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Iskandar vs Gilgamesh

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Can we talk about this for a second?
I have my favorite but I'm not gonna take sides here, I just want some well thought opinions.

Could anyone else but Gilgamesh defeated Iskandar in that Holy Grail?
Could any other hero that showed up in the series so far be able to defeat Iskandar?
Could Gilgamesh defeat Iskandar had he not both Ea and Enkidu's holy chains?
We all know Gilgamesh is pretty OP, but how OP is Iskandar? In the same way Gil has his treasures, how powerful Iskandar heroes compare?
I dont think this part was ever fully explained but as far as I know every soldier in Iskandar's army is supposed to be a servant.
How does that compare to Gilgamesh possession of thousands of noble phantasms?
>>
>>160246842
I can basically answer all your questions with one answer.

Summoning an army as a NP is pretty shit, simply because so many Noble Phantasms are able to wipe out an army in a heartbeat. Excalibur being one of them, but surely not the only one. Excalibur Galatine is supposed to be even better when it comes to destroying large groups of enemies.
>>
>>160246842
>Could anyone else but Gilgamesh defeated Iskandar in that Holy Grail?
Did you watched with your ass? Iskander couldn't do a thing to Caster.
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>>160246842
Any Servant with an Anti-Fortress or Anti-Army NP could wreck his army.
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>>160246973
But would Excalibur be able to take down the entire army?
I mean there is a lot of servants in his army.
Would everyone just stand there and take it?

>>160247126
Iskandar wasnt fighting Caster alone.
Are you saying Caster is even more OP than Iskandar?
Could he have defeated Gilgamesh then?
>>
>>160246842
>Could anyone else but Gilgamesh defeated Iskandar in that Holy Grail?
Saber, and maybe caster
>Could any other hero that showed up in the series so far be able to defeat Iskandar?
Saber, medusa, heracles, EMIYA, cu chulainn.
>Could Gilgamesh defeat Iskandar had he not both Ea and Enkidu's holy chains?
Easily
>We all know Gilgamesh is pretty OP, but how OP is Iskandar? In the same way Gil has his treasures, how powerful Iskandar heroes compare?
Very shit
>I dont think this part was ever fully explained but as far as I know every soldier in Iskandar's army is supposed to be a servant.
Low rank servants
>How does that compare to Gilgamesh possession of thousands of noble phantasms?
Not even close
>>
>>160246973
They're not just a random army, they all are Heroic Spirits.

>>160246842
I kind of want to say that Gae Bolg would dispatch him in a second, army or not, but he has A+ luck so I guess that's fucked.
Anyway, Saber or Caster would probably be able to dispatch him. Excalibur is an anti-fortress NP.
>>
>>160247295
You don't need to take down the entire army. Ionioi Hetairoi is maintained by all the soldiers composing it, take out a chunk and it starts to break down.
>>
>>160247295
>But would Excalibur be able to take down the entire army?
Probably, but that's not even the issue there. No need to take out the whole army, you just have to take out Iskandar. Even Gae Bolg would be enough, if Cu didn't have such shit luck.
>>
Karna, Arjuna, and Rama could easily solo the lot of them
>>
>>160246842
The only thing Iskandar could beat is the shitty army assassin. Nearly every servant in the 5th grail war would body him pretty hard, save for fake assassin/real assassin since his magic resistance is fucking shit.
>>
>>160247542

Iskandar was a pretty high tier servant in terms of stats, though. He one shotted Lancelot.
>>
>>160247321
>>160247451
Cu can just use his "1v1 me mate rune" and then rape him in close combat even without Gae Bolg.
>>
>>160247276
I don't think that because its called "anti army" literally means it can destroy armies, anon.
>>
>>160247487
What is the deal with Karna anyway?
What makes him so powerful
>>
>>160247276
pic unrelated? She is officially shit tier according to Extella and Nero can only beat Iskandar buffed with her regalia.
>>
>>160247542
He bested Altera in combat once he was used to Mooncell. He could only be bested by another top Servant (Gil, Artoria) or a shittier servant with a regalia (as Nero) which grant them special buffs and powers from Mooncell.
>>
>>160247542
>Nearly every servant in the 5th grail war would body him

Caster and Gil maybe.
Lancer, Saber and Berserker? Fuck no.
>>
Iskandar noble phantasm doesnt make sense to me.
They are all supposed to be servants but does none of them have special weapons like actual servants?
Like Saber has her Excalibur, Lancer has his mana cancel lance.
Does none of the servants in his army has unique weapons like that? Is Iskandar sword also just a sword?
>>
Because, every servant after Zero is as broken OP as Gil. Later servants make Gil look weak.
>>
>>160247786
Oh no, Medusa would beat Iskander. His Magic rank is too low to resist Cybelle and Bellerophan could remove a large chunk of the army.
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>>160247753
He's a Curry, Curries are OP. They made DBZ before DBZ.
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>>160247321
Reminder that human stated village boy Angra Mainyu is a heroic spirit, the title doesn't mean much. None of his army has skills or noble phantasms and 99% are probably shit tier grunts.
>>
>>160247695
Read the VN you fucking loser.
>>
>>160247850
>Lancer
Thrown Gae Bolg nukes the entire field
>Saver
Excalibur, same deal.
>Berserker
Lolgodhand. it'd take a long time but he would slowly yet surely destroy the army, if it doesn't break from the time limit first.

Of all the 4th and 5th Fuyuki servants, the only ones 4th Rider can certain kill are the Assassins, Lancelot, and Diarmuid.

