The concept of an Ally/Hero of Justice pops up all the time in

File: Dragon-Ball-Z-Fukkatsu-no-F-se-muestra-en-nuevas-imágenes-11[1].png (106KB, 900x502px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 900x502px

>>159265364
For me it's Goku.

Can any other character fit the role better? I think not.

>>159265691

Does Goku even fight for Justice?

Or are you saying a good fight is justice?

File: Inferno_Cop.jpg (193KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

193KB, 1920x1080px

True Ally of justice.

>>159266547
He is justice itself.

File: Really nigga.jpg (18KB, 418x275px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 418x275px

>>159265364

This guy. Because he stops the baddies, has fun while doing it and doesnt suffer moral dilemmas.

>>159266547
INFERNO COPPU

https://youtu.be/rzJ0dcj3W-8

>>159267305

I wish the Devil May Cry Anime got more love. It's actually not bad.

Not amazing, but not bad.

File: Demiya.jpg (35KB, 450x636px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 450x636px

>>159265364
>Who is your ideal Ally of Justice
A hero is the one who chooses to the greater good over everything and lets no one get in their way. Even if it kills their own happiness and breaks them down.

The hero is the one who sacrifice others to achieve the best outcome possible.

File: 1460156429738.jpg (46KB, 720x480px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 720x480px

>>159265364
I love heroes and people that want to save everyone expecting nothing in return, but "justice" is a really terrible thing to represent.
The fact justice isn't a static ideal makes it a mess of selfishness, greed and ego stroking.
Life isn't black and white and while someone might do bad for the sake of doing bad it's barely ever the case and even if it is can you really use "justice" as an excuse to murder the shit out of them in glorious combat? Chances are that they had loved ones, dependents, that sort of thing, and removing this person from their lives would affect it in such a way as to be harmful, where is it then the justice for these people who did no wrong yet suffer because of you? Are they guilty by association? Would you curse someone to the life of an orphan in the name of "Justice" simply for existing?
There's also the fact removing these people would cause others to try to take their place, causing more needless suffering of the innocent because you didn't actually pull the weed from the root.
Some would call for the death of hundreds to be Justice while others would call for the death of those that carried out such justice to be justice itself.
Justice is what the powerful use to exempt themselves from scrutiny and Justice is also what the weak levy against the powerful to weaken their grip.
What the hell even is justice if it means something different to so many people and how can anyone ally themselves to it?
If you want to save someone and be a hero, that's fine, but holy shit, the moment justice gets thrown in for a reason it just becomes a mess.
It's nothing more than a feel-good powertrip for people with messiah or hero complexes with none of the perceived consequences because of a feeling of moral superiority.

File: Justice has arrived.png (2MB, 1366x768px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1366x768px

>>159265364
Just a father and husband from a dystopian future who loves sentai

File: Jirou's greatest treasure.jpg (536KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

536KB, 1280x720px

The greatest ally of justice is a person who inspires another to at least try to make things better for everybody else.

File: Vol_14_-_282.png (1MB, 1120x1600px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1120x1600px

>>159265364
Definitely Kirito. He takes his experience as the "hero" of the death game and applies it to other arcs and future experiences in order to protect the world he loves. I really like the whole "Black Swordsman" epic that's tied to his character and how it is a recurring theme at the climax of some high-stakes battles Kirito gets involved in. I really do love his character as an LN / Web novel fan of the series.

File: 1494213198961.jpg (182KB, 1050x1492px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 1050x1492px

>>159265364
Imouto is Justice.

File: 1498047590031.png (234KB, 500x400px) Image search: [Google]

234KB, 500x400px

>>159269277

>>159269323

Does Flat contribute to justice or is it just a trait of Justice?

>>159265691
You mean american dub goku? Cause...toriyama outright states that him fighting for the good guys is more like a happy coincidence then anything else.

File: kichiku-1.jpg (48KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 400x400px

Rance, the only true hero to ever walk the lands, saves the day and gets the babes

File: q9876ln9.gif (2MB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 500x281px

>>159269339
Found the animefag who's missing out on a great series. I'd suggest giving the source material a shot, considering it continues to sell while 'good' anime doesn't.

File: Fire_sisters.jpg (61KB, 600x338px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 600x338px

Fire sisters are justice

File: 1484062267663.png (592KB, 1600x1145px) Image search: [Google]

592KB, 1600x1145px

>>159269359
Yes.

File: AllyofJusticeCatastor-CT10-EN-SR-LE.png (547KB, 383x564px) Image search: [Google]

547KB, 383x564px

>>159265364

>>159265364
A villain who protects other villains from heroes.
That's a true ally of justice. Standing up for those who no one else will stand up for.

File: [HorribleSubs] Shingeki no Bahamut - Virgin Soul - 13 [1080p].mkv_snapshot_11.20_[2017.06.30_12.39.47].jpg (839KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

839KB, 1920x1080px

>>159267632
>A hero is the one who chooses to the greater good over everything and lets no one get in their way. Even if it kills their own happiness and breaks them down.

>The hero is the one who sacrifice others to achieve the best outcome possible.

>>159269765
Yeah nobody will stand up for villains because the villains are too busy killing or eploiting them...

>>159265364
All Might
I hope that in the series the topic is further discussed. There are lot of fakes who are only for the fame and/or money

File: 1472375847164.jpg (45KB, 628x360px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 628x360px

>>159265364

For me its Kefka - intelligent, nihilistic, and a wicked sense of humour.

