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Why are men judged so much more harshly in relationships and

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Why are men judged so much more harshly in relationships and dating, and by society as a whole?

More specifically, why is this fact never acknowledged by society as a whole?

Guys are required to have so many qualities to avoid being a "boring", "loser", "creep", or "not my type" whereas girls only have to be "not fat" and "not a crazy bitch" and guys who expect anything more than that are labelled "assholes who don't appreciate women"

Am I wrong here? If I'm wrong just tell me. But I don't think I'm wrong.
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>>18028071
>girls only have to be "not fat" and "not a crazy bitch" and guys who expect anything more than that are labelled "assholes who don't appreciate women"
I'm sorry, but do you live in the real world or solely on 4chan?
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>>18028075
The real world
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>>18028077
Clearly you don't but you keep living in this fantasy world.
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>>18028075
lol women only have spread their legs to get what they want.

Men have to build a buisness, make shittons of money, be successful, have a kind and wise spirit, look like a bodybuilder, never feel pain, get a nobel prize, be james bond and give millions to charity and have the greatest personality known to man. All by not caring about what people think, being imbued of unshakable confidence and have save the world from aliens a couple times. And you'd still be a loser.
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>>18028125
my dad is none of those
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>>18028125
You're delusional. The vast majority of normal, well-adjusted men aren't 'perfect' and they have no trouble with women. Don't blame women and society, accept some personal responsibility. You're not entitled to have women attracted to you.
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How to solve your problem:

1. Stop going on /r9k/
2. Step outside
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>>18028071
Because men have lower standards.
The hotter a woman is, the more horse shit a man will put up with to fuck her. Women can afford to be more picky, simply because men just aren't
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Its true that each gender phases life challenges but women BY FAR are required to meet way more standards than men in relationships.

Not only do women have to be "not fat" but they also have to know how to clean and cook and perform emotional labor for their partners. Women are also expected to give birth to children and take care of them. Women are expected to be nice or else theyre considered a bitch. They cant be crazy and they cant be selfish. Also they have to do all these things all while being beautiful or conventionally attractive. Women even get criticism for working "why arent you at home taking care of the kids?" And if they dont work then people say "you need a job. You cant just lay around at home all day with your kids!"
Also women are expected to obey men in relationships. If she doesnt listen then shes considered a bitch who is "hard to work with" or "uncompassionate."

Men dont even have to put half the effort women do into their looks. Look outside and even look on tv. Hot wife is married to fat man. Men just dont have to live up to the same beauty standards women do.
Also they arent expected to do chores or cook. Or even know how to cook. Im a college student and 60% of my male friends dont know how to cook meals outside of pasta or even how to do their own laundry. Literally the only thing men are expected to do is not be an asshole and even then the mysterious asshole stereotype is presented to women as an attractive man, to normalize it to them and excuse their behavior in relationships.

Lol dont even start crying about all the hard things men are expected to do in relationships because women are expected to do the same and more.
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>>18028132
I'm just a fucking worm, and that would be insulting worms. I'm just the worst putrid molten excrement ever created. I'm worthless, my existence is blasphemy and an insult to any living thing that struggles to get something out life. Women know that.
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>>18028132

This. ^^^
If you dont get what this means then you need to grow up.
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>>18028125
Lol men only have to exist to get what they want

Women have to be young, hairless, not fat, not too thin, with some t&a, have a good face, dress sexy so they are not a prude but not to much so they are not a slut, they must have high libido but not outside of relationships, they must have a job because otherwise they are leeches but not too much job because otherwise they are career bitches, they must look great and wear make up but not too much or they are high maintenance, they must dress well but not spend hours deciding what to wear, they must have friends but not deprioritize their relationships and not be too much with him because that kills his freedom etc etc
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>>18028144
And you blame women for not being attracted to you? It's still somehow women's fault that they're not attracted to you?
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>>18028147
Just call a guy you like and ask him out stupid.
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>this delusion
Not sure if serious or bait.
>>
Basically media panders to woman.

"Hot" at any size
Sex in city style programs

Personally I've given up on woman for anything other than causal sex.
I spent years being a loyal and nice kind of guy and got rejected and cheated on for my troubles.
As far as I'm concerned if woman won't be honest why the hell should I commit to any of them.

Lookup MIGTOW on youtube or game if your a guy.
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>>18028071
Because they aren't judged more harshly.

Normal, well adjusted people get in relationships all the time. It's just you.
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>>18028164
Your full of shit.
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>>18028166
I am not.

There are plenty of people in happy, long term relationships. Most people managed to fuck before they turn 25.
If you cannot find a woman who's down to fuck you or have a relationship with you, it's probably because you're undesirable, not because all women are bitches.
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>>18028071

The idea of the disposable male is a long standing tradition in the history of the world. The fact of the matter is that our species can survive with very few males but it could not survive with few women. Women, biologically, are more valuable. Thats the first thing you have to accept. Society values women more because it has to. Your nice guy routine, averaged sized penis and unpredictable ego is just not a valuable commodity in the context of humanity. Sorry.

We all have our burdens to carry as human beings and specifically as males but this 4chan mindset always confuses me because, inherently, you all accept the fact that humans must compete for food, shelter, and social acceptance. We must all compete for jobs and desirable possessions and position in our respective communities and disciplines and accept the idea that life is inherently unfair and susceptible to random chance but for SOME reason as soon as we start to talk about love and gender roles you guys get all fucking bent out of shape about things not being "fair" enough for you.

What about this life and living as a human being on this planet has lead you to believe that ANY part of our existence is supposed to be fair? What about anything you've experienced so far in life has given you the idea that human beings are inherently entitled to anything but disease and death?

You can either accept the burden you've been given as an adult male and do your best to be a reasonable, empathetic and logical person or you can use all of your failures as fuel to hate and spend your life refusing to play the game because the rules aren't fair enough for you.

Boo fucking hoo kid. Men are women are both expected to do an insane amount of stupid, pointless shit for each other because thats what it means to be a human.

Our system isn't perfect. No one cares about how hard you have it because we all suffer one way or another. You aren't special or unique. We aren't perfect. It isn't fair. Deal with it.
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>>18028172
Women are in relationship to get impregnated so they can divorce and live off their ex and fuck everybody they want and wine because Brad Pitt is not into them while her inbox is filled with messages from men who want them.
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>>18028071
>whereas girls only have to be "not fat" and "not a crazy bitch" and guys who expect anything more than that are labelled "assholes who don't appreciate women"

UUhhhhhh....

