How do I tell if a comic has good paneling? I oftentimes hear

if you can keep up with it and not get confused by the order of the panles the paneling is good

>>162245594
The whole strip is build around this particular idea of paneling so it works.
However it's not very clear and would be tiring for the eyes if it was used over many pages.

>>162245594
now post the while thing, I wanna be disgusted.

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Just go read some fucking manga.

>>162245594
Does the paneling convey what the story sets out to do? If the scene is sad, does it play with your emotions, if it's a fast-paced fight scene, do the panels flow well into the next ones, and so on.

You could make 6 generic square boxes in each page, and it'd be terribly bland while also failing to convey anything interesting.

>>162247991
>You could make 6 generic square boxes in each page, and it'd be terribly bland while also failing to convey anything interesting.
This is why it's hard for me to get into 4koma. The paneling is pretty boring. I understand that it's a formula more than a flow of a story but I don't think I've ever finished a 4koma even when I enjoyed the anime it was adapted from.

>>162248210
A good 4koma will usually have a good rhythm going for it. It might even be the most important part since comedy is all about timing, but like you said it's still really restricting and I find myself liking their anime adaptation better.

>>162245594
If it follows the 180 degree rules

Akira Toriyama is a good example of good action flow. He always has full control over the pace of his manga. Normally, he uses a lot of in-between panels to make it clear what's going on, but intentionally cuts them out entirely when he wants the action to look particularly fast. Everyone jobbing to 17 and 18 for the first time is a great example. A whole lot of shit happens, but there's so little transition between any of it that it makes the scene look like the entire fight was finished within a few seconds. Once the fight finishes, it suddenly goes back to using a lot of in-between panels of the Androids turning to face whoever they're about to talk to and stuff.

You wouldn't know it from the anime, but the DBZ manga's action scenes were pretty masterful near the end.

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>>162245594
That's like asking: 'how do I know if this food tastes good?'
It's something natural, you should notice if it's bad.

>>162245594
If you don't notice it, it's good.
Read a few American Superhero comics to get some bad paneling.
Other aspects that play together with this, is how you position the actors and where they look, speech bubbles and so on. Does it all work together to lead your eyes along or do they work against each other?
Is, for example, the paneling and position of the characters leading you one way, but the text bubbles require you to move your eyes the other way?
Good photography follows similar "rules" (or rather creative thought processes) , in case you can't find any resources about comics online.

>>162249911
This.
>near the end
He was better in the early arcs. I think he peaked at Goku vs Cell. Lots of shit going on, lots of movement that feels perfectly natural while impressive and superhuman.

Goku vs Kid Buu was great too, though.

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>>162249911
This is one of my favorite pages

>>162250448
The square panels might feel a bit bland but the transition between 3 and 4 is great.
But the best page of this fight is when Vegeta punches the air while Goku uses his momentum to jump over him, do a flip and come back.

>>162250448
Damn that's nice

>>162250399
>He was better in the early arcs
>I think he peaked at Goku vs Cell
The Cell saga itself is way closer to the end of the manga than the beginning.

>>162250347
Another factor: How unambiguous is the order of panels? Could something be read both ways (if you imagine the panels to be empty) or does the sectioning and width between panels make it clear which order to read them in?
Wide or long panels can be used to set the scene, multiple identical panels might be used to focus on the difference or same-ness of something (for example a change of facial expression).

I would suggest to read Tezuka's Phoenix. It has a lot of very obvious paneling -
sometimes it even feels a little over-constructed. But if you read it with the intent of learning something about paneling, it can be very insightful. Not to mention that it's a really good manga.


There are also a lot of different styles of paneling, depending on the author as well as the genre.
Action stories like Toriyama's stuff can be very dynamic, while Shintaro Kago uses a very clean, static style (unless he plays with paneling itself as in OP's picture). I think it fits very well with his ridiculous content. By being very neutral and static, the focus is put on the content. This neutral paneling frames the content in an almost clinical context, making it seem even more strange and unnatural.

You need to read bad manga. No one learns to appreciate good paneling by only reading good examples of it.

>>162250586
Yes, but the Cell arc was overall weaker than the others in terms of fighting choregraphy to me, Goku vs Cell being an exception.
The fights that impressed me the most were the 22nd tournament, Goku vs Piccolo Daimao, the Saiyans, most of Namek and one or two fights in the Cell and Buu arcs like Vegeta vs Cell (still remember that flying kick), Goku vs Cell and some of the Buu fights especially with the bubble gum gimmick

>>162250526
Toriyama always emphasized clarity above everything else, so he almost exclusively used square panels. It gave the manga a very bare-bones feel that usually worked in its favor.

