The future of anime is here. Your thoughts?

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Needs more cute.

>>157576822
Take your shitty CGI back to america.

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I watch anime for the plot, so I don't care if it is 3D or not.

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>>157576822

>>157576822

I wish blame was 60fps and actually a two season long show.

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As long as the shows are good, sure.

>>157577525
While 3D was shitty, that movie itself wasn't too bad.
I liked all three protagonists.

>>157576822

dead-end money sink missing the entire point of hand animation. If you are going to go 3d, go all the way. Trying to get 3d to look like 2d interpretive minimalism is impossible. You will end up needing to do even more work. The whole 3dpseudo2d push is businesses looking for a way to cheaply mass-produce DVD bait. It misses a ton of key factors and will either evolve away from the minimalist styles (more like game cutscenes) or die on the vine.

>>157577944
But anime fans like flat faces with low detail, that will be very hard to take out of anime. I find he cost-cutting of such designs hard to believe anyway.

>>157577944
What's the difference between the Gantz and FF movies compared to Blame and Berserk other than the framerate?

>>157576822
i hope it gets better

>>157577815
more like "as long as the show isnt action"

Kado can get away with it. Blame cant

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>>157578158
You can still stylise 3D
Making it look like cell animation is retarded.

>>157576822
Its kinda sad FF movies made 15y ago and still today tv anime show cant match its quality
I mean PC graphics power advanced like 1000x over that time. It should be cheaper to produce high quality 3d waifus now

>>157578591
That looks like porn, it no doubt is a model from a custom porn maker or something, but still. It's not where I'd personally want 3DCG anime to go.

>>157578591
that actually looks like proper anime in 3d

>>157578822
The breasts could use some more work.

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>>157577944
when you go "all the way" with 3D, even when it looks good, it ends up being kind of soulless

ID-0, Ajin, BLAME!, Kado have all been great.
3DCG anime has actually turned into the best things airing.

>>157578897
Nobunaga Concerto was also very good, despite also being the director's first series and an advertisement for the dorama.

>>157578860
in 2d anime, you have faces doing all kind of wacky shit, that you cant really do in 3d anime yet or we havent really seen any of that

>>157578799
it's just a model by a 3d artist

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>>157578931
Nobunaga Concerto was fantastic in both direction and writing.

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>>157578852

>>157578931
>>157579065
Was NC CG or rotoscoped? A lot of the motion was too natural and smooth to be CG.

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>when literal puppets have more emotion and personality than your thousand-dollar CGI models

>>157579100
Undressing them does not change their size.

>>157578956
What is every western 3d animated movie? They make wacky faces every 2 seconds

>>157578897
blame sucks dick

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>>157579222
mooot

>>157578860
>>157578158

That's because it takes a lot more work to impart realistic emotion to an entirely modeled face than it does to just a set of eyes on a blank blob. Hand drawn anime conveys emotion about 80% through the eyes, we "fill in the blanks" of what is being conveyed because of the minimalist nature of the medium (2D).
With 3d, even if you reduce the facial expressions down to just the eyes+ a background skin tone blob, you lose a lot of the shot to shot or even keyframe to keyframe flexibility to convey implied emotion.
To give you another perspective, I compare hand-drawn anime facial expressions to gesture drawings. When you are formally taught to draw the first thing you take on is gesture drawing. Gesture drawing isn't first about quickly drawing something, although it's easy to think that because most art teachers are shit. Gesture drawing is about looking at a figure, finding an "emotion" or "movement" in that figure, then imparting a slightly exaggerated representation of that emotion and movement overlayed on that figure with as few lines as possible.
Anime 2d facial expressions and Anime in general are very closely tied to that train of thought - it's a minimalist medium. Finding a way to convey as much emotion and/or movement with as few lines or colors as possible. When you can distill a pose, movement, look into an undeniably clear specific message - you win.
3d animation and how 3d assets are created and rigged are so far away from any of these concepts, it's really hard to quantify to those who are on the outside of that world (3d modelling and animation).
Gesture and the iterative minimalism of 2d animation (not just Anime) is a completely different ideology when compared to 3d animation, it's really hard to convey. In 2d animation, from keyframe to keyframe you can do almost anything with just a different application of a pencil. have someone's eyeball explode into tiny little bugs or something. cont.

>>157579265
>>157578352
>>157578860
cont.
In 3d animation you'd need to have different rigs, different assets, a complex transition from the standard rig and 10's if not 100 man-hours just to achieve what a good key animator could achieve solo in a day's worth of work.

2d animation from anime isn't going to be replaced with "pseudo 3d". Look at Disney. They didn't adopt a pseudo 3d 2d facsimile to continue their animation brand, and look at all the resources and experience they have. If they couldn't do it what chances do you think some anime mill will have? The reason why Disney didn't develop a pseudo 2d pipeline is because it's stupid to, there were early attempts but 2d and 3d animation are two completely different schools of thought.

>>157579265
>>157579438

Cont3.

As a note, I work in 3d asset creation.

>>157576822
The future of anime is going to be terrible regardless of cgi

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>>157578956
It's rare but not completely unheard off.

