What exactly is "bad writing"?

google literary criticism

The writing I don't like

>>158387386
Exactly, judgments of quality are inherently subjective

>>158387386
/thread

>>158387322
eromanga sensei

boku no hero academia

SAO

>>158387322
Go to syosetu.com and read some random shit.

With proper published stuff it can be subjective but syosetu is like the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality.

>>158387322
The most objective way to define it:
When stuff doesn't make sense. Everything is held together with bubblegum, exposition being used to introduce things, plot holes, PIS, scenes that are just happening because the audience is watching e.t.c.

>>158387386
No you fucking nigger, bad writing is writing that I don't like, if you don't like it you just have shit taste.

>>158387840
Correct answer
>>158387386
Brainlets answer.

>>158387877
But his post was badly written to me, therefore it's wrong.

>>158387322
>literary criticism
Literary criticism is about the analysis of literary works, not a value judgement or an evaluation of quality therein.

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study and observe re:zero, madoka magica, and steins;gate for some popular examples of series with poorly conceived writing. "just because" plot devices, shoehorned justifications, weak/inconsistent characters, interactions to drive the plot instead of as a result of the plot, etc.

>>158387765
>>158387786
>>158387803
these are also examples as well as code geass.

>>158387840 is a superior answer to >>158387386

don't let my massive intellect frighten you

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>>158387900
why do you think people started analyzing shit?

>>158387998
I think Madoka Magica isn't as much for the story but more for the characters. However I don't think I will ever be satisfied with Re: Zero at all.

>>158387872
This guy gets it.

>>158387322
Evangelion.

>>158388056
yeah like the character who's immortal but we're supposed to feel sorry for her teenage angst. or the shoehorned sperg tsundere just because we need one for the waifufags.

>>158387322
Writing is bad when it makes poor choices or unintentionally does things which would be poor choices if they were intentional.

What makes a choice in writing poor is largely subjective, though most can agree that choosing to convey essential information to the viewer via character dumping exposition to a silent listener is an example of a poor decision.

There's more nuance to it than that, but there's not enough space in a single post to explain it. Repetition can be poor writing if it accomplishes nothing, or good writing if it accomplishes something. The distinction is both subjective and not subjective --a person may enjoy repetition that accomplishes nothing (so it's not bad to them in a value-sense) but there is still a clear distinction between it and repetition that accomplishes something. Similarly, depth and nuance in a work can be a good thing or simply make the whole thing obscure, esoteric and incomprehensible. Even if someone prefers the latter, it's easy to recognize when depth is effectively communicated and integrated into surface experience vs when it's obscured or hidden and expects the audience to puzzle it out. Once again, both subjective and not subjective. A person might enjoy writing that is bad practice, and thus not bad value.

It might be easiest to just say bad writing is writing which has fewer avenues for an audience to find it good. A story that requires you've read the entire works of Jung to even begin to enjoy is probably bad writing, even if someone who's read Jung loves it. A story that requires you to have never seen anything it borrows its cliches from in order to not find it dull, unoriginal and derivative is probably bad writing, even if someone that's never seen any of that before might find it amazing. Bad writing in this sense is very often popular and commercially successful.

>>158388078
not sure if I can think of better written female characters in anime than in evangelion.

>>158387998
By your logic, every anime is poorly written.

>>158388189
Look I liked Mami OK.

>>158388245
That's right.

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>>158388245
Correct

>>158387877
>brainlet
Can someone give me a quick rundown on this meme? I see it everywhere all the sudden.

>>158387386
On point.

>>158388245
not really, it just means you've only watched anime that fits that criteria. perfectly normal for someone who's watched under twenty series.

>>158388251
who?

>>158388196
>What makes a choice in writing poor is largely subjective, though most can agree that choosing to convey essential information to the viewer via character dumping exposition to a silent listener is an example of a poor decision
You're describing intersubjectivity

>The distinction is both subjective and not subjective...
This is just subjectivity

Plot holes, illogical conclusions, "it's a mmo" to justify the rules of a world, world building that doesn't make in context, fluctuating power levels, just from the top of my head.

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>>158387998
Or Eva for that matter.

>>158388245
Pretty much

>>158388380
pure contrarianism. I understand your aimless anger, though. it's why you're here. let it out, I'll allow it.

>>158388378
overlord and grimgar are written just fine and are isekai.

>>158388428
>what I disagree with is automatically contrarianism
Eva is still written like shit. The characters are decent though.

>>158388507
>a character driven story with decently written characters is written poorly
? and no, calling the best selling single series of all time that completely changed the medium "bad" in any way is as close as you can get to textbook contrarianism.

>>158388583
>appeal to authority
Stop posting.

>>158388583
>the best selling single series of all time that completely changed the medium
Sorry, how does that make it inherently good again?

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Please explain this objectivity meme because i don't understand it

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>>158387322
The way this anime ended.

>ITT: people who waste their time trying to convince everyone including themselves that anime is a medium beyond beach episodes and onsens

>>158387840
>Everything is held together with bubblegum
>PIS
Could you explain these things, preferably the latter?
>exposition being used to introduce things
>scenes that are just happening because the audience is watching e.t.c
Aren't those pretty much the same thing?

>>158388645
Starts with an S and ends with a K

>>158388809
>exposition being used to introduce things
>scenes that are just happening because the audience is watching e.t.c
>Aren't those pretty much the same thing?
Exposition scenes are always for the audience but the latter include also voyeuristic fanservice and shit like that

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>>158387322
Easiest was to spot bad writing is to analyze plot events and try to see if the progression was illogical to the point where it breaks suspension of belief. Samurai Flamenco is classic and extremely obvious case of bad writing after a certain episode.

A story that establishes rules and breaks them at its convenience, has characters that behave irrationally or out-of-character without good reason, or where the viewer is provided a non-diegetic understanding of the narrative to justify the direction of the plot.

Case and points for each:
1. Can't think of a better example than the ending of Ghostbusters. Crossing the streams was established as destroying the universe, yet they do it and everything is just okay for no reason. For an anime example look at anything written by Kamachi.
2. So many anime are guilty of this, but Mayoiga is a particularly egregious example; it's questionable whether anyone behaves in-character at any point, the entire show is a bunch of abstract nonsense.
3. Any show with talking heads and exposition dumps. See: Re:Creators. Meteora's monologues are borderline offensive to the viewer's intelligence.

>>158388368
so what anime doesn't fit that criteria? oh master of knowledge

Raising questions that can not and are not answered, leaving major conclusions to the reader, failing to give adequate explanations for unbelievable plot twists, using symbolism without reason

Childish ideals backed up by plot conveniences (read: plot armor promoting idiocy), forcing character development through poor trauma, melodramatic subplots with scarcely explored side characters

Using low iq information to generate interest (this is the big one, humans with poor intelligence can be entertained by information far less complex than humans with a high intelligence), a standard (median iq) is to be used as the bar separating differences in quality - arguments between those above and below this bar are essentially pointless and as the gap between them grows bigger criticisms such as "your taste is shit" are likely to become more accurate than any objective dispute the two may have concerning the material

>>158389094
Mayoiga was fucking hilarious. I wish we had more anime like that

>>158389094
how do you determine when a character doing something is acting out-of-character, character growth, or something that has always been part of their personality but not shown

>>158388645
People jumping through hoops so that they can push their opinions on others. They hate the simple and correct answer of subjectivity, so they search for a way to say that their opinion holds some objective merit.

