Explain how a human beat a demigod
It doesn't make sense to me.
>>160540940
It didn't make sense to Nasu either.
The idea of a human challenging his superiors is the basis of the traditional adventure story which has accompanied humanity for thousands of years. How can it be beyond you?
It literally explains it
>secondaries
Not just any demigod, Gil was 2/3 god!
>>160540940
Because I am the bone of my sword.
Steel is my body and fire is my blood.
I have created over a thousand blades.
Unknown to death.
Nor known to life.
>>160541325
>so you're saying you had three parents?
>That's one more than most people!
>>160541391
>Guts, Casca, Griffith
But that would only make him 1/3 God - unless there's something we don't know yet about Guts.
>>160540940
Yeah, nobody cares.
Now let's bring in some real plot-holes:
1. How did Shirou not instantly die to Lancer?
2. How did Rin defeat Caster and kill Heracles when it was EXPLICITLY STATED that humans literally cannot kill Servants?
3. How did Gil even last 2 seconds against Saber in a swordfight in the Fate route? That time when his armour was starting to get scratched.
4. How did Zouken escape EMIYA? I re-read this section several times and still yell at my screen each time I read it.
>>160541356
Japanese text doesn't say that at all, explain VNfags
>>160540940
Shirou is hardly human, more like human shaped sword with abilit to copy god level swords and spam it.
ask fai
>>160540967
That part made sense to him. What didn't was convincing everyone that said human can't beat everyone else in the cast by extension
>>160541453
1. Didn't he actually die to Lancer?
2. I believe it was said humans cannot kill servants without the use of tools.
3. No idea. You could argue that Gil had much more powerful weapons, but considering Gil can't actually fight with them...
4. No bloody clue.
I mean, he's not the real Gil from the pinnacle of his myth. He's bitch Gil from after Enkidu died but before he met Noah and got bested by a snake.
Caster Gil is the only Gil that comes from the height of Gilgamesh power.
>>160540940
human beating demi-gods are not new though
>>160541696
>Before he met Noah
Was that sage really Noah?
He copied the demi god.
But I also think the demi god wasn't really trying because in his mind actually trying to beat a human would be worse than being beat by a human.
>>160541660
>1. Didn't he actually die to Lancer?
I assume he meant the second time around when he fended him off with a piece of paper
>>160541747
The one Gilgamesh meets after following the path of the sun into the Earth? Yeah. Even the Sumerian original called him Noah and it's the oldest great flood myth we know of.
The entirety of Jewish myth is just fanfiction bootleg copies of Sumerian and Babylonian mythology and folk tales but with an OC DONUT STEAL hebrew mary sue hero.
Even the snake that stole the herb of immortality was reused as the snake of Eden with the apple.
>>160541767
>But I also think the demi god wasn't really trying because in his mind actually trying to beat a human would be worse than being beat by a human.
>If I kill my enemies, they win
What? Did he takes lessons from Trudeau?
>>160541747
No. Don't know what the fuck that guy's smoking. Archer Gil lived through his entire legend; this is easily verifiable. Archer Gil is also stated to be the strongest Gil. Caster Gil exists solely in the worlds in which Tiamat blows up everything and he has to defend Uruk.
>>160540940
He got one hit in, and lost all his steam.
Gil wasn't wearing armor, constantly underestimates him, and he could've pulled out instant wins anytime, but chose to humor him instead. Also, the whole UBW being a hard counter to Gil, and Shirou having assimilated his "ideal" with Archer's weird time bullshit.
Shirou got one hit in, and that's because Gil flinched when he was about to pull Ea. And that one hit would've been fatal to a human sure, but not a servant, much less one of Gil's caliber. Shirou's "victory" was Gil acknowledging Shirou's strength and potential, and he was about to kill him if not for Rin fucking up the Grail. Even then, Gil still would've pulled Shirou with him if not for Archer.
>>160541834
His reasoning wasn't faggot shit. He just has too much ego and pride.
>>160540940
Simple math.
>>160541834
>If I kill my enemies, they win
What? No, his reasoning was more "this peon isn't worth putting effort in" or something egotistic like that.
>>160541960
Shut the fuck up retard
>>160541453
>2. How did Rin defeat Caster and kill Heracles when it was EXPLICITLY STATED that humans literally cannot kill Servants?
It's only said that they're not strong enough. Most servants were, after all, just humans.
Fate stay night is pure shit. Shirous whole "hurr durr I can imagine a sword to become real" powers are one of the biggest asspulls I've ever seen. FSN in general is full of badly written asspulls. Don't think too hard trying to make sense of it.
>>160540940
He didn't, though. He managed to hurt Gil, because Gil, being the nice guy he is, didn't take high school kid seriously.
But even after that kid did his best, had received mana crest from one of the strongest families, had received experience from his future self and became stronger, used the perfect Noble Phantasm to counter Gil and managed to catch Gil off guard, he couldn't kill Gil. He managed to hurt Gil, but Gil didn't die. He would've won, had the Holy Grail itself, Angra Mainyu and Archer didn't interfere all at the same time.