>>157576822
lovely

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>>157576822

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>>157578956

>>157579065
>>157579107
I just finished this and can confirm. The CG was really well done, although there could have been more detail put into facial expressions imo.

>>157576822
I've never watched a full 3DCG anime and never will.
I'll literally stop watching anime altogether before watching one.

>>157578591
False. It's fine if you make it look like cell animation. Anime studios just aren't putting in the slightest amount of effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6knZv31PM1E

>>157576822
If the plot is good the animation won´t matter to me. Blame, Sidonia and Ajin are examples of that for me.

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>>157578956

>>157579265
>>157579438
>>157579539
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhGjCzxJV3E

I understand your sentiment, but I disagree with you on a few things.

One, with anime models you can rig facial expression as keys. This of course requires the modeler to also be the key animator for the facial expressions, but you can rig the anime faces to act as keys and swap models mid blend. Not only that but with controlled normals for an anime style you get good deformation.

Also, the biggest part of your scenario that is a problem is the production pipeline, and the animators themselves not also being 3D modelers. Making assets to acomplish things like smears is actually fairly easy and would aid 2D limited animation a lot for many studios, but the 3D animators don't know jack shit about 2D animation and just interpolate pose to pose.

I think the pipeline is possible, and some anime studios are getting it. The problem is the transition might initially be more expensive than what animu already cost, so many just avoid it and use shitty 3D.

Also Disney did do many experiments with 2D 3D programs in their time. A lot of their later works heavily utilized such techniques. The problem is the talent doesn't exist in America and the cost make no sense because audiences have demonstrated they simply prefer 3D because it's new and shiny.

>>157579265
>>157579438
>They didn't adopt a pseudo 3d 2d facsimile to continue their animation brand

The difference here is that the style and limited-ness of animation in anime is a large part of what defines it as an identifiable "other" type of animation from that Disney and Dreamworks approach. If you take that away you are essentially competing directly with those kinds of companies which Japanese firms neither have the funds or talent to do.

The real problem I think with them trying to approach 3D animation like 2D animation is the lack of skill in the animators of the 3D work in 2D limited animation and the limits of the rigging they have for things like facial expressions. Those things would only improve over time, Polygon who made most of what is in OP have improved considerably, facial expressions were much better in Blame! than Sidonia for example and there were far less movements that just looked retarded.

There were some scenes in Blame! where it looked though like they had just uniformly removed every other frame rather than putting effort/skill into selecting which frames could be removed and which poses were of importance. When they do that it almost always ends up just looking like choppy poor animation.

If anything though I would say the main issue is animator skill not anything to do with 3D inherently being a bad way to portray limited animation. Some examples of it like the 3DCG in Black Rock Shooter are great.

Have a read of this:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2016/02/20/general/cg-gains-real-foothold-anime/
They are well aware of the issues with their approach and working towards improving on it.

>>157580491
>Those smears utilizing extra hand models

This is really great.

>>157576822
I'm fine with it. Kemono Friends was great and ID-0 is shaping up to be good as well. The technology does need improvement, though.

>>157580675
You bring up another good point.

When working with a limited frame count generally a person might add an extra frame here or there to make some motion more smooth than others but more importantly when it's really important for motion to show people will use "motion blur" in the way of smears to connect frames which gives the illusion of smoothness but also maintaining the feeling of 2D.

Even if you are a skilled pure 3D animator chances are you never really got familiar with all the things that go along with 2D animating.

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>>157580706
Also has speedlines

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>>157581199
Sidemouth works too.

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>>157580806
I don't know if you've ever seen the battle scenes in Black Rock Shooter TV anime? They had a skilled 2D animator Imaishi directing them and I really think that shows. It to me for the most part just looks like "anime" animation rather than shitty 3DCG attempting to imitate anime animation and was made years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0XssHL6ka4
It probably helps that they aren't trying to do expressions and all of the rest of it so much which is often one of the most jarring parts and its action only which is probably one of CGs strengths but still. I think thats a clear example of where having skilled 2D animator helping 3D animators to achieve this kind of effect paid off.

It's really interesting how they seem to at first be working in full animation and then remove frames after. I think that's where a lot of it falls down. If you do a shitty job of that frame removal process and for example literally just take out every other frame you just end up with animation that looks like it has frames missing. It was once a smooth arc of motion that suddenly becomes choppy. Rather than limited animation that has been drawn from the ground up taking into account its limitations by a skilled 2D animator who knows how to account for that and portray movement well, when more frames are needed to portray certain movements, when not to even try to portray a certain movement if unable to use enough frames to convey it in a non-shit way and so on.

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>>157581237
And fairly emotive faces.

Not a fan of the shading, but that's clearly an artistic choice, they have demonstrated different styles in other CG productions.

>>157581285
Some studios have taken to just animating 3D frame by frame to make up for this.

Also, speaking of good directors you reminded me of another thing 3D always fucks up.

If you watch a lot of anime, even really good animation you will notice that cameras do not do a lot of rotations. That's because keeping on model with a rotating camera is hard. When people get 3D models they suddenly want to rotate everything, but rotation makes almost any scene look either 3D or poorly animated, even when done by hand.

