Almost 20 years later, and they managed to do worse.

Digital animation's clean look killed the fuzzy atmosphere of analogue animation. Plus CLAMP is god-tier at character design. Whoever did these new ones are shit-tier.

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>>162236070
That's not how animation works. Whether it's on cel or digital, what determines the quality of animation is:

1. Time
2. Budget
3. Talent

Now if you want to talk about the differences between cel and digital, here's what I would say:

Cel has the absolute advantage of real colors. Paint creates texture and variation that digital cannot match. However, cel is much harder to work with and much more expensive.

Digital has more effects available to it and certain effects are easier to pull off. You can also easily redraw or edit images with digital. However, digital lacks the color/texture of cel which makes everything look like it was colored using the paint bucket tool. Also, digital gradients look bad. Additionally, drawing digitally does not have the same level of naturalism in pressure and variation that you can get from real inks.

Combine these factors with the anemic budgets of current day anime and obviously most of it is going to look worse than its cel-era counterparts.

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>>162236070
>digital PC virgin
>hand painted celluloid Chad

>>162236070
Dear lord this is bad.

So are you guys ready for Kino CGI adventures?

>>162236748
you basically nailed it

>>162236070
That's not CGI right?

>>162240335

I'm just hoping we get the light novels translated into English again. If I remember correctly first book is ridiculously hard to find and going for a stupid amount of money online.

When exactly do I watch the movies at what point in the series?

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>>162238263
When all is said and done, though, I find modern anime much more visually appealing than older anime. It gets a bit tough to compare towards the end of the pre-digital era - late 90s stuff like Slayers Try is pretty gorgeous - but I certainly don't think 2010s anime looks worse than stuff from the 70s or 80s.

>>162240335
Please no. Don't do this to me.

>>162242588
That just means you're a philistine.

>>162236748
This is just a case of bad art direction than anything. There are plenty of digital anime with colorful clean look.

>>162242588
I guarantee that you started watching anime in the early 00s or later.

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>>162236070
Her hair looks like rubber pasta.

>>162243193
There's no shortage of bad looking anime in the 80s and 70s though. We can do some cherry picking and compare the best or the worst of each decade all days but it really doesn't say anything.

>>162243246
And there's no shortage of bad looking anime in the 90s, 00s and 10s.

>>162243224
I'd still fuck her.

>>162243271
Yes, and? My point is it's all preference and there's nothing wrong with him liking the look of digital coloring over cel.

>>162243312
You could argue that you like the look of puke and no could "objectively" say you're wrong.

Frankly, I think anyone who obsessively likes one type of thing over all others is a fucking fool and most likely has little experience outside of their safe zone.

>>162243355
Exactly, I don't condemn people liking the look of shit either.
And how did you draw out the conclusion that he obsessively likes digital over cel from
>I certainly don't think 2010s anime looks worse than stuff from the 70s or 80s

>>162242473
First movie after episode 30 or so, second movie after the end of the series.

>>162236070
Looks fine to me, take off the nostalgia googles please.

>>162243424
>I certainly don't think 2010s anime looks worse than stuff from the 70s or 80s
Objectively wrong, seeing as some of the very best animation in history comes out of 1980s Japan.

>>162243554
>objectively wrong

Not that anon, but then feel free to elaborate, which shows are you comparing to get to that conclusion?
Most people don't care to compare apples to apples and there's where this whole debate comes from.

>>162243554
First of all, it doesn't invalidate his argument at all. Just because some the very best are from that era doesn't mean the rest of them is as good as the best, nor does it say anything of the standard quality of 80s to compare to the 10s.
Some of the very best animation in history comes out of 10s Japan too. Or are you so on the cel dick that you can't appreciate modern anime?

>>162243617
You contrarian little shit. What shows are you comparing to get to your conclusion? Which 2010s anime is contender for some of the best animation ever created?

>>162243544
This. I personally like the original more, but the only complaint I can make about this is that the outlines are a bit too thick. It still manages to capture her personality well.