Not even gonna discuss Rider v Rider
>>
>>160247850
>Lancer, Saber and Berserker? Fuck no.
You can't beat Herc with fodder. Lancer and Saber both have anti-army NPs for fuck's sake.
>>
Why is Rider Achilles so based while Rider Iskander is so lame?
>>
>>160247753
Hindus were chuuni as fuck with their religion.
>>
>>160247850
Cu has a anti army NP and most of the heroes in Iskanders RM would die before they could take one life of Herk. There's then Medusa who completely counters Iskander in very way. Only Saber would have problems but that can be countered by EoS Fate Saber since she has avalon.
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>>160248827
>Only Saber would have problems
Excalibur gg.
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>>160248686

> Be Rider Achielles
> Be a two bit Gilgamesh rip off
>Talk shit to Saber and Berserker
>Get your ass handed to you by Archer and retreat like a bitch

Unlike Achilles, when Iskander was introduced he didn't run away with his testicles tucked between his ass cheeks.
>>
>>160247636
Not like raw stats ever meant anything. Medusa goes from weak as hell to high tier with +1 STR END, and AGL, and -1 LUC. That's a net increase only 2 bloody points.
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>>160248744
but they were just aliens with nukes
>>
>>160248846
Iskander already dodged it once which is why I'm putting her in the maybe, but avalon counters his army hard so it's a moot point.
>>
>>160248908
It wasn't so much the points, but that she then had a stable source of mana to draw on.
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>>160247786
>She is officially shit tier according to Extella
>according to Extella
>Extella

No.

>"She possesses agility, skills, several Noble Phantasms worthy of the Rider class and is easily among the top Servants in terms of overall ability"

Source: Fate/Character Material
>>
>>160248981
Saber doesn't need Avalon to counter his army hard. Excalibur will kill most of the soldiers and the RM would end way before any of them could even get close to Saber.
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>>160248864
He's a Cu knock off, get it right anon.
>>
>everyone has Magic Resistance out the wazoo
Why are Casters even a class in the Grail Wars?
>>
>>160246842
>Could anyone else but Gilgamesh defeated Iskandar in that Holy Grail?
Yes. Anyone with Beamspam on a decent level would win so Arturia would have won with Excallibur.
>Could any other hero that showed up in the series so far be able to defeat Iskandar?
Yes. A metric fuckton could. Again, anyone with decent beamspam.
>Could Gilgamesh defeat Iskandar had he not both Ea and Enkidu's holy chains?
Yes. He used Ea because Iskander had earnt its use. He could have GoB'd down Iskander's army no sweat. And he only allowed him to get near enough to use Enkidu at close range out of respect for Iskander. Iskander had earnt the right to have Gil's most precious treasures used on him
>We all know Gilgamesh is pretty OP, but how OP is Iskandar? In the same way Gil has his treasures, how powerful Iskandar heroes compare?
Pretty fucking OP if a servant lacks Anti-Army or Anti-world phantasms
>How does that compare to Gilgamesh possession of thousands of noble phantasms?
They range from being really strong to quite weak. However they all lack Noble Phantasms. They just have raw stats so they are no where near as OP as Gil's GoB contents
>>
>>160248981
She wasn't fighting him seriously she realized he didn't take Iri, just fired a shot to tell him to fuck off. Otherwise she would've gutted him when he was stuck on foot.
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>>160249160
The best casters are from the Age of God, MR does nothing against that.
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>>160249160
>he doesn't make things with magic to fight physically

heretics
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>>160247637
That rune is OP but it has a severe range restriction on it. Iskander would have to be rather close for it to work.
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>>160249160
For the muscle mages.
>>
>>160247850
Saber would easily have fucked him with a single Excalliblast

Berserker would trash his entire army becuase nothing his army has can get past God Hand

Lancer can use Thrown Gae Bolg as a nuke and his "1v1 me bitch" rune to even things out.

Iskander's NP is powerful but easily countered by heroic spirits. I mean Cu and Herc had them defeating armies in their legends single handedly.
>>
>>160247753
mongrel jobber
https://youtu.be/5kiAcwtcfJ4?t=1m36s
>>
>>160248981
Anon, you dont dodge a full powered excalliblast thrown out in an arc. It would decimate nearly all of his army which would cause his RN to shut down.
>>
>Mana: C
Medusa beats Iskandar and his army "Cybele GG"
>>
Iskandar is such a shitty Servant.
>but he's top tier!
And yet he gets fucked over by so many other Servants.
>>
>>160249160
A good Caster won't be attacking with magic directly, they're best at sneaky shit.
Despite being the weakest Servant except Assassin, Medea came surprisingly close to winning the war in UBW with her Servant-recruiting shenanigans and her usurping the whole ritual.
>>
>>160249837
Iskander is the prime example of the:
>He is top tier, BUT...
trope.
>>
>>160249300
Yeah Medea can easily stomp Artoria.
>>
So I know that Gilgamesh(Archer) owns pretty much all noble phantasms but can he actually use them? As far as I'm aware he can only activate Ea and holy chains.
Every other weapon he just throws or handle it like a normal weapon on his hands.
Can he like pull Excalibur and activate its NP?
Shirou(Archer) seems to be able to do it and he is a "faker" so why cant Gil?