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>>162245594
>>162245629
>>162245731
>>162246135
>>162250693
>>162250638
>>162250589
Question: how do you deal with the fact that you're missing out on at least 50% of the paneling when you read manga in one-page format on you computer, tablet, online, etc.? Really good paneling doesn't just create flow between panels on one page, it also creates flow between the pages themselves. Well-done, it can effectively turn discontiguous imagery into a two-page spread, but that is almost never picked up on by the scanlators. You can alleviate this a bit by using two-page mode in manga readers, but it's still hard to keep track because the scanlators often leave out blank pages, change up the numbering on spreads, and so on.
Do you pretty much have to buy the physical manga to get the real experience?

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If it looks like this I'll consider it good paneling.
If it's just perfect squares and rectangles neatly arranged together I wouldn't call it particularly good. Most artists already do that. If you want it to be good it needs to be ingenious and stand out. You open any page of this author's manga and the first thing you notice is the unique paneling.

>>162251433
Use two-up view?

>>162251434
>If it looks like this I'll consider it good paneling.
>If it's just perfect squares and rectangles neatly arranged together I wouldn't call it particularly good. Most artists already do that. If you want it to be good it needs to be ingenious and stand out.
Unique and good are not the same thing, and paneling is not about making cool shapes.

>>162251433
>you're missing out on at least 50% of the paneling when you read manga in one-page format
>at least 50%
I haven't really thought about this before, and it's a good observation, but I think you're exaggerating immensely. The number of pages that use layouts like that is way less than 50%, and every second page would require you to turn the page anyway, plus things like that are way less than 50% of the paneling on the page to begin with. I'd be more concerned about missing transitions, honestly (the final panel on the right-hand page leading your eye left and up, for example), but even that's fairly minor overall.

>>162251433
>Do you pretty much have to buy the physical manga to get the real experience
Pretty much every image viewer has a two page and manga-view option.

>>162251433
I'm personally not a big fan of two pages mode. It's okay on paper, not too great on a screen, for some reason, maybe because I usually end up spoiling myself the next page. I don't think I'm missing out much here.

>>162251434
Is this a joke?
Good panelling isn't just about how you arrange some boxes. The paneling can be simple, its the composition of whats in them, placement of text and how it all flows as you read through them thats what matters

>>162251434
>If you want it to be good it needs to be ingenious and stand out
I disagree. The paneling isn't only a part of your style it's also a tool for the reader to follow the story. There's a reason paneling is usually done in a certain way. It needs to be compatible with human visual perception and how reading works.

That's not to say that you can't play with it, break the rules or purposely do something irritating with it. But saying that it needs to stand out to be good is ridiculous.

It sets the context of the panel content and sometimes the best solution is neutral boxes.
In either case, the actual panels are just one aspect, and you need to consider the content, how you structure your scene, which view to use, etc just as well.

The panels need to _work together_ with the contents, not be interesting on their own.

>>162251434

I agree with this guy.

>>162251773
You're just trying to piss people off.

>>162251575
>>162251628
Yeah I mentioned two-page view (it's how I prefer to read manga on PC), but you really have to kind of guess which page goes on the right (odd or even), and again, scanlators have a tendency to switch up the order when there are interruptions in the normal page flow.

>>162251593
I agree it depends on the context, but I think really sophisticated paneling does go across both pages a lot. I posted a YKK snapshot because it's a manga that's full of schemes that go across both pages. It could be 10%, it could be 20%, but I think the point still stands that most people who read scans are getting a really abridged experience of the manga.

>>162251593
I'm not talking about making cool shapes, I'm talking about using the panels in a creative way to bring life and atmosphere into the story.

>>162251715
>>162251721
I just don't find any visual appeal in normally arranged square boxes. I think having good flow and good paneling are different things, since the story can have good flow well even if you have simple square panels.
This is just my personal opinion, I won't praise the paneling unless it stands out to me. I see normal squares every day in pretty much everything I read, so unless it's different I won't think much of it or even notice it.

>>162251940
> I'm talking about using the panels in a creative way to bring life and atmosphere into the story
Which has basically nothing to do with whether they're squares or not.

