Hey /adv/ Do people really change? And I don't mean over

Yes. But they have to be capable of self-reflection and self-criticism, they have to be able to really admit and understand their flaws, mistakes, weaknesses, etc. I find that a LOT of people just can't seem to do that. They might be able to see that their actions hurt someone, they might feel bad about that, but they can't really look at THEMSELVES and say "yup, that part there is not great, I need to work on that."

>>16518645
but what if the part that has to change is the part that keeps making excuses not to change? I self reflect like a ma fucker and think about all the things that need changing, but when it comes down to actually doing something about it, I'll end up fuckin off

>>16518621
No. People cannot change on their own; it takes some kind of crisis or realization to change them. Sometimes its something unpredictable or trivial, or something they've seen hundreds of times but needed to see it one more time for it to "click"...sometimes its a drug or an stupid accident, but invariably the kind of change you are referring to comes from a perspective shift that relies on something in their environment hitting them in the right place at the right time

>>16518682
OP here. This is what worries me. That I'll be a lazy coward until I hit absolute rock bottom or something devastating happens, forcing me to change, but by then I'll be past my prime

>>16518645
everyone is capable of self-reflection/criticism to some degree, and blind to themselves to some degree. Either they already changed it, or its not really a change. Circular argument is circular.

>>16518706
I didn't say you had to wait for "rock bottom" (which is tricky because its a subjective ie. changeable thing itself). On the other hand, you can't just try to preemptively change your character either. You should try changing what you Do instead of what you Think. When it comes to individual conscious actions, thought may come first, but when it comes to personality, thought follows action. You can't just be the kind of person you want to be, but you can make an effort to do the kind of things you want to do, talk to people that embody the traits you want to have, read, expose yourself to new situations or decide to focus on different aspects of the situation you find yourself in

>>16518706

Be more specific, man. What needs to change?

Try putting yourself into a situation that forces you to change. Jump in the deep end, sink or swim. I'd try to think of examples if I knew what you were talking about

People can change, but it's not as simple as waking up and saying "I think I'll change today". It's easiest in the wake of traumatic events; when you already have no choice but to adapt to a radical change in your life situation, "sneaking in" an extra change or two is not so difficult. This is part of how military training got its reputation for changing people: it starts with a big trauma, and slips the changes in behind it.

It is possible at other times, but it requires a TON of willpower and discipline: more than anyone can summon consistently. Some people manage anyway, on rare occasions, but there's an element of luck to it: the wrong temptation at a bad time can shatter your efforts.

>>16518723
I guess I kinda thought that if I convinced myself first then action would follow. desu senpai its all about being motivated, as I am kinda lazy and get by with the minimum requirements. I just dont want to be this way forever. Ive never taken joy in accepting a challenge or doing a hard days work and I fee like a child because of it.

people are capable of really changing- but something has to happen to trigger that change. It can be anything from a tragic event to a suddent realization.
Somehow, one's resolve needs to change

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>>16518739
I want to be a motivated guy that gets up and tackles the day kinda thing. I'm a creative thinker and am a good writer when I put my mind to it, but I couldnt be bothered to actually practice writing, music or art and then kick myself in the ass for being bad at it. I'm also about 30 pounds over weight and don't have a companion, and I'm broke a lot.

I get by fairly easily and I'm not a total fuck up, but I could just be doing a lot better.

>>16518621

Yes and no, I don't know, maybe we are all just going with the flow.

More specifically, let's take some givens:

1. It's pretty much proven that if people think they have willpower, they do. There are studies showing that if the subjects are inadvertently led to believe that a person has an infinity amount of willpower, they will stay with a task far longer than if they aren't led to believe so. Also, people who believe willpower Is not an exhaustible resources are able to apply it for longer.

2. People are creatures of habit - instill a habit for a couple of months, and it takes very little willpower to keep it going.

3. Actions do correlate with reality - I.e. in 99% of the population, studying and working out will yield results.

So far so good. Except if we take the average adult, they have maybe 4 hours in their life to do anything with

1. Sleep 8 hours (it's hard to be productive on seven in an intense job while lifting)
2. Hour before work, hour after. Let's say grooming, cleaning, preparing food is covered here.
3. 8, 8, 2, 18/24.

In reality, I find that most of the people I know making "real money" work around 9 hrs: 19/24. Let's average out 1 hr/day for working out - 20/24. We also have to study for professional exams or study for work 21/24.

This leaves you 3-4 hrs a day to "change something." In reality I find that it's enough for one study session or something along those lines. Also, I find that problems arise - cars break, health issues, trying to maintain friendships, etc.

So changing is, in reality, very hard, and there is a reason most adults don't do it. Old habits and environments are also hard to get out of. It is possible, it's just difficult, and any sort of accomplishment takes focused effort, hitting it hard. For example, if you are learning a language or working out, you have to do several hours every few days, or you will regress faster than in your progress. This is an example, but close to fact.