>>162243662
>Some of the very best animation in history comes out of 10s Japan too.
lmao not ever close
Modern anime is made on shoestring budgets compared to what was being thrown around in the 80s. Even single episode OVAs that barely anyone has heard of blows the hell out of most stuff produced nowadays. Have you not paid attention to the industry whatsoever? Animators are paid less than ever, there are fewer prominent animators than before and all of the old guard are complaining about how shit everything has become. You weren't even alive in the 80s, were you?

>>162243554
The stuff they put a lot of talent and effort into in that era did look very good, but those were the exception, not the rule. Most stuff was average or crap, and average or crap of the era was pretty bloody bad.

Stuff from the 2010s that they put effort and talent into looks great. Again, most stuff is average or crap, though. The best stuff from the 80s might arguably look better than the best stuff from the 2010s, but the average and crap stuff from the 2010s is definitely better than the average and crap from the 80s.

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>>162243704
>lmao
>mentioning budget as if it matters
>animators are less paid translate directly into worse animation
>old people not complaining about how everything has gone to shit for once
Yeah, get the fuck out of here.
You can pick any example of good 2010s from any prominent movies over the past 7 years and even TV series has plenty of sakuga filled series too. Stop being a dumb faggot.

>>162243722
Wrong. The standard level of 80s animation is head and shoulders above what's produced today for one simple reason: Japan was in an economic bubble from the mid 80s to the late 90s. There was an insane amount of money being poured into animation, which was at the height of its popularity. There's just no comparison. Today, the anime industry is struggling and its main workforce is dying off without much youngblood coming into it. Japan has been in an economic depression for over a decade now and industries like animation have taken a huge hit. Without the financial backing, modern anime just cannot compare to what was being done at the height of modern Japan's prosperity and anime's popularity.

>>162236070
Post some more screenshots, please.

>>162243816
>ironically posts a terribly drawn single tone image that directly is the result of lack of staffing and budget
Moron.

>>162243863
Oh fuck you got me.

>>162243843
So what was the average amount of budget each 80s show?
If budget is correlate with animation quality then I guess the average Western cartoon look way better than anime at any point of time I guess. Also for some reason, technology improvement doesn't translate directly into better animation either, strange how how that work.
Also anime nowadays is still doing fine financially. Every season they still manage to churn out 50-60 full budget anime.

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>>162236070
They should've kept the Ouran High designer.

>>162244062
Western cartoons typically have higher framerates, despite their terrible artstyles. But most of the budget goes towards their voice actors, which are paid much higher than Japanese VAs.

>Also for some reason, technology improvement doesn't translate directly into better animation either
What technologies have come out that somehow improve the ability of the animation director make key frames, the ability of the staff to draw more in-betweens and the coloring to be more sophisticated? That is based on skill, staff size and time allotted. Not technology.

>Also anime nowadays is still doing fine financially. Every season they still manage to churn out 50-60 full budget anime.
Budgets nowadays are far less and anime series typically run for 12 episodes rather than 50. Just google about how animators are treated in today's anime industry. They are underpaid and understaffed.

>>162244062
Theoretically, technology improvement could translate to better animation, but commercially there's more to gain from doing roughly the same quality cheaper.

>>162244158
>>162244198
Technology provides them with plenty of tools to better their product. Softwares for composition, coloring, effects, etc. Yes, there are even computer generated inbetween program nowadays. We also don't have to suffer the atrocious digital quality of the 80s when cel are processed into digital anymore. I would say there are plenty of benefits digital give you but in the end it's up to the artists to make use of their resources.

>budget is less
>a series run is also less in number of episodes
You know that could mean the amount of budget per episode is still remain the same or higher right?

I know plenty enough about being underpaid, doesn't mean anything either when back in the early day of anime, animators were running on pure autism and they still managed to produce art that look good to this day. Understaffed is not the real problem either, overworked is. My point is that technology and budget aren't a sure kill factor that would improve animation quality. Art takes time, talent and effort.

Anyway, we done with the original 80s animation is better than 10s yet? Unless you have seen the majority of 80s and 10s anime, both their worst, their mediocre and their best and make detail comparisons between the 2, then draw out a conclusion of which one is better in average, then we can really discuss anything. Otherwise it would be just shitflinging and meaningless examples.