You realize there are NUMEROUS multi-billion dollar industries revolving around telling women they MUST to be a VERY particular ways to be considered worthwhile right?

Make up, modeling, fashion, cosmetic surgery, skin care products, dieting products, etc.

Those are not made up industries.

When I walk in, sit down, and my hair cut costs $35 and takes an hour to do because I'm getting it straitened. But the lady sitting next to me gets charged $60+ for a quick trim that she scheduled three weeks ago... I know there's something funky going on with the way this shits skewed (And no, this ain't hyperbolic. This is an actual, real world example. I've got longer hair for a guy, and I've seen a girl with short get basically exactly the same shit get done to her hair as what I did with mine, and be charged almost $200 more than me)

Let your opinions be shaped by what's going on in the greater world around you, not just by what's going on in one highly biased echo chamber on the internet or even your own limited viewpoint.

Women have got their own pocket of shit to deal with that people tend to just gloss over.
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>>18028178
IT'S BECAUSE WOMEN ARE INSECURE AS FUCK. THEY TELL THEMSELVES THAT THEY HAVE TO DO THAT THEY DON'T!!! IT'S NOT MY FAULT IF WOMEN HAVE WEAK MINDS SHIT! NO GUYS CARES AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A FUCKABLE HOLE YOU STUPID SHIT!!!
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You know, I'm not going to waste my time arguing about this. How wrong you are doesn't affect my life, just yours
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>>18028181
... I love how you're calling women insecure when you're here telling us that if you aren't a multi-milionarie ripped handsome secret agent with a heart of gold you cannot hook up with a slut from a bar.
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>>18028178
you do it because you compare yourself to other women
besides
plenty of women dont do your fake routine, yet they are appreciated highly just for having a cute face and a vagina
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>>18028181

>>>/r9k/

Back to your containment board, shitbird.
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>>18028195
>plenty of women dont do your fake routine, yet they are appreciated highly just for having a cute face and a vagina
Pretty much no women who doesn't take care of herself (diet, exercise, skincare, make up, haircare, hygiene) is appreciated.
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>>18028195
That's a guy. Nice reading comprehension.
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>>18028163
Funnily enough I've given up on men too. Literally nothing is ever good enough, I've dated across the entire spectrum of attractiveness, Chads , robots, never once did I cheat on them, and it still never worked out. I have my own job and I do some modeling on the side, I weigh under 110 and still there was always something wrong, too fat for one, the other wanted more tits, the third one said I was too reliant on him. Ive dated stupid guys and I've dated really smart ones which were the worst, constantly trying to "logic" me out of shit and throwing tantrums when I pointed out their arguments weren't valid. Most of you are unable to speak up for what you want and the emotions you have and expect women to do the legwork and take care of your precious feelings while you start wandering outside of the relationship to see if they aren't met elsewhere. I've been cheated on, I've been ignored, I've been told that I'm crazy when I caught them lying.
I don't need to step up my game, if I want a boyfriend, I can have a boyfriend, I just need to swipe right. But every single one of you so far have been dishonest, self-important bastards, beating yourself on the chest with achievements you could only reach because at home someone was holding your hand and listening to tales of mean bosses, ironing and cooking after our jobs so you could "relax from all your hard work". And looking great when there was an office party because in the end a hot girlfriend is just another status symbol you lot use to measure each other's penis length.

I'm going to get some donor sperm in a few years and that's it. The human race doesn't need that many men.
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I jut try to get by and women laugh at me, insult me. They laugh at me when I suffer. They take pleasure in seeing me squirm when they choose another guy over me. They know I'm worthless and use that against me. THey make bets on when I'm gonna kill myself, they livestream my meltdowns and make cash off of it. If I protest I'll be jailed.

They love to push men to suicide.
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>>18028181
>REEEEEEEEEEEE

Even assuming you are 100% right and no guy gives a shit, even it's only women that are drumming this shit up.
That doesn't magically mean that this shit doesn't exist.

Regardless of if it's the United States or China making up all that smog, those holes in the ozone layer are just as present.

Reality is reality. Shifting the fault or changing the blame doesn't erase that.


P.S. Reading comprehension lacking.... Clearly ya'll missed the part where I mentioned I'm a guy
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>>18028212
Women are attractive when they are weaak
Men are pussies when they are weak
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If you're talking about no-standards sex, then yes, women will have an easier time getting some than a man.

In all other cases, women have it tougher. When you see men painting on the makeup, buying lingerie, and having their eyebrows waxed and feet pampered, then come whining.
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I think it's just because at some point in people's lives they forget how much fun it can be to just be with somebody, and instead get locked into this mindset of having to validate their own self-worth through the people they associate, and the things that they own.


I also think it's easy to lose finer details in splashes of desperation. It's only about fucking a hole when you don't have a hole to fuck. It's not as though that's the only criteria by which we would judge our partners, only our current situation.


Well adjusted men do have standards as well.

I consider myself fairly neutral, learn to love anybody, but even I have a set of standards by which I would hold other potential partners. Even if it doesn't always seem so upon first inspection, or moments of weakness.
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>>18028219

>Women are attractive when they are weak

I don't know a single man who thinks weak women are attractive.
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Honestly my family was right, I was an accident and I never should have been born. Women are good a reminding me that.
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>>18028226
>my bf dumped me boohoo
>3241345 horny messages

I don,t know what you're talking about
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>>18028231

Being sad about a relationship ending makes you weak? I'm confused.

Ohhhhh I see. You don't actually think that, you're just super bitter that women get more attention than you. You're like a baby. I understand now.
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>>18028226
It has to do with the whole "women are fragile and need to be protected" appeal. It makes men feel manly. Of course, a woman can't be too weak otherwise she's an inconvenience, but she can't be too competent otherwise the man in question gets scared.
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>>18028219
>Women are attractive when they are weaak

1.) Subjective.
2.) Clearly you haven't had to deal with many women when they're "weak"... because my best friend is female and she's recently lost her job, I've got a girl I think of like a little sister (and her life is kind of a train wreck right now), and my girlfriend's been having problems with her birth control recently...

