is he maddest man of all time

why didn't he just use the grail to bring back his dead wife?

He killed billions

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>>159588115
Then the grail would say "so you don't mind if I kill everyone else, right?" And Kerry would say never mind.

>>159588296
no just change his wish overall

>>159588115
I want idiotic secondaries to leave or at least stop asking stupid fucking questions.

>>159588373
why couldn't he just change his fucking wish to bringing back his dead wife instead of eliminating all bloodshed? better use of the grail instead of destroying it.

>>159588452
THE GRAIL IS TAINTED DUMBASS
ALL WISHES WILL RESULT IN "EVERYONE DIES ALWAYS FOREVER"
THAT WAS THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF THE FINALE OF FATE/ZERO IF YOU'RE TOO DUMB TO WATCH FATE/STAY NIGHT
KILL YOURSELF

>son finished his ideals for him
>died alone
>got somehow dad cucked in the only example of a uncucked way of raising another man's child
>left behind no legacy after being overshadowed by his madder adopted son

No.

>>159589574
are you ok

Of course!
Who would SACRIFICE his beloved ones to save a fcking bunch of unknown ppl?
Just a crazy retard that wants to become a fcking hero just to satisfy his fcking hidden ego.

>>159590423
okay

>>159589574
Huh? When was that explained?

>>159590589
Did you even watch the fucking series? Did you see how he was raised? His backstory nullifies literally everything you just said.

>>159592770
In Fate/stay night, it is made very clear the nature of the Grail in all three routes. In Fate/hollow ataraxia, it's explained why it's the way it is. In Fate/Zero, the Grail gives Kiritsugu a hallucination that makes him realize that it's pretty much the most destructive and spiteful monkey's paw ever conceived.

>>159587834

No, he's not. He's icily sane.

We need people like this dude to do the dirty work, because he makes life objectively better for everyone around him.

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>>159593182
>he makes life objectively better for everyone around him

SIX
BILLION
PEOPLE

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>>159593182
How to completely misunderstand a character for 800

Can you Fate fags clear something up with this guy for me? Did he fuck the artificial life girl or not? The source is all over the place about how he and the daughter was created.

>>159596103
POnOs->VagOO =Illya

>>159593182
>he makes life objectively better for everyone around him.
Of all the things you could have said you chose this.

>>159596103
Yes

>>159596103
Wondered about this too. Pretty sure it's mentioned in the vn Homunculi are "crafted" thanks to Alchemy and sperm (Illya herself said this IIRC) and not via sex.
Doesn't that make her different from the rest?

>>159596329
Wasn't it stated somewhere that she doesn't have a vagina?

>>159597662
I thought that was the thing with her being the super special perfected product.

>>159588115
Angra Manjew only understands destruction, and will interpret all wishes in that manner; You could wish for some pancakes and he would cause a third world country to fall into chaos for them to be made

>>159593182
His biological daughter is pretty much doomed to a short life without a chance to grow up.
His adopted son's best case scenario is a househusband trapped in an artificial body.
He probably managed to screw over Taiga somehow.

>>159599584
Nah. The best end for his adopted son is to struggle his way into Avalon to be eternally happy with his waifu.

>>159599584
>He probably managed to screw over Taiga somehow.
He left her alone to take care of his chuuni faggot adopted son

>>159599584
Taiga is pretty much guaranteed to be an old maid unless Shirou decides to marry her.

The Grail is not some omnipotent wish granting machine. The Grail is a massive fuckup created by some massive fuckup families who were trying to take a shortcut to getting to the Root, which is the aim of every Mage in the Nasuverse and which is expected to take millennia if it even happens at all.

The fuckup families were like HURR LETS SEE IF WE CAN SHORTCUT A PROCESS THAT TAKES GENERATIONS. They thought they were smarter than everyone else. The first few Grail wars were a disaster and this was before the Grail got tainted.

And no, even before it was tainted, it wouldn't have worked because you can't just take the fast and easy way to success.

So in summary the Holy Grail War is a fuckup of epic proportions from some fuckup families who fucked up so hard that one of them lost the Third Magic (Einzbern), one of them LOST MAGIC ENTIRELY (Matou) and the last ones descendants did fuck all but drink wine and be elegant (Tohsaka). The Holy Grail wars were all failures from people just dying instantly in one, to the Servants going berserk and killing everyone in another, to tainting it with Angry Manjew in yet another, all until the last one which was fought by a bunch of fucking high school students.

>>159599584
Taiga can't move on from her crush on Kiritsugu.