By the way how come Gil loses to Arturia in the very first Stay Night route?
Its been so long that I dont remember how that happened.
>>
>>160250023
Didn't he use some ice sword in Fate at some point?
>>
>>160249160
Anything other than Saber, Lancer, and (i think?) Rider was designed to LOSE. They just have enough settings/stats that the idiot mages stuck with them think they can win.
Eg Assassins can't attack without revealing themselves so that they can be attacked first instead of sneak attacking. That's by design to make them useless instead of an actually good class.
>>
>>160250023
He's only ever been shown to use their passive effects.
In SF he pulled out Merodach and was about to use it on True Archer before they got interrupted.
So for now it's just ???
>>
>>160249160
>Saber is supposed to be the most powerful, and Lancer and Archer are also known to be the strongest classes

Honestly I liked this series more when I thought everyone had equal chances.
Which sadly was never a thing and makes strategy useless.
>>
>>160250023
He can, he let Saber go after his Merodach beam got reflected by Avalon.
>>
>>160250189
Well in theory the three knight classes are supposed to be the strongest, but every single Grail War that's been written about goes off the rails hideously at some point, so the way stuff is "supposed" to go never pans out anyway.
>>
>>160250085
Saber/Archer/Lancer (though usually Berserkers do better than Lancers for one reason or another) are the ones you're thinking of.
>Higher Base Container Parameters
>Magic Resistance
>>160250023
Avalon is how she won.
>>
>>160250023
He is proficient enough in all of their abilities. He cant bring the most out of them as their actual historical users can but he can still kick the shit out of folks with them

In the Fate route he uses three different weapons in a combo against Saber, each with different effects, which utterly body her.

In UBW he finishes off Berserker by firing Gae Bolg at him which homed in on Herc's heart.
>>
>>160250085
Its Saber/Lancer/Archer i.e. the "Knight Classes".

The other 4 are fodder.
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>>160250085
Rider was "oops, this class turned out better than we expected."
>>
>>160249300
Except god tier magic resists like Altrias. Medea was spell caster of highest tier, yet her spells just fizzled when they hit Saber.
>>
>>160248657
Wasnt it stated that Diarmuid could MAYBE win the grail if he hit and run?
>>
>>160250023
Gil does sometimes use limited versions of his weapons effects but he hasn't mastered them and he doesn't even know what most of the shit in his treasury does. Shirou by comparison cheats hard by copying the memories of the wielder, so he knows how to use his NPs even if he can't get to the level of their original users.
>>
>>160249901
Territory creation alone gives them big edge.
>>
>>160250377
Nasu outlined some improbable method he could use to win the 4th yeah. It relied on baiting conflict between Berserker and Gil and using his Gae Whatever to keep inflicting unhealing wounds on people and running away.
It would require Kayneth not to be a total dipshit though.
>>
>>160250377
We are talking Cu here.
>>
>never read Apocrypha
>thinks Siegfried and Karna are pretty powerful and can win against everyone else
>suddenly Achilles

Is every Greek hero in this universe the most OP shit or what?
Nasu must have a hard on for that mythology in particular.
>>
>>160250753
Its not that every Greek is OP.

Its just that Herc and Achillies are the most OP of the Greeks.

Most of it is down to the fact that the Greek Gods used to give out blessings like candies to people so that they could fight for their petty amusement.
>>
>Gilgamesh
I fucking hate this punk ass. When are we gonna get someone who can beat the living crap out of him, turning him into the bitch he is?
>>
>>160250753
Nasu has a hardon for every other mythology but his own country's.
>>
>>160249414
Meanwhile the curries were soloing the infinitely-regenerating demon pillars, with Karna and Arjuna even turning it into a hunting contest.
>>
>>160250924
I dont know anon. Tamamo is really fucking powerful.
>>
>>160250753
Karna as a Servant is actually horribly gimped since using any of his NPs in any meaningful way is likely to kill you. Give him enough mana though and things suddenly turn cataclysmic for anyone fighting him.
>>
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>>160248744
Not just their religion, everything about their civilisation looks like a JRPG.
>>
>>160251138
Someone called Karna's mythology basically the Indian shonen story, and damn if it isnt true.
>>
>>160250469
>the only 4th servants
Hence why I asked
>>
>>160249924
As if Arturia isn't. Has she ever done anything other than jobbing?
>>
>>160247850
Cu Chulainn's specialty is soloing armies. He literally stopped Medb's armies solo. Gae Bolg's throw, his anti-army specialties and his runes would let him fuck up Iskander's army.
>>
>>160251293
Loads. She has the highest servant kill count accross both wars.
>>
>>160248014
Fate/Strange Fake says hi.
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>>160250842
This dude ever beat up Gil?
>>
>>160251344
Well yeah, she participated in both of them unlike everyone else. Unless you count Gilgamesh as a servant in FSN. Of course she does.
>>
Can't Iskander position his army wherever? If he completely surrounds someone chances are they're fucked.
>>
>>160246973
But if they're an army of heroic spirits, then technically, won't the heroic spirits each have their own noble phantasm?
>>
>>160247310
>EMIYA

Explain shit
>>
>>160251533
>Not simply believing in the based EMIYA.
>>
>people saying Saber can take on Iskandar NP
Except she pisses herself in fear thinking that not even Excalibur NP would be enough.
>>
>>160247310
>Could Gilgamesh defeat Iskandar had he not both Ea and Enkidu's holy chains?
>Easily

lol I dont think you can suck Gil's dick harder than this.
>>
>>160247786
I really don't think Nero would need the Regalia. She's just been fortunate enough to have her powerlevel scaled down to videogame format only.

If you look at her abilities, she is completely and utterly broken. A skilled master could absolutely use her to win a war:

>Imperial Privilege EX Rank means she can use any personal skill of any servant. Even ones that temporarily transform her body (like borrowing the power of the Gods with Divinity, this is how she became Saber Venus.) The only downside is she can only use one skill at a time and will suffer a severe migraine after a certain period. But when you can give yourself an ability, who the fuck cares about a headache?

