I don't get it, why do people circlejerk around this shit?

Why have I been seeing this thread lately?

>>161736268
I saw a thread with a bunch of people praising it heavily a few days ago and just finished watching it today, it was meh.

How many episodes have you watched and can you tell us what it is you find unappealing?

>>161736451
I watched it all
It looked very pretty but the plot was paper thin post modern bullshit.

DUDE "REVOLUTIONIZE" THE WORLD WHATEVER THAT MEANS

>>161736513
May I acquire your gender, age and what language you watched it in?

>>161736222
Because unlike most anime it's progressive.

Have some recommended reading:
https://heroineproblem.com/2015/10/13/utena-and-the-four-horsemen-of-the-patriarchy-saionji-and-violent-control-through-abuse/

Maybe then you'll come to understand and appreciate the themes of Utena.

>>161736543
Male, 19, English for the first half and Japanese for the second.
What do the first two have to do with anything?

>>161736222
It's deeper and better than your favorite anime.

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>>161736598
>English
Stopped reading there.

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>>161736222
Looks like Utena was too deep for you, anon.
>>161736598
>watched an English dub
>can't appreciate Utena
Jesus fucking Christ, off you're self.

>>161736614
it has the exact same depth and quality as both my favourite anime and the greatest anime ever made

that being said I hate utena threads and no one on the internet should ever watch it

This anime is not deep, lets just get that out of the way. Its a mediocre shoujo series with a bit of symbolism and a half decent story but its full of shitty reused animation and bland characters. And the overarching plot is meaningless as well.

>>161736635
>>161736662

Not an argument. I like to give both a shot instead of blindly hating on the dub just because. They were both around equal quality anyway, Nanami's voice fit her character better in English due to how obnoxious it was.

>>161736614
It definitely isn't deeper than Death Note's manga unless you employ "the critic is the true artist" bullshit.

>>161736740
>not an argument
It literally is you dubfag. You haven't finished Utena. You were never watching it to begin with

>>161736740
crossboarder detected
abandon thread

>>161736837
If this is the best anyone can come up with I guess this series was really shit and I just wasted my time. Lesson learned, don't trust neo /a/s praise for anything before the year 2000. They'll trick themselves into thinking its highbrow just because its old.

>>161736873
Is the dubfag going to grade my arguments? Where can I subscribe to your blog?

>>161736873
Also, learn some fucking grammar before you have the audacity to take up my time kid. Respect your fucking elders. They know better than you.

They don't.

If you want to see an anime that people circlejerk around, see madoka magica, re:zero, or jojo.

>>161736598
the utena dub is the worst shit i've ever heard

>>161736873
Anime peaked as a medium around the year 2000 and the best series are within five years in both directions. If you don't know this it's because you haven't watched a lot of anime.

>>161736222
Because you consider any form of communication between people with a common interest a circlejerk.

>>161736998
not OP but I recently did a rewatch in it and it definitely nails the fairy tale atmosphere in a weird way.
>>161737016
2007 is more than 5 years away from 2000 anon.

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>>161736740
>crossboarder and not even trying to hide it
>that fucking spacing
>dubfag
>can't grasp Utena's themes
>relies on /a/ to pick what to watch instead of picking his anime alone
jesus

>>161736930
>Respect your fucking elders.
Embarrassing. Leave my thread.

>>161737046
2007 isn't the peak of the medium, it's just the last good year of anime.

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>>161737016
I agree but there's been tons of recent anime that just have had great production values. While you're right about peaking. The over-all quality nowadays is higher

>>161737089
Stay in school

>>161737146
>Over-all quality nowadays is higher
If you like CG and repetitive tropes, maybe.

>>161737368
Nah, just like shading and proper directing in my anime.

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>>161737417
>modern anime
>better shading and proper directing

>>161737368
overused tropes have always been a part of every heavily commercialized medium, and always will be. see: live action TV, pop-music, block buster movies, AAA video games.

