Black Butler/Kuroshitsuji

Every other chapter is just reaffirming things we already know. And that's pretty painful for a monthly release

>>160226297
Sora
lmao

If we don't get suggestive twin spreads, what's the fucking point? I know Yana wants to draw it.

>>160226322
>20 pages in monthly manga
I can forgive Yana for her gorgeous art, but still, last chapter was appropriately long, this one is too short. Some shonen artists pump out more pages per week.

>>160226297
These month long waits with not much new info is really making this anticlimactic.

I can't see how our Ciel will come out of this and be the same brat since he's already a wreck and he's apparently always been the weaker twin.

Also, Yen Press' translation actually seems to be more solid than mangastream's overall, this month.

>>160227022
I heard a rumor that Yana said Ciel won't survive until his 14th birthday. Not sure if it's true. And maybe she didn't even mean our Ciel, but the real one, eh?

Wait, if twins were born, then who is named what because I highly doubt parents would name their twins the same name.

>>160227677
Of course fake Ciel isn't really named Ciel. His actual name hasn't yet been revealed.

>>160227204
Yeah, she's a smart slut, she could have meant it like that.

Is it true that parts of the english fandom sent her menacing letters when the theory was confirmed?

>>160227716
Why wouldn't western fujo high schoolers do that?

>>160227747
I remember reading about it in the bb forums, then I think the forums sent her an apology on behalf of the western fanbase as well. Not sure though.

So is the real Ciel suppose to be more dominant and lord-like? Is that why the other Ciel tried killing his brother? Also where has his brother been all this time? Why did he pick this particular moment to make his return? Was the fake Ciel afraid of his twin brother? Also how do they know who is air to the house if they're both identical and born at the same time? I guess it depends on who came out of the womb first, which is kind of stupid because that means that the other Ciel is only like a few minutes older than the other Ciel.

Also it seems that Sebastian knew this whole time that the Ciel he's been serving was a fake, but I seriously doubt Sebastian will switch Ciel's to serve. He made a contract with the other Ciel and I think it can only be broken through death. And what did Sebastian do for the other Ciel? Cause the other Ciel was thanking Sebastian for what he did for him.

>>160229048
I think real Ciel really died and was just revived by some Undertaker fuckery. This is why he was lying in that room and needed a lot of blood for transfusion. Also explains Undertaker previous behavior, he wasn't creating bizarre dolls for fun, he was experimenting so he can revive real Ciel fully.
And I doubt Sebastian cares about Ciel's family drama, he is linked with him through the seal, not through his name or identity or whatever.

So far, the manga seems to confirm about every aspect of the Double Ciel fan theory.

>>160229216
Wonder what will happen to the fake Ciel now? Will he be exiled from the household? Or commit suicide? Maybe the real Ciel has a higher purpose so he needed to be brought back? Fake Ciel was never meant to be the head of the household so it messed with fate or something.

>>160230342
why do you ask plot questions? only the author knows for sure.

>>160230801
speculating with anons is fun

>>160230342
OG Ciel takes Seb for extra drama and assumes control of everything, Ciel loses all reason to live and becomes depressed. Turns OG was trying to sacrifice himself to save Ciel.

>>160230927
>OG Ciel takes Seb for extra drama
That would be retarded. Our Ciel literally has a seal proving his contract with demon. Unless some asspull happens (like demon being linked to "the real name" or something like that and seal not mattering at all), I can't see it happening.

>>160229048
>So is the real Ciel suppose to be more dominant and lord-like?
Fake Ciel took after Rachel and was sickly, softhearted, and meek. Real Ciel took after Vincent and was bolder and more sociable.
>Is that why the other Ciel tried killing his brother?
This remains to be seen. Going after Agni/Soma isn't the same as going after Ciel - we'll get an explanation eventually.
>Also where has his brother been all this time?
Dead.
>Why did he pick this particular moment to make his return?
Because he's not dead anymore. The Undertaker and the star cult is behind this.
>Was the fake Ciel afraid of his twin brother?
Yes. His entire life since the fire is a lie and just got exposed.
>Also how do they know who is air to the house if they're both identical and born at the same time?
Real Ciel wasn't sickly and that emotionally/mentally more fit. That was likely the deciding factor.
>Also it seems that Sebastian knew this whole time...
He knew because the other Ciel's death is what summoned him and his body was on the altar. He can't switch sides, he's contracted to the fake. As for what he did and the "thanks" (which was very sarcastic) - the real Ciel thinks he's the one who cut the ring out of his stomach (it's very possible the fake Ciel did it himself) and it's also possible he ate the real Ciel's soul (unconfirmed as of yet). I have a feeling the real Ciel is going to try to get rid of Sebastian to "save" his brother from the contract.

