Does Freeza deserve redemption?
Look at Gokus friends. Almost every single one of his started as an enemy, rival, or outright antagonist. Yamcha, Tien, Chioatzu all started as enemies. Piccolo started as an antagonist and outright caused the death of some of Gokus beloved friends. Vegeta is the biggest contender, downright causing the death of every single major friend of Goku via Nappa and downright just being an evil person. Even 18 and 17 have had their time as villains and are now friendly allies.
All of these characters got their redemption and became allies of Goku.
Is Freeza allowed to do the same? Would that be too far for the franchise?
Yamcha was just a stupid kid living in the desert and stealing from people because he was an autisic loser that couldn't talk to women.
Tien was essentially brainwashed as a child by a serial killer and a serial killer's demented brother
Piccolo was the reincarnation of the evil half of a good person who grew up with "kill goku" hardwired into his DNA and despite that, he never killed anyone innocent unless he had to iirc. I think he only scared a few people and acted in self defense when attacked as a child. and when he did attack the dog, he seemed surprised he even had powers afterwards.
Vegeta? He was told ever since he was born that he was an elite warrior and that he had to keep fighting and dominating others to get stronger. He also had to keep fighting others to prove his worth to Frieza, who essentially owned him for several years after he killed his whole race and family (except Tarble, but fuck Tarble)
17 and 18 were just rebellious kids that wanted to have fun and were only going to kill Goku because 16 was programmed specifically for it and that thought "eh maybe this will be fun". never killed anyone though.
Frieza has lived his entire existence getting EVERYTHING he ever wanted. By force if they weren't kissing his ass. He delights in torturing people. He has been given SEVERAL redemption moments in the past and he rejected them. It is 100% out of character for him to EVER become a "good guy" or even a neutral character at this point.
>>158465301
I disagree with these points for a few key facts. You're undermining the acts they did. 18 and 17 were still bad people. In Trunks timeline they did destroy everything and were killed for it. There is no reason to give them a free pass in the natural timeline. Yet they were given it.
Vegeta is a killer. He has 0 compassion. Did you forget on Namek when he single handedly destroyed and entire Namekian village, just cause he could? You can't argue he was Freezas lackey at that point, he was directly going against Freezas orders what with the killing of Cui.
Both Piccolos are the same person. Majunior just has Piccolos memories. It doesn't matter, Piccolo still killed people and still attempted world domination.
Freeza is still able to become a good character. It is entirely possible within the franchise. When Goku was going to leave cause Freeza said no, he instantly changed his tune. He's willing to change.
>>158465011
Redemption only raises your pussy levels.
>>158465301
You try to twist it into your narrative, but that does not make it right.
Vegeta helped in that Namekian genocide, like he didn't even need to kill them he coulda just taken the Dragon Ball and been "lol tf you gonna do bout it?" but nah he killed them cause he got off killing people
The fuck are you guys talking about? Super is fucking shit and the narrative toilet paper. They will do whatever pleases more Japs, whether or not it makes any sense at all. You should all fucking shot yourselves in the face for even considering the narrative aspects of this steaming pile of excrement.
>>158466234
>You should all fucking shot yourselves in the face
>shot
you should chop your hands off and shove them down yoru throat for making such an error
>>158466234
I was kind of glad this thread was cancer free until I saw your post.
>>158465482
Trunks timeline androids =! main timeline androids.Trunks himself acknowledged the fact.
>>158465301
>It is 100% out of character for him to EVER become a "good guy" or even a neutral character at this point.
I don't know, but what would be out of character by now would be he stopping to hate goku and vegeta. Even vegeta had reasons to stop hating goku, they were from the same species and frieza gave them a common enemy , kinda the same than happened to piccolo when raditz came to Earth. Now, the Universe is facing certain extinction, but there's not an enemy they can both hate, or that is worse than frieza, everybody is on the tournament to save their own asses. Even the androids got some kind of redemption because Cell's threat loomed over them.
>>158465011
Realistically speaking? His toys sell, they want him in the series. But he can't stay as a villain, would be killed right away. They'll do with him what Kishimoto did with Orochimaru. Freeza will remain Freeza, just without his sick ambition, it's what was causing him to faial over and over again.