Gianax animators got around this a lot by having clever cuts and never showing rotation when 2D animation. For example at trigger in Space Patrol Laluco when the giant ship goes across the entire screen it rotates from it's front to it's back, but they intelligently transition so the rotation happens while you are viewing a smear of the ship that covers the entire screen, so you never lose the feeling of 2D (the entire thing is 2D animated of course, but you can make 2D animation feel 3D if you do perfect shape translations.)

>>157580675
The issue becomes, however, the animation of the rigging to achieve the same thing with hand drawn animation takes much, much longer. I model and do rigging myself. I'm not a professional animator but I do know through my rigging tasks how long it takes animators to achieve something. There is a great bit of footage by one of the Overkill guys (made payday) showing his step-by-step process for animating a reload.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWHXcwsJP_Q

What is cut out is all the manual rigging manipulation. This is why everything is going mocap for games/movies. The amount of man-hours to "manually" animate anything in 3d is much longer than people realize and far longer compared to 2d keyframing. There are of course trade offs on either side, but once again - there is a huge amount lost in the pseudo2d effort and that's the freedom to "break away from the rigging convincingly with just a pencil stroke" - I'm having trouble conveying just what kind of roadblock is there, but believe me, it's very much there and that's why no one in the west has developed it. Cartoons in the west, if they aren't beast wars tier serials, are still done with hand drawing (and lots of importing of asian labor). There are no "in between" It's either "Pixar" type affairs, or Avatar type affairs. The reason why there is no in between is because there comes a point where the cost of trying to save costs exceeds the medium you are attempting to emulate... for the purpose of cost savings. Whoever is trying it in Japan, for some reason, doesn't realize this yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5m40eF3C9E

There is tech out there that might help bridge the gap - but that's really just going into mocap.

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This all looks like trash. Any person deeming 3d to be good is trash. Stop praising the end of 2d. 2d is already dead in the west and I will kill myself if it dies in the east too. I would take the shittiest most souless cash in 2d animation over the highest quality better than any anime ever 3d, because once you let 3d start winning it takes over and 2d becomes an art project niche.

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>>157581466
Indeed. This scene should be a good demonstration of the issue. As long as they just zoom and roll it mostly seems fine, but once they start with other rotations the CG becomes quite obvious.

>>157581702
I don't know how you find shit to EXACTLY illustrate what I'm talking about, but good job. This is a perfect example. It actually looks convincingly 2D EXCEPT when the camera rotates.

>>157581466
>Some studios have taken to just animating 3D frame by frame to make up for this.
Now I am not saying that Kemono Friends is an example of great animation, there is plently dodgy about it, but I remember reading an article in CGWORLD where they were talking about how they did this and I actually think that is at least in part some of what makes it more tolerable to those who are used to watching anime. Another thing it didn't do was make tons of use of crazy rotations like you are talking about. There were probably a couple in the entire show and all kept readable and in action scenes. Limited by the size of the team with what they could do I suppose. They also said they kept the rigging really simple for that reason. But I think those factors did help to make it feel more 2D anime like.

>>157581622
>I'm having trouble conveying just what kind of roadblock is there, but believe me, it's very much there and that's why no one in the west has developed it.
I understand what you are getting at. With 3D animation it's much harder to experiment with things that purposefully go off model rapidly and that is a technique often employed in 2D animation to convey movement in a convincing manner which makes the translation of 2D to 3D more difficult. The difference is I don't think that makes it impossible or an inherently bad approach. I think the reason the West has given up on it is that it really just isn't that important to them or their audience. The Japanese and international fanbase of anime like anime for being anime though.

>Whoever is trying it in Japan, for some reason, doesn't realize this yet
But the thing is they are finding success with these approaches and gaining support among the target audience of these shows year on year. While doing that they are improving the technology they use and becoming more skilled at doing so. I think its just a matter of time at this point before it becomes more efficient and more capable than now in most respects.

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>>157581824
Occasionally I watch shows just to check out the state of CG. Precure is a goldmine for that purpose since it nicely illustrates the progress they made over the years.

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>>157581676
Japan's determined to maintain the design philosophy they've created over the decades, as they are a very tradition-oriented society. As such they won't do away with 2D animation entirely but one must remember that stagnation is death and innovation is necessary for the health of an industry and thus one must consider the benefits of turning to other means beyond what has been established for generations if they wish to succeed.

>>157582117
I don't think its just a thing about tradition or philosophy but from a purely business perspective its a key part of their USP as animators that is at threat.

>>157581702
>>157582117
If 3D looks like this i dont mind watching it.

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>>157579065
At first the animation creeped me out, then it grew on me.

>>157581676
It's already too late anon.

Mecha similar things are largely CG. Random props are occasionally CG if they have the right properties to make CG ideal. I recall anons obsessing over a CG clock in oreimo. Office building interiors or your ever-present after-school club rooms are especially amenable to CG.
And those times when they're not CG they're instead filtered or traced photos.

What remains are the parts where it's less economical to use. Mostly "organic" things. People, monsters, non-urban landscapes. Or things that need to be manipulated in a one-off fashion, like exploding landscapes in action scenes.