>>162244527
>Softwares for composition, coloring, effects, etc.
You need to be more specific.
>Yes, there are even computer generated inbetween program nowadays.
Source? Source of any being used for professional works?
>You know that could mean the amount of budget per episode is still remain the same or higher right?
But it isn't.
>doesn't mean anything either when back in the early day of anime, animators were running on pure autism and they still managed to produce art that look good to this day.
Anime in the 60s and 70s did not look nearly as good.
>Understaffed is not the real problem either
Yes, it is.
>overworked is
That's a direct consequence of being understaffed, moron.
>My point is that technology and budget aren't a sure kill factor that would improve animation quality.
They are two of four major factors. Time is the third factor. Skill is the fourth factor, but at a professional level means less than budget, staff and time.
>Anyway, we done with the original 80s animation is better than 10s yet?
I don't know. Are you still being a clueless moron? Seems like it to me.
>Otherwise it would be just shitflinging and meaningless examples.
You only call my entire breakdown of the situation meaningless because it goes against your narrative and you don't even understand the subject in the first place. You're full of shit and you don't even know the first thing about the industry, economic climate or what goes into animation.

>>162242588
There's been a dearth of good character designs for over a decade now. I worry what trends will follow in the 20s and 30s.

And they could have retained some of the "fuzzy" or "warm" quality to the frames like we had with cels. Everything got too damned clean and sterile at some point in the 00s.

>>162243843
>Japan was in an economic bubble from the mid 80s to the late 90s.
The bubble popped in the early 90s you goof.

>>162243843
That's a fucking lie.

No 80's animation can match KyoAni's current quality level.

Also look at how many anime we have per season, it is a lot more than what they used to have before.

>>162244691
>t. read the wikipedia article for 2 seconds
The effects weren't felt until 1995 and it didn't start really impacting most industries until after that.
>b-b-b-but the bubble popped in 1991! I read it on wiki!
Yes, but the crash was the start of a decline. It's not an instant occurrence, it takes time to ripple through the economy. Just go look at the data if you want to try and talk about it.

>>162236070
This is fucking awful. I suspect that there's always some embezzlement in the funding everytime an anime is remade (see: Sailor Moon).

>>162243554
Akira was and still is amazing, but I'd say the then-young animators in the 80s truly hit their stride in the 90s to make really great work, some of them which were highly influential like Satoru Utsunomiya's work in Gosenzosama Banbanzai and Shinya Ohira in The Hakkenden.

>>162243843
There's also now a lack of OVAs, which could get bigger budgets. And the current trend has a lot of moé-characters with disappearing facial features and puffy pink cheeks. The skin colors have also been bleached compared to the 70s and 80s.

>>162244794
I know it didn't happen overnight, but this doesn't change the fact that the bubble was regarded as over in the early 90s, not late. Just pointing that out.

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>>162236070
come on now.

>>162243843
What proof do you have that it was easy to get funding for anime in the 80s? Even back then animators were paid poorly and drawing counts were low on average. The difference is that there's so much demand for anime productions today that it's putting more time pressure than ever on animators, and it doesn't help that average complexity of character designs have increased (Don't just take my word for it, even well regarded veteran animator Mitsuo Iso thinks modern designs are unnecessarily complicated)

>>162244957
>has never seen an in-between

Anyone who has been watching anime since the 1980's knows that the average quality of animation has dropped considerably. Hell, most people on /a/ nowadays have seen only a handful of shows pre-dating the 1990's (if any at all) and even less have watched any anime from the 1970's or before.