>>158388809
>everything is held together with bubblegum
When what's happening is not realistic (from a plot perspective, not superpowers and shit) and is just there for the plot, pretty much deux ex machina, some random examples:
>oh/wow, my old friend/relative/random guy conveniently happens to be a genius/superman/god and can fix this shit we can't normally get out of
>enemies much stronger than the protagonists but the enemies happen to fight each other/step on a banana peel for some reason which weakens them enough to get beaten
>a group of enemies and protaganoists fight each other, but they are matched up in a way that protagonists counter them despite being weaker overall
Plot induced stupidity is when a character forgets something for the plot
>Doesn't use the move that defeats his opponent on purpose because the opponent is neccessary for the story
>Doesn't reveal his true strenght at start and dicks around for no reason "haha, I was actually much stronger than that"

>Aren't those pretty much the same thing?
Pretty much

>>158389126
>Raising questions that can not and are not answered, leaving major conclusions to the reader
That's often good writing. In many cases, the answers are worse than what the reader will think off. Not everything needs an answer.

>>158388619
actually it would be argumentum ad populum if not statistical analysis, brainlet.

>>158388637
nothing, we're just measuring distance from "textbook contrarianism", of which there is no example more reinforced by actual data.

>>158389125
>>>/wsr/

>>158389319
You're trying way too hard.

>>158389300
how do you determine when something is realistic from a plot perspective or not?

Bad writing ignores causality.

>>158389380
I like it-100% realistic behavior
I dislike it-Why don't they act like human beings!

>>158389353
"trying" is bad only when it doesn't work for you, mucus-lathered troglodytian insect.

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>>158387322
Writing that fails to be enjoyable or entertaining + the content isn't valuable or thought provoking.

Terribly bland scientific essay = still good writing, because the content is more important than style and the dry style is better for presenting facts
Stupidly crazy story like Code Geass = also good writing because it serves its purpose as entertainment

>>158387998
> "just because" plot devices, shoehorned justifications, weak/inconsistent characters, interactions to drive the plot instead of as a result of the plot
If possible, I would like some examples of these from Madoka.

>>158389220
Fiction doesn't have any merit, it is just a lesser form of writing. It is either used for entertainment(ecapism) or propaganda.

Entertainment is largly subjective, therefore there is no objective standart for art.

>>158389482
maybe we could avoid some argument if we started calling it "effective writing"

>>158389521
>>158388189
protip: if it has time travel looping, there are plot holes, no exception. literally harry potter time turner-tier.

>>158389537
>Fiction doesn't have any merit, it is just a lesser form of writing. It is either used for entertainment(ecapism) or propaganda.
What is this cancer? people can't be this retarded right?

>>158389564
is literally anything that has time travel looping bad writing then?

>>158389125
Pokemon Season 1, Sailor Moon, .hack//sign, Code Lyoko, and Dragon Ball. The true patrician's stable.

>>158389564
>if it has time travel, there are plot holes, no exception
FTFY

>>158389216
It comes down to justification.
If it's justified before (or sensibly after) the fact, in a fashion congruent with the tone of the rest of the writing, then you're golden. If you cannot justify it though it falls into the purview of bad writing.

Here's an example: Alice from Re:Creators in the second-to-last episode blindly trusting the evil Ninja chick despite having taken a disliking to, and even having battled her beforehand. Her becoming deaf to reason in the most recent episode makes sense, as she has been characterised as very very unintelligent, but the aforementioned makes no logical sense even for a petulant moron.

>>158389578
>Plato
>retarded

>>158389578
anon, I'm sorry to say, but you've been had

Anime writing makes Game of thrones look like a masterpiece.

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>>158389597
>Code Lyoko
>anime

>>158389594
lazy at best. the only way to write something like that and have it be good is to move the goalposts, i.e., a parody where the primary point of the writing is to make someone laugh. bill and ted for example. not sure about time travel parodies in anime, though.

fucking Ash uses the wrong pokemon every fucking time

>>158389616
>Here's an example: Alice from Re:Creators in the second-to-last episode blindly trusting the evil Ninja chick despite having taken a disliking to, and even having battled her beforehand. Her becoming deaf to reason in the most recent episode makes sense, as she has been characterised as very very unintelligent, but the aforementioned makes no logical sense even for a petulant moron.
Nice try Alice haters, but Re:Creators is terribly written because it takes itself too seriously while presenting a story full of bad logic. It spends a lot of time on exposition and treats itself as a serious exploration on the subject "What if anime characters became real?" but it ends up using the same pandering tropes like the yuribait pocky kiss or souta's entire existence.

For a book, it's about having a shitty prose, things like coherence, themes, setting and characters etc also matter but not that much.

>>158387840
>>158387998
>>158388196
>>158389094
These are acceptable answers

Mine
>Not fully realized/built up plotpoints and foreshadows
>Plotholes and paper thin justification
>character/personality is being leisurely retconned/acting outside their traits
>pacing issue(90% introduction/exposition+10% plot or any which variety of dumbass composition)
>Inconsistent theme and tone
>Mr. Jargon Infodumpers is narrating the story instead of just showing it to us
>Character has no motivation, story is driven by McGuffins instead.

>>158389724
makes me sad that everybody's watching this filth but nobody's watching twin angel this season.

>>158389777
don't worry, I'm watching neither

>>158389724
The whole anime is just a meta joke. I'm not saying that as an insult, it ironically "takes itself seriousl." Last episode, one the characters blatantly broke the fourth wall and spoke to the audience.

>>158389564
>>158389614
>I don't get time travel therefore it is a plot hole
ftfy

>>158389815
this is blind excuses.

>>158389844
this could ironically only be said by someone that doesn't understand the implications of time travel.

>>158389616
I haven't been watching Re:Creators, but if alice is characterized as unintelligent couldn't that also be justification for trusting evil ninja chick? like I'd believe that a stupid person would trust someone they didn't like and had already fought before

>>158389847
No, and that's not even the only sign.

>>158389618
like other people and famous philosopher have never criticized him and society hasn't moved on from his theories.
In the context of modern medicine we can all see how Humorism is stupid but Hippocrates or whoever the fuck came up with it was probably a smart person. Nobody is doubting that, but humanity's base knowledge has increased and we can separate an authour and hsi theories' value judgements

>>158387322
every post in this thread

>>158389903
technically we haven't moved on from his idea of forms because we can't because it's observation and not hypothesis.

>>158387840
Did you just say gum?

>>158389380
>>158389216
You are trying to say: everything is relative. If everything would be relative then the physical world would be chaos, but there are rules for it. And the "physical" rules for the writing world are how the person's mind work and the moral values.

>>158389094
>or where the viewer is provided a non-diegetic understanding of the narrative to justify the direction of the plot
Reminds me of the new Star Trek movie.
They had Nimoy reprise his role as Spock to come in as a character from a parallel universe to explain to the audience why Khan was bad because they'd forgotten to show him being evil at any point. The whole plot hinged on this weird meta-understanding of his character.

>>158389380
>>158389216
if something is written well, you wouldn't ask such questions related to it.

>>158389953
Plato or Humorism? I think we have moved on from the first, unless you think the Hyperuranion actually exists and the latter is objectively not how the human body works

>>158387386
Came here to post this.