>I think having good flow and good paneling are different things, since the story can have good flow well even if you have simple square panels.
What the fuck? You aren't even going to try to support that or connect those two things? What the hell does "you can have good flow with square panels" have to do with whether flow is part of paneling? The use of panels, square or not, in an organized manner to guide the reader and affect the reception of the content is absolutely part of paneling. That's the main goddamn goal, I would argue.

>>162251940
>so unless it's different I won't think much of it or even notice it.
Then it does its job very well and certainly deserves the adjective "good".
Granted, practically every manga has at least decent paneling, so I can understand why you'd try to reserve that category for few.

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>>162250526

>>162252337
This one seems okay if only because it's short. It gets bad in long conversations or during fights

>>162252337
I don't know, go ask /co/. This is the manga board.

>>162245594
That artist's labyrinth shorts always make my rock dick hard.
Anyone remember the one I meant?

>>162251434
Please don't use Hayakawa's works as an example for your bad argument.
It doesn't matter what the panels are like, as long as the story flows properly and conveys what it tries to do. Plain, regular boxes work just as well and in a properly composed work you rarely even notice the fact that the panels are so simple. There's also hits and misses when it comes to unique paneling, sometimes it becomes too confusing if the author hasn't properly thought out how the page actually reads out as opposed to just looking cool.

>>162251940
That's panel fetishism, most of us will be happy as long as it does its job.

>>162252597
It was Iku Musume

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>>162252648
Ika

>>162252529
If it flows properly and conveys what it tries to do then good, but I wouldn't go out of my way to point it out or think it's particularly good. After all I see that every day in almost every other series I read. That's all.

>>162252697
> If it flows properly and conveys what it tries to do then good
That's what it's all about, though.

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The sword is literally interrupting the dialogue.

>>162252785
That's actually pretty clever.

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>>162252785
I love stuff like that. Though in this case, it is interrupting the narration.

>>162252785
>>162255054
My first thought was that scene from Terraformars. Especially in a series where fights take a minor pause to breakdown different facts that page was really well done and unexpected.

Everyone here posted examples of what they call good paneling, but what are examples of bad paneling?

>>162249963
good comic

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>>162255861
Nanoha Forces.
Every fight scene is a bunch of mid shots followed by the same uninspired close up. It's really lacking.

>>162250347
>If you don't notice it, it's good.
True. Or, if you realize that the paneling makes the story flow, that's also awesome.
It's /co/ but look at late Calvin and Hobbes Sunday comics for examples of how paneling can add to the dtory.

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>>162250448
Murata is better desu

>>162245594
https://youtu.be/jJK7oysHoMw?t=590

>>162249963
Damnit, I loved love roma so gosh darn mich

I've heard of "deconstructing comics" but this is ridiculous!

>>162262393
This is mid tier analysis.
>Git gud
Or are you one of those "c'mon turn your brain off and just relaaax my dude gfahgfahgfah"?

>>162245594
If you don't notice it it's probably good. Outside of that there's some creative panel usage too.

Poor paneling gets really obvious with hentai, some artists fill the pages up into a cluttered mess for no reason.

This seems like a good place to ask this question.
Usually when you buy translated manga they are sold as the thick large copies.
But the Japanese can get smaller thinner manga books. Does the layout change in these smaller sized books?

>>162251433
I've read a lot of physical and digital manga and it doesn't really matter that much. And, like others have said, two page mode exists.

>>162262499
It was kind of a joke. Like they're literally deconstructing the comic panels with the weird cross sections. I didn't mean anything more then that.

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Check out Hitomi-sensei. Shake-O does some amazing shit.

>>162255861
Just open any shoujo magazine, like Ribbon or something. I still don't understand what's the deal with shoujo and this kind of clusterfuck of a paneling.

>>162251940
Then why read manga? Most of it is basic. Go to a modern art gallery or something.

>>162252785
Fuck I love this artist and Vector Spectacle so much

Good paneling won't stand out.

>>162262499
Anon was trying to make a bad pun. He failed.

>>162255861
Hox has an article on this with examples of both.

>>162251434
>If it's just perfect squares and rectangles neatly arranged together
This is how the majority of Western comics do things, and the readers seem happy enough.

>>162262741
>>162262946
I too was riffing but I just sounded like an asshole I guess.

Paneling is serious business though.

>>162245594
"Flow" is often brought up, because it's the easiest to understand and explain. Basically it's leading the eye of the reader through a smooth, fluid path using mostly the positioning of panels and speech bubbles, sometimes with character placement, poses and background composition as well. Its positive influence tends to be overestimated by people on 4chan who do know what it's about, however when the flow is bad, even an untrained eye will notice it. I don't have an example of it at hand, but if you ask around on /co/, someone might eventually show you one.