File: 1368061366733.jpg (34KB, 500x585px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 500x585px

>>159269558
>Found the animefag
I wasn't trying to hide
>I'd suggest giving the source material a shot
Perhaps I will one day. Admittedly, I never got through the entire anime, which is something I usually fling shit at people for doing before making an opinion on a series. I watched the first 10 episodes and got turned off to the whole thing because I found Kirito to be incredibly annoying and the premise of the world to be lackluster. I didn't think of it as a good rendition of the "Trapped in a game world and trying to escape" story
>considering it continues to sell while 'good' anime doesn't
Band wagon thinking. That's the same sort of logic that dictates One Piece and Naruto must be good simply because they are popular

>>159270026
I think it's touched upon when All Might talks about why he chose Deku, and why he gave Deku One-For-All over TinTin.

Deku and All Might want to save everyone, while Nighteye and TinTin are more of the mindset of saving as many as they can.

File: 35053025_p0.png (758KB, 900x1050px) Image search: [Google]

758KB, 900x1050px

>>159270146
>Kirito is annoying
How? Yeah he's strong, but I'd rather have a badass strong protag over someone like Subaru who relies on other characters to carry him through every fight / arc.
>Source material
Admittedly lightyears better than the anime. Mother's Rosario (season 2) was really the only source-material-accurate arc so far. Other arcs had a lot left out.
>Band wagon
True, just was trying to point out that there is a reason that it's being further adapted. The LN is very-well written, it's really up to A-1 to bring the quality over to the anime.

>>159270178
And still Nighteye and TinTin are more hero material than say, Uraraka (who is in for the money) Mineta (He wants to be cool) or the woman who has snakes in her hair (who is mostly for the fame)

File: IMG_1533.jpg (1MB, 1700x1280px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1700x1280px

>>159265364
Every hero need a wife. Everything can be healed with love.

File: 1498418352416.gif (448KB, 450x292px) Image search: [Google]

448KB, 450x292px

>>159270417
>How? Yeah he's strong, but I'd rather have a badass strong protag over someone like Subaru who relies on other characters to carry him through every fight / arc
How powerful he is presents the main problem. Combine that with the fact that he essentially has game knowledge that borderlines on the meta and the world has a tendency to just lie on its back and let him walk all over it makes any conflict he encounters seem trivial. To be clear, I'm not overtly opposed to an overwhelmingly powerful MC in a story like this. Hell, I'm a pretty huge fan of Overlord. But when you have a character like that, it shouldn't be about "fighting the enemy to escape the world!" like it is here, or at least that's how I saw it

>>159269674
>2017
>Catastor
This card was good like 6 years ago.

I don't believe in justice.

>>159270417
Ok, how good is LN compared to anime, at least characterisation and scenes wise?
Because I watched through both seasons and while I did find it fairly entertaining, it was more along the lines of "so bad it's good".

>>159270685
It's kind of weird in a universe where heroism is just a legit career for work.

File: 3DtgbBO.jpg (2MB, 3508x2480px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3508x2480px

>>159271024
That's a fair point, I can understand how the whole 'escape via winning' premise can seem lackluster when the MC of the show is strong as hell. That being said, I wouldn't think that Ainz is that different, aside from him wanting to conquer the world instead of 'clear' it. The reason I like Kirito so much isn't really because he cleared Aincrad and saved all the waifus, it's how that becomes part of his mentality later in the novels. Him clearing Aincrad is really just a premise for all that. Kirito's inner monologues and struggles really shine in the later volumes of the light novel, which is why I like him so much. Sadly, there isn't much of that inner thought shown in the anime adaptations.

Aside, where are you reading Overlord? I wanted to start on those novels too, as I just finished the latest SAO LN about a week ago.

>>159265364
>who is your ideal Ally of Justice?

A society in which individuals protect themselves and their interests while interfering with the integrity and interests of others as little as possible.

Having a single individual force his sense of justice on society as a whole disqualifies him from being an ally of justice since it ignores the importance of personal responsibility and self-reliance.

If you cannot accept that people can put themselves in bad situations and suffer from it, you'll eventually be unable to accept that individuals can put themselves in advantageous situations and benefit from them.

This leads to communism, the cancer that destroys humanity.

>>159271571
If the main difference here is what is presented in the anime and LN with regards to inner monologue, then I'll have to give the LN a try eventually
>Aside, where are you reading Overlord?
google skythewood overlord. Their site has volumes 1-9 and there is a link on that site to a blogspot that has volumes 10 and 11. Volume 12 drops in August.

File: th.jpg (18KB, 209x298px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 209x298px

>>159271362
If I were to give the LN a 10/10, I'd probably give the anime a 6 on the same scale. Characters are especially developed much further in the light novels than they are in the anime. Take Death Gun for example; in the books he is a dark, looming threat seeking revenge who could strike at any moment, whereas in the anime he's just some edgy-looking guy that's salty over getting his guild's ass kicked in Aincrad. It's really about the atmosphere that is set in the novels, and how A-1 doesn't really do the best job of porting 100% of the tone over to the anime.

On another note, volume 9 (where Season 3 would begin) can almost stand alone from the rest of the series, and it's easily the best arc yet. If interested, I'd really recommend you jump into it and see what you think.

>>159269277

This is bait, right?