>>158390004
>walk into living room when visiting family as they're watching the new wrath of khan
>see benadict cumberbottom dual-wielding light machineguns in a CG-scape
>walk out of the room

You're all fags for trying to justify or criticize enjoying things.

>>158389857
name one thing inherently wrong with time loops

>>158389977
I'm not necessarily trying to say that, I just dont' want to let people get away with loose definitions

>>158390039
"hyperuranion" is an abstract representation of an ideal for the purpose of thinking about a system that we cannot communicate with each other without utilizing.

Is Re:Zero well written?

>>158390078
paradoxes. paradoxes everywhere.

>>158390132
it's a writing trainwreck. more than anything else I can think of that's popular.

>>158390006
those questions weren't related to a specific thing, but if they were. does that mean that if anyone questions a characters motivation or the realism of the plot then it's already bad writing no matter the answer?

>>158390132
No, the MCs love for emilia is nothing short of unrealistic and contrived.

>>158390078
it ruined Charlotte for one

>>158390132
Did you enjoy it?
No other measure matters in an entertainment medium.

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>>158390114
Plato thought it was a fucking place

>>158390163
I disagree, there were much worse things in Charlotte than the time loops

>>158389903
Plato did have errors in his thinking, but his disdain for literature and art is still correct to this day.
The errors he commited were caused by a lack of scientific knowledge.

>>158390148
if the writer failed to maintain your suspension of disbelief, the writing failed you.

it's hard to make any kind of ad populum argument though because it looks like most people don't have a disbelief problem with re:zero.

>>158390162
Id say more "Rem's love for MC is nothing short of unrealistic and contrived."

>>158390191
Do you also think field always means a grassy terrain?

>>158390191
it would be semantics to argue that plato thought of it as an existing physical realm and not a concept which even your screencap identifies it as.

>>158390211
if plato was so smart then why is he dead

>>158388237
They're unrealistic and badly written because the author treats their development and a characterization as if they were men.

Women are bitches and whores without need of a tragic past.

>>158390184
You can enjoy a show and acknowledge that it's bad.

>>158390211
So we agree that he isn't always right, then why do you agree with him on fiction?
>Fiction doesn't have any merit, it is just a lesser form of writing. It is either used for entertainment(ecapism) or propaganda.
For example, how does the dystopian genre qualify as escapism or propaganda? You're also conflating entertaining and escapism, which obviously are not the same

>>158387998
Pretentious asshole
>>158387840
Actually intelligent

>>158390324
>unrealistic and badly written
compared to what other anime characters?

anno himself says he spent a long time reading romance novels written by women to try to understand the female mind more for the purpose of depicting it well in his characters. I personally think he did a good job.

>>158390349
anally-hemorrhaged microbe. I'm observing you under a microscope right now.

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>>158387322

>>158389878
Alice's character is motivated by honor and chivalry, this ninja had previously offended her, and despite openly being very vague and manipulative Alice just takes what she says at face value. And Alice does so after being initially very skeptical of the ninja -just a moment ago in the very same scene-.

That ninja is a whole nother can of worms though. Her power is a conceptual ability that turns lies spoken to her into the truth; eg. Saying "I'm not on fire right now" would make you spontaneously combust. Everyone saw how it works, she told everyone how it works, but everyone just keeps fucking falling for it. You beat her by keeping your mouth shut, and it's just unfathomably stupid that she's tricked people with it 3-4 times that know how it works.

>>158387322
Is this one of those threads where we pose a stupid and ridiculously vague question and then sneer at all repliers too dumb to recognize it for the shitpost bait it was?

Wow i didn't know anons were so smart.

>>158390326
That's merely falling into a trap.
The idea that you need to curb your enjoyment of something in favor of being critical of the object of your enjoyment is simply a tax on happiness that you have no reason to pay.

What are some meme criticisms that you can't quite understand?
For me, it's
> Characters with more than one fixed personality
therefore
> Inconsistent characters
The average person mixed these twos up badly. Though both can occur at the same time, it doesn't mean just because one is true the other is true as well.

>>158390234
what about someone who is a little stupid, they would probably question more (or less) motives than someone smarter. does that mean that how realistic the characters are is somewhat based on the viewers intelligence? keep in mind I'm not trying to make an "LOL UR JUST 2 DUM TO APPRECIATE IT" argument, just trying to see where the argument goes.

about Re:Zero, I almost never question characters actions because I usually see the characters as people and just include whatever new thing they do into my idea of "their character". but even I can tell that the author just really likes Rem and wants her to be everyone's best girl.

>>158390447
What if I enjoy bad shows?

>>158390448
>more than one fixed personality
>Inconsistent character
Sounds quite literally correct to me
examples?

>>158387840
>>158387877
>>158387998
>plotfags

>>158390246

Rem's love is not driving the plot forward though. Everything in Re:Zero happens because Toyota is obsessed with Emilia.

>>158390508
Shows meant for entertainment can only be bad if they do not entertain you.
Unless the show prioritizes something other than entertainment, it cannot be a bad show so long as it entertains you.

>>158390448
is "personality" really limited like that? why wouldn't we just call all of a characters "personalities" their one "personality"?

>>158390474
>the author just really likes Rem and wants her to be everyone's best girl
Dude what? He loves Emilia too.

>>158390447
what if you get more enjoyment out of enjoying a show, and then analyzing and criticizing it's (perceived or otherwise) "faults"?

>>158390194
as >>158390134 said, time travel plot usually creates a lot of paradoxes and Charlotte was one of the bad offender of it

>timeline A = Ayumi became pizza sauce, Yuu went edgelord and almost did drugs until Nao slapped him in the face with the help of that wet dude. Yuu also met that blind singer, helped Nao's brother, and accepting her sister's death while moving on with his life
>Timeline B = after Ayumi was saved from being turn into pizza sauce, the anime suddenly turn into LOGAN

these two timeline have no fucking correlation at all.
sure the time travel wasn't the worst thing that happened with Charlotte but it sure was the moment the anime took a nose dive

>>158390595
They're a work of art too.

>>158390342
>You're also conflating entertaining and escapism, which obviously are not the same
You are right in that regard , I meant that entertainment is often escapism( at least in fiction).

>For example, how does the dystopian genre qualify as escapism or propaganda?
It qualifies as propaganda.
It spreads ideas based on false information or gives only a part of an argument.
The author tries to push his ideas with fiction.
>So we agree that he isn't always right, then why do you agree with him on fiction?
Because I consider the goal of humanity to understand as much as possible of the world.
Literature doesn't help that goal.

>>158390587
I can see where that obsession comes from though. he is dropped into a strange new world and she is the first person to be nice to him (as well as being a cute girl he actually talks to and spends the day with)

>>158389482
I'd say this is more or less the case, although in the case of a scientific writing it has to be readable enough for the audience to get through the text. Similarly, people did like the craziness of Code Geass but that also needed some anchors of decently written stuff in the middle, in order to get as super big as it did.

>>158389878
The bad character is talking all the time, Alice can tell she is a manipulator, the only justification is that she had some magic lie detector that didn't go off, but in the grimdark setting that she comes from she ought to have met some manipulative noble who tried to trick her without lying

>>158390682
>The author tries to push his ideas with fiction.
wrong as fuck.
this is only true when the author's portrayal of the events is heavily biased towards one side of the argument, ie: holohoax histories written by jews.