>>160542316
>hurr durr I can imagine a sword to become real
That was set up from the beginning though. There's plenty of holes to poke in f/sn but that really isn't one of them. Right at the beginning he's creating makeshift swords out of materials, and his enchanting works best with sword like objects. He fucking loves thinking about swords the whole way through. It's the most set up thing ever by the time he pulls Caliburn out, way before UBW.
And reality marbles were established back in Tsukihime.
>>160542316
Did you completely miss all the sword dreams and training?
>>160540940
Gil never took him serious, he has its stats magic boosted and cause PLOT and MAGIC he got decades worth of experience transfered to him cause EMIYA.
Gil could easily 1 shot most servants if he were not so ass prided about not using EA
Inflated Ego, and pride to extremes makes him not go all out from the start, thinking it's enough. And when that pride is hurt he refuses to power up any further to try and prove a point. He only tried to use Ea once it was too late and he panicked.
>>160541453
1) mouse playing with its food, he did died
2) Servants are just super powered humans, its almost impossible but NOT impossible
3) Gil was taking her serious unlike he does to almost anything else?
4) PLOT
>>160542452
>Gil didn't die. He would've won, had the Holy Grail itself, Angra Mainyu and Archer didn't interfere all at the same time.
Everyone forgets this, for some reason. Their fight was like Hisoka and Gon's. Gon managed to get in one hit, but beyond that, he could do nothing to Hisoka. But everyone forgets that and goes GILGAMESH BTFO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>160540940
Because the retard was outclassed here. Except with just one weapon he wouldn't have been and shirou would have most likely killed himself if he saw the weapon. I still want to fuck his boy pussy though.
>>160542984
>everyone forgets that and goes GILGAMESH BTFO
This is modern /a/, after all. Every new chapter, page, or word of any Japanese work will, invariably, trigger at least one stupid freak here to post "____ BTFO" or "____fags BTFO" because it's a funny meme that they saw somebody else use.
>>160541453
1. He did though
2. fuck off secondary
3. He's not complete shit with a sword, just not as good as her
4. EMIYA doesn't have any tools as effective against Zouken as Kotomine has, e.g. the baptismal sacraments which are an instant kill.
Caster gil would've killed shirou easy
>>160543053
He wasn't really outclasses, he was just stubborn to the end against Shirou because his pride didn't allow him to use anything powerful against a mere human with no name for himself.
Also wouldn't it be 2 weapons? If he used the chains to immobilize him it would have probably worked, or maybe Shirou could counter that too.
>fate fags tell me to read the VN
>I do
>you need a massive amount of magical energy to be able to use a reality marble
>Shirou cums inside Rin so he can get more energy to use UBW
>this is literally how he did it
>this is considered good writing
>>160541453
>3. How did Gil even last 2 seconds against Saber in a swordfight in the Fate route? That time when his armour was starting to get scratched.
Gil is fucking strong. His power isn't just in throwing weapons. That's just a thing Nasu made, like how Saber can fire magical energy from Excalibur. Gilgamesh's myths make it clear he's physically strong as fuck too. He just doesn't use his full power anymore.
>>160543181
Well, they COULD have made it a boring ritual where they draw circles to transfer mana instead. Would you prefer that? If so, why? If not, why?
Why did Gil throw only swords at Shirou when he has all kinds of weapons in GoB? Iirc Shirou can't trace weapons other than swords, if Gil had thrown in some lances or axes Shirou wouldn't be able to block shit.
>>160543173
well he was outclassed in the sense shirou was a perfect match for gate since he could summon the same ratings even if they were weaker they could be strong enough to destroy their copies. which is what I mean so outclass wasn't the right word.
Chains is an anti-divine weapon unless they retcon that too like they did with the throne of heroes shirou should be able to cut out of them with a non divine weapon.
>>160543181
Nasu is a hack
>>160543237
Not him but to be fair, the sex did feel tacked on as fuck. Especially on fate route's threesome.
I don't mind sex, but don't make it such a stupid plot point, it basically makes everyone not fucking their own brains out before a fight a giant retard since it's apparently enough boost the fuck out of people with mana.
>>160543181
Honestly that's why I prefer realta nua. Without the forced sex making a contract between them so Rin can share her mana with him made that scene a lot better.
>>160543181
>Shirou cums inside Rin so he can get more energy to use UBW
Why didn't you read version for kids like yourself?
>>160542984
Half of them are just trolling, what did you expect?
>>160543237
Even if it was through some other dumb way like that it's still retarded. The idea that he can use UBW THAT effectively against fucking Gil is ridiculous.
>>160540940
It would have been fine if Shirou had kept it to shooting swords at Gil since that was the one area where Unlimited Blade Works surpassed Gate of Babylon. Directly crossing swords with a B-class strength servant is just not possible. Shirou's arm should have been sent flying or the very least get broken the moment the swords touched.
>>160543281
>Why did Gil throw only swords at Shirou ?