>>16518776

It does also depend on your IQ, genetic potential, your diet, etc. In reality, you will find many people simply getting crushed by life, things getting worse and worse for them every year.

Also, the 3-5 hours is an overly optimistic figure. First of all, it assumes you aren't married and don't have kids (not that you faggots have to worry about it, har har). It assumes no other family obligations or extenuating circumstances.

The biggest thing it assumes is drive - the idea that your effort will be worth it. Again, in reality you will see progress isn't linear - for example, once you get into high level competition for jobs, you will find yourself competing with people who literally started at 6 years old and never had other jobs, so they could focus on education. You will find yourself competing with people whose IQ is in the 130s and who have far more experience than you. Not only that, but they like what they do.

You will find that working out can lead to a number of injuries.

You will find that learning languages takes far longer than you anticipated.

And son on, and so forth. At that point, being a basement dwelling neckbeard suddenly becomes understandable to some degree.

Of course, you can struggle against it, and I would argue that there are means, but the answer to the opening question is far from clear-cut.

>>16518621

People can certainly change for the worse. I'd like to think that the reverse is therefore also possible. For instance, I used to be on top of shit as a kid - got my homework done, kept everything neat and tidy, etc.

Then vidyagaems and high school happened and ever since then I've been lazy as fuck, really distracted and procrastinate all the time. The only time I get really in the zone is if I'm working on something with my hands. I'm trying to reverse that but having a smartphone is making it worse again because I'm always staying at it for no real reason.

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>>16518776
This makes the most sense. I think ive been looking for a miracle answer but the truth seems to be that "it's just really fuckin hard"

>>16518645
The only people that can change are the ones that you imagine admitting their flaws over time, as you see their flaws currently as they are.

>>16518795
are you me? this sounds like my life. And this is also why I enjoy art though it frustrates me because im so awful (working with hands)

>>16518754

Yeah I was like this until my late 20s. It sounds stupidly simple, but this is what worked for me:

Put it on paper. Right now, make a list of things you could realistically do with your time tomorrow, that would move you closer to your goals. Start small. "Do 20 pushups and 20 situps." "Write 2 pages of anything." "Call a friend/family member you haven't spoken to in a while." Things like that.

Print the list out, or write it down by hand. Tape it up on the wall in your home, near your computer or TV or wherever you do most of your time-wasting. Cross things off the list once you've done them. Once you've done everything on the list, you can spend the rest of your free time however you like. But not before.

I was never a very organized person before, I'd heard the idea of "write out your goals" but I thought it was cheesy, and wasn't any different from just having your goals in mind. But it is. It really helps a lot.

It's all about breaking your goals into manageable chunks. Take one step at a time. And don't let yourself be discouraged by small failures. If it doesn't work today, it goes on tomorrow's list, and you try again.

At first it'll be tough, you'll stop and start, you'll have days where you say "fuck it" and ignore the list. But you don't take the list down until you've crossed everything off. And over time, you'll find that your habits change, you'll find that you're choosing to work even more than you wrote on the list, because it actually makes you feel better than jerking off or watching TV or whatever.

>>16518795

>Then vidyagaems and high school happened and ever since then I've been lazy as fuck, really distracted and procrastinate all the time. The only time I get really in the zone is if I'm working on something with my hands. I'm trying to reverse that but having a smartphone is making it worse again because I'm always staying at it for no real reason.

I used to fix up cars when I was a kid. Fix them up and sell them. Modify mine, whatever. Then I realized that it's only enjoyable because it's easy and results are guaranteed. If I spent that time studying the field I switched into, I would probably be able to retire by 30.

A friend of mine loves working with his hands - he makes all kinds of shit. Occasionally he gets projects from startups to do some 3d model or some shit, for example, he designed some sort of common phone holder for a fitness start up (used with app to measure w/o intensity, etc). He made maybe a couple of grand.

Enjoyable things are rarely practical. Successful people pass them off as so, because:

1. The are generally out to promote their field.
2. For the elite, they really ARE worth the time, but that doesn't apply to hobbyists.

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>>16518810
Ive done this before to. Usually ignore the list until it's been a week. But I havnt tried posting daily lists and and only removing complete ones. A wall covered in to do lists might actually get me moving. I'll try it again.

I think what I need is a fuckin attitude adjustment, to believe that I really can do it. It's so goddamn easy to procrastinate when no one is pushing you to do things

>>16518810
I think I remember you giving out this advice before, although with a more detailed backstory of your struggles. Recognize the structure and style, you'll make it anon, trailer and all

Do this OP, having an external indicator of what you want helps in actually achieving it