal a vegan diet is shitty. in dogs it CAN theoretically survive with the right mix of foods and supplements, but honestly, it's still not ethical or logical to do. Humans can make their own diet choices and can easily communicate if they feel sick which may be related to their diet and easily thrive on a plant based diet. Dogs however can't, so you're taking such a huge fucking gamble with their nutrition and over all health, all for giving them a diet that they would just survive on, not thrive as they could on a diet they were meant to have

if you truly are a vegan, you should want to give your pets the absolute best quality of life that you can. feeding them a diet which gives them their best life they can have is part of that.

>>2312741

>Humans can make their own life choices and can easily communicate if they want to be inseminated with machines and then later have their throats slit. Cows can't.

>>2312414
Femanon here.
They are dumb.

>>2312741

Also, it's not a "huge fucking gamble" to feed a dog a balanced vegan diet.

There is no evidence whatsoever that dogs fed a balanced meat-based diet do better than dogs fed a balanced plant-based diet.

Dogs have evolved specific genetic makeups to enable them to digest plant matter, and many dogs have survived to and beyond their expected lifespans on the latter.

>>2312745
>anthropomorphisising animals

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99.9% sure this is bait but why dont you hunt/fish for ethically harvested BIOLOGICALLY APPROPRIATE food sources for your dog.

>>2312638
>Bramble the dog lived to age 27 without eating meat.

And he hated every minute of it.

>>2312741
Nice larping

In case this isn't bait,

>http://www.whyanimalsdothething.com/posts/carnivores-and-vegan-pet-food

There is no ethical reason to put a dog on vegan pet food unless it is allergeic or intolerant to every single commonly available animal protein from eggs to fish to kangaroo to bison. A dog with that degree of food intolerance would be better off being euthanized.

>>2312409
>3 weeks ago

Bait needs a tad more subtly.

Some dogs do worse on high-carb diets than other's. Especially those with ear yeast issues.

When people eat vegan they eat plants mostly in natural form. Try making x-food substitute that is usually meat from plant matter and you get high carb processed crap like veggie-burgers or soy based crap or tofu stand-ins.

People who ate only that would be unhealthy as fuck. Hell technically an all oreo diet is vegan. Will give you the most ecofriendly diabetes.

That crap is like vegan dogfood, meat substitute made from plant startches. Your food for your dog is all they eat. Don't make it shit.

>>2312748
Selective breeding is not fucking evolution.

>>2312901

http://study.com/academy/lesson/artificial-selection-in-evolution.html

Derp

I secretly feed my vegan relatives' dog some meat-based dog food whenever I can.

I also once slipped some meaty bits in their food when they weren't looking.

>>2312409
Don't tell anyone, lmao. Do you really have to tell people that you or whoever else is vegan?

>>2312490
> With a little bit more effort in self education you'd know that agriculture kills more rare irreplaceable animals than cattle breeding.
This is the dumbest post in this thread, and that's saying something.

>>2312746
*We are dumb
Ftfy

>>2312915
That is pretty much the entire appeal of being vegan, telling people you're vegan

>>2312913
ur a hero

>>2312741
Technically if you were a vegan for "muh animal rights" you shouldn't have a pet period beyond a garden

>>2312638
And Bluey lived 29 years on a diet of table scraps and rodents. What's your point?

>>2312638
>but muh animal products have magical properties!

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>>2312409
>I became a vegan 3 weeks ago and the next logical step
Stopped right there

>>2312779
Idk what you mean by that

>>2312915
This is such a weird thing. I never bring up being vegan unless someone asks me, and they STILL meme about "hurr vegans shove it in people's faces". It's like the very existence of vegans triggers carnists. I don't get it.

>>2314148
It's called adopting, anon. and I mostly went vegan for ethical and environmental reasons

>>2315300
bad comparison, cats CANT survive on a vegan diet unless it's highly supplemented and they would still likely get sick. while dogs CAN survive it's still not ideal.

>>2312642
>Cattle are mostly fed grains and pulses
Buy grassfed or pastured beef, you insufferable oaf.