No? Are you blind?
>Iirc Shirou can't trace weapons other than swords
You are retarded as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFCGgRW00Y
>>160543281
>Shirou can't trace weapons other than swords
Are you a fucking serious? This nigga traced the shield to activate unlimited blade works there. His main arrow he uses is a lance he modified.
>>160543474
Tracing also give ability to properly wield weapon, including strength requirement associated with weapon legend.
>>160543335
It doesn't work like that though does it, from the way I understood it you synchronize with each other allowing you to transfer mana between each other meaning you can only at best combine the mana in a single person.
>>160540940
Can Shirou copy EA?
>>160543709
No.
>>160543181
>>160543335
>Nasu: I had absolutely no confidence in the erotic bits back then. I didn't even feel the need to put erotic parts in my own stories, so I never even thought about them. When I realized that the game's genre would be in that area, though, I realized it needed sex-related scenes. The thing I feared more than anything else was whether or not I'd be able to write something that would actually turn people on. ... "Writing" is actually a very weak force in the doujin world. If you really want people to read your writing, then you need to come up with a few tricks to pull them in. So the way I looked at it was if I added visuals, made it a game, and then on top of that, added erotic elements, then I'd maybe get 1 out of 10 people to look at it.
>Nasu: I had no confidence. I told Takeuchi, "I'll leave the erotic bits to you. You can think about the situations, the flow, everything." So Takeuchi would sketch something up and show me. "It's going to start like this, continue like this, and finish like this." "Yes, sir!" I said, and just wrote what he told me to. Erotic parts are hard.
>Editor: Interesting. So Takeuchi really did all the erotic parts.
>Nasu: He also thought up the themes and everything else.
>Nasu: We thought about whether putting an erotic scene in during a life-and-death situation would make it more arousing. Shouldn't both Shiki and the player be thinking "Now isn't the time for this!?" It had the possibility of ruining the flow of the story. But, on the other hand, there would be no point to an erotic scene if it wasn't in character. People often say that the main character in 「To Heart」 suddenly turns into a perverted old man during the erotic scenes, and I understand what they mean. It has to be erotic, but if it's too erotic then it destroys the story.
2001, about two years before Stay Night's core parts were fully written. Takeaways: Takeuchi ruins everything, 'erotic' parts really are/were tacked-on.
Gil should've been a woman.
>>160543709
He can try but it'll destroy him. That weapon is beyond his comprehension.
>Fatehaters are speedwatchers/speedreaders that complain about anything they don't understand
>Fatefags carefully study each page and comprehend the grand message of Nasu's work
>>160543817
>Loli gil
DICK NO!
>>160543709
It is explained that he can't copy swords that weren't made in the human dimension Excalibur and EA are the only ones I remember it mentioning, he is able to trace Avalon despite that for obvious reasons.
>>160540940
Plot armor, to begin with Shirou had no business evoking a goddamn noble phantasm like that and being able to sustain it that long.
Also even if you want to go the whole "Gilgamesh only knows how to own weapons but can't use them" he'd still be far above Shirou in swordsmanship and his weapons would cut Shirou's replicas like butter since they're still the real thing, even his body at its lowest it's still a servant body provided by the Grail and still much stronger than a teenager's one.
Basically the entire fight was bullshit dictated by plot convenience.
Servants are as fast and strong as the plot demands them to be.
They can move faster than humans can see and benchpress trucks except when a main character needs to beat one. Then they're just humans with magic weapons.
>>160543870
>Inb4
>But he traced excalibur
no he didn't, he traced caliburn to beat herc.
>>160543572
>including strength requirement
That was only when Shirou had Archer's arm. Swinging Caliburn in Fate route fucked up his arm real bad due to his body not being able to keep up with Saber's abilities.
>>160543868
They're genderbending everything, so why can't we have a Gilgamesu already?
>>160543906
>Plot armor, to begin with Shirou had no business evoking a goddamn noble phantasm like that and being able to sustain it that long.
>and his weapons would cut Shirou's replicas like butter since they're still the real thing,
Did you all just not read the VNs or what?
>>160540980
Because people today think they're too savvy for that kind of thing.
>>160540940
>magical hologram
>demigod
>>160544003
Yes and it's stated that noble phantasms burn through mana like nobody's business which is the reason why humans can't use them unless you have something else providing mana for you, or you're a freak sorcerer/ress.
And Shirou can't reproduce the real weapons or it'd melt his brain, the best he can do is create replicas with some of the original's powers or make up his own, which would be far below the real treasures Gilg can pull out of hiss ass.
>>160543181
>taking FATE fags seriously
>ever
You have better lack reasoning with naruto fags about Madara
>>160544003
>HURURURURURUU BAD ENDING MEANS NO PLOT HOLE HURURURUR
This is how you fucking sound like.
>>160540940
>No, he could only fight Gilgamesh because UBW is a hard counter to GoB.