>>159587834
I never understood this. What did he do that was so wrong? He just wanted to save the world.

>>159599739
>HGW is just a stupid ritual to reach the root exactly like Kiritsugu's dad's time magic research
Zero is full of irony.

>>159599739
>implying the Fuyuki Grail would not have worked as intended had it not been for Avenger

In all of the stories where the Fuyuki Grail is not corrupted, it works exactly as intended and is actually capable of reaching the root/granting wishes. Most of the other Holy Grail rituals that Kirei talks about in FSN are bogus, but the one in Fuyuki is the real deal despite being obscure thanks to Justeaze's sacrifice + Zelretch's oversight.

>>159599939
How did Kiritsugu's dad create a zombie horde when trying to research time magic?

>>159599739
But Shirou has the third magic used on him

>>159596936

See, you're not thinking about the bigger picture. I don't mean his immediate family, who are collateral damage.

I mean us. The Dudes. Random people on the street. When he shot down that plane, he saved thousands of lives. When he got to the Grail, he quite possibly saved the World. As in, no-shit, the entire world. A man less dedicated to his ideal would've gone "Yes, I want to live with my waifu and daughterfu forever" then we would have all died horrible burning deaths through black slime.

That's totally worth something. No-one WANTS to be Kiritsugu, but everyone wants someone like him out there, making the hard choices. And keeping up from being raped to sleep by vampires or black goo.

>>159593284

Man, if you think about it, Archer's basically in hell, isn't he? His 'day' - No such thing, because time in the Throne of Heroes is at the whim of the Counterforce - goes something like this.

Fall of Rome. Priest casts a forbidden spell, transforms into a Dead Apostle out of desperation. Massive fight against a barely-human figure, spewing frantic prophecies and summoning apocalyptic swarms of crows. Wins by shooting him with Hrunting, diving into his main body, ripping out his heart. Blink.

Syria, 2020. ISIS performs mass suicide to call down Armageddon. Demons everywhere. Blink.

Pompei. Fire elemental unleashed from the volcano. Thousands driven mad by the spite of an awakening god. Mobs pack the streets, the only way to get to the elemental is by killing every last one of them, then diving into a volcano. Blink.

The Somme. Massive uprising of Dead. Blink.

The fucking Fall of Rome *again*.

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>>159603461
It's the kind of shit that could even break Shirou down.

There's still one thing I don't get though.

The Throne of Heroes exists outside of time. The Archer is F/SN used to be Emiya Shirou, but not necessarily the protagonist. There are a whole bunch of different timelines that exist concurrently. The Archer in F/SN is from one of those timelines.

The thing is, if there are a bajillion different versions of Shirou in different universes, and Archer and beings like him can be summoned into timelines that they didn't necessarily originate from, then doesn't that mean that every time a Shirou in one of those universes makes a deal with the counterforce to become a guardian, that a "new" Archer is created that can be summoned across the whole spectrum of universes? Are there actually an infinite amount of Archers that could possibly be summoned in any given HGW? Or does each new one somehow get sublimated into the existing copy in the Throne? Is it possible that the chances of someone being stupid enough to actually accept such a shit deal are so infinitely small that even Emiya Shirou only did it once out of an infinite number of scenarios?

>>159603461
In the UBW route in the VN, Archer also implies that one of his summonings was to the Norse Ragnarok.

>>159604276
>Or does each new one somehow get sublimated into the existing copy in the Throne?

It would be this, although keep in mind that the chances of Shirou being able to even become a Counter Guardian in the first place are astronomically low.

>>159604276

Yes, but there are an infinite number of universes. This is why being in the Throne of Heroes sucks so much. In the example I gave above, you'd assume that you would eventually run out of battlefields. Except that doesn't happen, because Archer is sent across universes. He might literally have battled his way across ISIS-held Syria dozens of times. Each time, it's new, horrible and yet familiar at once.

Like, he gets to see the absolute worst of what people do to each other, and he gets to see it multiple times. For instance, being at the Somme once is pretty bad. But there are alternate universes where the Somme was fought in 1942, with zombie Nazis and necrotech. That's really bad, but it's nothing compared to the Third Battle of the Wasteland, in the ruins of the great city of Wash-on-ton.

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why is fate so shit? i can't take any of it seriously

>>159604467
Because there's no throne of heroes for dogs.

>>159604417

That's amazing.

>>159604417
Sounds pretty fun to be honest, it's just shit when you're ideal is "saving everyone"

>>159597662
>Doesn't that make her different from the rest?