>>161737551
Christ you're stupid

>>161737598
>Can't debate a point
>Resort to ad hominem

>>161737417
If you like shading you want to look to circa '00, when it was prevalent and didn't look like cel-shaded garbage.

>>161737594
Eva opened the door for an explosion of individualism in the medium that died out somewhere around 2010, now we just get cookie cutter series over and over.

Everyone is just attacking op without stating why they think it's a good show.

>>161738045
>>161736582

>>161737813
you act like there wasn't a lot of cookie cutter bullshit then, which is simply not true, the companies involved make money off of that stuff because that's what consumers buy. But the tropes don't last forever, and are either slowly replaced over time, or, as in the case of eva, something comes along that is both highly creative and successful, which changes the landscape all at once.

>>161738045
Maybe make a better thread next time then?

>>161738109
If you really think it would have made a difference you're a fool, yurifags always treat people who don't praise the shit they eat up like this.

>>161736222
>>161736332
It's for people who think anime can be "art". Also the people who see it as a "feminist" piece. I thought the story was shit.

Penguindrum is the anime that should be praised in its place.

>>161738312
>implying anime isn't art
is drawing art?
is music art?
is vocal performance art?
is writing art?
if all of the most basic components are art how is the whole not?

>>161736222
Most of the meme comes from ANN and Evageeks, /u/ was too dumb not to fall for obvious bait so they infected tumblr with it.

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Could she outsmart Light? What about Lelouch?

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>>161738312
Feminism and Akio cannot exist within the same story.

>>161738402
If all those parts are mediocre you end up with a mediocre product.

That's what anime is, not to mention it's something that many people worked on. Committees can't make art.

>>161738545
Most Utenafags claim it's feminist and about empowerment.

>>161738731
>Committees can't make art.
>Film can't be art
>Orchestrational performances can't be art

y i k e s

Your problem is that you think "art" is always synonymous with "good"

>>161738757
>Your problem is that you think "art" is always synonymous with "good"

No, art is subjective meaning it's both good and bad, depends on who sees it.

If a film was made by a single person, it approaches art. Maybe even made in the meme way of Dogme 95.

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>>161736222
It's fun, the soundtrack is unique and very stylish, the characters have great depth and many layers, the visuals are fantastic, specially later on.

Utena takes risks and isn't afraid to trick the viewer and make them feel a certain way just to pull the rug under them and re-contextualize the whole thing.

Take the first Arc climax, for exemple.
Utena loses Anthy to Touga, she gets depressed and starts dressing like a girl, but Wakaba slaps her and she decides to get Anthy back to "get herself back", i.e. fight Touga so she can show she isn't her toy or whatever.
I nice message, right? Hero fights bad guy and learn to "be herself", standard shit.
But how about Anthy? You known, the chick that is apparently a slave to all the people that own her, probably a sexual slave as well? What about her? Shouldn't Utena be fighting to save her from that slavery and not just to help full her own ego?
The "lesson" of the first season is a lie and it leds to the backstabbing that happens of the last two episodes.

Anthy/Utena/Akio might just be the most complex relationship in all of anime, even better than anything EVA, Madoka or whatever other shpw has to offer. The way they all seem to love, hate, and pity each other and themselves is so complex, it's tragic and mind-bending.

It also doesn't take itself too seriously, with things like the Nanami episodes.

Also, Episode 33 might just be the most genius piece of anime directing I've ever seen, it's crazy good.

>>161738731
just because something's not of high quality doesn't make it not art, that's just a lazy way of writing off things you don't like.

So am i to assume that you think medieval European cathedrals aren't art? because hundreds of people worked on those.
Even if you just look at one element, like the stained glass window, there were many people that worked on that: the artist that designed the window, the glass blowers that produced and colored the glass pieces, and the craftsmen that installed the glass into the frame, for example.

>>161738968
You have to learn to separate craft from art.
Most animators for example are craftsmen. Artists are a whole different breed.