>inb4 newfags try to argue

>>162244656
>Softwares for composition, coloring, effects, etc.
Adobe After Effect, Photoshop, Flash are the first 3 come to my mind, there are others too of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX9mmKX2-7U
Here's some computer generated in-between. Pretty sure no studio has implemented this yet but in the future, maybe there will be. The point is, improvement of technology can help artists create better product if they make use of it. Again, it's up to the artists to make the best out of their resources, that goes for both budget and technology. Bigger budget doesn't make for better animation, same goes with better technology.
I still haven't seen your budget figure for a 80s anime episode. Keep saying it isn't, maybe I'll believe it.
>That's a direct consequence of being understaffed, moron.
But that's wrong you retard. Art takes times and effort, problem is these days studios take on too much work that they are incapable of handle. They are made to work on multiple projects with shitty scheduling. If the real problem is understaffed then when will the problem be solved? Hire more staffs? That just increase the number of anime per season, just look at the fact that the industry is still growing bigger days by days and yet understaffed is still a problem. If overworked and underpaid are solved and each studio only work on 1 or 2 projects at the same time, less number of anime per season, that would mean more quality to be seen in each product.

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>>162245035
Absolutely.

>>162245035
>did i fit in yet

>>162244656
>You only call my entire breakdown of the situation meaningless because it goes against your narrative and you don't even understand the subject in the first place. You're full of shit and you don't even know the first thing about the industry, economic climate or what goes into animation.
Good job mister shit for brain for completely missing my point. Your entire breakdown is meaningless because none of the factor you wrote is a guaranteed factor for good animation, thus your argument of big budget and popularity of the anime scene in the 80s mean better animation is shit because it simply doesn't work that way. Hollywood is big and popular, overflowing with money yet why do people complain the Hollywood movies of today is worse than it was?
In the end, if you want to compare animation to animation then fucking compare that. Don't bring budget, time, staffs, popularity, or anything into the equation BEFORE comparing animation.

>>162236070
>This looks like shit

No. Tomoyo in the OVA was great than subpar.

>>162244656
Here is an example of something actually worth arguing compare to your "breakdown"
>>162245068

>>162244978
>that average complexity of character designs have increased

This I find puzzling, is it in regards to clothing? Because the facial features on a whole seem to become less and less focused on.

>>162245216
Costume design is a big issue, but I've seen animators mention eyes and hair too.

>>162245043
Those aren't computer generated in-betweens. He just drew four or so layers and the program played them back.
>Bigger budget doesn't make for better animation
A bigger budget allows for better animation.
>I still haven't seen your budget figure for a 80s anime episode. Keep saying it isn't, maybe I'll believe it.
Denial is the only strategy you have at this point.
>Art takes times and effort
Which is split among staff. Are you actually retarded? Drawing, animation, coloring and everything else is given to various staff members in order to increase work efficiency. You're a fucking moron!

>>162245258
Ok, so I basically loved characters back when they had outrageous hair, but the actual animation for the hair was very simplistic?

>>162245435
Not quite, it's just that modern hair drawings tend to have more strands and are less rounded which is harder to draw.

>>162236070
Wait are you fucking kidding me OP? The OVA looks honestly great, seriously kill yourself.

>>162245435
That other guy is full of shit. The only thing that got more complicated were pupils, which I have seen animators actually complain about. Other than, older character designs tended to be more varied and the actual animation more often used multi-tone coloring. Not to mention the anatomy tended to be more realistic.

>>162245408
Oh so you are blind too, no wonder. He drew a few layers and the program generated frames between those layers.
>bigger budget allows for better animation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyno281gvHw
Here's an example of movie budget animation.
I see that you are a disabled person, in both body function and brain function so I will rest my case here. I'd feel sorry for bullying the handicapped.

>>162245535
Oh yeah, and completely unnecessary if you ask me.

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budget is everything. you can make things look good with money.

>>162245593
>He drew a few layers and the program generated frames between those layers.
Wrong.
>Here's an example of movie budget animation.
That animation is atrocious and the art is low detailed while trying to compensate with CG effects. That's not even considered good for a TV production. Why are you doing this to yourself?

Have some good animation, newfag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4f9qlTylKk&t=5s

I'm really disappointed in you. I can't believe someone as inexperienced and unwitting as you is trying to argue about this subject. You're just plain daft.

>>162245698
Did you know One Punch Man was produced with the same amount of budget as the shittiest 12 episodes anime of this season (whatever that one is)?
An industry fact: TV series budget is relatively the same across all anime.
>>162245771
>Wrong!
>missed the point of the example completely
Wow, solid and flawless counter point, I feel ashamed for myself for even existing. I'm so sorry I even dare to think of speaking up against you.