Consider the rope.

>>157582117
>innovation is necessary
Clearly, it isn't.
Tried and true >>>>>>>>>> innovative and complete shit

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>>157582416
I bet you only watch silent b/w films.

>>157582117
When 2d dies it will die just like it did in the west. Disney wanted to maintain their 2d animation and they are one of the largest companies in the world and they found 3d to just be much more profitable and some of the greatest 2d animators from there were laid off and largely do nothing major. Tech improvements should focus on tweening and computer interpretation of 2d rather than going 3d instead, basically lowering the costs of the busy work and focusing budget on what makes 2d stand out.

>>157582416
Almost all the stuff that makes 2D animation impressive was innovative just a short 10-20 years ago.

>>157581992
I did consider the demand of Anime vs. the perception of Cartoons in the west weighted against Asian and chiefly Japanese efforts and drive - but that breaks open a can of worms 2 shelves over.
You mention the fanbase of anime and for liking it being anime. Maybe there is enough demand within the market of anime to keep coaxing peripheral progress on pseudo2d development along, but I don't see it becoming a competitive leader anytime in the next 20 years, if not longer - unless tastes completely change. (I thought blame looked like shit but people are praising it for its visuals, I can only attribute that to a hugely different taste). Will Anime fans still like Anime if it loses its core aesthetic? While a flawed film in some respects, Koe no Katachi was gorgeously animated, and in a way that is impossible to do with CG. Your correct interpretation of why I was trying to convey actually singles out one of the aspects to its beauty.

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible to achive the same thing, I'm saying the costs to do so will become so exorbitant as to make the financiers wonder what the point was in the first place. Anime's attempt to develop 3d/CGI/a pseudo 2d aesthetic is for the sake of cost cutting, nothing else. In the case of Blame!, as an example, they really played up CG's strengths in an attempt to sell the audience on quality, but to a learned eye the entire thing was cheaply made. The general audience will eventually get that same eye through simple osmosis, this is why "game cut scenes" look so dated, even if they are only decade old, compared to anything animated. (Snow white, 1937, 80 fucking years old!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpWfgLTRPGo

Good conversation none the less.

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>>157582387
Thankfully 2d is still putting up a good fight and Japan does largely still love it even though there is a lot more cost cutting 3d being interspersed for crowds and cityscapes. Although I'll buy some good rope incase things go the same way America did.

>>157582545
>Tech improvements should focus on tweening and computer interpretation of 2d
Live2D and similar companies do that for the mobile and VN-like game market.
And in the west you still have 2D TV shows and direct-to-home release cartoons.
The most perplexing thing is that southpark switched to using Maya.

>>157582683
>(Snow white, 1937, 80 fucking years old!)
That looks nice for the most part, but I am glad that digital coloring got us over the "Conspicuously Light Patch" issue. The book for example here.

>>157582814
Yeah something like a more advanced live2d would be great to replace dialogue heavy shots, maybe some kind of image recognition tweening too. Southpark is a bit weird, in this one scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwNF08rTH2E they have a 3d model + their 2d character rig + traditional.
>direct-to-home
Wow still looks like DC puts out some decent animation. Didn't know they continued Justice League movies.

>>157582683
>I'm saying the costs to do so will become so exorbitant as to make the financiers wonder what the point was in the first place.
It doesn't necessarily have to go that way in my opinion. At the moment it clearly makes financial sense since they are doing it but what if they can achieve technological and skill based improvements that in a piecemeal fashion move towards a better emulation of 2D animation with 3D animation while keeping costs sufficiently low? I suppose that is the main point of contention here really and what remains to be seen. Honestly you probably have more knowledge than me when it comes to the feasibility of that becoming a reality, maybe there is too much that will be too manually labour intensive and that can't be changed, but I can imagine it being possible.

Also one could consider that if full 3D productions become more commonplace they will become more accepted and seen as normal rather than exceptional. Maybe that means a transformation and evolution of what is considered the "anime style" of animation.

Just as an aside I personally would hate to see 2D animation dying out completely in the Japanese industry and am really interested in and appreciative of it generally. And that is probably one of the main reasons for having interest in the progress of 3D in the industry. So I am not in any way someone arguing that 3D should replace 2D or anything. Just not one of those people that is just going to say "It's 3D therefore its trash" regardless of anything else.

But yeah as you said refreshing to actually have a decent conversation here.

Ajin is actually pretty good.

>/a/ now likes cg anime
What the fuck happened?

>>157583454
>Just as an aside I personally would hate to see 2D animation dying out completely in the Japanese industry
This is exactly what everyone said when Pixar made the scene with Toy Story. Then 2D slowly died and now all we have left is spongebob and teen titans go. once CGI is accepted it will replace 2D largely and many traditional techniques will be lost as there won't be much demand.

>>157576822
Ew

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>>157584001
>he doesn't like Patrician-tier anime like gdgd Fairies or Tesagure

>>157584052
>Then 2D slowly died and now all we have left is spongebob and teen titans go
You're forgetting that the west has had a revitalization in 2D animation due to the success of Adventure Time.