And dear fucking god... When they've all sync up with shit like that it's like I've got three fucking girlfriend's and kind of want to bash my head against a wall from having tip toe over so many eggshells lest everyone fucking falling apart on me for no fucking reason.

I swear, the other day my girlfriend started just sobbing for a solid 5 minutes because she saw a .gif of a fat puppy stuck spinning in a bowl (Pic exactly related)... and like the next day, even she was like "What the fuck. That was fucking ridiculous".

Nah dude... I think you're speaking from some weird fantasy here rather than actual reality.
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>>18028222
Hate make-up, hate lingerie, and the latter are just hygiene/aesthetics that men should do as well.

The feet pampering thing... You know how weird it is for a man to walk into an aesthetics salon? Super weird.

The only main points would probably be periods, and pregnancy. Both of which have readily available solutions in first world countries to mitigate these problems.

Nobody forces you to wear high heels, skin-tight dresses, wear lingerie, or make-up.

You do it because you're brainwashed by the media to believe that these things make you attractive. You do it because you want to feel good about yourself, because you don't normally. Just like everybody else.
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>>18028222
>>18028241
Oh, and bras. Bras would definitely be classified as a pain in the ass. Super fucking expensive.
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>>18028071
It's not a matter of your personal wrong or right. Fact of the matter is, as much as you view society as a whole, it is an insurmountable of people living different lives and chapters in a story.
In that matter, too many people conform and prey on their own happiness by busying themselves with seeking approval from others.
Does their approval matter? At the very least you are weighing it heavier than your own.


I guarantee you that you will get more respect and even pussy for having your own color rather than infinitely comparing yourself to the qualms of everybody else's expectations
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>>18028233
I probably have NPD. My mother was depressed and didn't take care of me, my grand-mother was authoritarian and insane and my sister beat me and used her skills in language to verbally abuse me as much as she could. My father and grand-father were weak sauce that stood by and never did anything.

People always made fun of me and laughed at everything I do. They always complimented me because they know I don't understand sarcasm so I could humiliate myself even more. They like to see me suffer. It's a sport. I have no power over the situation and they know it. They just don't want to be responsible for my death so they pretend to be nice so they can keep me around for laughs.
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>>18028241
There is no way to avoid periods totally. You can control them, but not avoid them. Unless you rip off your ovaries.
And they're not available for everyone, since a lot of women can't use hormonal birth control.

Nobody really forces you to war high heels, cute dresses, lingerie or make up but a woman without make up is considered unattractive or a slob, same for clothes. Lingerie is kind of a need, I have boobs, can't leave them hanging all day.
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>>18028241
Yeah, you probably don't hate make up. You likely just hate obvious make up.

I'm female and i don't wear make up almost ever, and i promise you it puts me at a huge disadvantage. I rarely get men's attention.
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>>18028143
This is insightful.

However, I disagree.

>Its true that each gender phases life challenges but women BY FAR are required to meet way more standards than men in relationships.

>Not only do women have to be "not fat" but they also have to know how to clean and cook and perform emotional labor for their partners.

Emotional labor? That aside, I'm not surprised that college kids don't know how to clean or cook. Their parents had been doing it for them their entire lives, and this is probably the first time they've been away from them. It stands to reason that they'd be fairly terrible. As per expectations, I would classify cooking and cleaning under independence as a trait, and I would hope that both male and females would understand the concept of independence. That said, with how young a lot of couples are, it's difficult for a lot of folks your age to develop independence because they've been stuck in school their entire lives, and had most things handed to them. The few outliers are going to be those with good parents, or those who have lived a tough life.


>Women are also expected to give birth to children and take care of them.
Well, yes. Women are the only ones that can give birth. That said, I feel that this is sort of a moot point. Having children is no longer a necessity. Regardless of gender, the choice of children or no children will affect your relationship. To this I have to say: If you want children, have children. If you do not, do not. That way, you've got nothing to complain about. So, are you expected to have children? Only if you want to. It is unreasonable for anybody to expect something of you that you do not want, regardless of gender. Thus, this is not a problem of gender responsibility so much as personal responsibility. There are plenty of men that do not want children.
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>>18028143

>Women are expected to be nice or else theyre considered a bitch.
Conversely, men are considered dicks or assholes, and more openly ostracized.
If you're unpleasant, you're unpleasant. Again, not a gender problem.


>They cant be crazy and they cant be selfish. Also they have to do all these things all while being beautiful or conventionally attractive.
So men can be crazy and selfish and it's acceptable? These are traits with a negative conotation regardless of gender yet again.

I've already covered, "Conventional" tasks women undergo in another post, and eluded to the fact that it's less about society and more about self-esteem. If we're talking about things such as remaining well-kept, and being hygienic, then yes. It is socially encouraged to not live like a pig. This drives straight back to independence, which once more, is not a gender problem.
>Women even get criticism for working "why arent you at home taking care of the kids?" And if they dont work then people say "you need a job. You cant just lay around at home all day with your kids!"

The inverse is also expected of men by elder society ideals. This is just people being too nosy, not really a gender issue.
>Also women are expected to obey men in relationships. If she doesnt listen then shes considered a bitch who is "hard to work with" or "uncompassionate."

I think this is the other half to the societal expectation that males need to be dominant, strong, and lead the relationship. It's an old-world ideal.
There is an inverse for men, as well. It dictates that in order to be attractive men must know what their women want, lead the relationship, and support their entire family. One half of a whole picture. Today, it works both ways. Typically both sides of a failing relationship will believe that they are in the right. We justify our own actions.
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>>18028143


>Men dont even have to put half the effort women do into their looks. Look outside and even look on tv. Hot wife is married to fat man. Men just dont have to live up to the same beauty standards women do.

I'd like to ask for examples. Not out of doubt or anything, just curiosity. A lot of sitcoms play off this premise, but if you actually watch the shows, you'll find out that it isn't necessarily their looks that make the couple ideal for one another, but their downfalls and how they come to accept one another. The man will be fat, and have high standards, but have a good heart. The woman will be secretly really judgmental, or weird habits, but loves him. It's played on for comedy. I'm sure examples can be provided for any case, though. I've seen all sorts of couples portrayed in media.

