Why is Fate:Zero so good compared to the rest of the series. Or rather... How did Fate:Zero end being so good despite the rest of the Fate series being so fucking terrible?
>>160986925
Because it appeals specifically to the shit taste of secondaries like yourself.
>>160986925
You just like Urobutrash directing. The series has always been bottom of the barrel.
Adult (married) MC instead of generic high school harem drama. Primaryfags will get angry reading this truth.
>>160986925
Because it is exactly what its audience is. A bunch of manchildren pretending to be mature. Unlike the LN which makes it abundantly clear characters like Kerry are mentally unchanged from their childhood, the anime actually attempts & fails at some maturity.
>>160986925
Because it was a mature medium made exclusively for grown ups unlike the childish pornographic visual "novel" that centered primarily around the lives and relationships of melodramatic magical japanese highschoolers
>>160986925
Because it is for those who do not understand the VN industry & those who don't understand that many VNs are forced to put pornographic content in the first few installments to even enter the industry & that they frequently do versions without the sex after.
>>160986925
Only secondaries believe this. Even UBW was better and that's saying something.
>>160987332
>Even UBW was better
In what way? Zero seems to just be objectively more entertaining in pretty much every way
>>160987332
UBW's pacing and characters were garbage. Zero is objectively better on those aspects.
>>160986925
Reminder
>>160987446
Those are probably the most immature posts I've read today.
>>160987038
I never stated it to be a masterpiece. It certainly goes out of it's way to be edgy as fuck sometimes.
But It still managed to be a lot more enjoyable than anything else I watched from this series....
>>160987446
>>160987199
You know the show can be mature while portraying immature characters, right?
Not a secondary, I just liked both Zero and Stay Night.
>>160987518
Agreed. Zero's immaturity leaks into anything which mentions it.
>>160987589
If they could understand that, they wouldn't be posting it. They confuse competence with maturity. By that logic, Mahouka is probably the most mature anime since the perfection that is Onii-sama exists.
>>160987589
Unfortunately, Zero doesn't manage that. Kiritsugu's objective of obtain magic wishing device & everything will be fine is far closer to a fantasy world. The LN mentions this.
"It is a childish ideal that all young boys grow attached to at least once, one that they abandon once they grow accustomed to the mercilessness of reality.
Any happiness requires a sacrifice, something all children learn when they become adults.
But, that man was different.
Maybe he was just the most foolish of all. Maybe he was broken somewhere. Or maybe, he might have been of the kind we call ‘Saints’, entrusted with God’s will. One that common people cannot understand."
Rather than portray all the characters as outwardly mature & internally immature as the LN, they try & do pretend maturity.
>filthy secondary who enjoyed Zero, UBW and the DEENime
Too bad Apocrypha still sucks.
>>160987700
Sieg is still shit, Jeanne loves the dragon dick, etc.Strange/Fake was better.
>>160987700
Is there even such thing as a good Fate adaptation then?
>>160986925
Because it has many interesting ideas, and it executes them adequately.
If there are people who are willing to join a DEATH GAME where you kill 6 other people to get a omnipotent wish granting device, then those people are not right in their heads. To actually join that game and think you can win, you need to have a certain level of arrogance, pride, pretentiousness and retardness. And all characters in Zero have that. They're all fucked up faggots and/or pretentious arrogant bastards. But that alone is not interesting enough. What made Zero interesting is how it handled those people. People so fucked in many different ways, yet think they're above everyone else. And while they do, the show itself doesn't even pretend they are. That is why almost all of them die and/or have their ideals crushed. It shows them just how retarded they were being, and it does it adequately.
In process of doing that, Zero makes those character interesting in their own rights. They all have different ideals and world views, and Zero explores all those ideas adequately. From yuetsu to suffering, how can one be derived from the other, implications of saving lives to killing people, taking those things too far, tyranny against chivalry, clinging onto unreachable ideals, delusional murderers and their morality, slow decent into madness and embracing the madness they were born with. It had many such ideas which it explores while it develops and takes cares of its characters fairly.
And finally, while the characters were full of flaws, they weren't bad. Some were fun to simply watch for their, like Rider and Gil, others were interesting to watch because how they handled their fucked-upness, like Kiritsugu and Kirei. Overall, it all blended well together to give a nice experience.
All of that said, Zero LN > F/SN VN > Extra CCC/Zero anime. So no, it's not even close to being the best the franchise has to offer.
>>160986925
Kara no Kyoukai is better
>>160986925
Urobuchi writing I guess.