>Noble Phantasm is literally "that kid" the NP. Grants her a Golden Theater that is super not a reality marble so cant be EA'd away. Works as an anti-army (guess what Iskandar's NP is?) Gives the enemy every disadvantage whilst giving her every advantage and is LITERALLY DESIGNED PURELY TO HELP NERO ACHIEVE HER ASPIRATIONS. Like the entire NP is pure wish fulfillment. It's bullshit.
>>
>>160251766
>implying he wouldn't

lol I dont think you can suck Iskander's dick harder then this.
>>
>>160251674
She doesnt do that at all and it would be more than enough.

Iskander is just as wary of her after witnessing her excalliblast.
>>
>>160251766
He didnt need either to win. He used them because Iskander had proven himself worthy of their use
>>
>>160251766
>True Nine Lives
>Ig-Alima
>Sul-sagana
>any combination of the above
>>
>>160251382
Nah. Despite what any Alcidesfags might say, their fight turned out the same way as Herk vs Gil in UBW before Gil started pulling out the good shit.
>>
>>160251812
Them you can say I sucking a bunch of servants dick because I'm sure Gilgamesh cant beat a lot of them without Ea and Enkidu's chains.
Even Shirou beat his ass.
Stop sucking his dick and you will see.
>>
>>160252009
See >>160251905

Stop being fucking retarded. Even without Ea, Gil has enough firepower in his vault to completely destroy a continent.
>>
>>160251293
She tanks Gae Bolg,takes Berserkers life with a C ranked noble phantasm,kills Rider,kills Gilgamesh 1v1,fights Lancer with only her left hand without a problem,kills Berserker,kills Caster.She has only lost to Gilgamesh without Avalon and Shadow.Would have also been able to nuke Hercules if she had enough mana like she did in Heavens Feel.
>>
>>160251880
>She doesnt do that at all

Read the novel.
>>
>>160251410
Fun fact: The only time she ever kills any servant without any type of help or interference is in SN, not Zero.
>>
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>>160252009
>even Shirou under very specific circumstances that Nasu went on record to say it was a once in a lifetime thing beat him and still had to get his ass bailed at the last second by Angry Manjuu and Archer
>>
>>160252068
I have, secondary. She was impressed but not scared.
>>
>>160251905
>He didnt need either to win

Then please enlighten me in how he would do that.
Unless you expect to be taken serious by just your words alone.

>>160252044
Nigga you are the one acting retarded if you can he can destroy a continent.
Are you 12 or what?
>>
>>160251382
>>160250842
That dude is actually Hercules summoned as an Archer.

Gil cannot do any damage to him and Herc keeps mocking him and telling him to bring out Ea if he even wants to stand a chance.
>>
>>160251533
>UBW
His army and chariot are crushed under infinite sword rain. Iskander is fucked.
>Caladbolg BP
A bit trickier but without his Servant's having their own NPs Emiya can just snipe at shit and it wil die. Iskander is fucked.
>Hrunting
Same as above but the arrow is fucking homing. Iskander is fucked.

>>160252087
You do realize Gil is the one who got bailed in the VN right? Shirou was gonna score the kill when the Grail sucks him in.
>>
>>160252102
>straight up lies
>call me the secondary
Okay.
>>
>>160252167
That entire fight really feels like a flip version of their fight in UBW, with Gil even protecting his master.
>>
>>160252087
The fuck? Shirou had completely defeat Gilgamesh before Angry Manyu even showed up to consume him.
>>
>>160251981
So that shit about Gil needing Ea to take him on was a bluff?
>>
>>160252264
Not only that, but Shirou was about to rip his arm off, thus Archer didn't need to save him, he was only there to save Rin who would have died.
>>
>>160250753
Greek heroes are great. Illiad is filled with them.

I hope we see Hector and Patroclus.
>>
>>160252264
He ran out of fucking mana.
>>
>>160250842
What I hate about Gilgamesh the most is all the entry level fags thinking he is the best shit ever.
Dude is fighting martial artists with a gun.
>>
>>160246842
Saber
>>
>>160252161
How? GoB spam until sucess. Shit isnt difficult.
>>
>>160252277
Considering he can steal NPs, probably.
>>
>>160252161
Nasu is the one who stated he had enough firepower to destroy a continent, you dirty secondary cunt.
>>
>>160252378
I can't wait for the gilfags to get salty again when HF movies hit.
>>
>>160248308
>>160249120

Only in your headcanon right? Nasu already classified non Grand Servants in Extella, including Medusa. Top Servants Mooncell can summon: Iskandar, Jeanne (for defense), Karna, Artoria and Gilgamesh. Altera is counted in the group too.

Medusa is not. All her previous 'lore' has been outdated and powercrept because Gorgon exists, and thus vanilla Medusa is meant to be shitty.
Nero and Tamamo have Mooncell regalia to put them on par or higher situationally.

>>160251791
Nero literally admitted she would have been defeated without regalia. Iskandar is a "top Servant" according to Mooncell while she's not. Nero needs her buffs to pull her weight. Her NP doesn't do shit impressive without the regalia boost either.
>>
>>160252264
No he fucking didnt.