Yes. Kiritsugu specifically angsts that his daughter is a perma-womanlet due to Iri not really being a "normal" human. IIRC in the novels they mention the Einzberns had to do special treatments so she could even live at all.

In short, Illya is not a normal Homunculus but not a normal human either.

>>159603461

> 3599: Some prick tries to drop a meteor on Earth. Gundams everywhere.

>>159599505
Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

>>159604665
For you, maybe. Personally I like having down time to eat, read, take a shit, etc. Even war junkies like to talk a walk in the park now and then. It's literally like clocking into work except your job is to clean up horrific messes every day and you never get to clock out or take a lunch.

>>159604665

It's a workday that never ends. That's true horror, right there.

>>159587834
His mommy didn't hug him enough when he was young. :^)

>>159587834
His patience with humanity reached absolute zero at the same time his mental state did, and he saw the Grail as his only way out of the impossible problem of a hero that no human could solve. Ironically, even though he couldn't solve the problem of a hero, the Grail catastrophe did end up saving him as a person.
So yeah, he was pretty blindly mad. But at his core, buried under all the layers of edgelord, was a good person. If you want a version of him who's straight up terrible from the inside out, look no further than this guy.

>>159606334
>L
I thought that was my Light image
Goddamn it

>>159604276
Im guessing they fuse together as long as they are not too different from each other. For example if there was a universe where Shirou was female, there would be 2 EMIYAs.
But if the only difference was that he wore some slightly different clothes they would just fuse together, with the original gaining the power of also wearing those clothes.
I dont know, im just making up bullshit

>>159587834
I admire Kiri. He did the right thing, his only failure was not double tapping after shooting his family.

He's a hero by putting the needs of everyone else, even to people he never knew or will never know over his own desires and needs. Mind of Steel is the one truth fate.

>>159588115
monkey's paw effect

>>159604276
>Get summoned into a Holy Grail War by Counter Force
>Proceed to use the Grail to make yourself immortal being who can travel universes without being bound by the Counter Force anymore.
>Counter Force is fucked out of its contract.

>>159607531
Fuck that's a pretty good deal
>only ruin one of many 'verses
>can save the rest at your leisure

>>159607593
Kerry would have taken it without a second thought. Ironically it might not jive so well with Shirou though.

Yes.

>>159604276
>Fate Apochrypha but all 14 servants are EMIYA.

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>>159610575
UNLIMITED SHIROUS WORKS

>>159599584
UBW is shirou's best option

>>159601457
Trial and error?

>>159596103
Anime characters find sex repulsive. Even middle aged anime men act like teens around girls just like weaboos.

>>159601457
>secondaries

He had the time manipulation down, but it puts an enormous stress on the body (Kiritsugu could only use it against Kotomine because Avalon gave him regen). So he researched ways to get an immortal body, the easiest way to do so is becoming a Dead Apostle (Type-Moon's vampire expys). Shirley wants to prove that his potions work and drinks it, turns into an out of control Dead Apostle and then the whole town gets zombified.

>>159592770
t.secondaryfags

>>159599505
Those better be some damn good pancakes

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he should of adopted Sakura-chan as well and sure Shirou could still get with her.

>>159614527
I wish, but Zouken never would have let it happen

>>159610984
False faggot. It's fate, going into Avalon after years of bullshit.

>>159588291
>muh 6 gorillions

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>>159614784
She didn't deserve those worms.

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>>159614527
Shirou is not a sis con and will try to set her up with Shinji then.

>>159614948
He would if he had Sakura as a sister and nobody would ship Shinji with anyone after seeing how much of an ass he is.

>>159615160
Until the events of the grail war, Shirou saw Shinji as a friend

>>159615188
Even then Shinji would probably still be lusting over Rin, so Sakura can still get with Shirou.

>>159615160
Shinji probably wouldn't even be that bad without Sakura.
Having her sister be the inheritor of the family magic was what made him the piece of shit he is.

>>159615485
The point still remains he'd be all over wanting Rin though.

>>159615485
His extreme inferiority comlpex would still be there, because he's worthless as a magus.

>>159615567
Yes but having his hate directed to himself instead of his sister would change his personality quite a bit.
Can't think of another scapegoat that would take Sakura's place off the top of my head.

>>159615550
Definitely. Even more than he is now.

>>159615790
So wouldn't that leave Sakura open for Shirou? Taiga would probably ship it also.

>>159615790
Rin
>blessed with power
>amazing household
>always little miss perfect as a kid
He'd just be way more sexually frustrated.