Nasu can write provocative characters and situations, but needs someone with some *modicum* of talent to tie it together.
Honestly it says a lot about a franchise when the best instalment is done by a hired writer. Maybe if Nasu didn't base his historical perspective around what figures would be best to masturbate to he would be more successful.
He stumbled upon a great premise and complicated it into a franchise, which made him money, but didn't earn him respect. What a shame.
>>160986925
Despite the memes, Urobuchi is actually a good writer. Also, it's not focused on waifupandering like some other entries in the franchise
>>160986925
Because the source material was written by an actual writer and not a bunch of retards like all other fate shit
>>160986925
It's not any better than the rest. The only reason people notice it more is because it was the first in the franchise to not get a visually poor quality adaptation.
The characters were not that interesting, and the setup was painfully boring as fuck. Everyone kept tabs on each other and anyone who tried to be an ass got fucked, except maybe Gilgamesh. If Fate/Zero wasn't a prequel then Kiritsugu would have just been another fool, and the real main character would have been Waver.
Strange Fake is better.
>>160986925
Because of the anime.
You wouldn't say that if you only read the LN
>>160987079
>high school harem drama
I can never take SN seriously because of this
>>160988231
Life must be so hard for you. You have my genuine sympathy. With the greatest possible respect, please remember that professional psychological help can sometimes be a great benefit to one's wellbeing.
>>160986925
Have a pity (you).
>>160987520
Then it's your opinion, don't go mistaking it for a solid fact, anon.
>>160989982
Kiritsugu was just another fool in Zero. By the end his ideals are supposed to come off as half baked and childish
>>160988275
the dose you swallowed is 10 times more potent than marijuana
>>160988327
>but didn't earn him respect. What a shame.
Oh shit Nasu didn't earn the respect of le random anonymous-kun posting in a mongolian image board. How will he ever recover?
>>160989089
>It's not focused on waifupandering
>Focused on fujopandering instead
If your story and setting are already butchered like it is in stay night it only makes sense to hire a professional Butcher to sort it out.
Kiritsugu was a man child and arguably more retarded than Shirou, anyone who disagrees missed the entire point of zero
>>160990023
More like Strange/Retcon.
>>160986925
because it wasn't written by nasu
>>160987727
SF manga updates when?
>>160991429
>patent denial
>>160987727
>I'm a charactershitter
How to spot a redditor.
>>160987700
>Too bad Apocrypha still sucks.
What did you expect from the series that reunites Naruto and Kirito on the same story?
>>160991384
>Kiritsugu was just another fool in Zero
Ah, I meant that more people would actually view him as a fool if the story didn't give him a disproportionate amount of screen time.
>>160991813
Poor anon. Are you feeling bad because Nasu's rich as fuck and recognized as an idol for other upcoming doujin soft authors and you're not?
>>160991535
When will this cunt go back to writing VNs? I need more Saya no Uta and Kikokugai.
>>160991562
>arguably more retarded than Shirou
Impossible. Shirou is the most retarded character in Fate.
>>160987199
>implying zero didn't make it abundantly clear Kerry was a retard and a manchild, albeit a tragic one
Just because there are metric tons of Kerryfags doesn't mean the show did a bad job of portraying him.
But Fate:Zero is also trash
>>160994073
> "Shirou is Retarded xDDD"
Shirou realises in 2 out 3 routes that his ideal is unattainable and settles for more pragmatic solutions.
Kiritsugu didn't stop until everything went to shit around himself.
>>160988231
>If there are people who are willing to join a DEATH GAME where you kill 6 other people to get a omnipotent wish granting device, then those people are not right in their heads
Everyone has to die at some point. Besides its not really a death game, you just need to kill the 6 other people's Servants. If they get in the way and end up getting killed than it was their own damn fault.
If I could get an omnipotent wish machine, I don't mind killing 6 people who I do not know or give a fuck about. If you want some bs justification for avarice, they would kill me as well to get the wish machine, so all is fair.
>>160994275
>His ideal is unattainable
>Its the same ideal as Kiri.
>Assassin Kiri achieved his ideal by not meeting Iri and then anally raped Manjew to death.
What?
Ah, the ''fate zero is better and more mature because kerry wears a trenchcoat and uses a gun and people cry hard before they die'' meme
>>160986925
Oh look it's this thread again.
>>160994275
>using emoticons ever.
Kill yourself.
>Kiritsugu has 1 route
>Shirou has 3 routes
Yeah not exactly comparable is it now? And Shirou only abandons his ideals in HF, so its 2 out of 3 routes.