>>160230342
None of those things are going to happen. Fake Ciel will be mind-broken for a bit though. Real Ciel was brought back because Undertaker is obsessed with the Phantomhive's.

>>160231070
Sebastian also laughed at Ciel and called him a liar when he asked for his name after being summoned/contracted.

>>160226498
G fantasy seems to be cutting down the pages for most of their series for some reason.

>>160230801
Do you not enjoy just making theories? Speculating? You must be a really dull person in life.

If you look at the last few panels, fake Ciel is starting to have a severe asthma attack from the stress and fear.

The one thing I don't really like is that real Ciel initially shown as a pretty much irredeemable asshole, with him showing disdain for plebs and trying to kill Souma. Wouldn't it be a bit more interesting if he first appeared as a good guy?

>>160226297

I'd serve this lord.

>>160234727
Fake Ciel is already a bottom of the barrel irredeemable asshole, so despite real Ciel's antics, I'm still rooting for him.
Besides, he seems to actually carry himself as though he is a good guy or believes he is a good guy or at least believes he is justified, even when his actions contrast that, and I actually find that even more interesting. He is going to come across as everything that fake Ciel has tried to be throughout the manga, but it's going to be genuine, and that is going to compound the evidence of fake Ciel's absolute failure in being Ciel in the first place. It's pretty cool.

I hope realCiel isn't just a pawn of the Undertaker.

>>160226297

Delicious thighs.

>>160236164
>Fake Ciel is already a bottom of the barrel irredeemable asshole
How so? I think he's pretty sympathetic.

>>160226297
L'arc

>>160236857
He had horrific shit happen to him, to be sure, but he also let helpless, agonized children die by fire because he decided he knew best for them. Doll's death was brutal as well, and although he didn't deliver her killing blow by his own hand, he let her die in the torment of knowing that her family was ousted by someone whom she believed to be her friend. His callous unflinchingness in the face of it is what really signs off on its cruelty. There's other stuff too. He's just super mean, and I get why he's mean, but he isn't any less shit and awful for it.
Plus, on top of all his atrocities, he's straight up admitted that he does this shit for pride and power, rather than the misguided sense of justice under which he feigns to operate.

>>160237475
Another good one I could mention is mindraping Arthur Conan Doyle because he hopes he can get a good read out of it.
He just sucks.

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>>160237475
Honestly (fake)Ciel is playing the game of power and if he wasn't a mean bag of shit, he wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as he is today being the earl of Phantomhive, so good for him on that regard.

I wonder if Souma will actually do something useful now that Agni's dead.

>>160237799
There's being ruthless for the sake of your goals, and then there's just doing mean shit because you get off on it.
Plus you can be a ruthless motherfucker and be charismatic as well, which is what Vincent achieved, and real Ciel seemed to have been following in his footsteps. The characters who are so attached to fake Ciel in-series are generally either misguided, or seem to ignore that he treats them like crap.

>>160238074
I don't think fakeCiel ever really got off on the evil shit he did.

>>160238146
The ACD thing was super mean-spirited and entirely for self-gratification.
He felt morally superior during the "burning children" thing, so while it was a self-loathing form of getting off, it ties into his pride. And, again, he's admitted to acting entirely out of pride, even when he pretends like he's pursuing justice for his family. The evil shit he does is for the sake of feeling better about himself.

>>160238067
I damn hope so. Being a prince of Bengal, he is potentially a very major player, but he's been nothing but comedic relief so far.

>>160237475
>let helpless, agonized children die by fire because he decided he knew best for them
I took that more as him flipping the fuck out and not being in a good state of mind. He knew he fucked up when the Queen started going after him for it.
>Plus, on top of all his atrocities, he's straight up admitted that he does this shit for pride and power, rather than the misguided sense of justice under which he feigns to operate.
I'm fairly certain this is a facade. We've seen the real "Ciel" - he's a scared child that wants to hide under the covers and inches away from total mental collapse. You're taking his words at face value and getting his motivations backwards. He's constantly tries to reinforce his lie of his role as the "proud Ciel Phantomhive"
>Another good one I could mention is mindraping Arthur Conan Doyle because he hopes he can get a good read out of it.
Honestly, that was mostly Sebastian. But what was Ciel supposed to do, go "hey buddy, pls don't tell ppl bout my demon butler mmmk?"

I don't get where you get the idea he gets off on being evil/cruel. We see that he's actually quite charitable as a whole and decent to those he's close to. He just sucks with people and has major trust issues to the point of dysfunction, along with a plethora of other depressing mental issues. But yes, he's ruthless to a high degree - which given his past and his role as the watchdog is a necessity. His father was probably worse. His brother definitely is. And frankly, while he doesn't have the natural charisma of Vincent/real Ciel, he has his own form that's been noted by multiple characters.