Good 3D like Gantz:O are enjoyable but It doesn't feel like anime

>>157584001
Meme shows, memes ruin everything, they ruined 4chan, they ruined anime, they ruined the US, they are ruining society.

>>157577525
I raped your mom for the plot

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I've been looking for a good reason to quit anime, or at least modern anime for a good while now and CG is good enough for me.

I still have manga anyway.

>>157576822
New styles are necessary to make this work. Top right is in the right direction.

>>157584130
I do wish something more would have come from it, it seems like there is a want for some non comedy gag cartoons in the west. Though the way everything is set up business wise it looks like they don't prosper well, though Adult Swim and Toonami seem like the ones that could maybe start something better.

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>>157584246
>I still have manga anyway.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAA. Let me tell you a secret: Manga has a lot of 3D and filtered photographs too. I've even seen h-doujins made from b/w shaded 3D.

>>157576822
whats bottom left? actually looks really good

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>>157584487

>>157584531
>movie released in the last few days
have you been living under a rock?

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This is the true future

>>157584487
here I was thinking that these artists hand drew everything 100% by themselves

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>>157584487
But that's just the equivalent of anime adding CG effects to enhance the 2D animation, not nearly as bad as alien-looking 3DCG character art.

>>157584052
It isn't quite so simple I think with the Japanese industry though. The style of animation there is one of the major unique selling points of their product and what differentiates it from other animation around the world. If that was eliminated then they would be left competing much more directly than currently, although the product would still be differentiated by subject matter and target audience, with much better financed and produced animation from all around the world.

So it isn't quite as simple for 3D to just replace 2D as an inevitability if they want to preserve their animation industry. If they eventually go 3D they will need to find a way to force 3D to keep the anime flavour or quite possibly just die out altogether if not. That is a big part of the reason why 2D animation in Japan still persists when it is kind of mostly floundering everywhere else commercially. The 2D animation and the anime style it allows for are unique to Japan and loved by fans all around the world.

>>157584607
I don't check every single thread that comes on /a/ or on any board

>>157584784
Kemono Friends still BTFO western friendly series like SnK and Hero Academia, Japan will easily let go of its western audience if it leads to similar success.

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>company puts no effort into the 3d
>looks like shit
>company puts effort into the 3d
>looks great
wow who would have thought.

One massive downside of 3D models is that simply changing a character's outfit needs an entire new expensive model - which in turn means that the 3D characters only ever wear the same clothes.

>>157584487
Manga using 3D isn't nearly as bad and noticeable as in anime. Gantz was made entirely on 3D and it works quite nice for the action even if the faces looked a little potato.

>>157585053
Yeah, that's pretty bad for anything where the source material has the characters are parading around a fashion show worth of outfits. It's what bothered me with arpeggio, the characters to tend to swap and tweak their outfits over time, the anime had nothing of that.

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>>157585053
>2D Character
>have to essentially redraw the character except for their face
>3D character
>have to create a new clothes model that can be fit into an existing model and the same animations can be re-used.
Oh but who am I kidding animation studios aren't that smart.

I wouldn't have any problems with 3D if the characters weren't so damn choppy. Like I didn't mind Sidonia CGI when it focused on the spaceships and action, but I couldn't really get into it when the characters moved like defective robots. Majestic Prince did this right, the action scenes were amazing thanks to the CGI robots while the characters remained 2D.
2D anime usually has limited animation too, but it isn't nearly as jarring as it when its 3D.

>>157576822
CGI=/=Anime

You probably thought Tangled was anime too.

>>157585198
There is a considerable up-front cost to creating new models. And no, you can't reuse the animation because you have to take care of the clothing physics. And clothing doesn't really get reused that much outside uniforms, but uniforms don't need much swapping since they're uniforms.

2D animation on the other hand entails continuous costs depending on the detail level. The cost does not change when you swap to a different outfit of a similar detail level.

A character going through 8 different outfits in a single episode will cost about the same as a single outfit.
Making 8 one-off models just to have one of those clothes-shopping scenes takes significantly more effort.

>>157584001
The past few seasons have had some legitimately good CGI shows.

>>157585429
Good isn't the word I would be using. There are improvements, but we're still far from matching the quality of well-done 2D shows.

>>157584866
It's not just about a western audience, its about the Japanese audience too. The 3D in Kemono Friends isn't an example of normal and won't work time and time again. It just works in specific circumstances.

The 3D works in the case of Kemono Friends because it works with the rest of the show and meta context of the show, to lower the viewers expectations and guard before luring them in and make the show come off as moe in itself rather than just the characters. The mostly light hearted nature of the series makes it work too. It is a specific application of 3D that done in most other contexts would have never produced the same success. It was a very intentional and shrewd strategy on the part of the production and direction team of the show.

Then you have shows like Tesabu and gdgd Fairies where they were relatively successful and the cheap 3D worked because it was a comedy to begin with and it just made it even funnier when things would look fucked up. There was definitely a bit of that in Kemono Friends too. Another factor is that they still somehow managed to get the characters to come off as cute rather than uncanny as many 3D productions from Japan do. If you take something like the new Berserk though which had some cheap 3D animation especially in the first series then that kind of serious edgy drama thing fails to work and makes the serious comical.