>>159271877
See >>159271946 about the inner thoughts. The books really sell the mood and the mentalities of each character.

And I will, thanks. I really enjoyed the anime and seeing Ainz absolutely shit on other people who thought they were strong, when they really amounted to nothing.

File: 1397879109784.jpg (386KB, 1268x799px) Image search: [Google]

386KB, 1268x799px

>>159268525
Masayoshi was pretty cute desu.

File: Could be on a hotdog.png (311KB, 400x450px) Image search: [Google]

311KB, 400x450px

>>159272080
Read the threads. If you immediately dismissed the series or only watched the anime, you wouldn't be able to understand where I'm coming from.

>>159271946
Huh, thanks might give it a read then.

>>159272204

I read the first book after having watched the first season, and the book is even more shit than the anime.

File: h4kjl3g24.png (448KB, 473x437px) Image search: [Google]

448KB, 473x437px

>>159272285
Whatever you say lol. Keep the meme going and maybe it'll get cancelled.

>>159265364
Heroes fighting for justice are annoying. They're never all that impartial themselves, so it usually feels like justice is a convenient excuse to enforce their own values. The best heroes are defenders of the weak. They don't project their own bullshit morals of right and wrong, they just protect what's important to them. Who could find fault with that?

File: 1443322528272.jpg (253KB, 1281x1291px) Image search: [Google]

253KB, 1281x1291px

>>159265364
This girl protecting a wandering hobo with the power of COURAGE is my ideal form of justice

File: Philosophy 101.png (165KB, 777x656px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 777x656px

>>159272457
>The best heroes are defenders of the weak
>They don't project their own bullshit morals of right and wrong.
Anon that is a contradiction. By classfying people as "weak" you are projecting the idea that they cannot stand on their own and that they need someone to defend them instead of letting the "weak" person rise up or defend themselves.

"Defenders of the weak" when compared to "Heroes fighting for justice" are the lowest of scum. Rather than cheer the "weak" on or tell them how to improve themselves and stand on their own two feet or train them, they rather be the doormat to fight their battles for them. To let the "weak" put their burdens on the "Defender" and become dependent on the "Defender"

A Hero is something you strive to become with your own two hands.
A Defender is something you become dependent on with the hands of somebody else.

>>159265691
He gambles with entire planets just to get a good fight. Same with vegeta when he let cell get 18.

>>159272662
Justice is pretty cute.

>>159272725
If Kamen Rider is scum, then I'd rather be Scum than a human.

But I'm on /a/, so I got that covered

File: 1477986603721.gif (953KB, 320x239px) Image search: [Google]

953KB, 320x239px

>>159272937
I can hear the theme

There are three kinds of heroes that I like

Protectors.
1.The ones that take care of the people who can't take care of themselves and take the blows that they can't handle.

The righteous warriors
2.The people who go out of their way to fight the wrongs in the world and stand in it's way or ultimately take it down.

The heroic leaders
3.The people who teach others through example or word to take on heroic qualities.
To internalize the good and fight against and lessen the evils in themselves and the world one small act of bravery and self control at a time.

File: shirou render.png (132KB, 300x531px) Image search: [Google]

132KB, 300x531px

Honestly, i genuinely believe it to be Shirou. he understands that a "hero of justice" is a completely unrealistic concept, but is regardless an ideal you should strive to be every day. Helping an old lady across the street, helping a stranger push their broke down car, getting a cat out of a tree. Be as close to a "ally of justice" as you possibly can. Shirou is the everymans hero, which is the only one that matters.

>>159277120

What's funny about Shirou is that I can see him being a Hero of Justice even in the Heaven's Feel route. He's not condoning the evil that Sakura is doing or the blood she's shedding, he's trying to save her because he knows what brought her to this point were things largely out of her control. She's not free of culpability, Kirie points that out pretty clearly, no number of rapes and brainwashing totally absolves you of the decision to kill. But she's not truly evil either. That's why when Shirou decides between saving her and staying on his path his mind shatters if he picks the later. His world view can't process somebody who has any amount of innocence yet cannot be saved.

So when he decides to abandon the Path Of The Superhero to save Sakura, he is still being a hero of justice because he resolves to protect everyone from her while he's trying to save her. He simply accepts the possibility that he might not succeed at that and accepts that if any more die the blood is equally on his hands because he's decided that Sakura is the only person in the world who is not expendable in this scenario. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

That's also why the Shirou from Prima Illya 3rei is such a badass, because he's that Shirou taken to a further extreme. He won't accept a path to saving the world that includes the suffering and death of an innocent, no matter how dire the situation for humanity. If the human race will die without the shedding of innocent blood, better that it die.

That's fucking justice right there, lads.

>>159265364
I know this isnt /pol/ but was really hoping to open this thread and see the fuhrer as first picture

>>159272662
I barely remember that show. What happens to her again?

>>159265364
RIP AND TEAR UNTIL IT IS DONE

>>159279851
>If the human race will die without the shedding of innocent blood, better that it die.
Then you ain't really saving shit, "hero."