>>158390604
the author, not the MC. emilia is a complete bitch to him (relatively) during some of his darkest times and Rem is there helping him all along the way and even gives the nice speech that gives his confidence back. Rem doesn't even accept his proposition to run away together because she wants what's best for the MC not her.

>>158390734
>magic lie detector
When the fuck was this established?

>>158390655
I agree that's around the time that things turned retarded, but I would say that is because that's also around the time they switched perspectives back from his brother. it would have been a much better show if his brother had been the MC

>>158390626
That's essentially like confession for Catholics. You believe that post enjoyment criticism frees you from the guilt that you have collected from enjoying the show. The enjoyment you get from your "confession" matches the enjoyment that was sapped from you by the guilt.

>>158390682
>Because I consider the goal of humanity to understand as much as possible of the world.

what if literature gets more people interested in learning more about the world, doens't that help that goal?

>>158390392
You forgot:
"trainwreck" -> "How dare they make the events take a turn I didn't expect?"

>>158390682
>It spreads ideas based on false information or gives only a part of an argument.
The author tries to push his ideas with fiction.
If propaganda is a piece of writing that pushes the author's ideas wouldn't every non-objective piece of writing ever be propaganda? That would include not only fiction but also philosophy, hypothetical science and shit like that. Doesn't that sound extreme?
>Because I consider the goal of humanity to understand as much as possible of the world.
Literature doesn't help that goal.
What about pieces like 1984 that contributed to making a shitton of people aware of the potential dangers of totalitarian goverment.

That said i agree that entertainment is subjective and often escapism

>>158390830
I saw it pop up a few times in older threads, it would fit in, although still poorly written garbage

>>158390908
maybe? that's one explanation, but I don't usually feel any "guilt" over shows I watch. but I do gain enjoyment out of trying to find out why certain things are more or less effective in anime storytelling.

Bad writing doesn't necessarily mean boring writing. What's far worse than bad writing is writing that merely reaches competence. Characters and world largely consistent, plot makes sense (if there is one), very few wonky lines, yet utterly passionless and uninspired. Right now I'm thinking of Fune wo Amu, most harem shows, the works of Tomihiko Morimi, etc. "So bad it's good" shows like Another and Macross have more value than dreadful mediocrity.

>>158391027
>Characters and world largely consistent, plot makes sense (if there is one), very few wonky lines, yet utterly passionless and uninspired.
sounds like iyashikei to a T

>>158391007
Guilt is a catch-all term. As an example, if your enjoyment of a show is stymied by a need to pick out tropes, that is also a form of guilt.

I never understand what people mean when they say "uninspired"

>>158391106
There are several online dictionaries, you know?

What bad writing is:
>When your character is overwhelmingly powerful because the plot dictates that he shouldn't be able to lose
What bad writing is not:
>When your character needs to earn his power through training
>When your character is unbeatable on every level for comedic or satirical purposes

>>158390596
you are correct, I misspoke, the more appropriate thing to say is 'tendency to think/act in more than one way'. May be you can think of a better word.
>>158390515
I have really bad memories, but out of the recent ones I have watched, Utena have characters acting very differently between the beginning and the end. Utena specifically changes from wanting to be a prince to wanting the price to be inside her, despite not giving a shit about any of the guys before Akio. Someone would criticize it as being inconsistent, ignoring the series of events and back stories that led to this change. Not denying that said criticism can be valid, I just think it is rare.

Plot holes that are either poorly or never explained

Having to use a deus ex machina to resolve a problem

Using misunderstandings or having characters not talk to one another for the sake of building conflict

Characters that act in one particular way suddenly act out of character without any foreshadowing or build up just for the sake of moving the story

Those kind of examples

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>>158387322
There's a lot of ways writing becomes bad.
One very common bad writing example in anime is when things are directly explained to the viewer instead of explained naturally. Basically the first thing you learn in writing is show don't tell. So when someone has to explain how an attack works or why a certain action was necessary and it's very obvious he's talking to the audience instead of amongst themselves, that's bad writing.

Another example of bad writing is over reliance on cliches. If you're watching a character behave in the same way you have seen a hundred times before or have a similar background you watched 10 times in the last week, then you're watching something too cliche heavy.

If you've read this and thought to yourself, "but all anime is like that", then you've figured out all anime has bad writing. There are a handful of exceptions and chances are you haven't watched any of them.

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>>158387322
Prime example.

>>158391267
>One very common bad writing example in anime is when things are directly explained to the viewer instead of explained naturally. Basically the first thing you learn in writing is show don't tell. So when someone has to explain how an attack works or why a certain action was necessary and it's very obvious he's talking to the audience instead of amongst themselves, that's bad writing.
This applies to comedy as well. I will never accept the manzai excuse; manzai's very core is rotten, thus any comedy that takes after it is rotten as well.

>>158391267
Replace "anime" with "fiction" and you might have a point.

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>>158389878
>mfw someone who never watched Re:Creators understand a character better than than all the shitposters who watched it.
You're partially right; she is basically mind-broken by the horrors she has been seeing in her homeworld end the fact that she always failed to protect the ones she wanted to; therefore, she blindly trusts anyone who could give her a tiny glimpse of hope or purpose.
All the shitposting about how stupid she is as if this was a fault of the show) is just another case of the "incoherent Suzaku" meme from the times of Code Geass: shitposters trying hard to sound "smart" while completely failing to understand the characters' psychology.

>>158388937
Samumenco is good writing in my opinion. It entertains like no other series. Enemies are steadily growing in strength, it starts with umbrella, some thugs, evil guy, then evil organisation, then the country, the aliens, the god and lastly the main characters themselves. It's a consistent progression. You can't say it's a bad writing just because it doesn't have any foreshadowing or plot points aren't what you think they should be.

>>158390998
>If propaganda is a piece of writing that pushes the author's ideas wouldn't every non-objective piece of writing ever be propaganda?
Yes, this is correct, but propaganda is necessary in the world.
It drives developpment in science (hypothetical science ).
So you can say that anything non objective is theoretically propaganda or at least unintentional propaganda.


>Doesn't that sound extreme?
This is a exteme position I take , but then again I consider propaganda a necessity.
The danger is when people base their decisions entirely around it, without considering the facts.

This happens often in technology. For example AI, wherein the wider public sees some evil computer that takes over the world.

>>158391361
but the japanese love it, are they rotten as well? assuming the answer is yes (and I don't disagree). is it really better to just say that an entire nation has shit taste than to say manzai is just a "different form" of comedy?

>>158391267
>Bleach
>characters explain how their powers work and sometimes even their weaknesses

It would make more sense and be more interesting if we saw some inner monologue trying to analyze powers.

>>158387803
And yet it's still alive and well.

>>158391571
maybe like in bnha when deku goes autistic and starts muttering about the people fighting

>>158391584
>elevens have shit taste

You don't say.

>>158391224
> misunderstanding, not communicating clearly
Guilty crown ep 9, as soon as it is revealed that the friend's little bro character is going to die, I immediately think of what is going to come and closed it. Just to confirm, the MC's friend become a villain because of this event right?

>>158391461
Not just her homeworld. It's that all the horrors that she experienced turned out to be a bad joke for people to get off to.