>1) UBW could fire more NPs per second compared to Gilgamesh, because all the swords are already 'ready'. And thus Gilgamesh have to defend against stray NPs too.
>2) Shirou can instantly replace the weapons in his hand while Gilgamesh have to manually pull them out.
>3) Shirou could download the techniques, but his body can't keep up (even in HF), but Gilgamesh was only a owner, and have not mastered any of his Noble Phantasm like the other heroes did.
>Even with all those advantages, Shirou had to be relentless and strike while the iron was hot, because he knew if Gilgamesh regains composure he would be screwed, this was stated by Shirou himself.
>>160543958
Doesn't he use Excalibur to destroy the grail in normal end HF?
>>160543958
Didn't he trace excalibur at the end of Heaven's Feel?
>>160544148
>unless you have something else providing mana for you, or you're a freak sorcerer/ress.
So what's the problem? Did you actually read the VN?
>And Shirou can't reproduce the real weapons or it'd melt his brain, the best he can do is create replicas with some of the original's powers or make up his own, which would be far below the real treasures Gilg can pull out of hiss ass.
IT's bad writing here I'm sure but 90% of the power can still destroy it. They aren't armored or anything so he can destroy them. If you use a short sword you can destroy a long sword.
>>160544219
Calm down autism-kun
>>160543281
>Shirou can't trace weapons other than swords
he can trace any weapon other than AE, also is not that he can only trade swords ,but HIS IDEA of a sword (edge weapon)
ultimately Archer rarely trace shields cause its cost him 3 times the mana than SWORDS
>>160544259
Yes, and that's the #1 plot issue in the entire franchise, perhaps. It's gone completely unaddressed whereas everything else has gotten, at the very least, a handwave. Nasu has pretty openly admitted that Shirou vs Gil doesn't work if you actually visualize the scenario, which is why he had certain changes made to the anime adaptation; but, he has never acknowledged the inconsistency of the Excalibur tracing thing, as far as I know.
>>160544320
He traced rule breaker and nearly died doing so.
>>160544340
>he can trace any weapon other than Ea
"no"
>>160544320
>>160544259
Yea, that is also extremely bad writing. No one is arguing that nasu doesn't have bad writing my only way to justify that was him dying which is what would happen if he traced EA but he wouldn't be able to use the fucking thing. So yea despite not being able to he did it.
>>160544320
He did but he was half sword already at that point.
>>160544436
Stop writing the weapon's name like that. It's "Ea".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enki
>>160544148
Unlimited Blade Works is a Reality Marble. It may count as Archer's Noble Phantasm, but at the end of the day it is merely a magecraft possessed by Shirou.
>>160544417
he cant trace any weapons as long as he understand it (composion)
few cases he could not like EA or Jewel Sword cause those shit are beyond his or basically all human knowledge. not cause
>her derp, only swords
>>160544436
>which is what would happen if he traced EA
Tracing Ea is impossible, friendo.
>>160544628
You're too stupid to understand.
>>160544667
whatever helps you sleep Gil
I think I can beat Gil.
>>160544640
exactly that's the point. If they're held in the same regard as things he can't do then he shouldn't have even begun to trace excalibur.
>>160544259
No he didn't trace Excalibur, he only created a knock-off version with similar functionality. The VN doesn't even call the sword he traced Excalibur.
>>160544628
>>160544340
No, he can't trace Divine Construct like Excalibur, because his mind can't comprehend Divine Mysteries, it is also one of the main reason his traced NP are ranked down.
He can't even replicate the Kanshou and Bakuya that ascended to the realm of the gods.
> Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Noble Phantasms, p.134
>Q: If the original Kansho and Bakuya take the stage in the Holy Grail War, as the twin swords reaching the realm of Gods due to the sacrifice of human lives, will they possess powers as Noble Phantasms? Or, since they did not have wielders in the legend, thus cannot become Noble Phantasms?
>A: Absolutely without a doubt that they will be true Noble Phantasms. They will be extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms. Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike.
>>160544940
>he can't trace Divine Construct like Excalibur, because his mind can't comprehend Divine Mysteries,
did I stutter??
>>160544628
tho Excalibur he can make a damn near good copy and he can trace a perfect Avalon if I remember right
>>160544682
愚か者だ。
I will end all of the unsourced back-and-forth nonsense in this place in one move.
Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Projection [Magecraft], p.067:
>Shirou can only project things that are related to weapons in some way – or more specifically, swords. Modern weapons are off limits. Well, technically he can pull out shields or armor, too, if he strains himself to his utmost limits, but the effects only last for an instant and the cost is enormous.
Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Noble Phantasms, p.134
>Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW?
>A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.
Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Infinite Creation of Swords [Noble Phantasm], p.213
Infinite Creation of Swords [Noble Phantasm]
>In EXTRA, the conditions for where wrought iron is possible are boosted so projection of holy-sword class weaponry is possible, though their performance is inferior. Okay, truth is, I was surprised to find that the staff in charge of the 3D had made animation for Excalibur being projected while I was looking the other way. Well, it is new animation after all, and there's no reason to reject it. So long as it's a degraded version, I guess it's okay.