>>2315422
that's still shitty for the encipherment. Cattle pollute like hell and if you think that we have enough room to meet the current demand for beef while having them as grass fed or pastured instead of factory farmed, you're naive

>>2315423
*environment

what the hell

>>2315402
Unrelated to the topic at hand and purely asking for the sake of my curiosity, but could a cat (or dog, I guess) live on a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet with minimal health risk? Or on a diet based on invertebrate protein?

A lady I was talking to said she found a declawed kitten someone had abandoned outdoors and it was surviving by eating slugs and snails because it couldn't kill critters very easily, so that's what got me thinking.

>>2315423
If you think humans couldn't remain perfectly healthy on a fraction of the beef currently produced, then "no u." Buy meat from pastured livestock and buy less of it. Buy sustainably sourced fish. And Stop. Eating. So. God. Damn. Much.

>>2315424
Oh, good, I thought you were making a really shitty attempt at using a five-dollar word.

>>2312409
Be a vegan. Who cares what you eat so long as you aren't being a prick about it...but you're being a prick about it by making your dog vegan as well. Assuming this isn't bait, which I desperately hope it is.

>>2312782
Did anyone even notice this? It's a well-reasoned informative read.

>>2315433
FUCKING THIS.

>>2312638
>Bramble the dog lived to age 27 without eating meat.
Bramble ate whole foods cooked fresh daily, not shitty grocery store kibble. She was also exercised regularly and not overfed. That's going to be what she has in common with other long-lived dogs, not being vegan.
You can be damn sure that if any other exceptionally long-lived dogs were fed vegan diets, their owners wouldn't be able to resist announcing it to the world, and you'll note that Bramble is pretty alone in that regard.

>>2312492
quit spouting conjecture as fact

>>2315427
>but could a cat (or dog, I guess) live on a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet with minimal health risk?
well I know evangers makes a canned lacto-ovo food that actually is decent and I've seen dogs do well on it before at work, is certified to be nutritionally complete and all that. I still don't openly recommend it to people though because I personally want more evidence over a longer period of time before reccomending it. supposedly is good for cats too but I haven't seen any cat fed a non meat including diet to really say but it could theoretically be done

I've mostly seen it being fed to animals with allergies or that need low calorie/fat/proteins diets. works well for that at least

>kitten
how long was the kitten outside for? it could be that they just weren't on their own long enough for any serve deficiencies to occur

>>2315502
>Can't refute the source
>Calls it conjecture because it hurts your feelings

Vegans.

Dogs are carnivores, end. You don't even have an argument.

>>2315822
I'm not advocating for dogs to be fed a vegan diet, but they're not strict carnivores either. they need more variety

>>2315822
>a fucking uncited blogpost on vetstreet.com proves i'm right, guys!

>>2315822
Dogs are omnivores. They can digest plant matter and absorb nutrition from it, just like humans can.

I'm not a vegan and neither is my dog and I know this is true.

>>2315835
>The University of Missouri is rong cuz I said so!!!!
>I know more than veterinarians and biologists guys

>>2315836
>>2315827
Dogs are carnivores. This is scientific and biological fact. End.

>>2315840
Omnivores are carnivores. This is scientific and biological fact. End.

>>2315840
Carnivores can't digest plant matter. Dogs can.

>>2315851
>Carnivores can't digest plant matter
of course they can. Most of them anyways.

/an/ continues to make the mistake of thinking omnivores aren't carnivores and vice-versa.

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>>2315822
i'm not going to argue conjecture on the internet with an apparent half-wit

your sources prove nothing

t. not a vegan

>also carnivora =/= carnivore
>pic related

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>>2315402
>bad comparison, cats CANT survive on a vegan diet
Lol, OK then.

>>2315932
What vegans don't tell you is that they need a steady supply of supplements to be healthy. I think most people eat to much meat but cutting it out is stupid.