There is some basic stuff like the size of the panels - the bigger the panel, the more your readers will focus on it, so use it to show something important, whatever that may be on your page. If you look at the right page of >>162251433, you can see Alpha tries the coffee at a steady pace, then there's a bit longer stop at her contemplating the taste and finally, the biggest focus is on her being satisfied with it, with a short additional panel with a zoom out at the end to drive the point. It's a very neatly constructed page for a very mundane activity.

Manga uses different speech bubble sizes as well, varying fonts quite a lot to emphasize the importance of a given fragment of dialogue. This is somewhat lost in scanlations as typesetters usually won't bother with different text sizes. It's a pity, because you can manipulate the feeling of a panel and a page with that too, e.g. a small text in a big speech bubble will read differently from a big text in an equally big speech bubble. There's no similar variety in western comics, though some stuff like loud shouting will be emphasized there, most of the time. On the other hand American comics really like their bold and italic fonts to mark certain words of interest in a sentence rather than highlighting the whole speech bubble (Japanese would probably break the speech bubble into parts and modify one of the new parts instead).

cont.

>>162263550
Quite a lot of stuff carries over from cinema (I'm not saying "anime" because anime at its roots looked a whole lot at Hollywood in the first place). Since movies don't have the luxury of changing the size of the screen at their leisure, they have to manipulate the mood of a scene with various different angles, shots and levels of zoom. There are directors who are literally known for some techniques they used, like the spaghetti western king Sergio Leone and his extreme close ups on eyes. Studying movies known for their direction and camera work is a genuinely good practice - you should always learn from the best and movies, when broke down to single camera shots, aren't very different from comics really. They get to use sound and music, we get to have fun with panelling, but a lot of it is the same shit.

While I'm still at the movies, some tips for storyboarders and directors are applicable to comics too, like the rule of not swapping character positions around within a single scene. When you draw Shinji on the right and Rei on the left, don't switch them around when you change angles, it breaks the flow (yes, that "flow"). You can actually rotate the viewpoint a lot while still maintaining the character's relative position to each other, so take it into consideration.

Backgrounds make a whole lot of difference. You can do it the Kubo way, or you can actually try to manipulate the mood with your backgrounds. Shoujo manga are often examples of doing this in a simple way with particular tones and textures. You know, those roses, lilies, stars and whatever shit goes around there. Actually, shoujo manga often have a considerably different, far less rigid panelling than shounen manga do. Anyway, backgrounds contribute to the mood a lot; dark backgrounds are associated with danger, dread, disgust, generally negative feelings, gray backgrounds are uncertainty and so on.

I could write quite a lot more on the topic, but it's not my blog, so fuck it.

>>162260711
Murata is really really good at pacing. He's very conservative with his paneling, but boy does he know what he's doing.

It's especially interesting if you look at his redrawings. How he re-imagines scences, how he changes his layout. That's very interesting from a paneling point of view.

>>162263550
>then there's a bit longer stop at her contemplating the taste and finall
It's important to mention that this specific panel has no borders. Literally giving the reader's feeling of time no limit and consequently giving the "contemplating of tea"-moment a timeless feeling. Integrating seemingly irrelevant emotions like this fluidly into the timing of the story is what makes good paneling.

>>162263550
Too long, summarize this in 11 words or less please.

>>162265985
Understanding the action flow without looking at text is good paneling

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>>162251433
There are file reading programs that let your flip, split, and resize pages to fit the size of whatever you're reading them on.

And I must say there are manga that look better digital compared to their book counterparts, because spreads can get fucked up by the binding of they're not intentionally drawn to be split in the middle. Dorohedoro is really big example of this, I have the physical volume of this and you can't even see half of Kai's face because it's swallowed by the spine of the book. The most important reveal in the series was ruined.

>>162255861
Anything webtoon, nearly all Korean webcomics have an ugly cellphone scrolling format.

>>162245594
If you forget that paneling is even a thing while you're reading then it has good paneling.

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Nausicaa has the densest pages and I love it. I guess because it was printed much larger back then compared to standard manga size today.

>>162262936
>>162270103
This is often repeated, but I think it's kind of bullshit, or at best an oversimplification. If you take no notice of the paneling at all, all that really proves is that it's at least passable (assuming you aren't completely blind, I mean). It might be more than passable, or it might not, but that really all depends on the kind of thing being attempted, and also on the reader. There's plenty of completely-unremarkable stuff that still isn't notably bad, and there's plenty of flashy stuff that's very well done.