>Also they arent expected to do chores or cook. Or even know how to cook. Im a college student and 60% of my male friends dont know how to cook meals outside of pasta or even how to do their own laundry.

Ties back to earlier statement. Society frowns on being a slob in general. Man or woman.
>Literally the only thing men are expected to do is not be an asshole and even then the mysterious asshole stereotype is presented to women as an attractive man, to normalize it to them and excuse their behavior in relationships.

I disagree. on the first point. Mysterious asshole might have some merit, but I'm pretty sure that's just a trope.


>Lol dont even start crying about all the hard things men are expected to do in relationships because women are expected to do the same and more.

Men say the same thing.

In the end, we're human. We're individuals.
We have power. We live in a very free time.
>>
Not being accusatory, just a thought:

Maybe it's because high standards lead to better children, which drives the evolution of a better species. Basically, if women were less choosey, men wouldn't be the great creatures they are today. I can't say if they'd be a lot dumber, but they'd be a lot weaker, maybe more like women. And if you've ever done a job only men can really do, then you know why that might be an issue.
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>>18028258
No, I really do dislike it.

In formal environments, perhaps. For shows, perhaps.

Conceptually, I dislike make-up. I can't see the persons natural face, it can exude a sense of a lack of self-esteem.

I feel like a lot of people try to hide themselves behind make-up like they're ashamed. As a result, I feel this creates a barrier when getting to know somebody. They've got their shield up, and they are okay, but when it gets taken away, they don't know how to handle it.

When I want to get to know somebody, I want to know that person. Maybe that's just me. Make-up just gets in the way. It doesn't add anything, and I feel it can even be an obstacle in some cases.
>>
Not only do men have it easier, they're such entitled little shits they play the victim and whine endlessly when they have LITERALLY NOTHING to complain about. See this thread for example
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>>18028292
Constructive criticism is always appreciated.

Not only do men have it easier, they're such entitled little shits they play the victim and whine endlessly when they have LITERALLY NOTHING to complain about.

Playing victim can be seen from both sides. It's fairly subjective.

Males do not know what it is like to be female, and females do not know what it is like to be male.

We might like to think we know, but it's not just about one moment in time, but the paths of our lives.

Tell me what your life has been like as a woman, and I will tell you what my life has been like as a man.
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>>18028286
Man, I bet that, most of the time, you can't even tell whether a girl has a natural looking make-up or not.

I don't wear make-up at all, for example, and people still assume otherwise because it's just so common in our society.

Anyway, I get why you dislike it and I believe that the thing about low confidence is true. However the fact remains that this is pushed on women, it's not something they'd voluntarily do if they weren't bombarded by the need to conform all the time.
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>>18028297

This has to be the most civil response I've ever seen on 4chan. Not even the slightest bit mad.

Good job anon, good job.
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>>18028297

>Playing victim can be seen from both sides

No it can't because women's criticisms of men are justified and things like "geeze I wish men would stop killing me and demeansing that I not be fat while they do so despite being fat themselves" while r9ks criticisms always come down to "WAHHHH the skinny 7/10 I like doesn't want to fuck me because I'm a fat 3/10 WOMEN ARE SUCH BITCHES WAAAAAAH"

>females do not know what it is like to be male.

I and every other woman have a pretty good idea of what it is to be male because we do everything you do and more. I have to have a job and make money. I have to go to the gym and work out. I've had to flirt with and ask out guys and been rejected. You, on the other hand have never spent the past 12 years shaving not only your face but you legs and arms and pussy every fucking day. You have never spent 100 dollars that are laterally deforming your feet slowly. You've never been told you should be painfully killed because you're not a virgin. Hell, even when you are actually robed or killed or even raped, it's by someone of your own gender, not of mine.

So yeah fuck you and fuck your shit gender
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>>18028174
Wow, a reasonable and we'll thought out logical response... on /b/. I didn't know this could happen. You win the intranets today!
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>>18028312

>I and every other woman have a pretty good idea of what it is to be male because we do everything you do and more. I have to have a job and make money. I have to go to the gym and work out. I've had to flirt with and ask out guys and been rejected.

Yes, we're all required to hold jobs, and stay in shape. There is no arguing that.

There are differences in what is expected in terms of physique which could be addressed.

In terms of flirting and rejection, this is the game.


>You, on the other hand have never spent the past 12 years shaving not only your face but you legs and arms and pussy every fucking day.

That I have not. It's not as though it hasn't affected my presentability. I do keep all unruly areas of my body fairly well kept. Legs and arms I can see, though I used to shave daily through highschool, as I am quite the hairy man.

>You have never spent 100 dollars that are laterally deforming your feet slowly.
To be fair, I think the concept of high heels are retarded. I don't even like flats.

>You've never been told you should be painfully killed because you're not a virgin.
You're correct. I've been told that I should be killed painfully because I am a virgin.
Many, many times. By people I cared about.

>Hell, even when you are actually robed or killed or even raped, it's by someone of your own gender, not of mine.
My friend was robbed at knife point by 3 girls, and I've personally run into my fair share of rough women. So, I can't really say.
No, I haven't been raped, because frankly speaking, I'm detestable according to most women.

Rape is a pretty big issue though, and that's really unfortunate. Many good friends of mine have been affected by this, even my current SO.
I have known some men to have suffered through this too, but it is much less common.
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>>18028071
Not men, you mean white men
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>>18028147
You make it sound as if half of that stuff wasn't even normal but some unreachable ideal
>>
>>18028334

>There are differences in what is expected in terms of physique which could be addressed.

Oh yes, you're right- the demands placed on women are far harder than those of men. Society demands that women be anorexically skinny and lightly toned, despite that not being healthy and extremely hard for women- who naturally gather and maintain more weight. Meanwhile men are at most asked to be muscular, and in most cases not even that despite how easy it is.

Ask any ftm how easy and enjoyable working out, losing weight and gaining muscle was once they got on testosterone.

>I think the concept of high heels are retarded.

Too bad society doesn't care and wearing anything but them is grounds for termination because of "unprofessionalism" :^)

>I've been told that I should be killed painfully because I am a virgin.
Many, many times. By people I cared about.

Complete and utter bullshit. Besides, even if it's true you can easily lose it through many means and face no consiquences. I however have no escape. If I was a virgin I'd be a bitch prude whose bad because I didn't lose it to the guy currently belittling me. I'm not a virgin and I'm still bad because I'm a slut and I didn't lose it to the guy currently belittling me.