All ye who would defy Word of God - pass on.
>>160540940
Hubris, the downfall of both gods and man. This is a simple theme found in both myth and literature.
>>160543181
>>Shirou cums inside Rin so he can get more energy to use UBW
Except he didn't cum inside
>>160545137
To be fair the difference between them was a giant and an ant, you don't use a nuclear weapon against an insect you just push down with a finger.
>>160540940
First off, Emiya's thing is that he can copy any sword he sees. Gil's thing was that he has every single sword in his arsenal and just throws them at his enemies like candy.
Obviously, the more Gilgamesh uses his Gate of Babylon the more powerful Shiro's UBW gets.
Second, UBW is slightly better than GoB. It's faster and gives the user some skill with the weapons it creates.
>>160544818
>>160544846
This is true in the VN during the normal ending of heavens feel he says I'll hit it with the strongest noble phantasm and it flashes up a picture if Excalibur, you don't even get to see the weapon he projects just a flash of light. Ill agree its incredibly sketchy but you can argue he is just projecting his interpretation of it since he has witnessed it first hand.
>>160545256
Jokes on the giant, he was only an owner of the finger not a user
You fagtrons realize that "Can't trace Divine Constructs" shit got retconned years ago? Anything other than Ea is fair game now as long as he has a source that provides him enough mana to do so.
>>160545342
Nasu please.
>>160540940
Imagine being a human and be able to defeat a demigod
>>160545345
And if his brain doesn't melt trying to do that.
Though I recall him being in a doll now solved that issue ? I forgot.
>>160545345
No, it was still the case.
To even attempt do a legit replica, he would need to comprehend completely the divine mysteries, and have the materials. Even in the mooncell, he still can't get it close enough.
>>160545345
Mooncell=/=earth
Everyone is saying Gil isn't a user, what does that mean? From what I understand, Gilgamesh was really strong, even without any weapons. He defeated Enkidu in a fistfight. He just doesn't use his full power anymore, because MUH GAY FRIENDSHIP.
>>160545479
I thought this was about him being ABLE to do it, not if it's feasible to do so
>>160540940
Demigod is an arrogant prick who understimate everything.
Shirou/Archer is pretty much his counter.
Fate isn't about Powerlevel, hang yourself.
>>160541239
The LN is garbage, Nasu said so and you should be ashamed.
>>160540940
>Explain how a human beat a demigod
That demigod was also once a human who beat gods.
>>160545494
remember in dragon ball how when ginyu stole goku's body he wasn't able to fight with it as good as goku?
its like that. Gil hasn't mastered any of his weapons other than Ea. whereas Shirou gains mastery of what he traces since an obsessively detailed comprehension and analysis of them is the first step of the process
>>160543970
That was because he didn't learned proper tracing. And that was just a fluke.
>>160545539
Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Infinite Creation of Swords [Noble Phantasm], p.213
>[...]In EXTRA, the conditions for where wrought iron is possible are boosted so projection of holy-sword class weaponry is possible, though their performance is inferior.
Okay truth is, I was surprised to find that the staff in charge of the 3D had made animation for Excalibur being projected while I was looking the other way.
Well it is new animation after all and there's no reason to reject it. So long as it's a degraded version, I guess it's okay.
>>160540940
>Explain how a human beat a demigod
}
Two words: Gary Stu
>>160545529
>Fate isn't about powerlevel
Did someone said Solomon? Fuck off delusional fag.
>>160545494
Gil owns the weapons but because they're tied to the specific hero they were associated with he can't really summon their true powers and at best he can throw them around as really expensive projectiles.
He could also theoretically summon shit like a spaceship if he was so inclined, but he can at best throw it at his enemy's face instead of using its weapons to attack or piloting since he wouldn't know how.
>>160545649
Yes, but isn't Gil still 2/3 a God and ridiculously strong even physically, being able to fight Enkidu, a monster made by Gods? Even if he can't use swords properly, he should be just able to overpower Shirou. Or does tracing also enhance Shirou's physical abilities?
>>160545749
FGO is a mistake
>>160540940
Just because you're right doesn't mean you are correct.
>>160545795
He was piloting that ancient Indian spaceship in Fate/Zero, though. He was piloting it as well as Berserker, who had COMPLETE mastery over the plane he rode.
>>160545805
Gil is op as fuck too in FSN, only plot armor and bullshit can deal with him.
>>160541356
So if I say a stupid phrase I become more powerful than any antagonist?
The bones become dust,
Do the words are gone with the wind.
But my power has no limits
And only I can wield it
>>160541799
>anon doesn't know about Trace On
>>160545795
To be more accurate, Gilgamesh can't use techniques that the heroes could excute with their NP, partially because of the skill associated with it, and the legend attributed to them.
But he could use the inherent abilities from the NP.
And more importantly, he have the super prototype of the NP that would be associated with the heroes that wield them.
>>160545823
This.