Not sure about trusting ninja chick though. Didn't Alice pretty much say that she doesn't know the truth from the lie anymore. Sounds more like it doesnt even matter whether magane is a bullshit liar in her view because everything else might as well be too.

After this episode, she started to shift from reckless autism to partial insanity

>>158391520
This. Samflam is homage and comedy, GG was a fantastic turn.

I hope you all realize that this thread has devolved into mental gymnastics to justify "what I like is good writing and what I don't like is bad writing."

>>158391571

Reason we needed more Starks and less Shinjis'.

>>158391728
>devolved
that's what it was at the start, there is actual discussion going on now

>>158391728
>devolved
It's been like that from the very start of the thread.

Writing is bad when it fails to convey the experience it intends to convey. A lot of examples of bad writing, in the end, are considered bad writing because they fail to entertain the viewer.

>>158388196
>A story that requires you've read the entire works of Jung to even begin to enjoy is probably bad writing
I think you're taking it too far with this.
Everything else is on point.

>>158391567
> is it really better to just say that an entire nation has shit taste than to say manzai is just a "different form" of comedy?
Yes. We do it for other countries including our own (such as the success of Bayformers and MCU in the West, or the popularity of Corona in Mexico), why not for Japan?

>>158391760
No it still is.

Takes place in a Japanese high school, and the main character is slowly introduced to a fantasy world he was unaware of before.

>>158387998
steins;gate was shit but code geass was great.

>>158391740
>can cut main antagonists head with one blow
>toys around and explains his power
>antagonist gets used to it
>reveals another level and proceeds to toy around again and explain it again
>antagonist gets used to it and btfos him

Even if Shinji couldn't kill Aizen because lolmagiccube, that has to be the single most retarded moment in the series.

>>158391782
this guy gets it

>>158387322
If you can't justify the actions characters did with something other than "because story" or "because plot" its bad writing

>>158391800
fair enough, although the other solution is to say that those other things are also subjective and better/worse depending on the audience

>>158391267
>the first thing you learn in writing is show don't tell.
It's a right thing to follow, but some people just go full autist on this.

Bad writing is when you can't immerse into what you are seeing/reading because what the author wrote does not make sense. In some ways every part of a story should fit organically.

>>158391782
Well said.

>>158387386
Basically this. Literary critic is all subjective by design.

Most people will be put off by predictable plots and bland characters, but even that isn't a safe bet. And both are (again) subjective in nature.

>>158387322
If you are watching anime for something more than cute girls and cool fights you are already factually wrong in everything you said.

There is no bad writing, only bad readers.

>>158392113
That is exactly the thought process that makes post modern art disgusting

>>158392113
You are literally retarded, anon.

>>158392113
/thread

>>158391782
So you are basically saying people dislike harems so much because broken expectations, i.e picking the wrong girl to cherish.

>>158392366
not him, but I think it's that, plus expecting interesting MC, or plot developments. which also explains how so many people can enjoy harems because they aren't expecting those kinds of things

>>158392108
>not watching anime for cute boys
Wew

>>158392108
>Watching anime for cool fights
What are you, a homo ?

>>158392366
I think most people hate harems because 90% of times they have no real conclusion at the end because the writers are hacks who only know how write fanservice, cliff hangers and indecisive oblivious main characters.

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Can writing still be considered bad if the characters in the work often act in an inconsistent and erratic manner, but do so because of explicit, plot-related reasons? Pic related. I love Tomino's world building and multi-faction conflicts, but his characters sometimes behave like skinwalkers trying to pass for real human beings. Not to mention his pendant for relying heavily on body language in a medium that is just barely prepared for it

>>158392366
Yes. Ultimately, most of them are boring and uneventful.

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>>158392210
>>158392238
Well then, answer this question.

If people don't get a joke, is it the fault of the comedian or the audience?

Would the jokes that we write on /a/ be funny on a public forum?
Even the jokes about loli rape?
Is pic related a bad joke just because your grandmother wouldn't understand it?

Entertainment is a relationship between the audience and the material, and it's better for everyone if the bad audience is changed instead of the writing.

It's like people calling bakemonogatari pretentious, when it's the most direct and expository anime of them all. If they don't have the attention span to understand such a simple show, the show shouldn't be called bad and rewritten to fit their taste.

It's more obvious in games. You know that kid, the one who would slap your controller away when he was losing. The one who skipped the cutscenes and then asked what the fuck is happening. Then he complained that the game was bad.

Stop being a bad audience apologist.

>>158392529
>If people don't get a joke, is it the fault of the comedian or the audience?
That is not a true analogy.

If you tried to tell a joke but failed, you can't pass it up like "You don't get it." Every artist has an audience he's playing for, which they should otherwise the work he's doing has no point to begin with, but playing for an audience shouldn't distract you from failing the pillars of an interesting story. I might absolutely hate the MC, or I might find the "joke" offensive, but if its a good joke, I would have to accept it.

The artist shouldn't get a free get away card by doing "You don't understand me." that's what makes art today absolutely disconnected from public and seemingly pretentious.

>>158392529
>>158392677
The real problem is that people consume too much medium nowadays.

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>>158392677
>but if its a good joke, I would have to accept it
That's the thing. Thinking like that puts you in the 0.0001% of the population. Most people would not laugh at a racist or misogynistic joke no matter how funny it is.

>The artist shouldn't get a free get away card by doing "You don't understand me." that's what makes art today absolutely disconnected from public and seemingly pretentious.
On the opposite, art is so disconnected because writers focus too hard on being accepted by the audience. Like Hollywood movies written at such a level that people in China can understand it. So that all the audiences from all age ranges accept it ,to maximize profits.

If I write a lolicon manga, I expect the audience to be lolicons. If non-loli people don't get it, they are absolutely of no concern to me. Their opinion is worthless. They shouldn't read my loli book.

>>158392883
>If I write a lolicon manga, I expect the audience to be lolicons. If non-loli people don't get it, they are absolutely of no concern to me. Their opinion is worthless. They shouldn't read my loli book.

That isn't an issue with a bad audience though, is it ? If your write a lolicon manga and majority of your audience turned out to be people who don't like lolis implies something went wrong. Audience that was not meant to be there to begin with becoming a majority that you have to hear them out implies something entirely else, doesn't it ?

>Most people would not laugh at a racist or misogynistic joke no matter how funny it is.

Even if it was in a medium that was meant to be racist ? That shouldn't happen, because like I said before that implies they really shouldn't be there to begin with. I think the way to escape bad writing is cohering, no matter how things go, when you look from the perspective the artist sets up, it should make sense. You shouldn't avoid that by saying "You just don't get it", that's what bad writing is.

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>>158387322
It's how I call something shit in a more formal post while specifying that the story is shit.

>>158393308
Man SZS was good

>>158388245
Congratulations anon, you now see the world as we do.

>>158392883
What if I'm a lolicon and I don't find your manga to be good?

>>158393370
You're not a true lolicon.

>>158389857
Multiverse theory doesn't allow plot holes though.
It's just that there's kind of no point to timetraveling if you're going to use Multiverse theory anyway.

>>158393370
There are dozens of different lolicons. Vanillafags, abusefags, incest fags, gurofags, yurifags, self inserting, etc. And among them thousands of combinations between tastes. Of course not everyone will like the same. So if you don't like it don't read it.