>My friend was robbed at knife point by 3 girls, and I've personally run into my fair share of rough women

Your anecdote doesn't change the fact that men commit 90-95% of crime.
>>
I lived 18 years as a reasonably attractive girl and now 8 as a reasonable attractive guy. Here's my personal experience with this.

Being a woman means that nobody takes you seriously and people constantly interrupt you and shove you out of the way, guys are constantly propositioning and catcalling you and losing their shit when you try to politely let them down. I had random guys on the street saying lewd shit about me from when I was 13 years old onwards. I only noticed the people taking you seriously thing when I transitioned though. All of a sudden my opinion mattered a lot more.

Guys have a lot more gender conforming to do and the punishment is harsher. The number of things that can get you in trouble because they are "too feminine" is ridiculous. Everyone is afraid of you around their children, women are afraid of you and always think you're trying to flirt with them. Men get drafted, which is shitty (I begged off for being a tran though). Nobody takes men seriously about abuse. I fled a relationship where I was getting -pretty badly beaten a few years ago and I had nowhere to go and no social services and nobody cared.
>>
>>18028143
>Im a college student and 60% of my male friends dont know how to cook meals outside of pasta or even how to do their own laundry.
The exact same fucking thing could be said for women, what are you on about. Fuck sometimes they practically brag about their incompetence.

>Women are expected to be nice or else theyre considered a bitch. They cant be crazy and they cant be selfish.
Men with these traits are typically called dicks.

I mean fuck 90% of what you listed should just be the bare minimum. Don't be a cunt. Have a baseline level of competence. Know how to take care of yourself. I mean honestly it's on you if you don't expect that from a man.
>>
>>18028346
>Besides, even if it's true you can easily lose it through many means and face no consiquences.
Pretty sure most people would give a guy even more shit if he lost his virginity through a prostitute. I'm not going to defend men who give you shit over losing your virginity, but doubling down and insisting he just screw some random slag is hardly the solution.
>>
>>18028358

Most wouldn't care, and again, since we're comparing men and women what do you think a woman who lost her virginity to a male prostitute would face? People would lose their fucking minds.

Besides dude days he has a gf.
>>
>>18028346

>Oh yes, you're right- the demands placed on women are far harder than those of men. Society demands that women be anorexically skinny and lightly toned, despite that not being healthy and extremely hard for women- who naturally gather and maintain more weight. Meanwhile men are at most asked to be muscular, and in most cases not even that despite how easy it is.


I think this is getting a bit beyond societies expectations. These are olden day expectations. The majority of men do not want an anorexic women. In fact, as of late, it's being going the opposite direction.

Also, naturally gain and maintain more weight? Which sort of disease are we talking about? People are judgmental, that's a global problem not a woman problem.
>Ask any ftm how easy and enjoyable working out, losing weight and gaining muscle was once they got on testosterone.

Where is this coming from? I'd love to ask them how they find going to the gym everyday for 2 hours pushing themselves as hard as they can through sore muscles and off days easier than walking, eating right, and doing body-weight exercises. Most girls I know complain when they have to walk for a prolonged period of time, let alone push as hard as they can when it hurts to move even slightly.

>Too bad society doesn't care and wearing anything but them is grounds for termination because of "unprofessionalism" :^)

Well, rather than simply complain about it, why don't we do something about it? I was unaware that this was an issue, but I could see it being a potential issue. It would be rather unfair to force somebody to wear an uncomfortable article merely for aesthetic reasons. Still, this would probably be quite easy to fight. Make a simple comment about discrimination, and they'd probably drop the issue in a heartbeat.
>>
Maybe related to the body image and maintence stuff-

I was on track to be a pro ballet dancer for years, and lived that life for a little while in my 20's before getting injured. The calisthenics I had to do, not even the dance itself, was horrendously painful. It was always so hard to push myself through it.

A couple years ago my bodybuilder brother in law got me into lifting and I was (and am) fucking amazed at how easy it is in comparison. Now, I'm not saying I've never had to push hard. I'm not saying I've never woken up sore as fuck the next day. But, I'm not even a man and I think lifting is far easier than the unproductive cardio and specific calisthenics women are pushed to do, dancers or no.
>>
>>18028349

If I may address a few things

>The number of things that can get you in trouble because they are "too feminine" is ridiculous.

With other men. Basically men should stop being shitty to each other as well as to women

>Everyone is afraid of you around their children, women are afraid of you and always think you're trying to flirt with them.

With good reason

>Men get drafted

Which multiple women and womens groups have tried to fight against. They have been opposed by men. Besides if you live in the US the draft hasn't come up since Vietnam.

>Nobody takes men seriously about abuse.

No one but other women take women seriously about abused. Women had to set up and fund our own shelters and fight our own legal and social values, if men want shelters and support they can do what we did and make their own.
>>
>>18028219
why do people who have never gotten close to sex seem to think they know all about it and how the intricate dynamics work lol
>>
>>18028166
>OP asks if he's wrong
>Gets told he's wrong
>"Your full of shit."
it's a troll guys
>>
>>18028346
>Complete and utter bullshit. Besides, even if it's true you can easily lose it through many means and face no consiquences. I however have no escape. If I was a virgin I'd be a bitch prude whose bad because I didn't lose it to the guy currently belittling me. I'm not a virgin and I'm still bad because I'm a slut and I didn't lose it to the guy currently belittling me.

Excuse me? Do you honestly feel you can judge my life when you know so little about me? When you have no face for which to attach these words? That's awfully presumptuous.

I have indeed been told this. Even by somebody whom I had told them I loved. They wanted somebody that knew what they were doing, not some pet they'd have to teach. Men are supposed to lead.

I get what you are saying, though. It's a bit more difficult for a woman to shake the connotation of being regarded as a whore. It is stupid, and I think it's roots are more in jealousy than anything.


>Your anecdote doesn't change the fact that men commit 90-95% of crime.

Then hit me up with some sources.

Who commits crime?
Who is this crime commited against?
What are global population figures?
Where are these crimes commited?
What are these crimes?
What were the common beliefs of those in jurisdiction of these places at the times of which these crimes were recorded?