>>159271024
The prpoblem is actually the other way around. Every arc boss he encounters has bigger advantages than Kirito. He is hyped up, then jobs and still manages to bullshit his way around. The first time was fine because the difference wasn't that much but he never fights any arc boss by himself, he is always ganging up on them.
On SAO Kirito supposedly had the best reaction times because of the time he spent on the VR, which makes the synchronization better. Then the boss is the guy who has been living inside the game world even before the beta launched and with special equipment. The second arc he needed a whole army to buy him enough time to get thru fodder. The third one had super duper special rifle wth special sword while Kirito had to use starting equipment and had a retard sniper to help him out. The fourth time around he fought against an administrator and lost a brother fighting it.

>>159280391

He saving the "soul" of the human race. That's not nothing. Even UBW Shirou knew that using corrupt means to save the world would lead to tragedy. Its why Archer became the broken bitter shell he was and tried to kill himself, and why Shirou found to resolve to never give into despair in his impossible quest.

If you allow the human spirit and its ideals to get killed to save humanity, you haven't saved humanity. You've just brought it a different kind of doom.

>>159271571
> as I just finished the latest SAO LN about a week ago.

Spoonfeed me senpai. I stopped when he went potato

>>159267632
Meh, the only Shirou worse than Alter Shirou is the plant one.

>>159267552
I've got a soft spot for episodic series.

Dante's daily life was a nice thing to see.

>>159265364
Post your ideal ally of justice, then post your ideal enemy of justice for them to fight.

>>159279851
I like you. Are you into men? no homo

>>159267632

Tell that to Kiritsugu.

There are two boats...

>>159280534
But we literally got to where we are today by shedding innocent blood.
Loads of it, in fact. I'm not convinced that a little more would be the make or break for humanity's soul.

>>159280165
>Unrepentant sophist
>Righting wrongs through violence is apparently his true will
>One dead fairy away from potentially turning into the worst monster mankind has ever seen

Your ideal ally of justice is dubious as fuck senpai.

>>159280655

It depends on how flat-and-toned-yet-soft your midriff is. In the absence of womanly hips, boobs and ass, I can live with sexy womanly abs.

>>159280656
If Kerry was a firefighter, then Angry Manjew would flood the Earth to prevent all fires. There's a time and place for everything.
Also
>don't do anything
>both boats sink
That's not really a good outcome, either.

>>159280663

An Hero of Justice would argue that we got where we are today IN SPITE of shedding innocent blood, not because of it.

He would also argue that the extinction of survival of the human race has never been decided by that shedding of innocent blood or decision not to do so, and if that moment ever came it WOULD in fact be make of break for the collective human soul. Choosing to kill a total innocent if it saves the whole is the ultimate extreme of utilitarianism, and utilitarianism is antithetical to heroism and justice.

>>159280875
If we've killed innocent people for no real reason and we still maintain some level of decency, how exactly would doing it for a purpose just magically cause us to go full on evil?

Never mind the fact that neglecting to do the latter may lead to many cases of the former in acts of futile desperation.

>>159280765
I'm ottermode with a solid six pack :(

In anime or any other form of entertainment, hardly any.
The average hero is hardly ever placed in a position in which he has to make a tough choice, and if he's ever put in that position, a path is written so that he gets an ideal third choice that allows him not to have to make any difficult choice - self-sacrifice doesn't fall into what I'm referring to as "tough choice" since it doesn't pose any ethical dilemma.

Normally, anti-heroes would fall into my category of what an ideal hero is, since they don't have to be tied to the romanticised idea of what a hero is. However, the average anti-hero is written as some chap who has no qualms whatsoever about killing anyone in his path that isn't innocent, but is ready to save those in need and kill the bad guys if the situation arises. So, again, given the lack of a philosophical/ethical position, you hardly get any real ethical dilemmas to place the anti-hero in.

To give an example, in F/sn you have a character like Archer, who is aware to there's only so many people you can save, and ultimately you'll have to make tough calls on whom you'll be saving. However, his story is just merely mentioned, and not really one you get to follow. Furthermore, the story focuses more on Shirou and how he's a broken person, than on the idea of justice, the value of life or the concepts of right and wrong, which are either superficially described or simply not expanded upon in the slightest. The idea of being a hero of justice is mainly there as a manifestation on the fact that Shirou is clinging on to something, because he's trying hard to deny his own self-awareness, since he's a broken guy due to a traumatic event in his past.

There are 2 instances in which the MC has to make a tough call, 1 in Fate and 1 in HF. However, in the former there was nothing he could really do, and in the latter he had already decided to would drop the ideal of justice to make his lover his priority.

>>159281030

I feel like this conversation has reached a point of irreconcilable philosophcal difference in how a theoretical hero would view the universe. The question of whether the hero believes there are larger metaphysical consequences for his actions vs if the hero believes there is a void of larger meaning for his actions has a significant influence on how the scales would balance in this question.

There's really no point in continuing the debate if we can't agree over whether or not the methods you employ as a hero mean anything. If you think they don't and only the outcome matters, then you'll always think the type of hero I'm describing is wrong if the outcome is one your values determine is unacceptable, because only outcome matters by your way of thinking.

In other words YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF JUSTICE!

>>159281126

It ok, we can still be friends. Just not sexy friends.

>>159269647
>Heh, let us make a series bout lolis molesting each other!
>Let's also make the former main character the coolest version of him he's ever been and give him endlessly badass scenes!

>>159280391
Does it help that it is a plot-point that the character is insane and dead inside?

>>159281294
I don't entirely disagree, but sometimes you gotta make the tough decision, especially if literally our entire existence is hanging in the balance.

In other words, bitch I reject your justice and substitute my own!