>>162245861
animation budget != anime budget

>>162245593
>Here's an example of movie budget animation.

It looks decidedly underwhelming.

>>162236070
>Anime then
>Anime now
Really makes you think.

>>162246132
It was supposed to be a counter point to bigger budget = better animation you dunce. If you weren't a complete newfag you would know that that fight was used extensively as an example of DEEN QUALITY.

>>162246405
You just keep shitting up this thread. Budget directly affects animation. You think these people work for free? The amount of time that animators get and the amount of budget they have to work with to pay animators for man hours directly impacts animation quality. Wow, you retard.

>YO BRO I'M GOING TO MAKE AKIRA ON A SHOESTRING BUDGET
>HEY DID YOU MIYAZAKI'S NEXT MOVIE IS GOING TO HAVE A BUDGET OF 1,000円

>>162246405
>If you weren't a complete newfag you would know
Oh, the irony.
That fight isn't well animated, but it is not QUALITY in the slightest. Do you even know what QUALITY means? The fight generally used for showcasing DEEN QUALITY is the one from the f/sn tv anime, not the movie.

>>162246544
He proved that the budget of a movie didn't affect that shitty animation at all. The whole budget was spent in a CGI fight. How much more do you need for decent animation? Wasn't CG supposed to be cheap?

>>162246613
>Wasn't CG supposed to be cheap?
It's cheap when you start reusing assets which is how it's normally used, but you can spend a lot on it because CG animators aren't passionate enough about their work to work for pennies, so movie CG budgets tend to get high. Still looks like shit compared to hand drawn animation, though.

ITT: Born in le wrong generation retards

>>162246613
>He proved that the budget of a movie didn't affect that shitty animation at all.
Cite the animation budget
>The whole budget was spent in a CGI fight.
Source

>>162246682
You seriously were born after the 1990s?

>>162246596
Look at 0:08 to 0:21.
>not that QUALITY fight gif at all
>the fight isn't well animated, not QUALITY in the slightest
Oh I'm sure this isn't QUALITY too.
http://abload.de/img/fa11460obkrk.gif
Do you even know what QUALITY means?

>>162246760
This one is QUALITY, the UBW one is not. Using slightly undetailed models while in motion does not consistute QUALITY, just lazy animation (and even then, not always). Being vastly off-model in keyframes is.
If you can't even tell that the UBW one is low detail but on-model, while this one is completely off-model then I don't even know what to say.
Not to mention the fact that you tried to call someone else a newfag by quoting the wrong fucking scene. The one that always gets posted to laugh at DEEN is still the tv series one, newfriend.

>>162246873
>The one that always gets posted to laugh at DEEN is still the tv series one, newfriend.
Mate, people have mocked that awkward long cut of Archer and Lancer dashing around at each other in the UBW movie.

>>162246983
No, for the third fucking time, you are thinking of the TV series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yc7-YpOH7Q
Watch from 2:10. THAT is the cut that people always mock, not the UBW movie one, which was unimpressive but also not particularly bad.

>>162246757
That goes far than just "slight undetailed" model and that fight is exactly the one that was used. But ok, I'll concede the rest. My other point still stand.

>>162247063
That one is also among the one that was used to mock DEEN.

>>162247063
That one's been mocked too, but that is no long cut. The cut starting from 7 seconds here>>162245593 is the one from the movie that's brought up too as an example of QUALITY. Surely you would've seen people post screencaps and zooms of that cut if you're not new.

>>162245936
Oh so 80s anime budget =/= animation budget.

Just give it up, retard.

>>162236070
I was under the impression that this was shitty chink rips with heavy filtering and upscaling. Do you have some evidence to the contrary OP?

>>162243554
I'm sure you haven't even watched 50 series from that decade.

>>162236070
>technology
>when anime is still mostly hand drawn except for complex mechanical props
this isn't 3d animation, anon

>>162244982
>any bad, off-model or otherwise strange-looking drawing is an inbetween
I hate this meme.