I'm not going to look at one number and draw a conclusion from it, especially if that number isn't even well sourced or derived from any meaningful unbiased observation.

I see both men and women steal. I see both men and women commit assault. I see both men and women commit vandalism. Me, living my life. Not looking at an online statistic.

Hell, do we even stop to consider that men are encouraged to commit crimes?
Where does it end?
>>
Related to this thread, I strongly suggest some people check out Self-Made Man: One Woman's Year Disguised as a Man. tldr woman pretended to be a man for a year, and pointed out some of the double standards both sexes have towards each other and themselves.

>>18028363
>Most wouldn't care
You're joking, right? Screwing a hooker is about the biggest red flag if not deal breaker women have regarding sex. Yes, people would not be thrilled about a woman losing her virginity with a gigolo but that's not what I'm arguing. Your core reasoning was virgin shaming is ok because it's "easy to lose it". That's bullshit and deep down I'm pretty sure you know it.

>Besides dude days he has a gf.
So maybe he's had sex at this point. Doesn't invalidate what had previously happened. If you met a guy that respects you, does that mean you're going to magically forget those pricks in the past? Probably not.

>>18028372
>With other men.
No, other women will also give a man shit for being too feminine. Let's stop pretending women are this magically benevolent sex, because that's half the reasoning why they had so few rights to begin with.

>if men want shelters and support they can do what we did and make their own.
You do know that various feminist groups have actively opposed them, on the reasoning that it would mean that much less funding for womens shelters right? I mean fuck Erin Pizzey is a pretty great gal, set up the first refuge shelter. But she was routinely attacked for pointing out abuse is reciprocal for instance.
>>
>>18028312
>I and every other woman have a pretty good idea of what it is to be male because we do everything you do and more.
I wanted to disagree with the part where you say you do everything we do and more, but couldn't find an argument against it. Guess you're right on that, I never thought about it that way. Still I think you don't know what it's like to be a man. You can only imagine, just how I can only imagine how it's like to be a woman. I guess I'd be judged more as a woman, but it would be less lonely. Got a phonecall by a friend once and he said "I feel so terrible lonely, like I have noone in this world who wants to be with me. Everyone wants to be around me when I'm confident and charming, make people laugh and feel good. But as soon as I feel down and can't make people feel good they just leave me only to come back when I can be the confident and funny guy again". I think that's a facet of being a man that women can't see.
>>
>>18028384

Did you seriously just suggest women don't know what it's like to be approved of when they're pleasing the crowd but abandoned when a real problem comes up?

Holy shit.

I know 4chan makes it look like the world is composed of couples of crazy girls with accommodating boyfriends, but that is NOT representative.
>>
>>18028366
https://www.reddit.com/r/ftm/comments/2js359/muscle_growth_on_t_whats_your_experience/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list

Notice how some of them didn't even do anything and they gained muscle. It is harder for a woman to be skinny than it is for a man to be completely ripped. You live life on easy mode.

Also a slight increase in the number of men into huge asses(buy only asses, better not have a stomach or arm flab or thighs with cellulite to go with it) does not a social change make. You still demand ridiculously skinny girls despite being fatasses yourselves.
>>
>>18028390
>It is harder for a woman to be skinny than it is for a man to be completely ripped.
I don't think you understand what it means to be completely ripped. Yes, they're gaining muscle naturally due to testosterone. The average woman has has about 40% less upper body strength than the average man, yet the average man is hardly "completely ripped".

It's not that men are naturally slabs of muscle, but that women are naturally weak.
>>
>>18028205
>Ive dated stupid guys and I've dated really smart ones which were the worst, constantly trying to "logic" me out of shit and throwing tantrums when I pointed out their arguments weren't valid.

What made you point out their arguments will invalid?
Why are you continuing the human race when you clearly don't like the dating game?
>>
>>18028379
>Who commits crime?
>Who is this crime commited against?
If we're going to get really specific about it, it's mostly black men hurting black men. There is a culture of "toxic masculinity", but it's not really what these people try to paint it as. The average man has nothing to do with it.
>>
>>18028390
Well, yes. I would expect a lbm increase if a woman starts supplementing testosterone.
>>18028395

There's just a large difference between normal and muscular. Not to mention that even when you do obtain significant lbm, you have to have a low body fat percentage for it to be attractive anyways. So you have to be muscular, AND skinny.

That said, I'll read through it. There is a lot of talk of them being of test for 10 years AND doing hard labor, so that's understandable. I don't know if I'll get through it tonight, as it's like 6am already. If I don't, I'll post it in the ask the opposite gender anything forum if a similar forum like this doesn't exist. Also reading into crime statistics. Wikipedia references entire fucking books, so...

>>18028399
Yeah, based on nothing more than a quick skim, it's pretty much male on male 80% of the time, but I'll look into it a bit more I guess. Statistics are always fun.
>>
>>18028379

>Even by somebody whom I had told them I loved.

And why would they tell you this? Women don't view men as objects like men view women. You being a virgin, while disappointing to a woman, doesn't challenge her controll she thinks she should have over you, because she doesn't see herself as deserving of control over you. No one would ever say you deserve to die for being a virgin, it makes no logical sense.

>Then hit me up with some sources.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

Is a good place to start. There's also the various reports the FBI puts out, as well as numerous books
>>
>>18028346
>Oh yes, you're right- the demands placed on women are far harder than those of men. Society demands that women be anorexically skinny and lightly toned

You sound like the female equivalent of the r9k loosers. Boohoo society says this and it says that. You know that this shit is in your dumb magazines, you see it with the instagram whores and on tv, but people in RL expect you not to be anorexic or a slob and you're considered fuckable by most men.
>>
Chiming in again...

As a pretty small woman, when I was at my weakest by BMR was probably around 1300 and I wasn't really working out on top of that.
So over 1300 kcal a day and I'd gain weight.
Women are encouraged to do cardio and whatnot to "burn fat" but this doesn't lead to a really significant metabolism difference. It just means on the day she busts her ass on the elliptical, she'll be hungry as fuck and can justify a couple more "only 100 calories!" snack s.

The difference in weight loss speed between my fiance and me is insane. We started out at similar BMI's. Of course, his body composition is naturally more muscular. So he was losing weight eating around 2k a day and I was restricting as much as I could (within some reason, obciously) and busting my ass just to lose fat at maybe 1/3 the rate he was. Now that I'm more muscular than before it's a little easier, but getting here wasn't easy either.