Also if I were you I'd start to accept the concept of Freeza having either a son or a daughter. Trunks, Goten, Marron and Bra are going to have a new best friend for the future series.
I can just imagine Frieza having banter with Mayuri and Orochimaru about how they got away with all the immoral shit they have done
>>158465011
>Does Freeza deserve redemption?
No. And he won't be redeemed.
Freeza being redeemed kind of flies in the face of everything the character stands for. I can see villains like the androids and buu getting redemption because their true nature isn't evil. There would be no way to rewrite Freeza as good without completely reworking him as a character. The most they can do is keep him as an uneasy ally.
>Freeza can't be revived by the Earth's Dragon Balls anymore
>if Goku actually intends on keep up his end of the bargain, he'd have to use the Namek Balls
>using the most precious treasure of the Namekians to revive the guy who nearly genocided them
This won't end well
>>158467779
Honestly I've always had a problem with "hey can we use your dragon balls to unfuse the god of the universe? he accidentally combined with this red guy and he doesn't really like it"
>>158467779
That's not their agreement though.
Goku said he won't revive him, but Freeza himself can revive (durr) himself with Super DBs once they win.
He pointed out there's no guarantee he will be the best one and thus the one to get the balls and instead asked for Earth DBs and Goku said ok.
So they will simply fulfill their end of the bargain, give him Earth DBs, Freeza will summon Shen Long and realize he can't revive himself just as his time runs out and he'll go back to hell as a gag, the end.
>>158465301
Agreed. It also took a lot of fucking development for Vegeta to even come around. He only tried not being an asshole when Trunks was killed and didn't truly get his redemption until the very end of Z. Goku even believed Vegeta was irredeemable after their first fight.
>>158468031
4D chess
>>158465482
C18 and 17 of main timeline are very different from their future selves.
>>158468136
What's so chess-like about predicting the most obvious outcome in a cartoon for children?
>>158465011
If he did he would not have been stuck in hell for all those years and unable to reincarnate.
>>158465011
>Vegeta is the biggest contender, downright causing the death of every single major friend of Goku via Nappa and downright just being an evil person.
Krillin didn't die.
>>158465011
>Does Freeza deserve redemption?
No. The difference between Freeza, Piccolo, and Vegeta is that the latter two could work together and even support Goku when their lives were on the line. Freeza didn't HAVE to shoot that dog guy through the arm, he did it as an excuse to scratch Goku's face with his death beam. The second he thinks Goku, the strongest member of the team, is going to be defeated, he's going to try to kill him himself.
>>158468289
honestly killing the dog like that was a very early vegeta thing to do
>>158467779
FOR FUCKS SAKE ARE YOU DENSE
THEY WILL WISH THE OTHER UNIVERSES BACK / EVERYTHING ZENO HAS DESTROYED OR KILLED
USING THAT WISH IT'S FUCKING EASY TO GET FRIEZA BACK AS WELL AS HE WOULD FALL UNDER THAT CATEGORY
FOR FUCKS SAKE MAYBE EVERYONE DIES AND GETS RESURRECTED BY ANOTHER UNIVERSE WHO CARES
If Naruto can call Obito the coolest guy, then Goku can forgive Frieza.
>>158465301
Vegeta and Frieza are essentially the same.
They're both the son of a king of some kind of strong race, and they kill and terrorize people and don't care about human lives.
Yes Vegeta is evil for most of DBZ, even when he was already with the good guys. See: killing namekians, killing the unconscious ginyus, causing collateral damage during the fight with C18 like blowing up trucks etc. (she thought it was fun to "trick" a good guy into doing that, but she didn't know vegeta doesn't care), letting cell transform because why not, letting babidi control him and kill people just to fight goku, etc.
Vegeta is the last person to deserve redemption, honestly. He got at least 5 chances for redemption and still fucked it up every time.
>>158468457
>causing collateral damage during the fight with C18 like blowing up trucks etc. (she thought it was fun to "trick" a good guy into doing that, but she didn't know vegeta doesn't care),
Anime only filler.