>>162262797
The different style/structure is mostly rooted in 70s 24-gumi work, and I think particularly Hagio and Takemiya's stuff. I don't have an issue with it most of the time, personally, but I can see how it could be an acquired taste.

>>162270943
I'm sure you've heard this a million times, but I fucking hate Nausicaa's paneling. I can barely feel any real sense of purpose or progression to the images he chooses, it feels like a slideshow with narration over it.

>>162270954
How is something not good when it does what it's supposed to. OP wasn't asking for "great", good is good. You probably just don't like that this opinion is prevalent, whether you realize it or not. A normal compulsion to be contrary in some way.

>>162271192
>How is something not good when it does what it's supposed to.
>what it's supposed to
Only fully true if "making the story comprehensible and not actively awkward/confusing" is everything paneling is supposed to do, which I can't agree with. This is why I said "at best an oversimplification" - it isn't totally wrong, but it's not a very good explanation, only captures a small part of it, and basically boils the whole thing down to extremely low standards in a way I wouldn't see anyone doing if asked "What is good direction," for example.

>You probably just don't like that this opinion is prevalent, whether you realize it or not. A normal compulsion to be contrary in some way.
Where the fuck did this come from? I criticized something someone said, so I must be a contrarian?

>>162263550
>>162265376
>>162263580
Nice.
Sasuga YKK.

>>162260711
Actually, I take it that much of the panel design/pacing is done, or at least influenced, by ONE. Take a look at Mob or even the original OPM and you'll see how ONE, despite his artwork, really excells at panel design.

Tsugumomo has great paneling.

>>162251785

>stop having opinion different from mine!!

Fuck off retard.

>>162260711
I don't know about panelling, but Murata knows how to make his pictures flow.
http://comicsalliance.com/manga-yusuke-murata-twitter-digital-comics-paper-deadlines/

What are your thoughts on breaking panels and content flowing into gutters (I think they are called that)? Usually I find it unnecessary.

Bleach unironically has good panelling

>>162263550
>I don't have an example of it at hand

I tend to find that a lot of shoujo manga has really bad flow.

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>>162273210
Thanks captain obvious

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>>162273310
Shoujo art is literally shit, most have horrible ass flow / panelling. Hell, even the art is shit, 9 out of 10 they cant even draw a fucking background and just leave everything blank / white or post some shit tier effect all over the page and call it background

And i am not touching the retarded ass proportion

>>162273369
Also that thing where they take up a vertical third of the page for the author to write a blog post about some meaningless crap.

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>>162273210
Nah fuck Kubo and his LEL CLIFF HANGER 2DEEP4U TRY 2 FIGURE WAT DA FUCK I JUST MADE HERE

>>162273369
Reminds me of Nozaki and his boxes because he can't into perspective.

>>162273369
>9 out of 10 they cant even draw a fucking background and just leave everything blank / white or post some shit tier effect all over the page and call it background
I like that, they draw the background only to tell you where they are. Once the characters are established in a location, focus on the characters and their emotions.

>>162273570
Go away Kubo

>>162269588
OPM webcomic is meant to be read scrolling down and has great paneling though.

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Good paneling is essentially like good camerawork, however there's an extra aesthetic layer related to how the entire page is composed.
Some of the hallmarks of good paneling are
>visually pulls the reader's eyes along in the way intended by the author
>invokes the appropriate tone of the scene
>inventive and well executed in a way that stirs the reader's imagination
Good paneling should be able to create a living, breathing scene with the reader's imagination very much in the same way that a good book narrative can.
Of course, part of that burden is on the reader themselves to be at a level that can interpret the art and provide imagination which is, again, like being able to comprehend a novel's text. Yet, masterfully done paneling is also adept at instilling imagination.

I've read a lot of comics from the American, European and Japanese industries and I'd have to say that Japanese manga has the highest average level of paneling sophistication. American comics probably have the lowest level, though there are standouts. Even still, there is a deniable trend in American comics towards rigid paneling. Here's an American comic that is well written, but unfortunately uses this basic paneling layout on every page.

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>>162251434
My friend of african descent. Hayakawa is fantastic.

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>>162273207
I like it, usually it's pertinent. Convey the sense emotions are overflowing or that a character is so larger than life he breaks the mold in his establishing shot.

>>162271284
You come across that way, dismissing it all as bullshit to start, when your argument isn't really any good. Just reeks of "here's my unique opinion that goes against the grain".