Yeah, for him to look like fucking Dr. Manhattan would probably be more work than it was for me to go from 40% to 20% body fat. But the pressure is much higher for me to look thin and toned than for him to look like Dr. Manhattan. Also, let's not pretend most fitbros and bodybuilders don't buy into a ton of pseudoscience that massively complicates things.

Now that we both lift and are very fit, I realize my maintenance schedule is much more important than his. And while I'm very proud of my measurable progress, it took me much longer to get as strong as I wanted to be, than for him to get where he was satisfied.

His fucking body builder brother tends to go up to around 25% body fat when he's not doing a lot of competitions, yet can cut back down to 6% super fucking quickly. Yeah, he earned that muscle, but it was easier for him to earn and it's easier for him to keep.

I have a lot of sympathy for mens issues like abuse care access, rape support, etc. I also care about how masculinity hurts men. But shut up about the physical shit
>>
>>18028372
Spoiler: I agree with you. I was raised as a girl and I'm not a complete fool. Men are the people I am afraid of assaulting me for femininity (although women will verbally harass and incite physical violence), women should be concerned about men around children and themselves, I agree about the draft, and yes, womens' abuse/rape/DV services are and were lacking also and men do not care.

I will say, though, that (in this day and age) it is more likely for abuse and rape of men to be viewed as literally impossible or funny. Obviously rape and abuse of women can be treated in the same way (example: marital rape) but I think people will at least give lip service to a wider range of abuses being real and Serious Business for women.
>>
>>18028349
Best post ITT
>>
>>18028405
>No one would ever say you deserve to die for being a virgin, it makes no logical sense.
Calling someone a slut because they won't sleep with them doesn't make sense either. Apparently it's pretty common though.

>>18028411
>women should be concerned about men around children
Cute.
>>
>>18028403
I guess there's also the question of how close 50mg of a specific formulation of testosterone pushes the average female towards or past the average male. Higher test between males is enough to encourage much different body composition as well.

>>18028405
Yeah, I'm starting there. It does say that 80% of crimes are commit against males though. On top of this, I would argue that men are taught to deal with problems in a more physical manner, and be reckless. That said, the statistics on things like fraud and non-physical crimes are a bit surprising. I'll have to get back to you on that.

As per:

>And why would they tell you this?

You don't know her, and I think that's an unfair assessment to make based on little more than gender alone. It's about the equivalent of saying that the asshole gene is specific to males only.

If we're talking about logic, then why do people do any of the things they do?

Do you think it's logical to tell somebody to go die because they aren't a virgin?

Of course not. So you can't use that as a counter argument to my statement.

It's stupid, but it's a thing regardless.

Women tend to want, "Mature" men, and "Mature" men know what they're doing. That just leads back to the expectations of males. We're basically considered children until we lose our virginity. Look at the catalog any day of the week, and you'll see somebody talking about how they're taking flak over it.
>>
Men are 2 or 3 times more likely to kill themselves.

Wow it's so hard being a girl you have to watch your diet lmao

Fuck you, feminists, honestly go fuck yourselves far far away from me
>>
>>18028423
Mental health care for men is a super important issue.

But why don't men get the right care?

Is it possibly because their forefathers built a masculine society in which it was unacceptable?

I think women should be on board with fixing these things. But men still have the power over the structures they built. If you want men to have better mental health care, you need to talk to men about that. I don't doubt that there are women who would ridicule a man for seeking help, but I imagine the percentage of men who would do so is much higher.
>>
>>18028424
>I imagine the percentage of men who would do so is much higher.
Not really, for the same reason they're not out supporting each other the way women do. Mostly men don't give a shit and just focus on their own shit typically. Unless you try to drag him into your therapy, I'd bet money that he'll just ignore it.
>>
>>18028424
That's bullshit, stfu please and never talk again.

Psychatry and therapy is a meme and is fucking worthless. My brother has become some kind of medicated zombie because he fell for the "treat your depression" meme.

The cure for weakness or depression is to fucking do stuff.

Men do not need the help of women to "fix" anything about what would be possible "wrong" with manhood or male problems.

Also, i don't think men with health issue should "aknowledge" their weakness. That's even more fucking unhealthy and you the likes of you are responsible for condoning this stupid way to live. You have to shame those who show weakness, you have to shame and push their ass so hard they get up and fix themselves. That's the way it works best. By making people believe they can get away with a "soft" treatment, you're prolonging their condition. That's stupid and even criminal.

Things are fucking simple, both for men and women. You stfu and you DO what you have to do.

Men don't have to complain (I'm not complaining here, just trying to put some fucking sense into people.)
Men don't have to show weakness, and that's totally fine, because the only thing to do is to act, to do stuff. That's the healthy way to live for a man. (And a woman, but they're getting way to vocal these last decades.)

So everybody STFU about these stupid "issues" ang get to fucking WORK, slaves!!!

Now i have to go to work, so i can produce stuff for your sorry asses, motherfuckers, because i'm not a lazy or depressed sack of shit, fuck you by the way

so long, fuckers, sorry for the broken english, not my native language
>>
>>18028071
because men are actually people, not walking wombs
>>
>>18028435

I'm pretty sure you're producing things for a member of the owning class who is exploiting the surplus value of your labor, not my sorry ass.
>>
>>18028438
Yeah i bet i do, that's why the only fucking problem in this world is the inequalities between super rich people owning every fucking ressource on earth and the common pleb.

Almost all the other problems are irrelevant, feminism, antiracism and the likes, it's fucking bullshit.

Now i really gotta go or my boss is gonna fuck my sorry slave ass up
>>
>>18028205
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AukGO-D9kN8
>>
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>>18028071
Gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8
Now GTFO.
>>
>>18028147
Wow where are those women?
>>
>>18028422
Okay, based on a quick study, it seems that at 50mg of testosterone cypionate a week a woman would actually have about 30% more testosterone than a man. I've also read some studies that show that high estrogen levels improve muscular recovery, so it could be a double whammy.

This was a bit of my concern. These things aren't overly well documented to begin with. Simply giving a woman the testosterone that a man does doesn't necessarily mean that the women would gain muscle mass at the same rate as the man. Studies seem to indicate that both men and women gain muscle mass relative to their starting lbm at the same rate, and that test only increasing static lbm.

