What does /a/ think of Utena? Was most of the symbolism masturbatory

Its not my favorite anime but it's definitely the one that's made me think the most and rewatch key scenes the most after completion.

I'm still kind of surprised something like this received enough popularity for there to be a dub.

I'm still not sure which symbolic scenes are important. This is Ikuhara "the bento box represents the entire show", after all.

I liked it when I watched it, but I'd probably be more critical if I were to revisit it. It's far too long, for one, and there simply aren't enough good ideas to sustain its length. The repetitiveness which you could argue adds to its fairytale-like storytelling doesn't suit itself to such a length either. It also tends to fall apart on the visual front; I think Ikuhara's visual language is strong but he borrows too much from Dezaki and it simply doesn't "move" well. I don't know why Ikuhara and co. don't just commit to feature filmmaking. Adolescence shows that a good movie isn't too far out of reach for them, and it's a better format.

>>161899960
>borrows too much from Dezaki
There's no such thing.

>>161899557
I think you should stop making these constant fucking bait threads you mentally obsessed freak.

>>161900334
To each their own, I find him pretty outdated.

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>>161900394
His influence is still literally visible in current anime though? I don't see how you can call a directorial style outdated.

>>161900444
He was popular during a time when it was most fashionable to "animate" via putting as much as you can into a single frame (his painted up stills being a sort of culmination of that). That's sorta what I mean by outdated, with respect to Utena I think it would have benefitted more from letting the characters emotions speak for themselves through movement rather than through dramatic storyboarding.

Can someone remind me what the point of the Black Rose arc was again?

>>161899557
I watched this as a kid on foxkids. I had no idea what was going on, but damn that scene where her nigger friend stabs her in the back was shocking.

>three flashback stock footage episodes

>>161900978
And the third one is the best recap episode of all time.

>>161901036
What an achievement!

>>161900704
Being the only good arc

>this flower means she is a slut
>utena having sex means she is pure
I can't wait for Ikuhara's next masterpiece.

>>161899960
mostly this.

>>161900652
>characters emotions speak for themselves through movement rather than through dramatic storyboarding
You know, this takes a significant BUDGET. Utena obviously did not have this for most the the show. You can't just say, "have more animation!" without there being more money in the first place.
You can even see this shit with Dezaki works, things he directed for TV, vs. OVA.
It all comes down to budget.

>>161901910
Somewhat. I said I'd like to see Ikuhara make a move to film instead of TV partially because of that reason. Besides, how would you know Utena's budget? From what I've heard TV anime costs more or less all the same whether it looks fantastic or shitty.

>>161902413
>three recap episodes
>multiple Nanami episodes full of QUALITY
If not a lack of buget, low effort.

>>161902483
Exactly, it could be caused by any number of different things. I think it's silly to say "well they had no money so it can't be helped".

>>161902542
I'm sure if they had a higher budget, this wouldn't
have been the case though, don't kid yourself.

>>161902576
Oh if anime expert anon is sure then it must be the case

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>>161902662
What the fuck you don't have to be an 'anime' expert to know that high budgets = higher quality animation.

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>>161899557
Revolutionary Girl Utena (少女革命ウテナ) is truly the Neon Genesis Evangelion (新世紀エヴァンゲリオン) of the Puella Magi Madoka Magica (魔法少女まどかマギカ) genre.

>>161902741
Shut the fuck up Touga

>>161902722
There are a ton of different factors that go into animation quality

>>161899557
Overrated imo.

Only nostalgia fags like it

Utena signaled the downfall that the Japanese economy crash in the 90's and is responsible for the moral degradation of its society

It's my favorite anime of all time. I'm almost done with my first rewatch of it, and it still blows me away.

>>161902791

What are you gonna do, drown my cat?

>>161899960
I have to disagree with you.

Ikuhara really is at his best when he has a lot of time to develop characters and themes. The repetition might seem boring, but it does serve to build on the themes of the show (that Akio is stuck in childhood, repeating the same time period over and over). Not to mention that the show didn't have the greatest budget--the repetition essentially killed two birds with one stone. And I don't know about you, but I got pretty excited each time the ZETTAI UNMEI MOKUSHIROKU increased in intensity.

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>>161900394
>Dezaki
>outdated

It's OK in a "the plot is a vehicle for the visuals" kind of way.