>>162251871
>you really have to kind of guess which page goes on the right
No you don't, just line up the whitespace in the middle, let the edges where the art goes to the edge be on the sides.

>>162270954
Good paneling won't draw attention to itself. You'll recognize it if you turn a critical eye towards a comic, but otherwise it shouldn't stand out. The kind of paneling that you're talking about, the kind that attempts to be novel and draw attention to itself, only serves as as substitute for engaging narrative at best.

>>162275469
>Good paneling won't draw attention to itself
That's entirely untrue. While there is good paneling that does not draw attention to itself, there is also good paneling that does.
>the kind that attempts to be novel and draw attention to itself, only serves as as substitute for engaging narrative at best.
Comics are a visual medium. The art and paneling is just as important as the dialogue and story.

Frankly, I find your blanket statements about paneling to be erroneous and disturbing. And no, I'm not the guy you replied to.

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>asian, grew up with manga
>read watchmen
>mfw
I mean watchmen sure is great in its own way, but it took me quite some time to get used to the paneling. I guess I should have treated it as a novel instead.

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>>162275854
The paneling is absolutely horrendous, isn't it? American comics are generally inferior when it comes to paneling technique. I know most people would call me a weeb for that, but I've been reading American comics all of my life, even when I was so young that I couldn't read and had to get someone else to read them to me. The level of the average American comic artist is inferior to the level of the average Japanese manga artist.

>>162275965
nice bait

The best way to demonstrate the importance of paneling is to post bad examples.
Remember to read left to right.

>>162276088
Japan holds a much larger comic market than America or Europe. It's no surprise that a region with a stronger focus in an industry would achieve a generally higher standard than others.

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>>162276193
Forget my page

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>>162276252
I thought the thumbnail was shadman's wrok which is always a dumpster fire.

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>>162276193
My example. The artist uses the same style of paneling for all of his pages. Important moments don't get any highlight because the presentation isn't different from the rest of the pages. While the story's interesting, it becomes a slog to read.

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>>162276213
You must have read a lot of shitty comics then. You don't get paneling like this from your average japanese artist.

>>162274302
does nigga change to that automatically or do u have a stick up ur butt

>>162276625
Are you being ironic?

>>162276625
>dude with good body a lot of money
>conservative and likes sport

how unexpected

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Kono Bijutsubu actually has a pretty good paneling for slice of life manga. It's not just focusing on the character but also the environment around the character, making it feels more comfy. The flow is also pretty fluid

>>162277025
Uchimaki-kun a cute! A CUTE!

>>162277025
The depiction of LINE group chat of this manga's recent chapter is a stroke of genius.

>>162270982
>feels like a slideshow with narration over it.
Miyazaki was an accomplished director, who himself did storyboards, before and during drawing Nausicaä, but while comics and cinema (and animation) share similarities, they still are completely distinct. That storyboard drawing shows in Nausicaä
Miyazaki draws well, but wasn't a mangaka, so he hadn't ever really learned into how you use only still images to convey something.

>>162276252
Jesus fuck

>>162275854
>>162275965
Watchmen's paneling was very deliberate and it's rigidity is interesting in it's own right. It's not some amateur move.

It's kind of like if someone decided to shoot a film in 4:3 aspect ratio today

>>162277779
That's absolutely laughable. It's just the standard American way of paneling. There's nothing special about it and if we were to judge it in comparison to other paneling styles, it's pretty lazy and uninspired.

>>162278135
The 3x3 paneling is done so that when the comic does break the rule at the end part, it will pop and show that shit got very real.

Some people might gloss over it and don't think it's effective, tho.

>>162278135
>It's just the standard American way of panelling.
Yes that's correct.
>There's nothing special about it and if we were to judge it in comparison to other paneling styles, it's pretty lazy and uninspired.
You're not supposed to compare it to other styles, you're supposed to compare it to other comics using the same format. I know it's an overused word and all but it's part of the deconstruction.

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Made in Abyss has been taking the whole 'panel shape should match what's happening' thing to extremes. The messy, handdrawn panel-lines are interesting as well.

>>162278238
Frankly, that's bunk. Watchmen does not follow the format you're describing.

>>162278328
>it's a deconstruction!
That isn't what deconstruction means and having an ironically stilted layout is still stilted.

>>162276625
Neither do you get this from your average American artist.

>>162278464
That is very nice.

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>>162278135
This man's seems to have missed the point of the paneling in Watchmen. Here's one example how Moore uses the standard 3x3 paneling to show Dr. Manhattan's concept of time.