Might just go ask /fit/. They should know more about test than anyone I'd imagine.
>>
>>18028071
If we judged women that much we'd run out of people.

I'm totally okay with that.

actually never mind in 20 years the our population would be cat ladies with sperm bank babies.
>>
>>18028452
50mg of testosterone a week for an extended period of time is enough to be HRT for a trans guy of average weight. Any girl taking that would look like a guy in a year or two.

Idk about gaining muscle mass at the same rate as a man, but within maybe 6 months of taking that much, I easily and quickly put on muscle, especially compared to how I was before.
>>
>>18028390
>It is harder for a woman to be skinny than it is for a man to be completely ripped.
/fit/ here.
Being skinny means a relatively low amount of bodyfat, which needs you to have a good diet. Being ripped means a really low amount of bodyfat while maintaining a high amount of muscle. Men start looking "ripped" below 10% bodyfat. As a man you can achieve it easy as you say, if you have god like genetics. Otherwise it's achieved through a very strict diet and strict training routine or both+ steroids. Being ripped takes a huge amount of work and dedication, so much that it's practically impossible to keep up over multiple years. Being skinny needs work and dedicatio too, but less so.
>>
>>18028071
Who cares? Women don't do anything for men anymore anyways.

Don't think for a second that any happiness or lasting sustenance can come from another person. It's all you.
>>
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>>18028071
Sperm is cheap and plentiful, eggs are rare.

Tribe of 1 man and 100 women leads to 100 babies. Tribe of 1 woman and 100 men leads to aggressive gay rape and inevitable extinction.

This is why women get away with absolutely everything. They are essential to our survival. For now.
>>
>>18028514
This is true. Sometimes I wish it was back like just after world wars where all the men had died so there was a shit tonne of females to males.
Be walking around like a pimp ma niggas 'sayin aye.
>>
After many relationships and now stuck in one that I am not happy I realised that while a woman might like someone, it is more important for her to have someone to support her financially and emotionally than to make you, the supporter really happy.

The majority of them treats us as the guy the "takes care" of me (and kids), all this romance that some people show or like to say exists only for some short period of time during or in the beginning of the relationship.

It is sad... Tbh, I would like some easy fixed woman to fuck and some good guy friends. Thats it, no need for woman to cuddle and shit. It is expensive and problematic.
>>
>>18028396
You have no idea just how hard I want to procreate. It's pure biology.

>pointing out fallacies
It's really not that hard
Just a good course in logic and you can prick through most people's reasoning flaws
> my tv is black and white
> penguins are black and white
> tvs are penguins
Etc
>>
>>18028554
I've got a turkey baster, come on over to my place I'll sort you out.
>>
>>18028558
Actually medical syringes work better.
>>
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>>18028573
Hey, I'm a terrain analyst, not a doctor.
>>
>>18028573
Not same person but both work for procreation. Peace bitch.
>>
>>18028581
Biomedical scientist up in this bitch. Haha
>>
Women literally have to just not be fat and not chop somebody's dick off in their sleep. Thats it. Anybody saying otherwise should stop doing so many fucking mental gymnastics lmao
>>
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>>18028606
Sorry man, I'm just kinda a little fucked up from not being able to figure out what makes me so unattractive to women.
>>
>>18028609
You're probably insecure as hell, over what idk.
>>
>>18028581
>>18028599
These are both me.
>>18028606
Huh? Not sure if agreeing or having a go. what you say vaguely makes sense though haha
>>
>>18028616
Me either
>>
>>18028147
>young
kinda defeats the purpose if I intent to marry her
>hairless
gotta be a radfem out there getting fucked rn
>not fat
we both know slampigs are getting dick
>not too thin
/fa/ pls
>t&a
bruh, you're in flat chest heaven (4chan)
>have a good face
or a plain modest one
>dress sexy
not a requirement
>high libido but not outside relationship
get back in the kitchen
>job but not too much job
ya got me
>look great cuz makeup/high maintenance
i don't like makeup, rather see acne than makeup
>must dress well/not spend hours dressing
HURRY THE FUCK UP BITCH! THE OPERA!
>must have friends
not really, not at all
>not deprioritize relationship
that's a given or else you lose the guy.
>>
>>18028622
that is, if you don't prioritize the relationship, things are gonna look grim for the girl anyway.
>>
>>18028143
>women have to be "not fat"
not anymore
>women have to know hot to clean and cook
not anymore
>women are also expected to give birth to children and take care of them
not anymore
>Women are expected to be nice or else they're considered a bitch.
Women usually are bitches if they're not being nice because they don't understand assertiveness.
>They can't be crazy and they can't be selfish.
They're usually both.

Sorry but you need to update your list because a lot of these things aren't socially expected anymore. It's a bogeyman that women continue to claim exists.
>>
>>18028205
Don't blame us for your shitty decision making skills
>just swipe right

a beating is too good for you.
>>
>>18028620
Then figure it or no pussy for you lmao
>>
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>>18028662
Nah, I think I prefer things this way.
>>
>>18028147
>This is actually what women think they h a v e to do.
>>
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>>18028174
I agree
>>
>>18028681
Evidently not, or they'd actually do it.
>>
>>18028163

Media panders to men too.
Do you think all the lesbian sex scenes in gladiator type shows are for women?
Just because there are feel good shows for fatties, doesn't mean actual society treats them like that.

I was loyal and did everything for my ex bfs that cheated on me too. Pretty sure there are just plenty of shitty people in both genders.

>mgtow
If you choose to live this way, it's your life but i do hope you fall in love with the right girl by accident. Being alone can only be good for so long and there are good women that would be deserving of a loyal man.
>>
>>18028071
>guys who expect anything more than that are labelled "assholes who don't appreciate women"
not really guys make very similar demands regarding a womans personality. Also they care a lot of their sex history.
>Am I wrong here?
yes, and you know you're wrong
>>
>>18028071

Men are desperate and take anything they get.

Women don't need sex as much.

Supply and demand.
Men get even more desperate as women have more to pick from and get picker.

OP if any non-fat, low tier girl came up to you and offered to fuck you, would you? Or do you have standards?

Men in general threw standards away. This is what you get because you're so desperate for sex.
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