Shirou was out of prana after removing Gil's arm and unable to fight anymore. Gil acknowledged how close Shirou was to killing him and was about to kill Shirou before the grail decided to suck him in.
>>
>>160252416
With Ea you stupid fuck.
Without that he is nothing.
>>
Why is everyone forgetting that Iskandar has the chariot, which is Pegasus tier?
Why is everyone underestimating the army when it provably has servants more powerful than Iskandar?
Why is people saying that Excalibur can wipe the whole army when it has never wiped such a large surface?
Why is people saying that Gae Bolg's nuke can wipe the whole army when it has never wiped such a large surface?
Why is people saying that Medusa's Pegasus can wipe the whole army when it has never wiped such a large area?
Even if they wiped the whole army Iskander is still flying in the chariot, they used their NP, what next?
>>
Cu in Ireland>Gilgamesh
>>
>>160252508
Without Ea, actually
You stupid cunt.
>>
>>160252486
That was only in the anime.
>>
>>160246842
Alex at best is an above average servant. He's good, but lacks the means to whack monsters and higher tier servants.

Giles with his tentacle monster easily whacks him even if he shat IH.
>>
>>160252527
All Medusa needs to do is look at Iskander and it's over.
>>
>>160250927
According to the ending, everyone was exhausted so all disappeared before Jeanne could send them off because they couldn't keep themselves materialized after the strain.

Only exceptions were Gil who lasted a little more and Jeanne who was also at her limits.
>>
>>160252428
>Gil spents 10 years chilling till next war just to get eaten by Sakura

I remember that part so clearly cuz of how fucking hilarious that was.
Can't even remember if he did anything relevant before that.
>>
>>160252528
>go to ireland to summon cu
>move back to japan for the world cup
>????
Why does nobody ever do something like that?
>>
>>160252508
>he fell for the Ea is anti-planet meme
>>
>>160247961
>but does none of them have special weapons like actual servants

Nigga that's exactly why he was begging Gil to join forces with him
>>
>>160252527
>Why is everyone forgetting that Iskandar has the chariot, which is Pegasus tier?
Destroyed before the fight in question
>Why is everyone underestimating the army when it provably has servants more powerful than Iskandar?
They arnt. However those heroic spirits lack any individual NP and are therefore no match to servants
>Why is people saying that Excalibur can wipe the whole army when it has never wiped such a large surface?
Excallibur can be fired in an arc
>Why is people saying that Gae Bolg's nuke can wipe the whole army when it has never wiped such a large surface?
It would destroy a huge chunk of the army and the army are the ones sustaining the RN
>Why is people saying that Medusa's Pegasus can wipe the whole army when it has never wiped such a large area?
They arnt. Same with above, Bellophron would do big damage but her main advantage is her Mystic Eyes which would fuck Iskander and his army over
>>
>>160252610
They need to be on the territory
>>
>>160252540
No it wasnt, dumbcunt.

Read the fucking VN.
>>
>>160252641
Makes sense desu senpai but what about space folding?
>>
>>160252479
He still doesn't pass the threshold for surviving Cybelles petrification. Just because he's a Top Servant doesn't mean he automatically stomps everyone that isn't.
>>
>>160252557
Did you play Extella?
Iskandar is a top Servant classified by Mooncell itself, not by a regular fag in internet. Unlike Cu, Medusa and other shitters. He just jobs as hard as Herk.
>>
>>160252659
How about you read it you fucking moron. Gil is grabbed by the grail while they where still in the reality marble just as Shirou was going to kill him. The reality marble was dispelled after that.
>>
>>160252690
>He still doesn't pass the threshold for surviving Cybelles petrification.
That's your assumption. Considering how he can travel at lightspeed by Extella bullshit, he could simply kill her before she even thinks.
>>
>>160252714
Can you call him top if he can't even stop a shitty tentacle monster?
>>
>>160252557
Well to be fair Giles noble phantasm is a book providing him with unlimited mana.
Meanwhile Waver is Iskandar's only source of mana.
Can you do the math?
Pretty much what it means is that Giles as caster is a self suficient servant, and Iskandar was summoned by a baby mage and had to make do.
>>
>>160252635
I agree that without the chariot he is not very strong, after all he is a rider class servant. But with the chariot + ionian heitaroi I don't see him losing easily.
>>
>>160252812
"shitty tentacle monster" could only be killed by excaliblast.
at least he was never beaten by a mediocre magus teenager with 2 days of magic training or a school teacher.
>>
>>160252590
Anyone would tire against an enemy that won't stay dead. Outside the temple, Arjuna nuked 20 of them at once and only died because he was holding it back.
>>
>>160252854
>I agree that without the chariot he is not very strong
He overpowers Altera physically without the chariot in his ending.

Big, famous and riped Zeus' son have been designed as jobbers in the franchise though.
>>
>>160252659
>…I don't know what this is.
>But it seems Tohsaka and Saber were able to destroy the Holy Grail.
>My only guess is that the aftereffect created the black void to eliminate Gilgamesh.
>"……Phew. Anyway, now…"
>Everything is over.
>My twin swords disappear.
>The magical energy in me fades away.
>>
Can we all agree that Gilgamesh would get his ass pounded wide open by Lancelot?
I mean even if Gilgamesh pulled Ea and the chains.
He can't take Ea for himself but as soon as the chains touched him he could just contaminate it with his NP and render it useless, or maybe even use it on Gilgamesh.
>>
>>160250023
He doesn't have ALL the noble phantasms, he have the base version of all the noble phantasm, He doesn't have Excalibur he have Gram, because Excalibur is a rip-off of Gram (whoever pulls this sword from this tree will be king). Shirou also notes he have the proto-Gae Bolg but it isn't the OHKO Gae-Bolg Cu have. Shirou (and Archer) are supposed to be better with weapons because they need to understand the wepon before making a copy, they beign able to "understand" the weapons just by watching them is pretty dumb, but it how its supposed to work. Gil just collect weapons but Shirou "understand" and copy weapons.
>By the way how come Gil loses to Arturia in the very first Stay Night route?
In Fate he gets Excaliblasted by Saber after she recovers Avalon, so she is literally immortal at that point.
>>
>>160252409
he was probably trying to bait Gil into using Ea so he could steal it
>>
>>160252968
Lancelot is fucked the moment Gil gets serious. I don't even mean Ea, he'd just have to spam GoB a little harder. Lancelot only has two arms, after all.
>>
>>160252364
Why would you want to see Ossan lancer? (Hector)
>>
>>160252878
They had a buff by the power of bonds/friendship to pull it off. The gameplay buff was too in the story, it was mentioned since Camelot and brought up again by Nasu. I'm not saying they weren't impressive and above other Servants, but they couldn't perform as well without that asspull. It was supposed to represent a miracle in general they could even survive that far (all Heroic Spirits not just them). And even so, they were all collapsing at the end, that couldn't keep their materialized forms.