>>160994464
>Its the same ideal as Kiri.
Kerry's ideal is the "ceasing of human conflict", Shirou wants to become a superhero who can save everyone
>Assassin Kiri achieved his ideal by not meeting Iri and then anally raped Manjew to death.
I don't know if it's a retcon, but how does killing the fake Persian Anti-Christ, achieves Kiritsugu's ideal?
>>160994529
> Yeah not exactly comparable is it now?
even Shirou at his most autistic (Archer during his life), didn't fuck up as badly as Kerry.
Kiritsugu ruined the life of everyone he loved, and had shit to show for it in exchange.
>>160986925
I felt Fate/Zero to be incredibly underwhelming compared to FSN. Though that could be because it didn't have several routes to fully explore the cast.
>>160994464
Assassin Kiri is the same as EMIYA and just look at his fucking face.
>>160994529
>Implying the ideals are always a bad thing
In one of the routes where he didn't gave up on it he's currently fucking King Arthur's right pussy in a pseudo heaven.
>>160994722
*tight
>>160994507
>Kiritsugu became the same kind of fake Heroic Spirit as EMIYA
NANI
I DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THIS
>>160987678
I honestly don't see the problem of a grown adult still having an idealistic dream.
I mean, Trump is in office. If HE can become president, you can do whatever your heart desires.
>>160987079
>harem
Whatever you like thinking dude.
>>160991482
theres nothing wrong with that
>>160987387
>objectively entertaining
>>160995356
>Waifupandering a shit!
>But Fujopandering is good!
Take your (you) and leave fujo.
>>160994829
Because it didn't happen. The Kiritsugu we know and hate is dead, nothing more. That Heroic Spirit Kiritsugu is from another timeline, where he never met Iri and continued living as an assassin. He was never given a chance to try his hand at a miracle to save the world, so he continued doing so like EMIYA did.
>>160994073
You're an idiot who didn't understand Zero then. How do people read Zero and think that Kiritsugu's ideology was even remotely correct? He's not supposed to be some mature character, he's a man clinging to a childish way of thinking that completely disregards any sort of long term consequences and ignores reality just as much as the Heroes he scoffs at. Kiritsugu is a massive hypocrite, that's the point of his character.
>>160996304
What was Kiritsugu's ideology anyway? The whole sacrificing the few to save many thing?
>>160996497
His ideal was that all lives are of equal value and there is no way to save everyone short of a miracle (the grail). Therefore, the only right thing to do is save as many as possible, to sacrifice the few in the name of the many. The issue is that the many will always be in more danger, no matter how much you sacrifice. Also his way of valuing human life was incredibly oversimplistic.
>>160986925
Because of this.
>>160996497
Yup, that's why the Grail mindfucked him and tried to grant his wish by presenting him with the "how will you save these two sinking ships" scenario and then more and more bloody and personal scenarios, until he realizes that if his wish were to be granted, the corrupted Grail would simply interpret it as "humans can't be happy, so I'm gonna kill everyone but you and your family since you wanted peace"
It's why his rejection of the grail and decision to destroy it is so impactful, because up til that point he's always lived by sacrificing the few for the greater good.
>>160986925
UBW > HF > Urine >>>> Shit > Zero >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DST
>>160994688
Most of the cast was just disposable fodder. There's not much that can be written that truly expands upon any of them.
Waver and maybe the Archibalds are the only ones I can see benefiting from this.
>>160996304
>How do people read Zero and think that Kiritsugu's ideology was even remotely correct?
Since when were you under the impression that I said Kiritusgu's ideals were correct? All I said was Shirou was more retarded. My opinion on Kiritsugu's ideals is the same as Kirei's.
>>160996818
Yeah I like Kiritsugu's character but most zerofags don't seem to understand that he is the height of immaturity. Not that that's an issue, characters can be immature and still be good. But saying that he is more mature than Shirou is just blatantly wrong.
>>160996861
>was more retarded.
People who call Shirou retarded have no right to judge what's intelligent or well written.
If you can't even wrap your head around him as a character, you're the one who's retarded.
>>160996758
That doesn't really sound retarded. That's the simplest, most logical way of looking at it. The only alternatives that are either kill everyone, don't save anyone or save the few. All of which are worse.
>>160996861
How is Shirou more retarded than someone who is willing to sacrifice everyone he loves for some supposed miracle that might not even be real? Since caster was summoned most everyone knew something was wrong with the grail, yet ignoring all the signs he still marched on forward, sacrificing everything he could.