>>161903435
I'd say he appears to be at his best given that the number of episodes seems to correspond to the quality of his shows, but all three of his originals have their fair share of problems so I'm more inclined he just can't manage a show well. He's creative and has cool ideas, so put a leash on him, don't give him more room to waste resources

>>161900652
>putting as much as you can into a single frame (his painted up stills being a sort of culmination of that)

There's much more to Dezaki than those stills. They're certainly one of his hallmarks, but it's nowhere near everything the man had to offer.

>>161903638
Didn't mean to imply that's all he was

What's with all these Utena threads lately? Why Utena specifically?

>>161903435
This. Utena's movie honestly strips away most of what I love about the series.

>>161900704
The Black Rose arc was pure character development. It didn't advance the plot, and frankly I'm not sure whether any of it really happened at all. That's what makes it the weakest arc of the show. But the depth it added to the characters was worth the plot stagnation, in my opinion.

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>>161902483
The Nanami episodes were the best, you fool.

>>161903216
I genuinely think Utena was greatly improved on rewatch.
There's so much foreshadowing it's insane.

>>161903754

I'm just rewatching Utena and wanted a thread. This is my first thread on it though.

>>161903909
I never said they weren't great, it's just that they were noticeably plagued by QUALITY.

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>>161903754
>Why Utena specifically?
Maybe because of the 20th anniversary? People are rewatching it, as I did too.

>>161903754

It also got a manga epilogue. Anyone read it?

Isn't this the show where the Poo in the loo "rapes" his sister.

>>161899557
anon, masturbation is never nonsense

>>161904096
so far there is just one
utena turned into a prince

>>161902542
Utena clearly had a pretty low budget. That was the main reason for the heavily repeated animation. But, Utena also clearly had people working on it who actually cared about what they were working on. The movie proved that given a budget, they could make something visually astounding. The only thing impeding them was their budget.

Utena is one of the greatest examples of a show that made amazing things out of a minimal budget. They found a way to make it work, even with their shit-tier budget. It still looks gorgeous (if not as gorgeous as the movie). It still has well-developed characters ad themes, as well as a coherent plot. The budget was really only an impediment to the animation.

>>161904347
What's your source?

>>161904096
Where?

>>161904377
Why do you continue to act intentionally stupid?

>>161904426
So you have none?

>>161904458
I'm not even that anon, but if you think they had so much stock footage/recaps because they had a surplus of money, you're very ignorant.

>>161904517
Like I said, there are any number of things besides budget which can cause those, so let's not blindly say it was one thing or another without even a shred of evidence.

I think the biggest flaw of the Utena TV anime was that it never explained what the fuck Touga's problem was. It was explained in the movie that he was raped, but in the series he was always just kind of a dick for no reason.

>>161904599
Touga wasn't a bad guy though. Honestly, I liked him a lot at the end.

>>161904555
That literally makes no sense. Reused stock footage isn't an artistic choice, although Ikuhara definitely is able to wield it into something like that. Don't be fooled, he's just that good of a director.

>>161904756
So you think those things could ONLY have been caused by budget?

>>161904782
No? All I'm saying is Utena wasn't the most financially sound production, it's evident because of all the things I've listen prior.

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>>161902938
>There are a ton of different factors that go into animation quality

The biggest flaw in Utena's animation (given its TV budget) was its repetition. In terms of composition and conveying emotion, Utena is a 10/10. It reminds me of Prince Achmed, especially in its use of silhouettes. It's a gorgeously composed series, especially for the budget it had.

>>161904833
All of the things you've listed prior seem more likely to indicate a problem with management or scheduling than anything concerning budget.
It could have been, sure, but stuff like:
>>161904897
>especially for the budget it had
is so annoying to hear when its budget isn't actually known.

>tfw you will never have contact with UFOs like Ikuhara

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>>161905013
wow dunno why that was horizontal

>>161903942
Speaking of rewatching. The first time, I skipped the previews, being afraid of spoilers. Now that I'm watching a second time, I'm watching the previews. Jesus Christ, the things Anthy says in them.

>it's nice having an older sibling!
>(in reference to Miki and Kozue) wow, those two siblings are close, aren't they?

Everything has a new, more sinister context. I might be enjoying my second viewing more than my first.