I'm not trying to diss Arjuna or Karna, I'm pointing out that the circumstances were special and miraculous and normally this wouldn't have happened.

>Arjuna nuked 20 of them at once and only died because he was holding it back.
I'm pretty sure this was a mistranslation by the same idiot of reddit who got called out bullshit when they tried to do 'corrections' in Time Temple. I'll check it out tomorrow, but I distinctly remember it needed Edison and Tesla (plus the other Servants' assistance) to make it happen and could only happen after the main pillar that was supporting Cu Alter was defeated and weakened by Mashu, Rama and Nightingale team. The other pillars were dependent on it. Outside the time temple, the pillars become weaker and degrade over time unless they took precautions as Baal did.
>>
>>160252508
Ea is not anti army. It is anti world
>>
>>160252364
What would Patrokles' deal be? Copying the powers of allied Servants?
>>
>>160252508
>Without that(Ea) he is nothing
Its fun how he actually have more defeats than wins while he use Ea.
>>
>>160252794
It's numbers. Anything with C or lower Magic stats gets petrified, Iskander has C Magic.
>>
>>160247786
>Medusa
>Shit tier
Shes ironically one of the strongest servants in the 5th war but had the shittiest master in a war of shitty masters.

Mystic Eyes are a free win against 90% of servants and Bellerophon is literally full retard OP.
>>
>>160246973
>>160246842
EA is also anti-world, so it can also wipe away reality marble with proper usage.
>>
>>160251493
Narita: Here it is, the deployment of the King's Army at the midpoint of the War! Using an army of tens of thousands to crush less than a hundred Assassins is too much of an over-kill (laughs).
Haganeya: There were way too many people. It was great that so many showed up, but most of them went home without doing anything (laughs).
Nasu: The scary part is, some heroes in this army were stronger than the summoner Rider himself. Although Rider's deeds were great, it was not a testament of his personal martial prowess.
Sanda: So do they have basic Skills and Noble Phantasm as Servants?
Nasu: No, since they were summoned via Rider's skill, it was not necessary to assign them Class based on the rules of the Holy Grail War. However, since there is a limit to Rider's abilities, their Noble Phantasms could not be materialized. If Iskander's army of tens of thousands could pair up with Gilgamesh, who had unlimited Noble Phantasms, the result would be most ideal.
>>
>>160252527
>which is Pegasus tier
Its not even close to Pegasus even without factoring Medusa riding it.
That thing is literally stronger than dragons.
>>
>>160253515
>That thing is literally stronger than dragons.
Been a while since I read SN, but I thought it was mostly in regards to defenses that it was stronger than dragons and A+ as an anti army which was really strong and more than enough to chunk Iskanders army enough to destroy the reality marble
>>
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>>160253395
>However, since there is a limit to Rider's abilities, their Noble Phantasms could not be materialized
What if Rider master was something with unlimited pranna like Illya? would he be able to materialize noble phantasms for his army?
>>
>>160253605
It says abilities not magical energy.
>>
>>160250189
>>160249160
The Holy Grail War is a scam devised by the three families. Its actually the Holy Grail Ritual.
The actual goal is to have all the servants killed, idealy with command spells to make them kill themselves to fuel the grail system to have enough collected power to open a path to the Akashic Record/Root.

Because they realized they need a lot more servant than three and that mostly feasible for only one person to obtain the fruits of the grail's power. They invited outsiders to participate in the ritual, and disguised it as a battle royale.

Since they would rather have one of the three family obtain the grail, they deliberately designed the system to favour them with the three knight classes to have the advantage over outsiders.
But they kind of found out that factors like Noble Phantasm and other attributes plays a bigger role in how truly effective they are.
>>
>legendary conqueror that at a very young age brought the known world under his influence and actually existed
vs
>literal who based on mythos that did nothing but hoard some treasures