Ufotable did a great job with Fate/Zero following it up with the UBW route. The way they animated UBW made it link very well to Zero and they provided many parallels and connections that really tied them together. You can't watch Fate/Zero and not watch their UBW adaptation right after anymore, they work too well together.
Shirou is shown as a successful version of Kiritsugu, the realization of his dream, and gives Zero the closure it needs.
Just watching Zero alone is a poor choice.
>>160996962
>someone who is willing to sacrifice everyone he loves for some supposed miracle that might not even be real?
He didn't do that though. He didn't sacrifice anyone for the Grail.
>>160996936
Do you really think anyone puts equal value on everyone's lives? That someone, if they had to choose, would rather save 50 random strangers they never knew over, say, their family?
>>160996936
Except no human can possiblely correctly judge the weight of another life or accurately predict the reprocussions of taking a life. Also instead of trying to think of lasting solutions to problems, kiritsugu just defaults to killing. How can anyone say that this method prevents the least people from dying when you simply give up on saving everyone?
>>160997015
His wife was the Grail for one.
>>160997015
>who is Iri?
>who is Maiya?
>who is Illya?
>>160993855
VN writters stop giving a fuck when they make it big anon, the same way that Nasu will never ever write anything again, Urobuchi simple won't bother, he will just keep working on tv shows, its much more money for less work
I don't like either protag, but Fate/Zero gives us a lot of time with other characters to get a good sense of their motivations and struggle. I liked just about everything with Waver and Iskander since they had great chemistry.
>>160996831
DST's OST and cute Seiba puts it above Zero for me
>>160997873
Waver and Iskander are the only good characters in Zero
>>160997990
>loud manchild who talks shit about best king
>good
>>160997873
Stay Night does the same thing. It's just that the time is allocated differently depending on the route.
>>160997990
DUDE 11!!1!
>>160987446
the word immature seems weird now
immature
>>160994429
did you forget the part where grail war is a facade to mask the twisted ritual of sacrificing 7 heroes so hard they literally stop existing forever
oh and there's angry manjew hiding in it, you'd think Einzbern patriarch would have mentioned something to Kerry
>>160997990
DUDE
>>omnipotent wish granting device
>>isn't actually omnipotent
Lame. In the fate zero anime itself there is use of a binding magical contract to prevent someone from harming another, why can't the grail place a geas on all of humanity that does the same thing?
There's a girl in apocryphal who wants the grail to heal her legs. Why not wish to be immortal god empress of the multiverse who guarantees peace and happiness for her and all of her lover ones until the stars burn out of the sky?
The fact that an """"""omnipotent"""""" object has been used multiple times without changing the status quo is dumb
>>I wish for a way to avert the hest death of the universe
>>I wish for widespread interstellar travel so humanity need not be bound to one planet
>>I wish for everyone in the world to worship me as a god
>>I wish for the end of reality
>>I wish I was a god
>>160998344
Manjew happened in the previous war, I don't think they knew he had full on tainted it forever.
So how do you guys rate Extra?
>>160998407
Not everyone is megalomaniac like you
>>160998407
>why can't the grail place a geas on all of humanity that does the same thing?
Because it's fucking tainted you piece of shit secondary.
The einzberns in the war before the one in Zero got knocked out of the war early, got pissed, try to summon literally satan but just wound up summoning some kid who was bullied to death by his village and cursed to be "all evils of the world". So when he inevitably died like a bitch, the grail granted his wish of all evils and now all wishes from that point on will result in the total extinction of the human race.
>>160998407
1. It's not omnipotent.
2. It was never omnipotent.
3. It's not a wish granting device, but a ritual to recover the Einzbern's lost true magic, Heaven's Feel.
4. Pay attention instead of jerking off how intelligent you are while ironically being unable to understand common knowledge.
Just wanna let you niggers know that Apocrypha also exist.
>>160998626
Yo that's a hard R my dude.
>>160998626
Please don't remind me.
>>160998461
Best Saber
>>160998569
It wasn't tainted in the first or second grail wars and nobody wished for anything actually game changing
>>160998461
I liked the part about figuring out servants identities and the theme of virtual world/alien supercomputer/magical hackers and shiet sounds silly but was actually decently presentedTamamo can go die in a fire though
>>160998671
>and nobody wished for anything actually game changing
Because the first and second grail wars were never completed, they kept fucking up.