Just because Gil is superior doesn't mean he's better.
>>160545529
>Fate isn't about powerlevel
We got some Canon Powerlevels now
>>160540940
A LB kaleidoscope+Waver+Merlin
>>160545843
Fucking Nasu and his retcons.
>>160545931
We already had them in the VN with the Stats sheet for each servant.
>>160545994
Yeah but now they're a number.
>>160546011
Shut the fuck up retard
>>160546011
Did he also add an ASSPULL proficiency to the characters ?
>>160546011
>implying E, A, C, EX, etc. aren't numbers
>>160542984
K, but can Shiki kill servants?
>>160541460
The ruby text used for many terminology deliberately gives alternate explanation.
Like Excalibur would be subtitled with the 'Sword of Promised Victory', Nine Lives Blade Works would be subtitled with "Shooting the Hundred Heads", etc, etc...
Its a popular chuuni trend to have chanting/incantation to have multiple meanings in one phrase.
>>160546037
>Golden-fur whiteface (Nine-tailed Tamamo / Amaterasu)
>387420489
>Seventh-stage Altera (White Titan)
>300000000
This is the future now.
>>160540940
Because UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS
Shirou can trace servants, discuss.
>>160545799
The difference comes from UBW Shirou just has to picture a sword and its there he gains complete mastery of it as a perquisite of him being able to trace it Gil however has to summon it which takes longer as a result Shirou can put more weight behind his attacks which is why his inferior copies manage to compete with Gils real Noble phantasms . If there was no lag period for Gil summoning his weapons and both attacked on an equal footing Gil would of destroyed Shirous copies and defeated him instantly.
>>160546204
Can Shirou trace himself after taking an anatomy lesson?
>>160545718
You just copied my post. What are you doing?
>>160546207
That is already summed up here:
>>160544243
>>160546232
Your own fucking post proves you wrong.
>>160546216
only while his body is >50% sword
>>160546216
I don't think he can understand the sheer bullshit that is his own body.
>>160545931
What is this supposed to be? You don't just post raw Japanese text on /a/ and expect people to understand. You're thinking of /jp/.
>>160546243
Yeah my bad reading through the thread it looks like some people are being purposely obtuse to force a circular discussion.
>>160546315
It's Nasu approved powerlevels about Extraverse characters put into a number. Amaterasu is the strongest.
>>160542452
And Shirou would have slaughtered him if Saber hadn't fucked the Reality Marble with her attack. What's your point?
>>160546458
That's fine, then, since Extra doesn't matter.
>>160546216
Jesus fucking christ, his entire life really is Unlimited Blade Works
>>160546207
Yeah, I understand that. That part has been explained multiple times in this thread already. I'm not talking about mastery of a weapon, though, I'm talking about physical strength. Say, for example, Shirou traces Guts' Dragonslayer. He can learn HOW to use it, but does he also get the physical strength needed to swing a large hunk of iron? Because no matter how superior your technique with a sword is, in face of raw power, that's hardly going to matter.
>>160545194
not until H/A
>>160541453
2. It was stated that NORMAL humans can never kill Servants, due to them being immaterial ghosts. You need magic/conceptual weapons to hurt them at all.
Drop a nuke on them and they will come out unscathed, but smack them with a level 1 fireball or, say, a metal rod that is connected to your own magic circuit, and it hurts them.
What was also stated, however, is that its generally fucking impossible for any modern magi to hurt godamn legendary Heroes of the past with their pussy ass magic, especially the knight classes that have bonus resistances.
Rin succeeds because she is a super mage, and also collected her super mana over the course of years into gems to ultra cheese beyond a typical mage's capabilities. Also, because she is pelting Berserker and Caster, not the Knights. For some unknown ironic reason, Caster isn't magic resistant.
3. He was probably holding her in check with GOB most of the time. The entire reasoning that only EMIYA can fight Gil is that both their abilities checkmate each other, the entire army vs army nonsense. Gil supposedly doesn't suck in melee against anything except EMIYA. Hell, he downed Lancer in an enclosed basement no problem too, and THAT guy had projectile resistance A or something, and is also better at melee than Saber.
4. Heaven's Feel is the most inconsistent and full of plot armor, because its a rushed route created by fusing two routes. Don't worry too hard about it.
>>160546645
>Heaven's Feel is the most inconsistent and full of plot armor, because its a rushed route created by fusing two routes
It's the climax of the whole game and you call it "rushed" route?
Seriously?
>>160546727
Because he's right, Nasu said they were running out of time during HF
>>160546727
I didn't say it was bad, or a bad conclusion to the story. I liked it just fine.
I called it a rushed work that was chock full of inconsistencies and "Author chucks his hand in to make the plot work" moments.
>>160545843
>He was piloting it as well as Berserker, who had COMPLETE mastery over the plane he rode.
No. Gilgamesh was piloting as vastly superior machine that is controlled via thought and laughs at the laws of physics. The fact that Berserker pulled even with a normal fighter jet can be attributed to either Gil being an exceptionally shitty pilot or Berserker being exceptionally skilled.