>>161737551
Wow in retrospect that last frame just blows 2011 out of the water. So much more thoughtful and appropriate

I can't wrap my head around Anthy's character

She was playing along this whole time and people weren't just spontaneously losing their shit about her, but she was actually that good at passively fucking with them

But to what end? She was willing to take the blades for Akio until Utena gave her the courage to move on but what would her desired outcome be if Utena never gathered the strength to open her coffin?

Asking because it doesn't feel like she was acting in Akio's interest

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>>161737813
Literally nothing wrong with cellshading

>>161739060
I wasn't saying that everyone that worked on the project was necessarily and artist, just that many people worked on it and it resulted in a work of art, which I think addresses the post I responded to

>>161738757
>>>Orchestrational performances can't be art
They're generally composed by only one person.
And the one that decides how to interpret it is the conductor, one person.

>>161739372
last I checked, 1+1=2

>>161739398
The conductor is only there because the composer can't realistically conduct all the performances of its work.
He only exists as a substitute.

>>161739439
He still plays an important role as you admitted in your first part

Also downplaying the role of the musicians themselves, even if they're playing another's creation, in creating art is pretty silly.

>>161739466
You're arguing with the guy that doesn't understand Utena.

>>161739466
The musicians aren't creating art, they're reading a score according to the instructions someone else gives them.
There's very little creativity and musicianship involved in performing in an orchestral ensemble, just a great amount of technique in your instrument.

>>161739204
I think she originally wanted to gain Dios back until Utena came around, then you can see her relationship with Akio start to shift?

>>161739572
>there's little
so not zero then, way to undermine your own argument per-emptivaly

>>161739439
going off what is said here:
>>161739466
a score is inherently limited in the degree to which it can represent the music as the composer imagined it, so each member of the ensemble, conductor included, is performing their interpretation of that image, based on what is written in the score

>>161739669
>so each member of the ensemble, conductor included, is performing their interpretation of that image, based on what is written in the score
No, each member of the ensemble is performing the interpretation of the conductor's image, that's basically the reason why the conductor exists.
You have no musical input as a player in an orchestra.

>>161739204
Anthy was basically stuck in an abusive relationship. She obviously loved the memory of her brother and kept trying for his sake even though he treated her like shit. She knew nothing else but him and even if it hurt, it was a familiar kind of hurt which she preferred to the scary outside world. At least that's my interpretation.

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>>161739204
>Asking because it doesn't feel like she was acting in Akio's interest
She was.
In Dios conversation with Utena, it's established that Dios lost much of his power when he "fell" (or sealed it before turning so as to stop Akio from getting it), so they are basically trying to get his power back. What they are gonna do with that power is never stated by it's implied that Anthy thinks Akio will "heal her", but Akio obviously doesn't like care about that during the finale (at least not in the sense that he would risk himself to do it).

Anthy and Akio's relationship is akin to a abusive couple, they both hate and love each other, and also slightly hate themselves for not being the person that the other wished they were and dragging each other down (which is shown in a both humanizing and infuriating scene when Anthy and Akio are ridding in his car as she screams in pain, he says "The World is the one hurting you, Anthy" showing his frustration with himself for failing her and how blind he is to the fact HE is the one hurting her). So they behave passive-agressively with each other. For exemple, Anthy will patiently have sex with him but will refuse to emote at all during the sex, and Akio starts to rub Utena's infactuation with him in her face once he realizes she cares.

If Utena "failed" (which she tecnically did), they would just try again (which seems to be Akio's real/subconcious objective, keep the duelist game going forever) and try again some other way like with Mikage.

It's slightly complicated because these characters all have a stated goal and a subconcious goal they are working towards are all time.

>>161739726
the players aren't the conductor's puppets, a good conductor, working with a professional orchestra, will control the big picture while allowing the players the agency to play the music the way they understand it.