>>160997065
>>160997084
That wasn't his sacrifice. Iri was MADE to die. She was going to die, regardless of his choice. If anything, he saved her, letting her live as a human. Kind of same with Illya, she was going to become KIllya no matter what. He had nothing to do with it. He even tried to go back to save her, he just couldn't.
As for Maiya, she died protecting Iri. He didn't order her to die.
>>160998671
the holy grail doesn't grant wishes
>>160998461
>So how do you guys rate Extra?
Poorly. Why did it have to be in a highschool? The ideas were interesting but deciding the tournament would be fought in a fucking highschool of all places completely ruined it for me.
I still played it because I'll play any game that lets you use Archer but it was fucking bad.
>>160998671
They all slaughtered each other, you dipshit. They then decided to involve the Church into the Wars as mediator.
>>160998642
Speak English faggot.
>>160997020
That's heartless, but that's all it is. It's a logical way of looking at it. I'd call it fucked up, sure, but retarded? He's just taking the safest possible option to saving the most lives. The last time he favored those close to him, with Shirley, his entire village died and his life was destroyed. Many lives were. He could've prevented all of that by taking just one life. As someone who always wanted to become a nice hero who saves people, that was all he could do. That's hardly retarded.
>>160987446
But I recognize this and it's exactly why I like Zero so much
I like Stay Night a lot too, but Zero manages to do some really interesting stuff with it's completely immature and adult-children cast. I'll argue against the portrayal of Tokiomi in there, only because I think his immaturity comes from somewhere completely unrelated to being a parent.
>>160999058
And see >>160998977 again.
Saying you can't put value on human life is the same as saying don't save anyone because you don't know who to save. Kiritsugu put equal value on all of them. The total of more lives is just more valuable than less lives if they're all the same value.
>Also instead of trying to think of lasting solutions to problems, kiritsugu just defaults to killing.
What you're proposing is "doing nothing". He tried that. It ended up with his hometown, everyone he knew and loved, dead. After that, even an idiot wouldn't try the same thing again. It's the most riskiest thing, that can lead the more people dying than necessary. Sure, he COULD have tried to think of a way to save his "mother" and still defeat the Dead Apostles on the plane. But that had an extremely high chance of an entire city ending up dead. He took the safest method, and for that, he took one life to save a city. He took the best possible action with the highest probability of success with the lowest risk factor. That's the exact opposite of being retarded.
>How can anyone say that this method prevents the least people from dying when you simply give up on saving everyone?
>saving everyone
Come on, anon-kun. It's like you learned nothing from Kerry, EMIYA, and even the Fate world.
You think he didn't try? He himself admits to having tried saving everyone countless times. It never worked. The guy who wanted to save everyone to autistic extant came to the conclusion only a miracle could save everyone. That remained true for even the Grail. If he hadn't destroyed the Grail, everyone would die. But destroying it lead to many dying.
Even EMIYA, who spent an eternity trying to save everyone could not do it. Even the world thinks that's impossible, thus Counter Force existing to kill possible threats, not save them. Because that works, while saving doesn't. To think someone would still say "save everyone" in Fate franchise is baffling.
>>160989089
>>160988327
wasn't this urobuchi dude the same writer who wrote aldnoah/zero? why do people praise him that much ?
>>161001675
Psycho Pass, Madoka and Fate/Zero, all considered some of the best anime in the community. Pretty much every anime with him as a writer ended up loved by the masses, making him the first writer in anime to become popular.
As for Aldnoah, it's said he only really helped with the first episode. Nothing more. He himself disliked it.
Jesus christ this thread is dumb as fuck
even if you only watched Fate/Zero most of your questions are answered in the BD Einzbern Consultation Room OVAs
there's cute Iris and young taiga fanservice so that's another reason to watch them
Why do we have this same thread every single fucking day?
>>161001909
sorry. I'm not a homunculus lover, faggot.
>>160986925
It's not based on a dating sim, which enables its primary characters not to be teenage girls.
>>161002125
Is saber a teenage?
>>161002152
She certainly acts the part.
>>161000375
Just because you can't save everyone doesn't mean you have to stop trying, by your logic we should stop fighting crime because it will never stop.
>>161002176
I mean it kinda fuck up. She should be around 20-30 or something.... How the fuck does one that is that old mentally fucks a high school?
>>161002262
That's actually pretty common, you should go out more often.
>>161002563
.....
You fucking disgusting pig
>>161002262
Mate, there are actual 20-30 year old female high school teachers who fuck their students. Seeing as Shirou is fit and manly instead of a beta bitch like many other MC's, it's not that much of a stretch.
>>161002642
That still kinda fuck up, right?