Japs incharge of powerlevels
>>
>>160253651
servant abilities get increased with better masters, Saber got all her stats buffed when she switched shirou for Rin/Sakura.
>>
>>160253605
No, since they were summoned in a RM not in a proper war, nothing was said that it was mana that limits it.
>>
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>>160253605
>What if Rider master was something with unlimited pranna like Illya? would he be able to materialize noble phantasms for his army?
I tend to think based on the phrase "Rider's abilities" and not Rider's mana. Also, Illya doesn't have unlimited mana. She just has a crapload of it. Berserker was causing her to almost be unable to move due to the strain because of no lesser grail helping her out.
>>
>>160253605
Pairing SN Illya with any high to top tier servant would be really unfair.
>>
>>160252364
Don't you mean Diomedes? the one that wounded Ares in direct battle?
>>
>>160253686
>Gil is a literal who
Fuck off burger.
>>
>>160253583
Defenses are on par with a Dragon since its the OG Pegasus, when she berserks it with Bellerophon it gains retard stats going above it.
I mean this is Nasu who shits out OP things one after another so its hard to keep a bearing of so many things that instakill people.
>>
>F/Z secondaries
Wow, it's like I'm back in 2012!
>>
>>160253182
Pashupata is instant kill NP so i think damage is irrelevant and i think Clan Calatin got wrecked before Cu Alter.
>>
>>160252208
Except he was right. Saber was far more concerned over the bonds that Iskander formed she couldn't get naturally when she witnessed the NP.
>>
>>160253686
>literal who
goddamn niggers posting in /a/
>>
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>>160253735
Small time, try taking his sword.
>>
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>>160253780
It's better than Apoc/GO shitposting. Sumanai
>>
>>160253801
>>160253749
compared to Alexander he is a literal who. You cant compare the two in terms of fame
>>
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>>160251766
Kek, what a retard.
Gil can just blow them to kingdom come with his toys.
Go suck rider's dick while yelling alalalalaleee with him.
>>
>>160253829
Going by your logic, Karna the guy who pushed back the weight of the universe should be weaker than Columbus.
>>
>>160253680
>Akashic Record/Root

So no one has managed to get there yet?
Also does that mean the grail is really useless considering they could just wish it to get them to the Root?
>>
>>160253829
Just because you went to a shitty ghetto school that taught you shit does not make him a literal who retard.
>>
>>160247786
Medusa vs Iskandar is literally one of the most lopsided fights you can have.

Any servant below B rank magic resist instalose against her. Hell even A rank you still get fucked by them.
>>
>>160253894
>Karna the guy who pushed back the weight of the universe
Why is this meme everywhere that shit never happen in Mahab
>>
>>160253686
What I never got is why in this series they call Gilgamesh the "eldest hero" when he clearly isnt.
Especially considering fictional heroes also count.
>>
>>160253829
>compared to Alexander he is a literal who. You cant compare the two in terms of fame
Fame bonuses are mostly regional and in Japan Alexander is less of a who than Gil, but they are both who's.
Secondly, older spirits are more powerful because as humanity has spread out the average human has gotten weaker because humanity's power is, although not a direct 1;1 ration, some degree of a zero sum game.
>>
>>160253899
With 7 Servants fed to it it opens a path to the root. With 6 you still have more than enough to grant a wish or two.
>>
>>160253795
>Bonds she couldn't get naturally
>When all her knights love her
>And the majority of the Round Table would commit inhumane slaughter in her name

Seiba is dumb.
>>
>>160253686
Gilgamesh was 2/3 god (sumerians believe that during a certain period if multiple fathers consummate somewhat around the same time frame with the same women, both of their attributes are inherited by the child also)

Not to mention, Gilgamesh was superhuman in the original legends too, and could literally have giant form.

Also in Nasuverse, it is also about how close you are to the root. And in Gilgamesh's periods, the gods had their some of the strongest influence on the world, before Gilgamesh played a role to reduce their influence.
>>
>>160253945
He is the oldest hero in terms of written records, not how old their story portrays them as.
>>
>>160253829
>amerifat education
>>
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>>160253981
Saber was literally too perfect for them
>>
>>160253981
Artoria had to play the role of a impartial King, upholding the ideals of fairness and justice. Which means she couldn't show favoritism.
It also means it is difficult form a natural two-way bond.
>>
>>160250842
Several servants can heavily fuck him up depending on opportunity because of side skills, using Gates of Babylon on Chiron for example would be absolutely retarded since he has an innate knowledge of everything on top of mastery of a lot of weapons and thus would be able to pin point a NP thrown by Gil that would completely change the fight since Gil doesn't really know the use of the NPs he throws at people, he just collects them and Chiron's legend would most likely allow him to get rid of his divinity if he wants to counter Enkidu.

Edison would also be able to severely gimp him because his own NP is made to turn mostly myth-based heroes into weak mongrels.

Given how hard they are wanking him up lately, Dantes would probably also be a good challenger. Fucker killed Roa because he was angry that he killed his favorite baker which is probably the most heinous thing you can do to a french guy, just make Gil shit on baguettes and he's dead.
>>
>>160253940
>Karnafags spouting bullshit
Not surprising. Karna was a faggot who only worked to seek other's approval. Literally fought for the wrong side just because they "recognized" him.

Arjuna is literally better in every way. Fight me Karnafags.
>>
>>160253899
There have been people that 'got there', but its complicated.

see:
http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/53399786/General%20True%20Magic%20and%20Root%20Information
>>
>>160254019
>>160253906
How fucking stupid are you? Pathetic losers that base their historic knowledge on a shitty anime made by a hack that rapes history at every turn. Gilgamesh is a literal who. I dont care how popular he is in your brown ass shithole of a country
>>
>gilfags exist
>>
>>160254194
Except in being a better warrior than Karna, being more righteous than Karna, and in being a cuck that had his wife (who he already shared with the rest of his brothers) say she loved Karna despite the fact he kept calling her out on being a ho right?
>>
>>160254420
>gets called out on his shitty education
>"n-no yours is shit!"
>>
>>160254527
>being educated is knowning about Mesopotamian myths
ok bro i guess you win this one
>>
>people trying to find any amount of continuity in a stupid fanservice franchise

Nothing makes any sense at all in fate universe as soon as you examine the fact that the "most powerful servant" lost to a literal human schoolteacher in a straight up 1v1 fight, which is what the saber class is supposed to be best at (except for maybe berserker?).
>>
>>160254194
>>160254502
Rama is the objectively superior Curry.
>>
>>160254502
Draupadi never loved Karna what the fuck are you talking about?
>>
>>160252714
This isn't DBZ you idiot. Being "top tier" doesn't mean you can't be beaten by someone lower tier.
>>
>>160254599
You can't really do that in this franchise; because there's a thousand different ways that "This guy can beat that guy, and would lose to that guy, but would beat that guy, but would lose to other people". The entire damn system is set up so that compatibility is the biggest thing. A guy can beat Arthur because he's anti-dragon, the fanbase goes "So he's stronger than Arthur", no he has situational compatibility against her. That same guy loses to another guy who isn't a dragon, fans go "Woah, this new guy is double stronger than Arthur". New guy loses to Arthur it becomes "bullshit, this is bullshit, Arthur was weaker than that guy who beat the other guy".