>>158393370
>What if I'm a lolicon
Then you go to jail, you punk

>>158393480
Let's say that you wrote a manga for lolicons with abuse, guro, yuri and self inserting and I like abuse, guro, yuri and self inserting. But I still don't like your manga for x reasons. Maybe you are just bad at writing loli manga.

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>>158390162
>No, the MCs love for emilia is nothing short of unrealistic and contrived.
I seriously can't be the only one who thinks the Witch had a hand in making the MC fall in love with her, can I?

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It's badwriting or a trainwreck the moment such an opinion becomes popular enough to gain an echo.
And most of the time, if you ask them to explain why, you will get a half-assed answer that can easily be refuted.

It hardly ever matters.

>>158387998
>>158391828
Steins;Gate was great, but Steins;Gate 0 was shit.

>>158393735
Well, are those X reasons part of your personality? Your tastes?

If is the fault of the author that you have them?

>>158393735
>h-manga
>writing

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>>158392113
It's unironically this 80% of the time.
People just want to be spoonfed on everything.

>>158393991
It's just an example
>>158393944
No. Those x reasons are only on the way your manga is written.

>>158394160
You're bad at giving examples. You can't prove any point by using a bad example.

>>158394060
>anime and manga
>as complex as mystery novels

>>158394160
>No. Those x reasons are only on the way your manga is written.
There are people who prefer to get lost in text, people who prefer everything being spelled out, people who prefer tell don't show and viceversa.

If you don't like the writing style of a writer, is it their fault?

I don't like poetry but I don't call poetry bad.

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>>158394239
>mystery novels
>complex
You mean those bunch of books with throwaway characters that exist solely for the sake of making a puzzle for you to solve?

>>158394320
Yes.

>>158394219
You're right on this one. This would be better using other examples, i don't know, mecha or fantasy.
>>158394319
Come on now, you're just evading any kind of criticism that can be made.

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>>158394482
Then I guess it's about time you get out of /a/ and go watch more anime.

>>158392026
>muh subjectivism
Fuck off.

>>158394608
Can you prove him wrong?

>>158394498
>Come on now, you're just evading any kind of criticism that can be made.
I think we should start criticizing the public instead. We should shame those who pull out their iphones while watching a movie. Those who watch anime at 2.0X speed on VLC. Those who read but never meditate on what they just read. What does it means?.

We wouldn't have discussions on whether X anime is shit or not. We would actually discuss what happens in the anime and why.

>>158394597
Are you implying anime are more complex than mysteries?

>>158394608
I said how it is not, that it should be that way.

>>158394653
Anime is not a monolithic medium, and neither are mystery novels.

>>158387900
>literary criticism is about X, not about Y, or X
Did you even read what you wrote before you posted it?

>>158394650
>I think we should start criticizing the public instead. We should shame those who pull out their iphones while watching a movie. Those who watch anime at 2.0X speed on VLC. Those who read but never meditate on what they just read. What does it means?.
Agree on this one. But it implies that everyone that actually thinks about what he's watching is going to like it and that's simply false.

>>158394060
>>158394320
Hachijo was such a trash self-insert. Ryukishi is a hack
>inb4 t-the heart

Just chiming in late, but I will never understand the complaint about "info dumping and/or telling exposition either about the plot, setting, or characters is a terrible bad sin that should never happen and is """""bad writing"""". So many people in this thread mention it I can't even quote them.

Every piece of fiction EVER written by Humans does this, and often does it a lot. Forget anime, let's take an easy, arbitrary example: Shakespeare's works are fucking FULL of people just standing around going "Oh, by the way MainCharacterolio, this is where we live, and the political situation, and the silly silly mess of errors you find yourself in, but you knew that already, right?"

Or just flat out having people break the fourth wall and TELL the audience what's happening.

Everyone from Tolstoy to Tolkien, Melville to Chaucer, Faulkner to Hemmingway, Voltair to Prose fucking does this. It's a NATURAL element of storytelling. I don't know how the fuck else you're supposed to convey information about a fictional world, even if it resembles our own, to the audience. What is even the alternative?

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>>158394640
If everything is subjective then value judgements either have no meaning, or they do and are necessarily wrong. I accept this. What I don't accept is disregarding standards for judging any art form that humans have derived and generally agree upon. This sort of pseudo objective standard is what I'm referring to. It is by this standard that we can disregard shit on a canvas as art, despite it not being objectively bad, only pseudo objectively.

Objective goodness doesn't exist, I accept that. Pseudo objective goodness, by our human derived standard, does. Literary criticism only exists with regard to these socially constructed standards. Therefore literary criticism isn't subjective.

A serious story which was unintentionally poorly written is bad, no matter how much someone enjoys it. There are different standards for different genres, obviously. This why a non-serious unintentionally poorly written story can be good, since it is in a different genre whose standards are different.

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>>158394640
>>158394705
Ultimately what I mean is that beauty doesn't exist, but we have a standard for beauty anyway. You cannot disregard this standard.

O

>>158391782
Correct.

>>158395802
MY

>>158392524
What? If anything, it's Tomino's world-building that's shit. He simply does not do exposition well, and sometimes completely ignores it. Reconguista is the biggest example. 20 episodes in, I was still having trouble keeping the different factions and their objectives straight.

>>158395452
I think the debate is more about how do you expose the plot/setting/characters rather than the act in itself.

For example, I just finished Another and didn't really like how some of the plot's most important elements were told by the off-screen voices of two unknown students at the beginning of the first episodes.

Yes, everyone does this but sometimes they're doing it really fucking badly.

>>158392113
whoa

>>158387322
evangelion , show went from mechashit to aliens

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>>158387322

Generally when the writer either takes shortcuts or doesn't put any thought into what they're doing.

>>158397578
>20 episodes in, I was still having trouble keeping the different factions and their objectives straight.
Then you are a fucking idiot. G-Reco really showcased how the average person who indulges in anime are fucking stupid.

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>>158391520
>>158391704

>/a/ actually discusses somthing
Surprise of the month desu

>>158387386
bad argument

>>158388834
I need more letters

>>158389564
The most retarded thing I've ever read here.

>>158404700
You haven't been here that long

>>158395452
Can't agree more. Obviously you can overdo it, but people tend to get retarded with this argument.

>>158387322
End of the Re:Zero adaptation

>>158395063
>Hachijo
>self-insert
Here we go again.

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The only thing I have learned from this thread is that bad writing = things I don't like and good writing = things I like.

>>158394650
>Those who read but never meditate on what they just read.
This. I just don't get it how can people skip over the pages of text without ever thinking about them and call that "reading".

>>158387322
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oetHwdfSc0M

>>158395452
It's not about doing it, it's about how it is done.

There's a difference between saying "2+2 is 4" and "This is how you do addition, here's 2+2, how much it is?". It's on the same basis as show don't tell.

>>158405200
You have absolutely zero comprehension if that's all you've gotten from this thread. I'm very sorry for you.

>>158390134
paradoxes are impossible because only the now exists

>>158387840
>exposition being used to introduce things
This isn't inherently bad. You're correct about the rest though.

>>158405123
Author insert.

>m-my books are too smart for you plebs

>>158392883
>Most people would not laugh at a racist or misogynistic joke no matter how funny it is.
Most people do laugh at the jokes, hell the targets of the jokes are often the ones telling them

>>158387840
what is PIS?

>>158406910
Plot Induced Stupidity
>>158406853
True.