>>161002592
Did you spill some blood on your pad today?
>>161002262
Basically all she did was kill shit for about 10 years, and her age was frozen at 15 so she might as well be that age.
>>161002690
Dude... We talking about having sex with underage people.. isn't it kinda fuck?
>>161002727
age doesn't work like that, boy.. unless you are saying that you might have done something like that?
>>161002796
Are you trying to bait or are you really this dumb? Saber comes from a time when girls were getting married at 12 and pregnant at 14
>>161002915
Sadly this is 2017. We do not have sex with underage people, Do you understaaand?
>>161002796
I can't be fooled by your weaksauce ellipses, Rinfag.
>>161002955
Ah so it's bait.
Seiba is inconsequential as a character anyway. Rin, on the other hand, could easily have the entire VN rewritten as centering on her with very few changes having to be made to the story for it to work like that.
>>161002956
>>161002955
>>161002915
>>161003027
>>161002956
Can't Believe that all those fucking piece of shit people got bait by one of the most fucking stupid shit. THANKS FOR RUINING THE THREAD. FUCKING GARBAGE SHIT PEOPLE
>>161002682
No, that's pretty hot.
>>160986925
FZ is shit too
>MC is a fucking edgy faggot
>Villians are even more saturday morning cartoon-tier than FSN ones
>Adults acting like teenagers
Its shit, butcher is a faggot
>>161003064
better than ded
>>160997681
but Nasu is writing GO 2 as we speak
>>161003038
Where is that screenshot with Taiga saying Rin was quite unimportant for a main character?
>>161003175
Tsukihime
Remake
>>161003064
My bait literal saved this thread. So fuck you
Dont forget guys, reading story-rich porn makes you a connoisseur of storytelling.
>>161003296
It does though.
>>161003147
>HF was far more edgy then anything in Zero
>Villains are the friggin same
>Adults acting like...adults
You're not even trying at this point.
>>161001770
wasn't he the same person who created phantom of the inferno ? the 2nd half sucked and the 1st half wasn't actually bad bat it was edgy as shit .this guy writes edgy teens novels why do adult people here love him ?
>>161003554
You don't need to use a bait image to let us know your post is bait.
>>161002199
Because most adults aren't allergic to edge. Edgy stories are just another type of stories, and they're pretty popular because humans are conditioned to react more viscerally to negative changes than positive ones.
>>161003799
Stage 1: Denial.
>>161003743
>why do adult people here love him ?
More like teenagers who pretend to be adults and young adults.
>tfw you will never have sweaty, hot, gay sex with Shirou in his doujo.
>tfw you will never eat Shirou's deliciousfood.
Anyway, should i read Tsukihime? I have no expectations. How many routes are there? How many routes do i have to do before cute Maido route?How many until THIS CHAIR?
>>161004472
Makes me wonder why didnt Urobuchi write a grittier and more entertaining prequel to Tsukihime.
>>161004472
Sure, why not? Arcueid is kinda like Ilya and you can literally rape her.
>>161004656
Tsukihime is pretty gritty to begin with. I mean the MC brutally murders a girl in the beginning just because.
>>161005133
The part where he hangs out with murderous vampire that wants to fuck his sister is better example of grittiness really
>>161004472
Yes, you should read it; it's far better than F/SN (better pacing, themes, and a more cathartic ending). And just Google 'Tsukihime route order', dumbass.
>>160987079
They're not married. Not legally.
>>161005222
>dumbass
>>160998671
it doesn't actually grant wishes like you would expect it
it needs a "how-to"
the Grail provides the winner with all the accumulated magical energy it got from the death of the Servants, but it needs a means for that.
the whole "muh omnipotent wish-granting device" is just a scam to lure more Magi into entering. the true price was opening a path to the Root/getting the Third Magic
>>161003554
I know people who actually believe this, so I'll use it as an opportunity to explain why that's completely retarded and patently false for whoever cares to read it.
For starters, the darkness in HF has a distinct and rational purpose connected to the themes of heroism and its role in the broader world. Even the recurring villains have more personal motivations than their FZ counterparts, such as Zouken losing sight of his desire for the root and fear of death after generations of obsession or Kirei fulfilling his role in a way that he has no choice to in order to reassure that he deserved to be born. Sakura, despite being mad like Gilles and Ryuunosuke, is like that not just so the VN can put dead kids as a selling point on the back cover, but because of her misfortune at the hands of selfish and fearful people. Every one of them, even Alter Saber, are there because of people's desire to hide their inner darkness. Much unlike FZ, Angra Mainyu was more complex than his source material.