>>159281138

No, Archer motivation wasnt that, Archer attempted to save everyone to the point he made a contract to be a counterguardian.

Now what counterguardians is, its a janitor ... they clean up the mess so his existence from that point was just cleaning the mess, NOT preventing it from happening.

Archer is someone who in attempt to save everyone eventually was put on a situation were he CANNOT say anyone.

His character is very much how it can come biting you in the ass.

Shirou is the one that understands that he cannot save everyone, he can try there are limits but that only comes in Heaven's Feel when he is forced into having to make a decision.

>>159281371

I mean, the Lolis were having endless badass scenes while they were molesting each other long before Shirou showed up. Just saiyen'

>>159281510
But Shirou is is Shirou.

>>159281455

Fair enough! Now we shall have an epic fucking sword duel to decide which one is right!

But not until the season finale. We need to save up some budget for that so lets spend 6 more episodes talking it out first.

(thanks for the fun debate btw)

Ask Uncle Sam, he's never wrong

>>159281508
>No, Archer motivation wasnt that, Archer attempted to save everyone to the point he made a contract to be a counterguardian.
Yes, in one circumstance in which the people he tried to save were all fated to die. He made the contract to be able to reverse their fate.

However, he was already choosing sides even before was he made a CG. He was okay with that. This was made clear in UBW and in Extra.

His issue started because, once he became a CG, he no longer had a choice, he just did what he was sent to.

>Shirou is the one that understands that he cannot save everyone
No, Archer knew this very well too when he was alive. His issue wasn't that he couldn't save everyone, but that as a CG he was merely cleaning up, and not doing any actual saving.

The difference between them is that Shirou got to know, through Archer, how shitty things could get and yet he still decided that the path of justice was worth following. It was that resolve, in the face of what awaited him, what changed Archer's decision.
Shirou probably also learned that contracts with the Planet were a bad deal.

>>159269277
Pffhhahaha

Could you all just read a few books before debating about this ? It'd be great if /a/ could have a debate using arguments that weren't debunked thousands of years ago.

File: e48456d4833dfcb7a22ee4cd128e4cda.jpg (58KB, 500x697px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 500x697px

Ed Elric is my Seigi no Mikata.

>>159282329
Shut up SAO shitter.

>>159265364
>who is my ideal hero
That one guy who whipped his dick out in front of a feminist parade in brazil. There's a picture of him leaning back with the crowd basically at his throat, but he has the biggest shit eating grin on his face. I wouldn't call him an ally of justice or anything like that, but that madman is my hero.

>>159270994
If that was true Shinji ought to have cleaned the worms out of her with his cock.

File: all hail lelouch.jpg (44KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 1280x720px

>>159271166
The Emperor shall guide us to victory.

>>159279851
>If the human race will die without the shedding of innocent blood, better that it die.

Geralt go back playing Gwent.

>>159269051
only right answer

File: HoJ.jpg (292KB, 850x1200px) Image search: [Google]

292KB, 850x1200px

>>159280656
Fate Grand Order proved that Kiritsugu became a Hero of Justice who saves the world and kills Angry Manjew if he follows his ideals to the end. And all it required was him not meeting Iri and letting her fuck up his life.

Ideals & Dreams > Bitches & Whores

>>159279851
Anon if he lets the human race die that would include the person he's trying to protect.

He's not being a Hero. He's being a selfish asshole.

Stops villains, save people, looks good, cool and powerful while doing so.

My ideal Hero of Justice would be someone like Ryoma Nagare. He's fine with helping people who are in trouble, but he's also willing to kill the people who deserve it which is an important aspect of justice to me.

>>159282946

The act of saving her in the moment despite the fact that she will eventually be one of those that dies as well isn't the point. The point is to not allow the human race to "save," itself by damning itself via an unforgivably immoral act.

To put it in simple terms, a Warrior or a Rogue would take innocent life to save the world, but a Paladin wouldn't because they are just as concerned with what lies beyond this world as they are with the world. Salvation which damns you isn't salvation.

>>159283087
>Killing is an important aspect of justice.
Just because you can see in one eye doesn't mean you still aren't blind in the other.

>>159283087

Some that live deserve death, some that die deserve life.

Can you give it to them, Frodo?

Do not be so eager to deal out Death and Judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

>>159283181
>The point is to not allow the human race to "save" itself by damning itself via an unforgivably immoral act.
Anon you went full retarded. Humanity has been saving itself by doing unforgivable acts since the beginning.

Also why the fuck are you letting one innocent person represent humanity. She isn't fucking Jesus, you know the best part of Jesus was he went through the sacrifice and saved humanity via it.

File: Akainu.png (860KB, 1041x720px) Image search: [Google]

860KB, 1041x720px

>100+ replies
>No Akainu
Step back All Might, here's the true symbol of justice.

>>159283267

Please give all examples of times the human species would have gone extinct if it had not done something unforgivably immoral.

I'll wait.

>>159283210
>>159283259
People who commit crimes should be punished. The problem with imprisonment is that theirs no guaranty that the criminal will learn anything or feel remorse for their actions. Yes death is a punishment you can't take back but it stops the criminal from hurting some one else again in the future.

>>159282851
>attachments to females ruin lives
Not the first time that happened desu. No wonder sociopaths rule the world.

samurai flamenco

>>159283346

And just think, with your Death Note and the alias Kira you can make those decisions for everyone and become the God of this new world!