>>160546534
Different anon.
Probably? Since he was holding berserkers huge ass axe blade with one arm held up high (though it was the archer arm) and swung the blade 8 of 9 times with a body that was falling apart. He was probably reinforcing his body during that scene using archer's knowledge+heracles technique.
So in the scope of UBW route shirou might be able to do it since he kept paradoxing experience into himself while clashing with archer.
Really activates my almonds
>>160547111
Okay, that's understandable, then. If he's also gaining strength, then he should be able to keep up with a not serious Gil.
It's just that I don't remember that being stated anywhere. He was doing 20 meter high jumps in the anime too, moving fast as fuck and all sorts of other shit, but no one really ever established that, so it kind of felt asspully.
>>160547213
The anime made it looks more grandiose but in HF it was explained that archers use of reinforcement was flowing into him when he leap out from the castle window without breaking his leg and running a fucking marathon through the forest right after.
What I don't understand is why didn't Illya use the grail to reach the root at the end of Heaven's Feel? What was the point in closing it? Would something bad have happened if she tried to reach the root?
>>160546645
>Rin succeeds because she is a super mage
Hahaha oh wow.
>>160546960
Berserker made the jet into a supernatural beast for all intent and purpose. It can perform maneuvers that can crush into paste any pilot, it have missiles that can perform all sorts of maneuvers, and its countermeasure system is turned into a massive fireball.
....
>The twin turbofan engine, receiving Berserker's alien power, gave off a monstrous roar. The
black F15 used its acceleration to exponentially increase its relative velocity, breaking
through a gap in the tightly-knit screen of Noble Phantasms.
>Just as they were about to hit, the black F15 writhed its ailerons and flaps like a living
creature, escaping the blade edges of Archer's Noble Phantasms with aerodynamically
impossible abruptness. With a second, then a third barrel roll, the barrage of Noble
Phantasms scattered away into the sky. The intense G's of the first spin was enough to
instantly kill Captain Ōgi in the cockpit, rupturing his internal organs; but of course, this was
just a trifle for Berserker.
>The mad black knight roared. As if echoing his malicious call, the front stabilizers of the two
Sparrows suddenly twisted and once again they bared their fangs towards the Vimana which
had evaded the first attack. Even the electronic radar-guided missiles have been transformed
into magic weapons that chased the subject of Berserker's hatred like hounds.
...
...
>This contraption, Flare Dispenser, was originally shot out as decoy heat sources in order to
throw off the enemy’s heat-sensing weapons. However, after being eroded by Berserker’s
prana and maddened, it metamorphosed into cruising fire bombs. Based on the air fight
earlier, Archer had long ago surmised that the enemy doesn’t have a way of attacking his
back, and therefore couldn’t react to this sudden counterattack on time. The Vimana plunged
into the hive of roaring fire balls, lost control while surrounded by crimson flames, and fell
towards the river surface in a spiral.
>>160548069
excellent post formatting
>>160547969
The grail was still corrupted. She had to close it to prevent the birth of true Angra Maiyu.
>>160545984
What retcons? That anon was making up shit
see:>>160545910
also see: https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2098/
Gilgamesh using the various NP's abilities
>>160548247
Oh so can the corrupted grail not be used as originally intended then? I thought that Angra would only be born if you just left the grail to do its thing, and that if Illya wanted to she could stop Angra while still using all the built up magical energy to reach the root.
Although to be honest I don't even know what reaching the root even does, so maybe it's not something that Illya even cares about.
>>160547969
>>160548411
I don't think it was really explained much, from what I remember. Technically, what exactly closing the doors means is a mystery because Shirou doesn't know much and blacks out before he can see anything. I like to imagine that Ilya in HF survived somehow. The Heaven's Feel true magic is all about preserving the soul after all. But it's just wishful thinking. The Ilya in H/A knew she couldn't live outside the dream.
>>160540940
Hope and love
>>160548069
So it's a F15, a contemporary fighter jet operating at its theoretical limits and armed with D rank noble phantasms going up against the Vimana, a piece of physics-defying ancient indian super science armed with the gate of babylon.
The Vimana somehow managed to lose.
Gil is a great pilot.
Flawless logic.
>>160540940
Everything leading up to that moment lead to Shirou greatly surpassing human limits with no drawbacks.
1. He has Avalon inside of him so he's got a powerful artifact giving him regeneration.
2. Avalon changed his origin to "sword" so his (un)natural strength lies with swords
3. He formed a tantric link with a very talented magus (Rin) which provided him with far more mana than he would usually have
Now I know all you western kids go all "Hurr durr sex" but tantra is not a foreign concept to easterners, it appears in both Hinduism and Buddhism so try to step out of your Christian comfort zone
4. He used paradox hax to absord EMIYA's abilities and experience. Think about two waves oscillating at different frequencies. One is like a high intensity gamma ray and the other is like a slow radio wave. What happens when the high intensity wave meets the slow one? Bam, that's pretty much what happens to Shirou.