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>>162278920

>>162278476
>it's a deconstruction!
>That isn't what deconstruction means and having an ironically stilted layout is still stilted.
I said it's PART of the deconstruction because Watchmen is the textbook definition of it.

>>162278920
>>162278950
Wow. He sometimes combined the three panels horizontally. That totally saves it from being extremely repetitive, stilted and uninspired. Face it. His layouts have no visual flow and are literally drawn in the same style of a storyboard.

>>162278969
Deconstruction is form literary analysis that asserts that a story has no objective meaning because the interpretation is entirely based on the reader's impression. It's not a way of telling a story.

>>162279097
I see you have no eye for good paneling. It's what I get for talking to a weeb.

>>162279097
>Deconstruction is form literary analysis that asserts that a story has no objective meaning because the interpretation is entirely based on the reader's impression. It's not a way of telling a story.
He probably meant it on another sense that to deconstruct is to expose the underlying assumptions of a genre.

>>162278920
>>162278950
Huh, I probably wouldn't get it if I didn't have hover zoom on.

>>162278969
The tvtropes deconstruction, which is "the thing was made dark and edgy"
Watchmen pokes sardonic fun at capeshit and plays around with common themes and tropes. It would be more accurate to call it parody, if parody did not have the meaning that it must be humorous.

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>>162245594
Maybe it would be easier to understand if you saw examples of bad paneling, you'll usually find them in amateur doujinshi.

The stuff I hate the most in doujinshi is hilariously rushed pacing and overuse of action effects/screentones, it ends up looking too funny.

>>162279160
Act smug all you want, but you've simply got nothing of substance to say.
The paneling in Watchmen has little variation and there is no sort of thought put into the visual flow of each page. It's just penned panel by individual panel without any sort of deeper thought in how they interact with each other. Sure, he gives Manhattan the overlaid poses in order to show how his time is out of sync but that has little do with the actual paneling, since the same effect could be accomplished in any sort of paneling layout, and in no way validates the rest of the comic which uses the same exact panel layouts for no reason other than that's just how they do every page.
You call me a weeb, but I've been reading American comics of all sorts (Marvel, DC, Fantagraphics, Darkhorse, Image, Mirage Studios, etc) for over 25 years.

>>162279244
See >>162278476
>having an ironically stilted layout is still stilted.

>>162279353
And the way they cram as many sex poses in one page. It looks like someone vomited a pile of bodies.

>>162279402
>>having an ironically stilted layout is still stilted.
I get your point, I was just expressing that I probably wouldn't find it out when I read it on a physical volume.

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>>162276625
Thats good in context but for something that you can look at a single page and just know whats going on i'd go with something like pic related.

Matt Fraction really is a genius with panel work.

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Here is some more panel work from Fraction, I love they way he uses the smaller panels inside of a larger image to show the passage of time, a lesser writer would have just used a standard 3 panel approach and let the gutter separate them.

>>162279701
That's all Aja not Fraction.

>>162279853
the artist does the panel work? I assumed the writer did it.

>>162279900
It depends on the comic but is mostly attributed to the artist

>>162279900
Depends on the creative team, but Aja does that sort of panel layout outside of his work with Fraction so I'd assume it's his work.

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this is probably my favorite use of panel work ever, It starts with tilted disconnected panels that portray the scene at different distances, then the panels becomes extreme in both context and number, the character is thinking about a lot of things very quickly, then the panels square up, the content of each becomes more cohesive, and the final panel is the panels from the top but its whole, the character has come to realization.

>>162278135
>It's just the standard American way of paneling.
>He's never read Lucky Luke.
k

>>162279402
I see your point but not all pages have this lack of sequence, maybe there's one page per chapter if I remember correctly. I'll think about what you said when I reread Watchmen someday.

>>162279097
>Deconstruction is form literary analysis that asserts that a story has no objective meaning because the interpretation is entirely based on the reader's impression.
Yes, that's exactly what Watchmen was saying about cape comics, especially their moral themes, of its day. Hence, it's a deconstruction. Try harder.

>>162279402
>since the same effect could be accomplished in any sort of paneling layout
Then you don't understand paneling.

>>162273907
Grids are bad apparently? I prefer grids and rectangular panels. Fancy shaped panels or backgrounds in the gutter or whatever don't really add anything to me, even if I see what the artist was trying to convey.