>>161904377
I don't have a source, but an abundance of repeated animation and recap episodes is usually an indicator of a lack of budget. I could be wrong, but I'm just using Occam's razor.

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>>161904627
I'm only in the middle of my second watch, but I remember leaving my first watching hating Touga. I felt that he had somehow wronged Nanami. We'll see how I feel after a second watching, though. My opinions might change. This is the kind of show that takes multiple watchings to fully understand.

And I really love Nanami.

Didn't Touga frame the green-haired guy for whatever reason to get him expelled?

>>161905316
My whole point is that it's not necessarily an indicator of budget problems. This is all wholly irrelevant to my original statement, but either way you shouldn't spread misinformation through statements like "it did well for the budget it had".

>>161905048
What is this from?

>>161904599
One of the writers actually confirmed that the same thing happened to him in the TV series as did the movie. It makes most of his behavior make sense.

>>161905624
The DVDs from Nozomi Entertainment came with these booklets with notes from every episode. Any true Utena fan will buy them. Or they'll buy the BluRays.

>>161905048
It reads like a light novel. "My Crushed Rejected Me But Aliens Turned Me Into An Anime Director!?"

>>161905653
I just wish it had been more apparent in the tv series. It really only appeared in the movie.

And I'm prone to pre-suppose child abuse (being a child of a victim). I just didn't see it.

>>161905048
haha what the hell

>>161902413

No thanks, I don't want another Mamoru Hosoda.

>>161905548

Saionji lost his shit and tried to attack her from behind. Touga figured something like that would happen and used it to his advantage (read: getting closer to Utena)

who could like utena?
she looks like a boy, LIKE A BOY!

>>161899557
New season of Utena is airing right now.

>>161907657
what

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>>161907042

It was originally planned for the series, but Touga's VA was busy with other things during the Black Rose arc so they didn't get the chance to put it in.

>>161907042
An obsession with power, sexual promiscuity, and regularly sleeping with an older man are the three biggest indicators. I've also seen people say this affected his relationship with Nanami.

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>>161907633

This boy sure has great legs and tits.

>>161906992

I want an Ikuhara light novel now. Penguindrum doesn't count.

>>161907722

>>161878730

>>161907983
ayy

>>161907936
>Penguindrum doesn't count.
Why not? Penguindrum is pretty good if you're not a speed-watching brainlet casual.

>>161902741
What is Utena about?

>>161909317
A revolutionary girl.

>>161909374
Tell me more.

>>161909435
Actually, the revolutionary girl is anime-only filler. The actual story is about a little purple monkey called "Chu-chu" and how he goes on bite-sized adventures. Here you can find an apt synopsis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW0eLi1Fjy4

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>>161909687
I knew there was something more to Chu-chu.

>>161909687
why is a monkey even purple

>>161899557
Would have been a masterwork if it didn't have the Nanami episodes.

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>>161909813
You're cute; thanks for humouring me. Have a free Chu-Chu.
>>161909859
Purple is the colour of magic and mysticism (amongst other stuff) and Chu-Chu is painted this way because he's the familiar of Anthy, who is a witch.

>>161909863
a man of taste at least

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>>161909863
>if it didn't have the Nanami episodes.

This show bored me to tears. Hated all the characters. Not entertaining in any way. I feel like people only like this show in order to feel smart. That, or they are a feminist who projects all their ideas onto the show and get pleasure from it that way,

>>161904034
Excited to buy the new blueray set!

>>161904347
This is a big reason why I prefer Utena over EVA, in the context of 'deconstructive' shows. The creative team executed a show with a ton of depth on a budget. Even the recap episodes (except the nanami one) are important.
Depending on who you ask, the EVA team either ran out of money or the team got sick of the project and it shows in the ending.

>>161899557
>Nonsence
wew lad

>>161911067
neither of them are "deconstructive" fucktard

>>161909863
Nanami episodes actually tell the story of Utena. The Shadow Girls provide commentary on what's going on in an episode. Nanami episodes provide commentary on the arcs as wholes and what's to come. The only one that seems to really be filler is the curry episode. All other Nanami episodes actually tell the story of Utena in a different way.

>>161910928
Anyone who understands this show can see that not everything this show says about gender politics is necessarily pro-feminism.