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>>161736222
People often praise it for DEEP SYMBOLIC PRESENTATION, and while it's definitely there (not just very complex), I liked other, more minor aspects of the series. It's pretty well directed and simple things like environment designs and especially clothing were to my liking. Above all, it's different and considerably unique in its presentation. I struggle to come up with any other anime that's just like Utena, and I think that's why people put it on a pedestal.

Of course it's all opinions though. Liking Utena requires you can tolerate Shoujo and highly episodic nature of the series, which many find off-putting. There isn't an objective answer to this, but that would be my take.

>>161739890
Sure thing mate, a great conductor will leave every single player out of a 30+ man orchestra play the music the way they see fit.

>>161740001
I was talking about professionals, so, pretty much so.

you can strawman all day, but it won't make you any less wrong

>>161739978
To me, the episodic nature isn't the problem. I like many shows with episodic self-contained stories. My main problem with Utena is that it's extremely formulaic and repetitive, from both a technical standpoint (like 5 minutes of recycled animation per episode, without counting EDs) and a storytelling standpoint. It was especially bad during the Black Rose arc.
>x has trivial high schooler problem
>YOUR ONLY OPTION IS TO REVOLUTIONIZE THE WORLD
I just don't buy it.

>>161740139
You can stop quoting the English dub buddy, for the love of god you haven't seen Utena yet. So go watch it right now

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>>161740180
>You can stop quoting the English dub buddy
But I'm not. I watched it with subs. I'm not op.

>>161740209
I don't buy it

>>161740139
>I just don't buy it.

Trivial high school problems more or less universally seem world shattering to high schoolers.

>>161740139
The repetitiveness is driving a point, and frankly because it's rather trying to convey a fairy tale and emotions linked to it the actual "plot" is mostly irrelevant. None of it makes sense taken at face value, they are even mostly inside buildings that are architecturally impossible. But yes, I do understand where you are coming from. I guess I'm one of those people that finds recycled footage strangely comfy rather than irritating, like henshin scenes from older magical girl- shows.

>>161740132
No, you're just talking about some musicians you've seen in some anime most probably, because you have no clue what you're talking about.
Real musicians listen to their conductor, and don't play anything that wasn't said to them or isn't in the score.
There's creativity and musicianship in interpretating music, but when you're in a conducted environment, all of that falls under the conductor jurisdiction, the players are just that, players.

Same thing in movies or pretty much anything, even if the final project has hundreds of people involved, the people that actually have creative input are always a selected few.

And I'm not going against my point here because I never made that point to begin with, I'm not the guy you first replied to, I'm just arguing because thinking that in an orchestra every single person has a say in how they'll perform the piece is ludicrous.

>>161736222
Ignore anyone saying it's progressive or feminist or whatever. The real themes are about societal expectations and the danger of fitting in pre-existing personality/attitude/belief roles. These people are just projecting because the arc and dynamic of the main characters loosely relates to feminist ideals in superficial ways.

>>161740315
>I cannot enjoy a series if it's labeled feminist
Your insecurity is showing.

>>161740346
That poster is right though. It's the same with idiots shilling the show as yuri. The movie and the TV need to be regarded as two entirely separate works, yet the Utena fandom seems to think of both the movie and TV as the same exact thing.

>>161740232
He's right, the last post I made in this thread was

>>161739204

Because I figured a more direct post about what left me feeling meh would get posts from people who could actually describe their feelings on the show without insulting me like a child.

>>161740346
I have no problems with anything being feminist, but saying Utena is feminist is just a flat out misinterpretation of the series that is not only reductive (in the sense that interpreting it in this way makes the events of the show less profound, and not in the sense that feminism is a less valid point), but also tends to derail discussion of the series to a political direction we're all tired of.

>>161736222
>>161736222
utena is mother of stevan jewlesbotrans verse

>>161740475
Get out of here ESL

>>161740384
I wasn't exactly refuting the interpretation though, it's just that he doesn't specify is he referring to the tv or movie and the fact the post literally starts with criticizing the feminist take which seems largely unrelated to the rest of the post and exists just for the sake of it.