>>158407902
thanks m8

>>158406818
>s-she's a writer so she must be an insert! h-he called us goats!
Who are you quoting?

>>158408898
>Who are you quoting?
See >>158394060
Also Featherine is literally the author's self-insert. That's her role in the story. That's not necessarily bad, but in this case it is.

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>>158388245
Not every anime.

>>158409726
Actual AOTS, too bad only 5 anons are watching it.

>to the topic about bad writing

In russian there is a saying about piano in bushes. You use it when something happens out of nothing which shouldn't be there by any means. This is the main point about bad writings, people start giving options out of nothing while breaking the rules. Let's say hero goes in dungeon to kill some monsters and *SUDDENLY* finds epic sword of 1000 truths which allows him to kill the super dragon boss which *SUDDENLY* appears out of nothing too. The story should be written logically, obeying the laws of the world, and even if something like this appears it should be properly explained why this kind of thing happen, but most of the time in "bad written stories" you will step on those "pianos in bushes" whole time where instead of trying to explain the first one - the author creates more and more of this story - breaking bullshit things which ruin it completely.

>>158387840
I accept this but I don't feel like it's enough to justify people throwing around the phrases "good writing" or "bad writing" without explaining themselves because how applicable these elements are to something or how much each thing could matter to the individual is important and people don't seem to realize that. For example, I think exposition can be a fine way to introduce things and even when it's not it doesn't bother me to the same degree that PIS does. I also don't see plot holes as something that can usually harm a show because I don't care as much about plots as I do about character interaction, growth, and consistency as well as pacing and atmosphere. There are always exceptions to all of these things for me, though. These values aren't shared by most people, however so I'd rather just explain why I dislike whatever writing issue than just saying that it is "bad writing" and leaving it at that.

>>158389094
In the case of Mayoiga, since its a comedy, its characters acting bizarrely is part of its humor. They're supposed to be a bunch of ccrazy people and their actions do follow a strange kind of consistency for the most part, even if it's out-landish.

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>>158387322

>>158412376
Is this actually the best game of all time like people say? I really doubt it can beat Shadow of the Colossus.

>>158412638
The only people who say that are people who think that so to them, it does.

>>158408967
Okay, we just disagree. Let's leave it at that.

>>158389094
>3. Any show with talking heads and exposition dumps. See: Re:Creators. Meteora's monologues are borderline offensive to the viewer's intelligence.
I see it as a part of Meteora's character and have no problems with it.

>>158413657
I could write a character into my story whose personality demanded he interrupt every dramatic moment with a fart joke, and I suppose I'd be able to justify it with the same response of "It's in his character". But it would still be a bad decision on my part as the writer because it would degrade my storytelling. Just because there's an in-universe explanation for something doesn't excuse it if it interferes with the story.

>>158388237
Eva's female characters are nothing compared to Utena's.

>>158387322
I've had a number of in depth conversations with a friend of mine regarding Code Geass.
Frequently within the series characters give wrongful descriptions of other characters, misattribute motive, and otherwise prevent speculation as fact. My friend therefore hates the series.
I ignore all opinions regarding characters in favour of forming my own. So I have no quarrel with Geass on this front. He considers it being unintentionally mislead and presented with contradictory conclusions ("asspulls").

So it depends on your assumptions. If you trust the information you are presented with then you get a kind of reverse foreshadowing effect. If you don't trust the information being presented then you may make predictions you were not supposed to (mystery, intentionally unreliable narrators, etc) which is quite frankly boring when it occurs. If I could predict the series then I could not watch the series and get just as much out of it.

>>158388583
All of Shakespeare's work is bad and cliche'.
There are an uncountable number of similar stories that either present something new or present the same story better.
Good at the time does not mean good now. It's why the classics only have value if you read them first.
But go on, tell people to watch Evangelion after having seen Eureka 7 or Xam'd. Or whatever series better present the aspects of Evangelion that you liked.

>>158388937
The best way to test if it breaks suspension of belief is to intentionally break your suspension of belief?
Yea, stop watching series with /a/.

>>158415076
Don't be retarded. Even a story with magic and monsters has a logical flow from earlier established rules. If it blatantly breaks established rules, it'll break suspension of disbelief. That's bad writing.

>>158389094
>3. Any show with talking heads and exposition dumps. See: Re:Creators. Meteora's monologues are borderline offensive to the viewer's intelligence.
A friend of min gave me a good example of this when to my dismay he dropped Spice and Wolf 5 mins in. Spice and Wolf opens with an explanation of trading presupposing an understanding of currency.

>>158387386
Weak people cling to this because they can't handle the truth.

>>158415514
If anything, it's the people who feel the need to try to find a factual basis in order to justify their opinions on entertainment and art that are weak.

>>158391654
MC's friend was shown to be a villain before that. The explanation came after the fact. He's a good guy again later (or at least he sides with the MC).

Not enough examples of writing have been provided in this thread

>>158405343
I loved this scene. All of Lulouche's careful planning ruined by a small fuck up and some really bad luck.
Supposing you believed he really supported Euphemia's plan. Which I do.

>>158415246
>If it blatantly breaks established rules, it'll break suspension of disbelief
Not the point I was making. I'm saying that if you didn't notice the breaking of rules then that should be the end of it. You're suggesting to intentionally break your suspension of belief so that you can analyse those events afterwards. Meaning you can't be convinced to overlook a lack of realism through emotional investment or other good writing techniques because you're going to reexamine the events unemotionally later. Or maybe someone who did not properly understand character motivations will present an inconsistency with reality even though the show did adequately suspend your belief, during a discussion on /a/.

>>158417323
>Supposing you believed he really supported Euphemia's plan
I don't care how you reason it. That specific choice of words in that specific scenario is utterly unbelievable. Lelouch knows perfectly well what his power does and how it works. This scene is undeniably bad writing, even if you think he supported Euphy's plan, purely because of that fact.

>>158387322
See "Lynn Okamoto"

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>>158387322
When it is obvious the writer gave no effort and never read/studied good literature. Neptunia is probably one of the best pieces of good effort in anime/anime games.

>>158418513
He said something contrary to his beliefs to prove a point? wow how out there.

>>158418683
>He said something contrary to his beliefs to prove a point? wow how out there.
I'm sorry? What point is he trying to prove? Remember, we're operating under the assumption that he wants Euphemia to succeed. If you consider the impact of what "saying something contrary to his beliefs" was, then what an undeniably stupid point it is he's trying to prove, whatever that may be. It's completely unbelievable.

>>158418836
>I'm sorry? What point is he trying to prove?
That his power can force someone to act against their desires regardless of the strength of those desires. So he uses the opposite of their mutual desires as an example.
It really was the best example for describing geass at the time.

>>158417540
>Meaning you can't be convinced to overlook a lack of realism through emotional investment or other good writing techniques because you're going to reexamine the events unemotionally later.

You seem to be missing the actual point. If your belief can be broken just because you decided to think about what was going on, then it's bad writing. If you can analyze the events afterwards and say, "Yes, this makes perfect sense in the context of the story based on what had been previously established" then it isn't bad writing.

>Oh, wow, that was so cool, the MC just punched out a diamond scaled dragon with his bare hands, what a badass. Oh hold on, didn't he break his leg like a few episodes ago because he tripped and fell? He didn't even receive any powerups or magical enhancements since then and not all that much time has passed, so how the hell did he just knock out a dragon and why isn't his arm broken?