Go back to bleeding out in the warehouse, Light.

>>159283316
I'll give it to you the moment you answer my question of why are you projecting one person as humanity "soul"? That person represents the smallest fragment of humanity, you know the worst part.

Everyone is innocent. By refusing the "unforgiably immoral" act, that innocent person is condemning millions of innocents to die. Yet those who want the person to do the "unforgivable immoral" act they are somehow in the wrong.

You mean to tell me its better for billions of innocents to die because one innocent cannot die? That isn't justice. That is selfishness.

>Provide all examples
Seriously mate?

>>159283468

You're arguing that utilitarianism is the only moral act and the only way for justice to prevail. Where is the cutoff point? 500 innocents? 1 million innocents? 75% of the population? Which 75% do you save so that the 25% you deem worthy can continue procreating? How many innocents is too many before preserving the human race's life is too high a price?

I'm not projecting one person as humanity's soul, I'm carrying through the logic of allowing an innocent to die so that others may live to its logical conclusion and finding it unacceptable. The argument inevitably breaks down once you start drawing arbitrary lines because others will draw the arbitrary lines in other places, and usually for selfish reasons, which undermines the entire premise that saving the innocent at the expense of all mankind is the supposedly the selfish thing.

Preservation of the species coming at the cost of unwilling blood sacrifice is too high a cost. At least for someone who believes in justice.

Now, I'm still waiting for you to tell me all the times that Humanity would have gone extinct if we didn't do something horribly morally repugnant. Or hell, forget all the times. Give me three. I'll wait.

>>159283058
Is it possible to be a hero of justice and yet not involved in stopping villainy in any way?
Including defeating monsters.

>>159284092

Was Mother Teresa a Hero of Justice? She didn't stop villainy per se, just helped those in need.

>>159283648
Your view is far too idealistic. You have to realise justice and the entirety of ethics was created by men, otherwise moral relativism would not exist.

So yeah, sacrificing someone for the sake of a group is the right thing to do if it's necessary, if you pick any other option you're a hypocrite that's more worried about his ideals, i.e. imaginary concepts, than the people in front of him.

>>159283648
>You're arguing that utilitarianism is the only moral act and the only way for justice to prevail.
Are you implying utilitarianism isn't the only moral way and only way for justice to prevail?

>Where is the cutoff point?
>75% of the population.
If you have to kill 75% out of 100% you're not saving anyone. Its all in numbers of who you are saving.

I'm carrying through the logic of allowing an innocent to die so that others may live to its logical conclusion and finding it unacceptable.

You're not being logical, you're being emotional. To find one life is equal to millions is stupid and not logical in any sense.

1 life is equal to 1 life.

>Preservation of the species coming at the cost of unwilling blood sacrifice is too high a cost.
Again you're being emotional.

You are devaluing a species who had to fight tooth, nail, and spill a lot more blood than one person, who put their entire life's work into getting it where it was over the survival of one person who will erase that hard work. How is this justice?

File: justice.jpg (290KB, 994x559px) Image search: [Google]

290KB, 994x559px

>>159268525
>>159272121
>>159283372
Came here to post best justice, glad to see justice is still alive and well

File: 1492760128376.jpg (49KB, 769x428px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 769x428px

Justice is a lie.

>>159284164

So your view is crouched in the idea that there are no larger consequences attached to ideals. That we live in an ontologically mundane universe in which are actions have no consequences whatsoever beyond their results, thus the ends always justifies the means.

This is the exact conversation that happened above by the way. In the end it comes down to whether or not the theoretical hero making the decision believes in larger consequences. Whether he does or does not has a profound, even decisive influence on how he weighs the many MANY factors when considering the not-at-all-simple question "What cost is worth paying the preserve the lives of the human race?"

By the way, saying that in all "necessary," cases (how do you define necessity by the way?) not sacrificing the minority to preserve the majority is hypocrisy is a really biased and limited viewpoint. Even going by your own "morals and ethics don't matter when the situation is dire enough, we are 100% certain that metaphysical consequences do not exist and we can do whatever we want without consequences" viewpoint, you can't say that so definitively. Some people with your view would say its better to sacrifice 10 average people to save one genius, or to sacrifice people without useful skills to ease society's burden during rebuilding, or to sacrifice those who aren't able-bodied to increase survival odds for the survivors. In other words, you're way oversimplifying even your own views, let alone the ones I'm arguing for.

Which for the record don't necessarily reflect my own. This is an intellectual exercise for me. Every flavor of heroic ideology has its own merits and demerits. That's why Shirou was the start of this topic: the Shirous of UBW and HF (and/or Prisma Illya) are incompatible ideologically, but they're all heroic in their own context.

>>159279851
No amount of evil done upon you justifies the level of evil she committed.
And he's not being a hero of any kind of justice.
He's just being a selfish retard who's willing to throw all of humanity under the bus to protect the ruined monster of a human being that he has a boner for.

File: 1498868523731.gif (2MB, 390x205px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 390x205px

>>159283648
This entire argument is a slippery slope logical fallacy. This entire notion is that a line in the sand cannot be drawn because it would naturally be arbitrary, and therefore not just

>>159284537
That wasn't the Anon who responded to you.

>We are 100% metaphysical consequences do not exist and we can do whatever we want without consequences
You're straw manning by the way in your post.