>>2315851
Humans technically cannot "digest" cellulose either you imbecile.
http://www.raising-rabbits.com/carnivore-digestive-system.html
>>2315918
Lol pandas want to die. They fight their own digestive system and hate fucking.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150519-pandas-not-designed-to-eat-bamboo

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>TFW 1488 ETHICAL VEGANARYANMASTERRACE TOOBEEONNEST

>>2315932
wtf am not being vegan now

>>2315939
Where do the supplements come from? Even gelatin capsules aren't vegan, so I don't understand how they can easily supplement anything without doing a tremendous amount of work and research. What sources do they get their B12 from? Iron is fairly obvious, but the rest are not.

Also, how are most fruits and some vegetables vegan anyway since they rely on the pollination of insects, which means you're still taking advantage of another species? Granted, they're insects, but some vegans refuse honey on the same grounds even though beekeeping tends to be beneficial to bees, so I don't understand the distinction.

>>2315991
I don't know anon, I don't subscribe to that wacky religion.

This is bait, but can we talk about how there are actually retards who do this stuff.
Dogs can survive on vegan food, but at absolute best it is substandard. I'd have no issues with vegan pet food if it was actually capable of being proper nutrition, but it isn't.

Also being a vet doesn't mean they know everything about the health of an animal. It'd be like going to a cardiologist and taking their word as law about some uterine problem because "well they're a doctor". Most vets are not well educated in nutrition, or are paid off to shill certain foods.

>>2315994
Also don't fall for the trolls too much guys, I am vegetarian and buy more meat than most people do because I keep carnivorous animals and am not retarded. I'm also friends with a bunch of vegan people and every single one of them feeds their animals proper food.

There -are- retards like OP, but it isn't the norm.

>>2315918
>>2315851
>>2315849
No arguments, only feelings.

Sad!

Don't mind me, just posting more facts to get in the way of your retard vegan circlejerk:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320703001526

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2907.2009.00148.x/full

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1017/S136794300200104X/full

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/7/1927S.short

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-4716-4_14

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2307/1936363/full

http://www.eje-online.org/content/131/2/191.short

>b-b-b-but muh feelings override reality!!!!! EVERYTHING IS AN OMNIVORE BECAUSE I SAID SO

Deer are omnivores to you retards because they eat dormice. I wish the biology plebs would clear off of /an/ and go back to /ck/ or wherever shithole they crawled from.

>>2312430
That analogy doesn't make sense.

OP is a person, a dog is not and therefore cannot own or be responsible for a person.

With that logic you could say that if the roles were reversed, your car would only allow you to eat motor oil and drink gasoline.

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>>2315997
>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320703001526
study on feral dog's impact on native carnivores in zimbabwe. considers dogs carnivores while at the same time considers them unsuccessful predators and thriving on an undisclosed "alternative food source"

not a study on the diet of domestic dogs

>onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2907.2009.00148.x/full
another feral dog study claiming majority subsistence from "human derived sources"

not a study on the diet of domestic dogs

>http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1017/S136794300200104X/full
exact same as the first study just a different publisher

>http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/7/1927S.short
dogs have "relatively unspecialized dentition, and a taste system that is rather insensitive to salt" then a bunch of shit about cats being specialized carnivores

>https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-4716-4_14
literally not about canids at all. what is the point of even including this one?

>http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2307/1936363/full
study about dingos

http://www.eje-online.org/content/131/2/191.short
study on dog's circadian rhythm that calls dogs "a carnivore species" in the title

not a study on the diet of domestic dogs

WOW ANON. YOU SURE KNOW HOW TO DRIVE A POINT TOME

>>2316013
>All of these sources consider dogs carnivores
>Every scientist published considers dogs a carnivore

>Your response is to disregard this and continue shitposting because your feelings tell you to

>Dingos aren't canis domesticus because it hurts my feelings

L
O
L

vegans

>>2316013
>dogs have "relatively unspecialized dentition, and a taste system that is rather insensitive to salt" then a bunch of shit about cats being specialized carnivores
the dog, a facultative carnivore, but a carnivore nonetheless

>a dingo is a domestic dog
>a wolf is a domestic dog
>googling some research abstracts makes me an expert in the field

now i know you're retarded

have fun continuing to justify spending $600 a month on your vastly superior raw food diet for your vastly superior dingo wolfdogs you idiot furfaggot

find some studies done on the actual diet of actual domestic dogs:

http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v117/n5/abs/hdy201648a.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268743597_Dietary_nutrient_profiles_of_wild_wolves_Insights_for_optimal_dog_nutrition

https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/jas/abstracts/94/supplement5/210a

>>2315994
What probably happened, if not bait, is that a vet or tech said something like, "You could BUT...," then op's brain shut off.