Meanwhile we have Kerry coming up with a convoluted geas plan to torture Archibald when simply shooting him would have sufficed, ignorant of the forgone conclusion of Saber's eventual victory, bullets that tear people apart from the inside out just to make action scenes more interesting, Saber being mischaracterized to justify getting mindbroken by being told that she did a shitty job as King when she already decided that before she entered the HGW, and psychopaths going on a rampage torturing children to death for the lulz.
If HF were anywhere near as edgy and immature as FZ, Gil would have been torn limb from limb when he died and slowly digested in agony while ruminating over how meaningless his death was, we would have had to sit through Shinji raping Sakura before she killed him, and the true ending would be Tiger Dojo 40.
>>161005561
It's been 10 years since i read the VN.
What do i do at the Root? What is the third magic? How can i use it?
>>161005629
Nothing. Once you actually reach the Root, you disappear forever.
The Five Magicians are those who created a path to the Root, but refused to actually take a step further.
>>161005831
Okay, so it's just for show?
>>161005922
It's the ultimate goal for every magus to reach the Root. Magicians are failures.
>>161005922
they're zealots
>>160998407
Because, and my mind is a touch fuzzy here, the grail acts as either an asshole genie or an evil genie. Either way, you're not getting what you want. You're getting what you asked for twisted in such a way that you (hopefully) don't want it anymore.
If you used the grail to get diet coke it would be flat and cause cancer. If you wished for a way to avert the heat death of the universe it would make you QB. So on and so forth.
>>161005587
>Meanwhile we have Kerry coming up with a convoluted geas plan to torture Archibald when simply shooting him would have sufficed
if he had simply shot Kayneth, he'd still have had, Lancer to deal with
there was a legit chance that Diarmuid would kill Saber and then kill him as well
> and psychopaths going on a rampage torturing children to death for the lulz
Team Caster was over-the-top as fuck, but they their reasons as well.
Gilles went crazy after Jeanne - the one who reaffirmed his belief in God in the first place - was betrayed and executed, and it sure didn't help his views that he was executed not for murder - which would've at least shown that there is some divine punishment in the world - but because the state needed his lands.
Ryuunosuke was an edgy brat, I'll give you that, but I admit I enjoyed his rambling and his own interpreation about God's nature.
>>160987446
>Iri is the most mature
>Literally can't drive for shit
>>161006389
That's just a theory. In reality, the angry manjew inside it just shits out and endless stream of curses whenever its opened for whatever reason. The whole, "omnipotent wish-granting device," thing was just an excuse the original families came up with to draw in unsuspecting magi to function as sacrifices for the Grail.
>you said you want a cheeseburger? well I guess I better wipe out all life on earth so no one will eat all the cheeseburgers before you get one!!!
>diet coke? curses
>heat death? curses
>world peace? curses
>>160987446
> Iri is the most mature
reminder that Kiritsugu had doubts and considered running away with Iri, rescuing Illya and leaving the HGW behind
then Iri told him, that it would crush him, and would drive him to despair
>>161006645
It would have. But it's not like the ending he got was much better.
Part of Kiritsugu's issues is that he made a tremendous amount of sacrifices to get to where he was. He was cruel, merciless, drove countless to despair and killed many times more than that. In order to grant some meaning to those lost lives, he HAD to achieve he wish no matter what. But in the end, he was denied that. The Grail he sought was a sham and he was forced to realize the futility and madness of his own wish. What was left was nothing more than a broken man. Literally the only thing that saved him, the one pillar of support he had left that kept the world from crushing him, was Shirou.
Shirou was the only thing that stopped him from becoming a dry, soulless husk. He should have fallen into the depths of madness and despair either way, whether he ran away from the war or followed it through to the end. But because Shirou was there, he was allowed a tiny sliver of salvation. A man like him should never have died with a smile on his face, but it was thanks to Shirou that he was allowed that one last grace.
>>161005984
>>161006224
Magicians really are retarded.
>>161006581
I mean, it does appear to at least try to stay on topic regarding what you wished for. If you wished for a coke it would give you curses, but they'd still involve a coke, not a pepsi.
>>161007375
One thing I wish for but will never get was for Kotomine to realize he actually cared for Rin and feel a twinge of regret.
>>161007568
Regret over? It's not like Rin would be mad at him for killing her retarded father. It was war, and Rin is the kind of person that wanted to kill her sister and never talked to her on school.