5. Shirou spent years autistic creating artificial magic circuits in his body, something no sane mage does. Usually it's pointless and dangerous but in UBW, Shirou realizes he can switch all of them on at the same time and get a much higher throughput of mana from Rin which gives him enough power to create a reality marble
All of the things fall into place which gives Shirou the ability to go one-on-one with one of the most powerful servants and come out the victor.
>hurr durr PLOT convenience
There are an infinite amount of timelines where he gets squashed like a bug before doing anything, you're watching one of the timelines where miracles happen.
>>160542452
Gil got saved by the grail, Shirou was about to kill him. Stop being such a blatant secondary shithead.
>>160549157
>saved
The grail ate him
>>160549207
Yeah, but the grail trying to eat him is the only reason he didn't get murdered by Shirou. It gave Gil the chance to grab Shirou with Enkidu and try to save himself. That's the only reason Archer had to intervene.
>>160548949
Wrong series.
>>160549275
In the anime, at least, the opposite of that happens. Shirou runs out of mana before he could deliver a finishing blow on Gilgamesh, and just as Gil is about kill a defenseless Shirou, the Grail intervenes. He grabs Gil and tries to consume him, and only then does Gil use Enkidu to save himself from being consumed by Grail, not to save himself from Shirou.
I don't know how it goes in the VN, the only place I could quickly check for this was the wiki, and the wiki doesn't say anything about Grail saving Gil from Shirou.
>>160549784
>In the anime
Yeah, the anime fucked it up badly. Gil gets bailed out by the grail in the VN. Shirou was about to finish him off before the grail interrupted.
>>160549095
Gilgamesh was swooping in to attack from the back, figuring that a jetfighter's weakness is that it can't attack from the back. So he put himself ground zero within the fireball's blast.
nothing was said about Gilgamesh being a great pilot considering the ship was controlled by thought.
The Vimana was more of a flying throne or temple in the legends. Hence why Gilgamesh was attacking using GoB instead of using any onboard weapons.
>>160540940
Half servants in grail wars were normal humans in life. If they could fight like that, so could other normal humans.
>>160546960
Gil was just playing around with him as usual.
>>160549306
I swear Mashu's tits get bigger every time they draw her
>>160549843
>the anime fucked it up badly
No, the anime corrected the great mistake of pretending that it was a feasible accomplishment. Nasu has said as much. He said, explicitly, on record, that Shirou's defeat of Gilgamesh does not work in a real visual medium.
>>160550370
That's one of the earliest drawings of her, though. I think.
>>160550370
That's her NP. The more she wants to mate with Senpai, the larger her breasts grow.
Gilgamesh is a relatively poor fighter due to GoB and Ea taking care of all his problems. Shirou has the perfect counter to GoB and Gil's defective personality lets Shirou prevent him using Ea. With neither option, Gil is in good position to get ruined. Stupid fucking secondary.
>>160540940
>Explain how a human beat a demigod
Many things come together as one to make it happen. It starts with Enkidu. Gilgamesh was so gay for Enkidu that he decided to not use his Godly strength against anyone but him. Only Enkidu gets to pounded by Gil at full force. That brought down his level significantly. Next comes Archer. When Shirou fought Archer, a lot, if not all of what Archer experienced over an eternity, all powers he gained, were transferred to Shirou when they fought. That leveled up Shirou by a shit ton. At this point, Gilgamesh is significantly weaker, while Shirou is getting stronger, strong enough to have saved the world from humans countless times.
Then comes Rin. She fucked him. She made Shirou's sword harder. This gave him ridiculous levels of mana. Tohsaka family is pretty much THE most prominent mage family. This also levels up Shirou. He's even more stronger now. Next is Gilgamesh himself. He doesn't use his full power against anyone, but against Shirou, he took that to a whole new level. On multiple occasions when he had the chance to kill Shirou, he did nothing, he paid no mind. He didn't see Shirou as even a bread to eat and forget, he didn't even see Shirou. That was a huge mistake.
Finally, we have Unlimited Blade Works. The move that Shirou should only have AFTER he dies. This move is basically as OP as Gate of Babylon. It gives Shirou any weapon he traces, it gives Shirou the skills and power needed to use that weapon, and it does that faster than Gate of Babylon. It has its limitation, though. It requires more mana to use, and it takes more time to initially use it with that long ass chant, and it can only produce weapons as far as I know.
With of all of this combined, this human managed to beat a demigod. It was full of all sorts of unfairness. If Shirou had cared about fairness and let Gil bring out the real guns, similar to how Gil let Shirou use UWB, Shirou would dead. So fuck fairness.
tl;dr Gil was just slothful.
>>160551355
so you're saying it's an asspull
>>160551454
Asspull would imply that this stuff just came out of nowhere. But Gil's arrogance was already pretty well established from the moment he was introduced and UBW was introduced beforehand with all the Archer stuff
>>160545618
>LN
fucking retarded secondaries