>>160237475
>Doll
Wait so you're mad that he told her the truth? What did you want Ciel to do there? Lie? Give her and the circus that was complicit in carving up children as pass?

There's a difference between being brutally honest and mean spirited.

>>160238333
I don't think he felt morally superior when burning the orphans, he was basically having a PTSD episode and was not in the right state of mind at all, not that that justifies burning children, but it was not an action made of actual pure spite. Besides, he's never said he was right on doing that, he knew later than he fucked up big time.

>>160239558
>We've seen the real "Ciel" - he's a scared child that wants to hide under the covers and inches away from total mental collapse. You're taking his words at face value and getting his motivations backwards. He's constantly tries to reinforce his lie of his role as the "proud Ciel Phantomhive"
Acting for the sake of pride and power doesn't negate this, but reinforces it. He was stripped of his power and dignity and now he wants to feel like he has those things back at any cost.
When I say he "gets off on it", I mean that he does it for personal gratification--he does it to feel better about himself. I don't think that can be denied. I completely understand why he has a power trip, given his trauma, but you can't say it isn't a power trip, and you can't say it isn't held at the expense of others.

>>160239776
There's also a difference between being brutally honest and lording a harsh truth over someone.

>>160240122
I know he was having a PTSD meltdown. But he felt certain that he knew what was best for the children--he felt justified in taking away their choice to try to survive despite whatever agony. I wouldn't try to say the act was spiteful, or at least not entirely, so I don't exactly disagree with you--and I get what sorts of things trauma can make a person feel and do. But the fact remains he felt that his actions were just, even though some of those children might have chosen differently.
People keep saying he knew he fucked up, too--I didn't and wouldn't try to say otherwise. Also, having PTSD doesn't make you a bad person, but it doesn't preclude you from it, either.

>>160240232
Literally everyone knows Ciel is not a good person and that he is really fucked up, what are you trying to argue here? Do you want him to be nice and go frolic in the woods with elizabeth?

>>160240444
Not at all. I was initially asked why I think fake Ciel is an irredeemable asshole. Gave examples, got anons up my ass about how he's not.

>>160240232
>He was stripped of his power and dignity and now he wants to feel like he has those things back at any cost.
Yes, because he believes he needs them to carry out his revenge and duties as the watchdog. It's probably the same reason he tried to take on the persona of his brother. But we never really see him go crazy with pride or arrogance.

>When I say he "gets off on it", I mean that he does it for personal gratification--he does it to feel better about himself. I don't think that can be denied. I completely understand why he has a power trip, given his trauma, but you can't say it isn't a power trip, and you can't say it isn't held at the expense of others.
It can very easily be denied. I really don't think there's any instance in which you can show him being evil/cruel purely for the sake of getting gratification out of it. He can be nasty and spiteful, for sure, but never really goes as far as you seem to be implying.

>There's also a difference between being brutally honest and lording a harsh truth over someone.
There's really not. And there wasn't much else for him to say to Doll there - she kind of deserved it. I suppose he could of said nothing at all and just had Sebastian kill her without a word.

You seem very set on this view of Ciel being some sort of nasty evildoer who gets off on hurting others for the sake of his own pride, but that simply doesn't fit very well. And having hopes that the brother will be any better is setting yourself up for disappointment based on what we've seen so far.

>>160240492
>Gave examples, got anons up my ass about how he's not.
You made a highly contentious claim that can easily be argued against, and used a scant few debatable pieces of "evidence" to try and push your view of the character. What did you think would happen? Doll, Wordsmith, and the children were not as black and white or as good as evidence as you seem to think. Ciel is not a kind person. Probably not a good one either. He toes the line of amorality constantly. But he's not evil or irredeemable.

>>160240735
So what makes real Ciel an irredeemable asshole while fake Ciel isn't? What standards are we going by here?

>>160240380
He felt justified at the time, while he was undergoing a mental breakdown. When people are in a state as messed up as that, their judgement and decision making is impaired. It's like a drunk person thinking pulling a stupid stunt would be awesome.

>>160240810
I never said that tho

I don't think either of them are

>>160227022
Well fakeCiel knows that the dead has to remain dead, so he is going to kill RealCiel

>>160240895
I was initially responding to someone who did say that, so there you have it. He's not a good or kind person, you're right, I think anyone can agree on that. Personally I find him to be--again--an irredeemable asshole. The entire conversation was based on the comment that real Ciel is one himself.
I think a lot of people are assuming I'm saying fake Ciel is a bad character, which I'm not.