>>159265364
President Funny Valentine

>>159284382

YOU'RE arguing from a personally favored premise and claiming it as pure logic, and also claiming that emotion has no place in an ethical or moral debate, both of which are pretty flawed ways to try to counter an argument.

To reiterate a previous point: somebody who believes in ontological consequences for actions beyond their basic ends here in the material world, would say that our species has not survived BECAUSE we fight and spill innocent blood, but IN SPITE of that. They would argue that a morally evil act has never preserved the species as a whole, and in the event that such an act WERE necessary to preserve the species as a whole it would not be worth it because the act would corrupt is all and lead to worse consequences later. In other words, Humanity can't be saved by making a deal with the devil because if we're all damned we're not humanity anymore. This is not an emotional argument, it is indeed a logical one if you believe in metaphysical consequences.

So in fact, a hero who prevents the murder of an innocent even knowing that a million people will die because they did it is not saying one life is equal to millions. They are saying that the act of "selfishly" (for lack of a better term) slaying that innocent to preserve those millions lives is the greater evil because it is an irredeemable act that will stain those who were saved so that death would have been preferable in the grand scheme.

>>159272725
The ultimate hero is someone with the (literal) power to give (literal) strength to others so they can fight for themselves.

>>159284640

The slippery slope is an "informal fallacy," not a logical fallacy. If the argument is internally consistent break its own premise when examine all the points along the slope thereby making itself farcical, its a legitimate form of argument.

File: Muramasa_2017-06-12_22-48-34.png (757KB, 2074x1224px) Image search: [Google]

757KB, 2074x1224px

This man fights for justice even when no one recognizes his effort.

>>159284382
>To find one life is equal to millions is stupid and not logical in any sense
This

File: Confessing 2 a Paladin.gif (544KB, 600x338px) Image search: [Google]

544KB, 600x338px

>>159284782
>In fact, a hero who prevents the murder of an innocent even knowing that a million people will die because they did it is not saying one life is equal to millions.
>They are saying that the act of "selfishly" (for lack of a better term) slaying that innocent to preserve those millions lives is the greater evil because it is an irredeemable act that will stain those who were saved so that death would have been preferable in the grand scheme.

Let me explain this you, Anon. If metaphysical consequences are relevant, the "act of selfishly slaying that innocent to preserve those millions lives is the greater evil."

Is irrelevant because the action of slaying the innocent will fall on the person/people doing it and not the party not engaging in the action. To claim to preserve million of lives is the greater evil and stains those who are saved is also saying to save one life no matter how innocent and allow the death of millions will not stain the one saved.

You are saying its evil to let millions of innocents die, but in return the one person that lives will not be stained of their deaths. Its better to let millions of innocent people die because its an "irredeemable act" to take one life.

Not taking one life, takes the lives of millions, but its okay because the lives of those other people were irrelevant when compared to this one person. If this one person died, it would be an evil act and letting those other millions die prevented an irredeemable act from occurring.

This is not justice, this is not good, this is just mass murder.

>>159284882
>The slippery slope is an "informal fallacy," not a logical fallacy
Okay, I added an extra word. I'm tired. Sue me. The point still stands because you, an individual, are arguing against an idea of justice you feel creates a situation where other individuals arbitrarily create their own definitions of justice. You are not an infallible figure of authority here that gets to decide one person is innocent just because they don't want to die and are being controlled by an outside force. You paint the lives you weigh against this single life as colorless and meaningless in comparison

File: Kiritsugu.jpg (70KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 500x281px

>>159285101

I have a couple of counter points I could throw at this, but honestly I'm tired and its gone from a one on one debate to a three on one debate at this point so I'm going to tap out rather than continue the devil's advocating. Good game brah.

PS: Though I don't actually endorse most of the views I was arguing, Utilitarianism is still pretty shit. Poor Kerrytugu learned that one the hard way...

>>159285251

>You paint the lives you weigh against this single life as colorless and meaningless in comparison

...okay, I'll throw one more thing out there since this appeared. The argument was not to reduce the lives involved to meaninglessness, it was to put the moral emphasis in the decision on the ACTIONS rather than the lives. Reducing the decision of who lives and who dies to the purely NUMERICAL of all things is the highest form of making lives colorless and meaningless.

ok, now I'm done for reals.

>>159285259
A dead person is better than a billion dead people, isn't that hard.

>>159282851
Omg. Where can I read more about f/go's Kiritsugu?

File: KbaeTlu.png (648KB, 1038x576px) Image search: [Google]

648KB, 1038x576px

>>159285402

Enjoy being the last man alive on earth

>>159284782
>>159285101
Can the man who killed Batman's parents get credited for all the lives batman has saved?

Without him, there would be no batman.

>>159285351
>Reducing the decision of who lives and who dies to the purely NUMERICAL of all things is the highest form of making lives colorless and meaningless
Sure, but at least it is equally meaningless. You either need to weight both sides in an equally unbiased, or equally biased view. Or at least try. As it stands, you put the singular person that you know to be innocent (we'll say for the sake of the argument) against a heaping blob of faceless meatsacks you label people, but don't bother to say/think about whether they are innocent or not too. Sakura wasn't only eating people that were objectively evil as the shadow that roamed the night, she ate EVERYONE she came across and could manage to get. Just because Sakura herself was innocent at the time does not mean that the killing should've been allowed to continue, or that it was just to protect her even knowing that the killings were occurring but weren't been consciously committed by her

>>159285532

I think a Batman writer would argue things weren't bad enough for Batman to be necessary until a good man like Bruce Wayne could be gunned down in the streets for no reason. It was the status of the world that created Batman, not the guy who killed his parents.