>>158465011
YES.
And it makes sense. At this point, if I was Frieza, I would be fed up with losing and getting sent to Hell so many times.
Seriously, what does Frieza actually want? People say he just want to torture, but that's missing a big key element of his character. He wants to continue ruling the universe. That's his ultimate goal. He could strike a deal with Goku to let him to do whatever he wants to with the universe as long as he pretends that Earth doesn't exist.
If anything, it would make Frieza look fucking retarded if he continued trying to thwart Goku. At some point he must have realised that his humiliation is simply too grand to surpass, and there's no point in trying to defeat him and suffer even more humiliation at Goku's hands.
The tournament is a good way for him to get back the respect he thinks he deserves. Look at Frost, and look at the facade he put on to gain the trust of people. Their characters aren't that far off.
>>158468362
Yes, but he also used it as an excuse to hit/scratch Goku.
They are setting up Frieza to be a permanent ally
>redemption
Stop this shit.
Goku has never cared for stuff other than facing strong opponents.
If Freeza manages to be resurrected, and doesn't go full autism and straight away attacks Goku and the rest, nobody will care what he has done so far.
/end
Theoretically it's possible that he gets redeemed, Vegeta was pretty much sold as genuine evil for the longest fucking time, even as late as the Cell saga he was still a complete sociopath.
At the same time though I get the feeling that even someone as retarded as Toriyama acknowledges that Frieza is irredeemable. He's pretty much the only villain that has other characters actually comment on just how bad he is. On top of that, his evilness is part of his charm I would say, rather than just being an arbitrary criteria.
That might change because Toriyama has alzheimers and Toei is completely retarded, but I think even these braindamaged hacks are capable of understand how ridiculous it would look if the person who genocided your entire race becomes your new pal.
>>158465482
didn't goku give freeza that chance twice on namek and almsot got himself and others killed for it?
I mean hell, telling krillin to not decapitate vegeta still seems like an error.
>>158471423
>telling krillin to not decapitate vegeta still seems like an error
It mostly helped them.
>>158471423
yes
however that was 20~ish years ago?
a lot has changed since then
frieza went from being the strongest in universe to knowing he is nowhere near top 10
that can change people
>>158471734
>frieza went from being the strongest in universe to knowing he is nowhere near top 10
and becoming top 3 once again after 4 months
>>158471759
Yes, by doing something he's never done. Train.
Training alone changes the mentality of someone. I've been going to the gym the past year and it's definitely improved my outlook on life.
The fact that Frieza actually trained is character development in of itself.
>>158471815
Very true. I hope they talk about it somewhere. Freezanot fucking Friezashould learn about the tanoshii of fighting and effort rather than sitting on his ass conquering a 28 planets universe.
I'll speak for Vegeta.
You could say Vegeta had reasons to top the way the was.
A saiyan, a warriors race, puppets of Frieza. Vegeta hated that, didn't he? then he learned it from Dodoria that Frieza was the one who destroyed his planet.
First, he wanted the Dragon Balls and eternal youth; why? wasn't it to prove himself superior to Goku? "the SSJ legend"? as an ultimate conqueror of the universe? mere words. He lost to Goku, his pride was hurt. He wanted to archieve and grow powerful
He failed to defeat Frieza. He cried and begged Goku to avenge their race.
What else? if Goku can archive SSJ, so can he.
then life and twists began to happen
He had a troublesome life.
He needed to calm his mind, archieve peace by his own.
Vegeta was always intelligent. He is smart and he learns from his mistakes.
---
Frieza is a monster. He fully knows what he does, and he does it anyways. He wants and means to do what he does.
A total dick.
I don't know. Facts are facts; changes are changes.
I'm considering what >>158471815 said.. I could question it, but it's a good point anyway
Deserve? No..
But I would like to see development in his character and relation with Goku
Although it would be strange for him to be something other than an asshole
>>158465011
Naw. He's too strong. He can kill the db crew at any time without warning. Vegeta and Piccolo at least need oxygen to survive.