>>161738312
>It's for people who think anime can be "art". Also the people who see it as a "feminist" piece
I go on /pol/ and I didn't think it was feminist at all. If anything it's basically a story about people who pretend to play a role in order to be perceived a certain way by others and the audience while they're extremely contradictory on the inside with the conclusion being a coming of self and accepting that you can't hide behind a visage anymore and try to do at least some good before you meet your fate.

>>161740306
all I'm saying is that the conductor cannot micromanage the exact length, volume, and pitch of every note and rest played by every member of the ensemble. Each member individually interprets their part, and if anyone is playing it in a way that is sufficiently outside the conductor's vision for the piece, that's when it gets changed.

If most people in an orchestra have no agency at all, why do orchestras still have people? we've had robots that can play most orchestral instruments for decades.

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>>161740384
>shilling the show as yuri

Just post this when you see that.

>>161740609
>>If most people in an orchestra have no agency at all, why do orchestras still have people? we've had robots that can play most orchestral instruments for decades.

Because synthesized sounds still sound like shit when compared to a real performance, and robots playing real instruments will probably be too expensive.
That without saying that talking to another human being so he can adjust to your demands is still faster and easier than having to learn how to interact with a robot, and will probably always be.

>>161740549
Oh, my bad then. I was referring to the series. I just made that post because of previous posts like >>161736582, but I didn't want to backlink.

>>161740346
Wait, that's not even remotely what that guy said. He said that calling Utena "feminist" isn't exactly correct and cheapens it. He didn't say "that's feminist anime I can't watch it".

>>161740728
considering most professional orchestras pay their musicians a salary, and you only have to buy a robot once, I wonder about the cost aspect.

The second part is exactly the point, it''s easier and less time consuming to spread the creative burden over several people.

>>161740404
Stay in school

>>161739204
She was just cynical and wanted to fuck everyone over to help cope it's her own suffering. She thought that she was doomed to be a slave forever as she had been for the last few centuries, so she became really nihilistic.

>>161736222
It was a lot of westerners first exposure to anime and, feeling very insecure about liking a cartoon/something for kids, they wrote endless essays about how it was totally progressive and super deep to try and justify enjoying "something for kids".

Quick question to everyone in this thread. Should I watch other critically acclaimed shojo anime before watching Utena? Will I be able to better appreciate it if I do?

>>161741154
All that will help with doing is building up your tolerance for recycled animation and sequences

>>161741154
Rose of Versailles and Oniisama e are good starting points.

People who claim that Utena is similar to ROV in a large capacity are memeing, but the aesthetics and directorial style are somewhat similar.

Oniisama e on the other hand is much more similar since it has plot elements and themes that are similar to Utena in addition to the directorial style.

>>161741215
in other words, watch haruhi s2 a few times

>>161738545
It can in a story where he's treated as the villain

>>161736222
>Nasu: “Utena”‘s dialogue was sensitive and abstract, but the direction and art were all so vivid. The imagery of the shell representing the world was so powerful, it was like I’d seen an amazing work of art—that may be an exaggeration, but that feeling overcame me when I watched the first episode, and it got me hook line and sinker. The “Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku” stock sequence played, there was a battle, the ending theme played, and I thought with certainty, “This is a masterpiece. But it’d probably be impossible to explain how amazing it is to ten people and have all ten of them understand.” I think now that the people who hold this work in their heart forever are either the female viewers who likely share the same gender-related hardships, or the people who think “I want to create something, I want to express something”. Once you’ve been shown something like this, you can’t ignore it. It felt like peeping on someone’s secrets, like I’d seen something I shouldn’t have.

>>161741154
I watched Utena first and I liked it anyway. To be honest, >>161741215 sounds like he's joking but that's actually true. What annoyed me the most on Utena was the repetition and recycling.

>>161736614
>deeper and better than Eva

Not a chance in hell

>>161741389
Source?