>>162279900
Western comics usually have a 2-3 man team. This one had three, Fraction, Aja, and Hollingsworth (plus other fill ins because the comic keeps getting delayed)

>>162273907
>basic paneling is bad
You don't understand paneling.

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Scott Mcloud's Making Comics is pretty helpful regarding comics

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I have nothing against the 3x3 grid, its easily readable, but you miss a lot of opportunitys to take advantage of the medium.

Look at the way the artist uses one very long vertical panel to show is the height of the building and thus the danger of the fall.

its just too safe and boring.

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>>162280304
>Western comics usually have a 2-3 man team.
I believe they sit around 5 plus editorial staff and can get pretty big unlike manga's typical small teams of mangaka and assistants.

>>162280226
No. Watchmen subverts cape tropes. Subvert. That's the word you want. Stop misusing deconstruction, evatard.

>>162280248
If you think a 3 x 3 panel layout is the only way to achieve that affect, than you don't understand paneling. And like I said before, that one scene still wouldn't excuse the fact that all of the other pages in the comic follow the same general 3 x 3 layout.

>>162280285
Using one layout for every page and ignoring any chance to enhance your visual narrative with thoughtful layouts is bad.

>>162280395
Next you'll try to argue that movies should use the entire screen for, "artistic appeal."

>>162280419
>editor works before the writer
?

>>162280433
>evatard
You tried.

>>162280433
>If you think a 3 x 3 panel layout is the only way to achieve that affect
No one said that. Nice strawman.

>than you don't understand paneling
>The, "I know you are but what am I?" defense.
Your argument is a 3x3 panel.

>Using one layout for every page and ignoring any chance to enhance your visual narrative with thoughtful layouts is bad.

>>162280448
Depends on the comic. Franchise works where the writer is writing a pre-existing character would have the editor handling the property and instructing the new writer on story guidelines previous works the character has been written in.

>>162280433
>Says paneling is too simple restrictive.
>Is too simple and restrictive on word use.
Irony.

>>162280433
Wow, claiming Watchmen's layouts weren't thoughtful. I've never seen someone bait this hard.

>>162280487
>No one said that.
>>162280248
>this type of effect can only be achieved with this exact layout
>but I totally understand paneling guise

>>162280509
>nonsensical ad hominem
Another one bites the dust.

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I sort of gauge how good the paneling is for a shounen based on the flow of the action scene, but then how do you judge stuff like shoujo and SOL where all the characters do is talk?

>>162280574
>butthurt abd shallow mass replies
"How to make a post devoid of substance but still get (You)s," 101.

>>162280625
your eye is guided more by the speech bubbles than the action, besides that its the same, about the flow and readability.

>>162280625
Replace "action" with "conversation"

>>162280574
>call people names while in a debator's high
>try and claim the moral high ground with the ad hom fallacy
Even more ironic.

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>>162251433
>Question: how do you deal with the fact that you're missing out on at least 50% of the paneling when you read manga in one-page format on you computer, tablet, online, etc.?
Hard to say. I wouldn't necessarily say I'm "missing out". If anything, comparatively it stutters your reading a tad but there have been some instances where I've thought a two page spread could have accentuated a joke/action scene. At the same time I also think one page formats sometimes have a better delivery for those heavy close up emotional shots that take a whole page.

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>>162280625
Like the other anons >>162280688 >>162280662 said, follow the speech bubbles.

>>162276252
>Dresden Codak
Is that fucking hack still making $5000 a month on his patreon for not putting out any content?

>>162276193
>>162276252
It doesn't matter if you read this upside down the paneling is that bad

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>>162280815
Here's an example from a shoujo. The speech bubbles should guide you through the page.

>>162280625
The narrow panels in the top half of the page make me feel somewhat claustrophobic; that's probably the intended effect - the black-haired character's personal space is being invaded. The other girl might not be usually annoying, but right now the brunette wants to be left alone.

>>162251433
two pages fit side by side on your typical desktop monitor, unless you're reading in vertical orientation

>>162245594
>comic

>>162273394
I assumed that space was for ads in the magazine and, since it would be wasted otherwise, changed to blog posts in the tanks

>>162273789
I was talking about Korean webtoons, not Japanese webcomics. They're not the same thing.

>>162280062
>>162280395
American comics are so goddamn ugly

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>>162283569
Not as ugly as their story line and plot or character development. Is there even any merit to Murica comic? I am not going to say that all of them are shit but most of them are, especially the popular ones

>>162284022
it's all capeshit's fault

>>162245594
Best case: You don't notice the paneling.