It's bad writing.

you want an example? pick anything that came out this season.

>>158419225
So you're caught up on everything this season, even though you apparently dislike all of them? What a badass.

>>158418994
Do you seriously believe that that's an adequate explanation? Lelouch knows perfectly well what his Geass is capable of. He knows that Euphy would do exactly as he says. It does not seem realistic in the slightest for a character to jeopardise a situation with stakes that high simply to prove his powers are real. It's not as if Euphemia believing that the geass is capable of making her do something she would never do of her own volition is important to the story. He could have made her punch a wall or something and that would have been sufficient.

>>158410096
I'll hold onto those words, anon. This better be worth it.

>>158415617
t. Nietzsche

>>158389220
Ah yes. So me taking a shit on a canvas is good art because I said so. There definitely aren't objective standards that humans have derived and, within specific circles, adhere to. My 2 year old nephew is the best basketball player in the world. The convention of rating a player's skill through the evaluation of his performance with regard to NBA standards doesn't exist. Haha. It's aaaaalllĺll subjective, bro.

>>158419394
What's this "t." schwarbage you people keep posting?

>>158418670
Neptunia is just memes and really bad (read basic) gameplay

>>158419429
Just because standards exist, that doesn't mean they're fact. Which standards people use are up to them and that also goes for what degree they they agree with said standards. There are no factual rules that all humans go by that go against those examples, only consensus standards. Consensus=/=objective.

>>158419429
This post is enough of a reason autists need to find bad writers who makes loads of money off garbage and violently dismember them.

Elitism will only return when those who pander to the lowest common denominator die violent death

Why do you supposed intelligent/well-read individuals care enough about peoples' opinions on fiction/entertainment that you try to use fact to back up yours when there's no basis for doing so? There's no one way of looking at something, engaging with something, or enjoying something that is more correct than any others inherently and you'll never be able to prove otherwise or fully convince anyone else because there's no reason anyone should have to adhere to another's way of enjoying or appreciating something.

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>>158419500
Consensus = pseudo-objectivity
I accept subjectivism. But the consensus cannot be disregarded, because that would result in everything outside of math and logic being utterly meaningless and not even worth discussing. But it is worth discussing, and if you agree that shit on a canvas is by most standards bad art, then you adhere to the standard. It isn't objectively bad in general, however it is objectively bad with regard to some standard that a lot of people within a specific circle agree with. There also exist circles that do consider shit on a canvas good art, but i am not interested in their standard. This is why SoL anime can get away with writing that would be considered "bad writing" in other genres. Different standards.

Also enjoyment is entirely separate from the goodness of writing. Also read these:
>>158395508
>>158395680
And finally read a summary of Error Theory and maybe some philosphy on aesthetics.

>>158419193
Internal consistency only matters as long as the audience decides it values internal consistency, and this decision in turn has its roots in the zeitgeist. The same story would be interpreted completely differently in two different social scenarios with the whole past preceding the work and references the work brings with itself, which in turn refer to other references and so on. Read Pierre Mernard, Author of Don Quixote and The Death of the Author for elaboration, but what I'm saying is that the question itself of "what is good writing" is meaningless, or incomplete.

>>158387322
Writing isn't even that important for the vast majority of anime, it's all about the directing and storyboard.

>>158419616
Presumably they enjoy it. If there's no one way of engaging with something, then their way is just as correct as yours, and you've made a mistake by implying that they are wrong, by your own standards.

>>158419356
I think an example is far more likely than a demonstration, yes. Especially if the demonstration is likely to scare off his new ally.
Her understanding is important to their relationship, which you would expect to be important henceforth.

>>158419734
I generally agree with you, though I believe that some individuals, such as several of my friends, can get enjoyment from what they deem to be good writing, with one example being one friend who liked the ending of Yu Yu Hakusho despite thinking that most of it was stupid. He said he liked the final arc because Yusuke technically lost, which he thought was unique and since he values ideas he sees as unique, he gained more enjoyment of the show.

>>158419920
To make myself clear, I'm okay with them having whatever standards they want. I just dislike whenever they push said standards onto others and act like those people are wrong for not following their standards. If they enjoy being like that towards people, I can't stop them but I'm sure as hell going to complain if they're going to attack me or anyone else who aren't conforming to their standards.

>>158419957
>likely to scare off his new ally
I just gave an example. There are a multitude of much tamer things Lelouch could have done to Euphemia so she understood how his power works. Besides, like I said before, her completely understanding the full strength of his geass is not integral to the plot.

In any case, what I'm saying overall is that Lelouch using an example (asking her to kill everyone) which he would definitely understand to have severely damaging consequences to their relationship is very implausible.
The way you're arguing discounts the reality that Lelouch knows the conditions under which his power would activate. That's why it's bad writing.

>>158414364
I still don't understand people being mad about it. But oh well.

>>158412376
Are you implying that N:A is badly written?

When things don't make sense or happen in a way that is awkward/retarded. Unfortunately there are many "people" who are literally retarded and call anything they themselves personally cannot fathom to be bad writing. Code Geass is actually a good example, which is mind boggling considering how mainstream and made to appeal to a wide audience it is. Tards gonna tard I guess.

>>158387322
Read One piece, then you'll know.

>>158387322
Lelouch is so ugly.

>>158421992
this

>>158420581
The conditions of how his power activates changed. Sure, he might have expected the geass to go out of control, but he prepared for that using the Zero mask. Which he took off in an uncharacteristic act of kindness, which he learns not to repeat.
The events that occurred really aren't that far out there.

>>158420581
If he had lost control of his Geass prior to it happening, then you would be correct. The possibility of him losing control of eye had even been set up Though so you can't claim that it came out of nowhere.

>>158387322
Watch G-Reco, that's bad writing.

>>158422483
Fuck off, little faggot.

There's three vices in anime writing.
>1) Characterisation
Japs are meek by nature. Their main characters are meek by nature. Thus when it comes time to progress the plot the main character has to do something completely out of character, e.g. not be a faggot, and then they revert to being meek. This is the case for so many harem protagonists.
>2)Exposition
Japs are happy to sit and be told everything so their opinions don't stray out of line. This saturates every explanation and also kills audience speculation. Sometimes the writer HAS to expose something because they failed to give the right information that "this could happen" before it happened. Do you think there'd be more or less tension in bleach if power explanations came from figuring them out rather than their user smugly explaining them to the viewer-immediately? Do you think you could figure them out without that?
>3)Pacing
Japs are meek and meek is slow. It's very hard for them to do something quickly because they have terrible judgement of what to keep and what to retain. Take Re:Creators for example: Meteora's positive characterisation scenes were cut in favour of more exposition which resulted in the pace being slowed by her repeating the same hypothesis again and again.

Even if you're in a nonsensical setting, then a properly characterised protagonist whose methods of interacting with that setting are not rooted in the author's explanations of them but rather from gradual foreshadowed internally-consistent logical developments, it can make for a good story.

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Bad writing is a spook.

/a/ - Literature

Moving on, this thread is really going places and the arguments within are all very well delivered. Its been a while since Ive had fun reading through intellectual posts on /a/

>>158421992
One Piece has the best story telling out of any shonen series, it's incredibly well paced and varied throughout its run.

>>158422020
No u