At least that's the idea that the Nolan trilogy was putting forth. Your idea sounds like a variant of the old "Batman actually creates his own villains and greater crimes because escalation," which is always a neat direction too.

File: Hangetsu.jpg (158KB, 598x688px) Image search: [Google]

158KB, 598x688px

>>159265364

>>159282851
Why is Servant Kiritsugu brown with white hair? He doesn't use projection magic.

>>159283346
But just as there is a chance they might not learn from their actions, they also might. The issue is that who are we to judge at what point it is okay to say that someone deserves to die? It's no unheard of that innocents get sent to death row, or people who are willing to change their ways. The death sentence is not about prevention, it is about "justice". To show to those who have suffered that something is being done to compensate for their suffering.

>>159267632
>kills hundreds of innocent people because Kiara was only in the cult business for shits and giggles
>chaotic evil
Emiya Alter is an anti-hero, not an ally of justice.

>>159286099
He uses the time magic shit though, and that still burns him from overuse of magic circuits

>>159269765
>protects other villains from heroes
>Standing up for those who no one else will stand up for.
Fits Touma pretty well.

File: Emperor GC.jpg (195KB, 1200x800px) Image search: [Google]

195KB, 1200x800px

>>159265364
>wants to save humankind
>does his best despite his flaws and mistakes
>suffers in a torture device fo 10k years just so that humankind would survive
>never gives up

>>159280597
same

I think the original Greek definition of hero is best. Simply men and women of great strength and courage favoured by the gods and celebrated for their deeds. They're individually superior, approved by society and universe.

>>159265364
Shirou.

File: YHVH.jpg (31KB, 300x348px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 300x348px

>>159265364

>>159286579
>falling so hard for imperial propaganda
The guy is a corpse barely held together with obscure science and sacrifices, it has nothing to do with willpower.
Your precious god emperor is but a prisoner of your ruling class and has been tortured for centuries now, you'd have to wonder if the reason why they don't risk releasing his soul to the warp is that he'd come back to take vengeance.

>>159282851
He's still immensely broken as a person in that situation though.

Even his final ascension had Iri's ghost haunting him, its heavily implied that its not the grail fucking with him there.
Also, one of his skills gives him EX luck, but at the cost of giving everyone around him misfortune.

File: kenshiro-fist-of-the-north-star-28807-1920x1200.jpg (168KB, 1920x1200px) Image search: [Google]

168KB, 1920x1200px

>>159265364
Kenshiro from fist of the north star. None of that Batman/Shiro bullshit. Somebody kills > Kenshiro kills him. As it should be. No ''muh murderous criminals are humans tooooo'' autistic speeches.

File: geralt smug.jpg (83KB, 434x434px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 434x434px

>>159286922
ADB, pls, no one is buying your shit

File: Shiroyama fucking Kyousuke.jpg (25KB, 225x350px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 225x350px

>>159280165
>>159280743
>>159286524

>>159280119
He takes her power, she still tries to stick up for him but he convinces her to run away, Main girl's older brother comes in a helicopter and saves him at the last moment.

>>159286151
>death sentence
>"justice"
No.
The death sentence is a deterrence to the others. There's a reason why its reserved for serious crimes.
Imprisonment is "justice" as much as the death sentence is, but the difference is that the death sentence carries a message to those that did not commit the crime, the message to not commit the crime if they value their lives.

>>159287306
Kenshiro works on the surroundings he live in. It's a savage world so you need a savage hero to bring justice and protecting the weak.

I don't think Kenshiro's justice will work on a civilized society.

File: Dragon Ball - V23C339 - Page 12.png (429KB, 1024x1536px) Image search: [Google]

429KB, 1024x1536px

>>159269362
Where the hell does this idea come from?

>>159288274
Trying to make Goku like Superman, mostly.

>>159265691
There are no full blooded sayains. They're lawful neutral at best.

File: 1403760867622.png (40KB, 228x316px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 228x316px

>>159286878
What a handsome fella! Who is this great individual with a strong moral character?

>>159269362
>Literally fights Frieza because he thinks he's evil and then decides to spare him because he begs for his life and Goku is merciful
>Gives a bunch of moralfag speeches to frieza

How the fuck do you read the King Piccolo saga or Saiyan Saga or Namek Saga and think that Goku being a good guy is a coincidence?

>>159290585
The moralfag stuff is dub only and wasn't King Piccolo because he was responsible for killing his friends?

>>159291104
>The moralfag stuff is dub only

Not during Namek Saga.

Read the manga.

>arguing about justice in sacrificing lives
Justice is entirely subjective. It involves the defining of "good" and "evil", and that is where it falls apart.

You can kill the minority to let the majority live, sure, thats probably a good thing, and you have now stained your hands with blood of the innocent.
Or you can refuse to sacrifice the minority because you do not want to commit the act of killing, thats probably a good thing as well, and by doing so you indirectly killed people anyway.

Really though, at that point you might as well go multitrack drifting on the trolley problem and kill em all, the kids that took that option already figured it out.

>>159292077

Killing kids isn't justice by /a/ standards, but touching them inappropriately is apparently.