>>161007568
He likes Rin, but he will never regret anything. After all, he gets his kicks off of evil. Hell, the thing that horrified him the most about his wife's death was that, at the end of it all, his greatest regret was not being the one to kill her himself.
>>161005922
They don't go to the root, but they take Magic from it.
>>161007691
>It's not like Rin would be mad at him for killing her retarded father.
But she does get mad at him. I forgot how the attic scene played out in the VN but is UFOtable's UBW, she explodes when she finds out he killed her daddy.
>Japanese game/anime tries to talk philosophically
Why are they so terrible at it? It ALWAYS comes off like a 13 year old wrote it
>>161007858
It's the hormones and the fact she's tied up. Rin's a smart girl, eventually she would have forgiven Kotomine Kirei, the priest.
>>161008054
I seriously doubt that seeing as she never forgave him just for not protecting her daddy.
>>161005587
Not that anon, but your argument here is a prime example of what the problem is in Zero v SN discussions, whichever side you're on, you come up with all these deep analysis points FOR but when it comes to AGAINST you don't put the same amount of effort in, not making it very consistent.
>the darkness in HF has a distinct and rational purpose connected to the themes of heroism and its role in the broader world.
For example this point you made here can also be applied exactly onto Fate/Zero as well but you won't because you're against it.
>such as Zouken losing sight of his desire for the root and fear of death after generations of obsession.
Whilst you are correct on your point here, this also applies to Zero as well.
>Kirei fulfilling his role in a way that he has no choice to in order to reassure that he deserved to be born.
Again this is correct however you have to remember that in Zero Kirei was still trying to find a purpose to his life as he had no idea what he wanted. This plotline was a necessity because of how Kirei was written in SN.
>Sakura & Gilles/Ryuunosuke
Again here's the problem. You give out meaning behind Sakura's madness but just write off the other two as madman who do it for the lolz. Giles went mad because his ray of hope Jeanne was caught and executed unjustly and then he also due to people's greed. This made him lose faith in humanity like Sakura did. Okay Ryunnosuke did not have misfortune but rather had a very warped sense of entertainment like Kirei did (but you don't write him off as just a madman who does things for the lolz) plus also had arguably an intriguing philosophy on God's personality. Zero had to write a serial killer because it was mentioned there was one in SN and quite frankly I think they did a reasonable job.
>>161008813
>Much unlike FZ, Angra Mainyu was more complex than his source material
They couldn't really dwell much on AM in Zero since nobody knew about the existence of AM until Kiritsugu met it because if they did, well SN wouldn't have existed.
>Meanwhile we have Kerry coming up with a convoluted geas plan to torture Archibald when simply shooting him would have sufficed,
Yep I agree with this but simply because the Geas plan was a huge risk and could have backfired because Kayneth could have used his last CS to kill Kiritsugu instead and that would have been the end.
>Saber being mischaracterized to justify getting mindbroken by being told that she did a shitty job as King when she already decided that before she entered the HGW.
You have to know that Zero is a prequel to the Stay Night events so "mischaracterised" in this instance isn't really a legit point since the events of Zero is what would have lead to her portrayal in SN in the first place. It would have been quite frankly, odd if her behaviour was exactly the same when she can retain her memories.
>If HF were anywhere near as edgy and immature as FZ. Gil would have been torn limb from limb when he died and slowly digested in agony while ruminating over how meaningless his death was.
Except that's exactly what happens with Shirou when you take a Bad End in SN. Look both Zero and SN have plenty of 'dark' 'edgy' moments in them and calling one of them out for this and not the other, is just silly and this kind of discussion is pointless. Same goes with 'immature/mature' people use these buzzwords to make themselves feel like they're the grown-ups with the moral high ground and its childish. Yes that applies to those that go on about Zero's 'maturity'. Honestly I think both Fate productions have their own merits and problems and neither one outclasses the other. Its just sad to see how much shit either side gets when the Fate community should be as one.
>>161007150
>A man like him should never have died with a smile on his face
you could cut with that, anon
>>161009819
I'm not saying he wasn't allowed to. I'm saying that the only end that awaited him on other path was despair. Shirou was a miracle for Kiritsugu. The fact that, at the very end, he was not only able to save someone, but that someone was able to stay be his side until the very end was nothing short of miraculous.
>>161007988
> implying modern western shit does any better
>>161007568
Kotomine deliberately took poor care of her family's wealth and took pleasure in trolling her throughout the whole Grail War
never got the impression he cared about her in Zero either, where he gives her the Azoth Dagger just so she would end up crying.