>>160240916
I dunno. The twins loved each other to an absurd degree. I get more of a real!Ciel is a yandere with brother complex (both naturally and due to him being a whatever he is messing with his dead) type vibe. fake!Ciel is probably going to have a few chapters of doing jack shit and just freaking out. I think the real one is going to try to cuck Sebastian by saving Ciel's soul. If he's aligned with Undertaker, he probably wants to free him from the contract too.

>>160241130
Bravat did straight up offer to break the contract, which seems to have been forgotten in-series, but maybe Yana will bring it up again.

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>>160241130
I know but Fakeciel pulling out a revolver and hunts his brother across the mansion to kill him just sounds more fun.

>>160240995
No, people are just disagreeing with your personal opinion on him as a person.

He's not irredeemable. And I'd say he can just kind of be a dick at times rather than being a full time asshole. But that doesn't make him a "bad" person. He's just not really a "good" one either.

Nobody said real!Ciel is one either. Just that getting your hopes up that he'll be nicer than his brother or whatever would be a bad bet.

>>160241130
>tfw Sebastian and Lizzy get cucked by onii-chan

>>160240810
>So what makes real Ciel an irredeemable asshole while fake Ciel isn't
He died and left his qt little brother all alone in a cruel empty world

>>160241218
I just want to see doting real Ciel take care of fake Ciel during an asthma attack while telling Sebastian to fuck off.

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>>160241597
I like how you think, anon.

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>>160241597

>>160241597
shota twin incest ntr doujin soon

>>160241325
>Nobody said real!Ciel is one either.
>>160234727 is what started all of this. When I called fake Ciel what I did, it was in response to that. If it sounds exaggerated, it was in reply to an exaggeration.
Look, when I say he has a power trip at the expense of others, I say it because, realistically, a traumatized child with untreated PTSD actually would. A lot of his actions are in line with that. Don't know what else to say about it.

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>>160241597

So is the manga ending nearing close?

>>160241910
Huh, didn't even see that post up there. Fair enough.

Still, I think you're over-blowing/over-exaggerating how often Ciel goes on a power trip. Out of the examples you through out there, only burning the children could really be argued for, but it can also be argued against. He definitely does it, but never solely for that sake, or all that often. Generally only when he's mentally in a bad way, and needs to reassure himself of who he feels he needs to be.

>>160242176
I don't think so. We still haven't seen jack of the cult that ruined his family, or gotten a better look at the weird shit the queen's up to.

This twin brother stuff will likely last a while and serve as a tool to help Ciel grow and step closer to the end.

>>160242180
I never said he does it all the time or even to a wild degree, though. Just that he does it. Much of the time, you really only need to see one reprehensible action from someone in order to find them irredeemable. The things I have seen from Ciel have caused me to think of him as a bad person.
>Generally only when he's mentally in a bad way,
Yes.
>and needs to reassure himself of who he feels he needs to be.
There. Personal gratification. His own sake. I'll keep saying I totally understand why he's like this, but that doesn't change it.

>>160242436
Then literally every character ever and most people, including yourself, are bad in your view and can never be redeemed. This is an incredibly naive and flawed take on things.

That aside, having Sebastian burn down the manor with the children inside was probably the one moment where every reader WTF'd. This is because it was so unexpected and seemingly out of place. We've yet to see anything truly similar to it from Ciel since. Just him freaking out if people touch him, being a snarker, teasing people, etc... But this was new and remained singular. It's a definite mark against him as a person, but not an all encompassing one.

I'm not sure I agree with >>160242180 or you. Looking back on the scene, Ciel's state of mind at the time was barely coherent. He could barely tell if he was in Baron Kelvin's basement or back with the Cult. I don't think he had the children killed out of spite or whatnot... I think at the time he simply just didn't care, and wanted the place that was causing him to suffer to burn. HE wasn't looking for a power trip, or to put the children out of their misery. He just freaked out violently and wanted out.

His explanation later on the train didn't feel malicious. Just kind of... cold. And I'm not even sure if he was being fully honest there, just another example of him trying to keep up a facade. And to be fair, he wasn't even really wrong. I feel like he doesn't want to be alive, much like how those children were likely ruined. That after he got his revenge, he'd be happy to die. Though with his brother back in the picture now... who knows.

But could he have saved those kids? Technically yes, and he knows he messed up. But at the time, he just wanted to save himself. "Ciel" strikes me as a character with a murky grey morality. He's not a bad person who actively tries to do bad things to people. Quite the opposite. But he's damaged goods, and sometimes that shows in a violent way.

>>160242240
Damn, it's really a shame this is a monthly series, it doesn't help the pacing at all.

>>160243791
What's worse is how short the chapters are lately. The art is really great, but it's still pretty shit for a monthly to be so short.