The reason for the 3D working in Kemono Friends is a combination of circumstances surrounding the show, context in the series, directorial decisions and the actual limitations or directorial decisions around the animation itself meaning they couldn't/didn't fully exploit 3D animation "bells and whistles" like camera rotation and things.

>>157585053
I actually read that this is part of why they decided against making the locker room scene in Blame! with Zuru and Tae a proper nude one in one of the interviews in CGWORLD.

>>157585463
I think he's talking about the overall quality of the shows.

>>157585703
But whether a show has good plot, characters or whatever should not affect judgement of the CG quality.

>>157585386
>Making 8 one-off models just to have one of those clothes-shopping scenes takes significantly more effort.
Eh I call bullshit here. Once you have a basic library of models and clothing types skirt pants shirt dress jacket etc it's just textures from there not every outfit is as fluffy and ribbon covered as the precure dresses.

>>157585764
You have to consider that some styles demand the clothing to be almost vacuum-shrunk to the body.

>>157576822
I don't care.

>>157579832
Thats just 3d with a 2d face those lines and art style doesn't fit in at all with the rest.

>>157576822
the one on the bottom left was mildly enjoyable also I don't care as long as animators get paid more, people shouldn't have to work 6 days a week 14 hours a day for only 900$ usd per month. I feel really bad for animators, they are really abused, outside of drawing they don't even have an opportunity to live

>>157585833
Then take the body and adjust the skin textures don't fucking tell me you can't do that.

>>157585879
coreans and flips are not people, you shouldn't treat them as such.

>>157576822
why is it that anime cg series always seem a bit off but video games that have had cg cutscenes since the 90's look amazing in comparison? Why not just get the game cg teams to do short anime series?

>no Etotama posted
Of course not, it would destroy your ideas and arguments that 3DCGI anime looks bad.

>>157585918
I hope karma kills you one day, the world needs less cruel people like yourself

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>>157585900
note the almost

>>157585959
>What is a normal map?

>>157585937
It has been mentioned in the other thread.

The CGI in BLAME was passable except on humans. It looked fucking bad on Killy.

>>157585748
No but it encourages people to reconsider their judgement on 3DCG shows. I'm sure that for a lot of people it's a rather irrational hatred against something they don't know much about.

>>157576822
it looks cool if the artist is good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rm9kAaGUJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQyLwNyfyIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCJJfOhTJo

>>157586100
It's really too bad I'm terrible at fighting games, this seems fun.

>>157586059
When people hate on CG shows they hate it for the CG, not for the other parts.

>>157585998
I really don't think it matters. Going through my screenshots folder all characters have fairly unique outfiits. Even school uniforms are highly distinctive between shows. Sure, some base models might be useful as starting points for modification, but in the end you still have to put in some customization work, even for one-off things. Otherwise you get the visual equivalent of stock sound effects. And that's the point, the customization work on 3D models + texturing takes more effort than just panning over a still that was drawn once.

>>157586201
>Otherwise you get the visual equivalent of stock sound effects.
>implying that anime doesn't use stock sound effects right now
You know that quality sound libraries have solved this problem a long time ago. Do the same thing for 3D models and everyone can go back to their animating.

>>157586100
why can't cg anime look like this?

>>157585925
Because it would cost shitloads of money to even approach the quality of those videos for a full length Anime series or movie.

>>157586358
because /a/ hates /v/

>>157586359
probably still less than a hand drawn series, a small game company can't possibly have that large a budget

>>157586328
>implying that anime doesn't use stock sound effects right now
I have not implied such thing. I am quite aware in fact.
>You know that quality sound libraries have solved this problem a long time ago.
If only, there are recycling very recognizable things way too often. Berserk's CLANG is an especially prominent example

>>157586526
>Blaming bad sound direction on sound libraries.
Seriously?
You are telling me that berserk was perfect except for the clang. That was a shit show made by shit people. You cant point at that and tell me it was the recycled sounds that made it shit.

>>157586358
Because that would be really expensive vor a 13*24 minutes anime show.

>>157586723
But they make 12 eps and then keep going on and making other shows making it less and less expensive for every episode and new show they make.

>>157586709
>You are telling me that berserk was perfect except for the clang.
How the fuck are you reading that from my post?

>Blaming bad sound direction on sound libraries.
No. I'm just saying that if what you propose where common then visual recycling of stock outfits would also become a new issue that did not exist before.

>>157586801
>visual recycling of stock outfits would also become a new issue
There is no way that is true when anime already has entire series where the only outfit change is for the beach episode.

>>157586893
But that's confined to that show. What you propose is global reuse.

>>157586930
A skirt is a skirt just change the color or texture.

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>>157587007
nigger please. skirts come in thousands of variations. do you even pay attention to skirts?
try doing this in CGI with your stock models.

>>157584973
>company puts effort into the 3d
>looks like shit
>company puts no effort into 3d
>friends

>>157587094
>This skirt has vertical lines all the way down but that one only has the lines at the bottom edge.
Textures are your friend
>One is longer than the other
Ok change the length.