>>161899557
>Nasu: “Utena”‘s dialogue was sensitive and abstract, but the direction and art were all so vivid. The imagery of the shell representing the world was so powerful, it was like I’d seen an amazing work of art—that may be an exaggeration, but that feeling overcame me when I watched the first episode, and it got me hook line and sinker. The “Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku” stock sequence played, there was a battle, the ending theme played, and I thought with certainty, “This is a masterpiece. But it’d probably be impossible to explain how amazing it is to ten people and have all ten of them understand.” I think now that the people who hold this work in their heart forever are either the female viewers who likely share the same gender-related hardships, or the people who think “I want to create something, I want to express something”. Once you’ve been shown something like this, you can’t ignore it. It felt like peeping on someone’s secrets, like I’d seen something I shouldn’t have.

>>161911291
>Nasu: I didn't feel bad when Utena got raped.

>>161899557
most of it is totally necessary to read the basic narrative at all. If anything the rose is the only real masturbatory symbol at work, which is kind of ironic given it's one of the more common ones in the show.

Just marathoned this. Maybe I would have enjoyed it more if I didn't. As it goes on, it becomes slightly tiring. It overstays its welcome. I would have enjoyed this more if it were 2 cour. People just were so dishonest with their feelings to the point where it gets frustrating- which would be fine if it didn't happen so frequently. It's obvious and cliche where Himemia says "Utena-sama, the truth is.." "What?" "Nevermind..". This same drama and others are repeated several times. Several times of Nanami not saying anything about the incest despite acting angry. Do I really need to see her have implied with her brother 5 times? Isn't once or twice sufficient? For the time it aired it was very influential. The first 12 episodes of the show are great. Overall it was good.

>>161911224
And they suck.

>>161912019
>Several times of Nanami not saying anything about the incest despite acting angry.
Hey, almost like real life children reacting to real life sexually traumatic situations
Really makes you think.

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>>161912019
>Do I really need to see her have implied with her brother 5 times?
Yes

>>161912055
I wish that were true.

>>161905653
Although the TV series touched upon Touga’s younger days, the film goes into more details – the wound of Touga that was never directly depicted. In his younger days, Touga was a normal kid who enjoyed happy times with his friend Saionji Keiichi and his younger sister Nanami. However, he came to know his unfortunate fate from the time he was ordered by his parents to wear his hair long. His parents sold him to the Kiryuu family. Although he was an adopted son on the surface, the instinctive Touga knew what that meant. And in order to protect his younger sister, he accepted his lot. Being sold. We did not go into depicting what Touga’s parents obtained by going as far as selling their son. We would like you to think of it as a kind of metaphor. And Touga accepted in silence the sexual abuse from his new parents. His personality changed while he made a magnanimous show of enjoying the abuses in order to prevent his personality from splitting. The change took place in a spot so deep in his mind, that even those closest to him did not notice. Saionji and Nanami never noticed out of their innocence. And Touga never told his secret to anyone. It is said that a human being gains whatever he lost in exchange. So what did Touga gain in exchange at that point in time? It was the sense of alienation from being abused every night and seeing his innocent friend and sister during the day. The alienated self.

And it is out of this awareness of alienation that you come to obtain a higher humanity and sexual self-awareness. In the TV series, Saionji always felt that he was one step behind Touga. Although the two are more or less equal in terms of ability, what Saionji lacked was that sense of alienation.

-Enokido Youji

>>161912055
Nah, "sucking" doesn't describe those episodes. It does describe what Touga does to Akio's dick, though.

>>161907452
As if they are at all the same

>>161902741
I know you know this but you're unironically correct.

>>161911214
But Anno has literally said that Evangelion is a deconstruction of anime.

>>161911224
> The only one that seems to really be filler is the curry episode.

Not at all, that's mostly about Saionji's 'relationship' with Anthy.

>>161912019
Utena is unsatisfying when you first watch it, but gets better the more you rewatch it.

>>161899960
>but he borrows too much from Dezaki
Impossible, if Utena tried to borrow from Dezaki you'd have a Dutch plane every 3 seconds on average, and that doesn't happen in Utena.

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>More and more people are having a hard time digesting any shows longer than a 2-cour.

>>161916959
I mean, very few actually need that many episodes. It ends up being detrimental more often than not.

>>161917582
wrong

>>161919182
no ur wrong