Litterally look at a dogs digestive system and you'll know they need meat in their diet (and before anyone says it, their molars are for crushing bone not to graze like a damn cow).
They have evolved to be able to digest some plant matter , but mostly only shit that's been cooked, because raw veg is gonna make the damn thing sick.
In theory you'd be able to feed any animal anything as long as their nutritional needs are met. But their digestive system can't process this shit properly because it ain't designed for it, and you'll end up with a sick and malnurished pup.
You're anti animal cruelty? Torturing your dog for the rest of it's life when is loves and trusts you like family is the lowest you can go.
Rehome it and get a rabbit. You can cuddle it and not make it miserable till it dies.

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An interesting thing to look at before subscribing a dog to any higher carbohydrate diet (which a vegan diet is perhaps the highest you can offer, being entirely plant-based) is the AMY2B gene. The gene that allows the dog to actively digest things other than animal proteins and fats. Very primitive dogs and wolves will only have two or three copies of the gene (think Akitas, Siberian huskies, Malamutes.)

A dog from a breed with a higher number of replications of the AMY2B gene (10+) would hypothetically not suffer as much on a vegan diet, whereas a dog with a lower number of replications of the AMY2B gene (2 - 6) is essentially an obligate carnivore that might eat some grass from time to time to make itself sick.

>http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/3/11/160449

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/age.12179/pdf

Dogs have the short digestive tract typical of carnivores, and do not produce the digestive enzyme amylase in their mouths. True omnivores and herbivores have longer digestive tracts, and begin to break down plant matter with their saliva before it ever reaches their gut, thanks to amylase.

You can feed a dog vegan pet food, but it will put immense strain on their body. They will not thrive, and in the long run they will probably get sick.

http://www.whyanimalsdothething.com/posts/carnivores-and-vegan-pet-food

It is essentially animal cruelty to keep a pet and feed it a completely inappropriate diet based on your belief system rather than its needs. If you or someone you know is considering feeding their dog vegan pet food, they should first have the dog's number of AMY2B replications tested. Even if the number comes back 10+, I would suggest rehoming the dog rather than inflicting unnecessary ill health upon it. Get a pet that is naturally a vegetarian, like a rabbit or a guinea pig, and not a carnivore that requires meat to thrive.

>>2316033
>>2316014
*ftfy

>>2316490
Is this graph telling me that basenji produce massively more amylase than other canids or am I reading it wrong?

vegan food is fine so long as they are getting enough necessary vits and minerals and nutrition

but god DAMN how boring for the dog. how flavorless. that shit is always overpriced too.

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>>2316656
The basenji has more replications of the AMY2B gene than wild canids, but not more than other dogs.

>>2312782
That was a good read.

>>2312782
>>2315435
>>2316767

so much samefag itt

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OH GOD FUCKING VEGANS ARE SPREADING AROUND 4CHAN.

DO US A FAVOUR AND FUCK OFF.
Or at least don't shove veganism down our throats and don't insult meat eaters.

>>2316858
Actually that last one wasn't me. I was the one who started on about amylase.

>>2312589
unless the pet is carnivorous, then you'll just end up killing it.

>>2312485
Dogs are opportunistic carnivores. They need meat and will prefer it over anything else, but they can also sustain themselves briefly on other things they find first if there's no meat around. A dog will eat what it can find.

Cats are obligate carnivores. They eat nothing but meat or they die.

For example's sake, a rat is an omnivore.