>Animate this thing I picked specifically to fight you
You win. When characters take off their clothes and they deform into unnatural flat shapes it is harder than when they are stuck to the body model you happy now?
Every other case is easier in 3D.

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>>157587286
I picked this example for the undressing, which involves clothing-physics in a very obvious manner. Clothing physics also are important in more subtle ways when they're on the body.
I did not pick it for model complexity, so I'll just dismiss your textures argument since other skirts are obviously more complex, which would be trivially obvious in closer shots. Also, length is not the only thing, the night skirt obviously has ruffles while the other is pleated. Not to mention that longer skirts flow differently.

Closeups, upskirts and the like happen, your models have to reflect that accuracy level, not just the average case.

Anime characters don't exactly have very complicated faces. They are largely distinguished by hairstyle, eye color and CLOTHING. So cheaping out models that are oversimplified and endlessly recycled would be terrible.

>>157587672
>16 same length pleated skirts
one model so far
4 skirts with 2 symmetrical fold/cuts
2 models so far
one short smooth skirt and one long smooth skirt for oniisama because short skirts are for sluts
4 models total 3 if you just change the dimensions on the smooth skirt

>>157587966
>16 same length pleated skirts
you must be blind if you think they only differ in textures

>>157588046
You must be an idiot if you think I don't know how to save energy when making 3D models. This is my fucking job. It takes less time to adjust one model to the next than it does to draw a single frame of 2D animation.

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>>157588215
number of pleats differ, pleat folding differs. one of them has a slit, these in turn affect the physics how the fold when they sit or are pushed up by the wind or when doing action things. some are actually a dress, a few have decorations on the rims. those things are especially noticeable in fanservicey scenes or closeups where things are shaded a little more accurately.

To me it seems you're either oversimplifying things or sweeping a lot of adjustments under the rug.
I might be wrong, but then I would like some evidence that it only takes a few minutes of work to adjust the model including physics.

>>157576822
The future of anime is superior China and Korea. Being more progressive and multicultural is unsurprisingly better. I for one welcome to the generation of anime that will cover nations with greater history

>>157576822
fug

>>157588516
You're holding my 3D skirts to a higher standard than your own 2D
Animation studios that have the budget do the work to make things look nice. Ones that don't have shitty looking 2D skirts just as bad as a flat skirt with pleat textures placed on top.

>>157582117
this looks pretty fucking good though, but I don't know if that's just the artstyle

>>157588672
That might apply to distance shots, but in the scenario you mentioned - clothes shopping - you would get closeups and pans. With 2D you're not limited to a single detail level, with 3D you essentially have to consider the highest detail level you will eventually have to show.
I have mentioned that several times, how are you just ignoring that?

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>>157588839
It's mimicking the cutscene artwork.

>>157588846
A pan over a single drawing and a closeup shot of the same drawing.

>>157579116
This.

We need to resurrect those lost arts.

Clay anime when?

>>157588990
Good, so you admit that this would be way too expensive in 3D. Next up, characters that sport a new outfit every other episode or shows that go through several seasons and thus need weather-appropriate clothing.

>>157589060
No I admit that lazy 2D artists can save in that one scene but for every other one lazy 3D artists can just skip the work entirely still resulting in the same quality product.

>>157576822
Izana a cute.
CUTE!

Still needs work if they want to emulate 2D animation. The best results so far come from shorts and OVAs but even then character animation ends to leave much to be desired. They haven't figured out how to create limited character animation than isn't stiff. CG animators should study the works of animators who are skilled in the realism style to get a better grasp of good limited character animation.

>>157589121
>every other one
Hardly, I can think of a lot of things that are single-use. I posted another one earlier >>157587094

Anyway, we have gotten overly specific. My original point >>157585386 was that with 3D you pay higher up-front costs while effort to animate them mostly depends on the amount of motion, not on the object complexity.

Single-use, mostly static, high-complexity things aren't really that much of an issue with 2D since they're basically just a drawing + a few photoshop layers if you want to get really fancy. Continuously animating complex objects on the other hand would murder you. And this isn't just true for objects but also for backgrounds.

You're basically changing the tradeoffs which will influence decisions where to cut costs.

And from observation so far it seems like in practice there's a tendency to animate viewer outfits, not more.

I mourn the loss of 2d but those artists get paid less than poverty wage. At least a 3D animator can make a living wage, though only if they live very cheaply.
As the tech and techniques improve the difference will become less noticeable. I'll be fine if every show looks like that Blame movie.

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>>157584001
>>/a/ now likes cg anime
>/a/
Don't put me together with these newfags, I'm full on pic related about this.

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>>157590733
Life is overrated anyway.

>>157590733
Miyazaki is quite happy to use CG, he has used in it Ghibli films on multiple occasions. I believe before he started work on his new film he was working on a 3DCG short about a caterpillar too.

>>157576822
These are QUALITY frames
You get the same thing in 2d

>>157576822
why is more anime being done in cgi? is it cheaper to make?

>>157591799
It's not categorically cheaper, but it is cheaper for certain things.

>>157592228
No just cheaper but quicker too once you have the models made.