>>161741488
https://wakameparadise.wordpress.com/2017/08/20/nasu-ikuhara/

>>161741389
>>Nasu:
stopped reading there

>>161741389
>Nasu
>subtly nominating himself as legit "creator"
What the fuck

>>161741154
Not really. Also I guess, most critically acclaimed shoujo are rather crappy

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>>161741389
>Nasu

>>161740139
>>x has trivial high schooler problem
>>YOUR ONLY OPTION IS TO REVOLUTIONIZE THE WORLD
>I just don't buy it.

It's called a microcosm my man, it's not meant to be taken at face value.

>>161741148
I seriously doubt many people had Utena as their first anime. It didn't air on any major TV network, and it spent years with only the first 13 episodes licensed without much availability of fansubs for it at the time.

>>161740622
But that's the patriarchal construct making her think this way. She chooses Anthy once she's free.

you know what fuck it. if OP doesn't get it, he's a pleb who doesn't deserve to. utena and all great shows are about if you truly understand the emotions and ideas its portaying, and no analysis or "explanations" can force to to truly understand those things. all it'll do is confuse the idiots or even worse, make them think they get it.

>>161741148
>It was a lot of westerners first exposure to anime
t. your asshole

>>161743035
t. brainlet in denial

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>>161736222

>>161743614
How autistic do you have to be to send e-mails to random somewhat famous people asking if they like anime?

>>161743614
>knows Utena but doesn't even remember Miyazaki's name
A strange combo

>>161736740
>It definitely isn't deeper than Death Note's manga

holy shit...

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>>161736740
>your favorite anime
>Death Note
>the definite teenage bait series

>>161744148
>>the definite teenage bait series
thats not code geass

>>161744288
I think that's overestimating Geass. In my country you could literally buy Death Note merch from the closest tiniest shit store. While Geass might be also proficient meme material it's no where as close in status and volume as Death Note and their obnoxious normalfag teenage fans that just got into anime.

>>161736740
>isn't deeper than Death Note's manga
Out of curiosity, how the fuck is Death Note "deep"? How do you define the term to arrive into that conclusion?

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>>161736222
>>161736332

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>>161743614
Truly a man of utmost patrician tastes

>>161744783
>1D woman who exists only as a sequence of words
I have a new fetish.

>>161736713
>a bit

Confirmed 2deep4u

The 2deep4u to rule all 2deep4us

>>161741472
>better than eva
Both are at the same level for me, they shine in different areas
>deeper than eva
Absolutely. If you think Eva's deeper you weren't paying enough attention. No, I'm not a "Eva isn't actually deep is just le empty symbolism XD" fag either.

>>161736222
I don't get it either, Utena is overrated and pretentious shit

>>161745468
>pretentious

How?

>>161745284
>Eva isn't actually deep is just le empty symbolism XD
But this is mostly true though. Besides some really straightforward psychological symbolism most of the series is just empty.
>>161745695
>How?
It's a buzzword people use for series that try to tell them something.

>>161736513
>I don't get it
>WHATEVER THAT MEANS
I take it you scrapped by highschool english on sparknotes and the skin of your teeth. It's not even especially "deep" if anything it's overly blunt in beating its audience over the head with all its metaphor and symbolism, but apparently it's still over your head. I don't imagine reading comprehension was your strongest section on the SAT or ACT either.

>>161740139
>It was especially bad during the Black Rose arc.
Utena is a character based show. The point of Black Rose arc was to explore secondary characters and by doing this better establish the core characters (student council). For example eps. 19-20 do excellent job of presenting what Wakaba is about, and by extension what kind of person Saionji is, and neatly tie that to Anthy's passive-aggressive fuckery.

>>161740384
Let's be fair, Ikuhara definitely counted on certain elements of the TV show's reading carrying over to the movie, even if only to set up the basic vocabulary of symbols in order to draw a new different conclusion. I'd like to think people are smart enough to understand through context of the wildly juxtaposed endings that the two have to be read differently, but it really can be legitimately confusing if you're looking at it for the first time.