>>159615817
Who knows, she would be a completely different person without worms.
The reason she falls for Shirou is his autism for never giving up when the odds are impossible and literally saving her from being a mindless doll.

>>159615945
Wonder if his personality would change having her as a sister.

>>159615943
So the same? Isn't he already overly sexual frustrated and tried to rape her in UBW?

>>159616093
He had Sakura for years tyo vent out sexual frustrations, and by then he had Rider and raped Ayako.
Imagine Shinji without any kind of sex.

>>159616129
I've only seen anime but he sexually attacked Sakura also?

>>159616014
I'd imagine something like Sakura wanting Shirou to love her as a person whereas Shirou would only see her as a person he must protect, like everyone else.
The standard 'when everyone's special, no one is', whcih is always nice and is also one of the cores from HF.

I wish I could be Kerry's waifu

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>>159616129
He'd be like a wild beast then if he had nobody to release the urges but he would still probably get Ayako though wouldn't he?

>>159603102
nobody has wanted to admit you were right but you are.

>>159616208
Hate those cliches anon or he'd see her as sister and say it's forbidden like usual.

>>159616258
Anyway, Sakura's nii-san is almost as boner iinducing as Akiha's.

>>159603102
>raped to sleep by vampires
Are they cute vampires?

Need more characters like Kiritsugu and have as much development and depth to them not many good tragic mc like him.

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I want to make Sakura realize she's a beautiful woman and deserves the best!

>>159603102
But what about the inherent potential failure in Kiritsugu's ideals? There is always that risk that sacrificing these hundreds of people won't save those thousands of people. In that case, it was for nothing, and he did more harm than good. Isn't that what kinda happened at the end of the fourth grail war?

>>159616014
Only thing that would change is the fact that he isn't the only one Kerry saved, but I don't think it's enough to stop him from feeling guilty for the fire and from borrowing his ideals.
He'd still be just as much of an autist.

>>159616219
Honestly he's like that because of Zouken letting him rape his sister whenever he wants.
No Sakura, no sex as relief, no need for sex to vent out his anger in the first place.

>>159616186
>attacked
Raped over and over through the years.

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>>159616447
This man deserves more death than he's ever had, I don't think I've seen such a shit character as him now.

>>159616496
Well, he
>dies in Fate
>mindrapped by the grail into not being a shit person in UBW
>killed by Sakura in HF mid-rape
I almost felt pity for him before HF.

>>159616512
Having a quick death isn't punishment, they need to inflict something long term or continuously hurt him. Seeing him die in UBW was pretty good though.

>>159616561
>they need to inflict something long term or continuously hurt him.
Sakura only does this to Rin, in a bad end.

>>159616577
It's number 1 rule. Never mess with another and her love desu, silly baka Rin.

>>159616592
More like
>don't go tell your sister corrupted by all the evils of the world an extremely traumatic past was nothing

>Boku wa...
Is he a manchild?

>>159616662
He's a man who sacrificed his waifu and daughteru

>>159616717
He also never bothered to tell his son
>never trust this Kotomine priest guy

>>159616729
Now that I think about it that should of been one of the first things to teach him, so he doesn't get baited if they meet.

>>159616412

But he saved the world at the end of the Fourth Grail War. Like, sure, sacrificing hundreds may not save thousands. But at least he tried.

It can't be stressed enough that the entire world, or at least most of Japan, would have been annihilated if Kiritsugu didn't make the specific choice he did. He's basically a man who goes "Okay, it's better if we set off the atomic bomb here and die of radiation poisoning, rather than let them drop it on Russia and start World War III."

If I was the guy next to him, I wouldn't be very happy. Dying of radiation poisoning isn't fun. But if I was one of the billions other people in the world, I'd prefer not to live in an atomic wasteland.

>>159599739
The Einzbern already had access to the root (which manifested as Heaven's Feel/Third Sorcery), but they lost it. Heaven's Feel the ritual is created to regain access to it, with the Einzbern homonculus at the core (due to their family sorcery trait of "obtaining the result bypassing the process by using enough mana").

The grail pre-corruption is semi-legit, its just that if you're not an Einzbern all it does is provide a giant infinite source of mana, you still need to provide the process to reach what you want. Combined with the Einzbern sorcery trait however, it for all intents and purposes is an omni-potent wishing device.

Even as a family's magic crest gets bigger, magic by and large gets worse at a faster rate, correct?

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>>159610984
Nope.

>>159587834
He's quite sane.

>>159607934
I want to see this so bad.