>>157592299
cheaper, fewer manhours, quicker. same shit, people cost money.

>>157578860
Honestly, I think the designs of this movie should have struck a medium between this and the designs of previous animated versions.

>>157592350
It isn't the same shit realistically speaking. Quicker can be very important in anime where it is often schedule that is the constricting factor on the quality of 2D animation rather than budget. You can go "well you can just hire more animators which is the same as more money" but there isn't an unlimited supply of them able to work on a short notice to the standard of quality you need necessarily.

>>157592459
fine, asymptotically the same shit.

Not liking 3D but liking 2D on just principle is like only appreciating water painting, but hating oil paintings. I mean you can, it's just retarded. Every medium has it's purpose and cgi/3d can do almost everything 2D can, and more. The only real difference is that 2D has a lot more years of development going for it.

That gap is naturally narrowing every year. Most of the shit examples are from poor budgets or time constraints that result in QUALITY even in 2D, anyway.

>>157592794
I'll stop hating 3D when it stops looking like ass which it does 99% of the time.

>>157592794
>3d can do almost everything 2D can, and more
In theory. In practice this has not been the case so far. People's opinions are shaped by what they see, not what could be.

>>157576822
But Blame! Knights of Sidonia and Ajin are all good.

>>157581290
>>157581237
>>157581199
this looks fantastic

gantz was pretty good desu

>>157581702
Is this shot from Blame? It looks really, surprisingly good

>>157597381
I think that is from Kado a TV anime airing this season?

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How come nobody points out in these threads that 3d cutscenes in anime style japanese games look fine? The issue is obviously not 3d itself, it's that anime studios are incompetent with 3d.

I know >naruto, but look at this shit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hicSn5RuvR8

The same devs who do the naruto games who made that also made a CG short that looks amazing as well, webm related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hicSn5RuvR8


>>157578956
You can absolutely have the models distort dynamically, watch the videos above

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>>157581290
Whats with the lazy hair bangs highlighting this season?

>>157597561
The studios making full 3D anime are 3D studios, not traditional 2D studios trying something new. The Naruto thing doesn't look bad. Then again neither does the CG in Black Rock Shooter TV anime. Animating action scenes and the like is one of CGs strengths. Where it often falls down is character acting and things like portraying expressions. Where serious can come across as comical or uncanny quite easily and poor animation can lead to stiff robotic look motions. A short is just that a short, more quality is easier to achieve in a smaller package, and action to boot?

>>157582100
why does the framerate on this look atrocious?

>>157586201
hating CG is like hating music itself. Is dumb because you are hating the medium, not the product of that medium

>>157598461
>25% speed

>>157576822
what's bottom left? Looks like the director actually gave it some love...unlike berserk

>>157598687
The new BLAME! film it is made by the same studio as Sidonia but they have definitely improved their technology quite a bit since then and probably taken more time on it than an episode of TV anime too. Not that it is perfect but definitely watchable.

>>157592794
>3d can do almost everything 2D can, and more
3D can do things 2D can't, and viceversa

The point of it all is that the studio should pick the right tool for the job, but they are doing a poor job at doing so. And also that even if you pick 3D, the animators available aren't all up to par

>>157598777
A lot of the bad name of CG in anime fandom comes from shows that try to integrate it into a mostly 2D environment and it sticks out like a sore thumb.

>>157597548
Pretty sure that's not Kado. Kado looks good too (>>157577815), but its style is somewhat different.

>>157599163
Project Itoh: Harmony I remember being dissapointed by that film although I never gave it a real chance. Mainly because Takashi Nakamura and Michael Arias directing it together gave me high expectations.

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>>157582117
>but one must remember that stagnation is death and innovation is necessary for the health of an industry and thus one must consider the benefits of turning to other means beyond what has been established for generations if they wish to succeed.

Jew

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3D anime will never replace 2D anime not because of cost, talent or subjective taste....

The key detail here is the mathematical properties of 2D (x,y) and 3D (x,y,z) such that each medium uniquely alternates any input.

The theory of self reproducing Automata by John Von Neumann states that organism differ from artificial machines by the way they process and reproduce information.

Simply put , organisms ,being made up of simple building blocks, are able to produce things more complex than themselves while artificial machines, being made up of complex building blocks, produce things simpler than themselves.

Thus, If 2D(x,y) is simpler than 3D(x,y,z) , then 2D anime will always produce more organic animation than 3D anime.

In conclusion, 2D>3D

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>>157598777
>3D can do things 2D can't
See>>157600873

>>157600899
Not that guy, but good luck trying to draw video related in 2D.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8NtOiXTXg

>>157576822
Ajin could've been a great anime

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>Etotama might be the best and most memorable CGI usage on the story of japanimation
>nobody even watched it
It's kinda sad(and weird) how Kemono Friends become so popular and Etotama didn't, and before you meme reply to me, I loved Kemono Friends too.

>>157580675
Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Looking closely you can alot of movement reduce down to 3s or 8fps, while most 2d anime is on 2s/ 12fps with modulation depending on the type of movement.

In short someone there including the ceo at polygon are either blind or doesnt care.