Some guy has an NP or skill that counters a guy, then power levels be damned, he wins. A guy is weaker than someone but his NP makes up for the difference, maybe he wins. Medusa Lily beat Medusa Gorgon in Babylon because she had a weapon that could beat her, despite Gorgon being far stronger. A guy has a skill that makes it so a certain guy can't beat him, but that certain guy can beat a dozen people stronger than him, that is the system.

Point is that power levels was always a joke in this franchise, until it wasn't. In so many ways this series is anti-power levels. Someone can beat someone with a plan, or just because their powers cancel each other out in a certain way, killing the master, or just luck.
>>
>>160254599
>Kuzuki was an assassin trained from birth to learn nothing but the same technique. His snake fist was specifically stated to be able to even deceive expert fighters. But since it is a technique of deceit at heart, experts fighters can easily learn to deal with it after witnessing it.
>Even a hand to hand expert like Bazett would be deceived by it. And when he is buffed by Caster....

>Comptiq 2006-07 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A:
>Q: If Bazett and Kuzuki got in a hand-to-hand fight against each other, who would win?

>A: If it's the first fight, then Kuzuki will win. If it's the second fight, then Bazett would pretty much completely win.
>Kuzuki could even drive Saber into a corner as long as his trick was kept hidden, but Bazett is also an expert at hand-to-hand combat thought of and developed by human beings. There's the possibility that she might adapt to Kuzuki's "snake" quicker than the Servants, who are more emphasized by their talent. However, since she might underestimate Kuzuki-sensei as being a normal person, Bazett could be beaten pretty simply.
>>
>>160254599
see>>160254839
>>
>>160254698
It was mostly a joke since it only happens on fan fiction.
>>
>>160254857
Nasu himself has said most servants are glass cannons capable of oneshotting each other
>>
>>160253945
>literally the first written story
>EVER

>somehow NOT the oldest hero

really you inbred nigger?
>>
man, being EMIYA must be suffering
>>
>>160259295
>Meanwhile at Avalon
>>
>>160259378
do every Emiya Archer reach Avalon? or is it only fate route Shirou that reaches it in the last episode?
>>
>>160247786
>according to a game whose writing is 100% nero wank, nero is better than everyone!
(you)
>>
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>>160253060
>>
>>160259488
Literally every route and bad end is a parallel universe so no.
>>
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>>160259488
Archer can never reach Saber again, it was Fate Shirou
>>
>>160252968
>Lancelotfags
>>
>>160246842
Well the novel, which nobody read, implied that Lancer, Caster, and Assassin were weaker servants, while Archer was the only one stronger than him. Saber was considered his equal, granted she didn't have Avalon. Rider's Berserker's natural enemy, so he'd beat him even if he's not necessarily stronger.
Caster's weaker considering the tentacle god was out of his control, and he would've disappeared sooner or later even without Excalibur vaporizing him.
>>
>>160261186
All servants stand a chance at beating other servants, it's stated 4th Lancer could've won the war, despite being inferior to Archer, Berseker, Rider, and Saber.
Consider it as fighting game matchups and tiers.
4th war's Archer has the edge over every other servant though, except 5th Archer (he won't use Ea even if he's serious since Nasu states that using it is a bigger defeat than dying to EMIYA).
>>
>>160261295
Do you have the full version of that? I found the untranslated one on BL, but I don't have the full translated version
>>
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>>160259488
Archer will be alone forever
>>
>>160252167
No that is Herc summoned as an archer and THEN got corrupted with grail mud. He's basically Archer/Avenger hybrid.

We have to see pure sane Archer Herc. That towel-wearing edgelord is just another excuse to use him as a jobber.
>>
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>>160259488
All alone in a hill of swords

or at best you pray that femHakuno will make him her personal servant forever.
>>
>>160250375
>Altria
its fucking Arturia, you troglodyte, get it right or go home.
>>
what really needs to be explained is that gil pretty much sword spams adn could kill everything that way. but emiya says that his sword spam would only work on gil? despite in his RM he doesnt even need the mana for it
>>
>>160246842
Gilgamesh should really be a weak servant yet for some reason he gets to be badass, probably due to Nasu's homolust.
He's not a good melee fighter compared to other heroes and the weapons he summons are literally just rocks he can't use properly, even his ace has a longass casting time that anyone with half a brain can exploit.
That's why Archer/Shirou can mop the floor with him since they're better fighters and can actually partially reproduce the true power of the weapons they create.
>>
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>>160252364
>Hector
Hi
>>
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>>160250842
Just be a little more patient ;^)
>>
>>160246973
Its sad how Nasu job alexander, is legend is more important to humanity than the Arthur Legends.
Iskandar should be OP as fuck but type moon make him a weak joke.
>>
>>160248605
Anti-Army doesn't specify the size of an army
Thread posts: 237
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