>A renowned critic of literature and film approaches you.

>>157543663
my penis

Naruto

>>157543663
Nice stealth recommendation thread but it wasn't stealth enough to fool me.

>>157543663
Neon Genesis Evangelion of course. It is the third best piece of art of all time right after Beckett's Endgame and Dostoyevsky's Notes from Underground.

Well, he's obviously the real neckbeard around here.

I would point out that critics don't produce anything. They don't improve anything. They don't make the world a better or more interesting place. All they do is talk about stuff that other people have created. Critics like him are nothing more than parasites feeding on the works of others, and therefore nothing critics have to say matters in the least.

>>157543663
I'd ask him how the FUCK he got into the barracks

>>157543762
Yeah well without them we're already seeing a decline in quality from all forms of media. Criticism is good, it lets you see things about your work that you can't see due to your bias.

>>157543663
I'd ask him for evidence for his clearly objective analysis.

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Do you guys do this in real life? Do you make it your mission to prove wrong anybody who calls anime trash?

I wouldn't give a fuck and have nothing to prove to him. Heck he's probably right about anime being trash, even

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>>157543663
Himouto! Umaru-chan

>>157543840
He'd probably go for the most popular but flawed anime first.

I could see a bloodbath sprouting from an analysis of the Dragonball franchise for example. The moment you say "But it's corny and fun an inspired shonen tropes" is the moment you lost.

>>157543663
I'd buy that guy a beer.

>>157543663
I would agree with him, send him on his way and continue to watch anime.

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>>157543688

>>157543663
Boku no Pico

When was the last time you heard someone irl disrespect anime?

Not counting my memester brother, 2 weeks ago by aunt's boyfriend

I would probably agree with him. Even the most patrician anime and manga doesn't hold a candle to top western storywriting.

>>157543884
Yeah, but why waste your time enjoying junkfood media when you could be expanding your mind and spirit with pieces that push the human condition?

Akira Kurosawa basically invented modern film and thus japan holds responsibility for cementing film to the same level that literature stood.

Are you willing to admit japan has fallen?

Haibane Renmei

>>157543933
You do know I'm leading him to a point in which he really can't answer, right? It's called being a dick and refusing to argue "properly".
Criticism of art is not objective unless we're actually talking objective characteristics, which tend to be average or above average or not matter to the whole in any relevant manner, e.g. animation, coloring, plot holes (these are the worst), etc. Let's say we know what the author wanted to do with their works and actually tried to push something through "odd" choices in coloring or animation for example, but even then, maybe the critic didn't "understand" the author's point himself, but others did. So then who is right in claiming that the point was properly delivered, the other viewers or the critic?

>>157544020
came here to post this

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I would show him Shigeru Mizuki's Showa: A History of Japan and Onward Towards Our Noble Deaths.

>>157544113
An actual critic would ignore you though, because that isn't far from someone digging towards nihilist bedrock to counter an argument.

>>157543663
>What would you show him to prove him wrong?
The door, because I don't give a fuck about what he thinks or what esoteric garbage he thinks is somehow highbrow.

>>157543663
>prove him wrong
Why would I want to?

I can't prove him wrong, so I guess I just chimp out and beat his ass for insulting my waifu

>>157543884
That's why you always got bullied.

>>157543663
Filmmaking is a lot more than just "plot", I think there are a good number of anime movies of the same quality as the greats of world cinema in general.

>>157544169
So the critic lost. Good riddance.
Why did he bother if he can't accept the truth?

Also, this works with art but it won't work with many other subjects. There are simply no criteria that are "objective" when talking about art that matter, and if you try to introduce them, then they start to heavily contradict other criteria.
E.g. if you introduce "popularity" as a criteria, you then dismiss a whole ton of art that in its inception was deemed crap.

>>157543663
I'll just stab him.

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>>157543663
l'd tell him if he wanted generic pre-made recommendations and spoonfeeding, he should go back to /v/, right before reporting him.

>>157543663
His dad sucking my dick.

>>157544303
There is a reason there is an idea of "fairness" in an argument, because it's pretty damn easy to keep pointing towards nihilistic approaches.

Please pull the frankfert out of your ass.

>>157543663
That's not something any critic worth his stuff would ever say, though.

It's impossible to prove him wrong, since he's completely correct. People who make anime and manga don't actually know how to write, which is why they make shit-tier media.

>>157544113
>Criticism of art is not objective
Yes it is. Are you one of those cretins who believe "objectivity" is a synonym for "universal, scientifically proven fact"? Have you not once opened a dictionary in your life?

>>157544299
It was a generalized array of critical points, of course things like scenery would be included.

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>>157544444
Digits speak the truth

>>157544392
>There is a reason there is an idea of "fairness" in an argument
And I was unfair how?
> because it's pretty damn easy to keep pointing towards nihilistic approaches.
How is this nihilism?
Or rather, how is this nihilism specifically, wrong?
>Please pull the frankfert out of your ass.
Please find an argument.
>>157544457
So now "objective" means "neutral"? Are you sure you're not retarded?

>>157544484
Do you sincerely believe "objective opinion" is an oxymoron? Because the only moron here is objectively you.

>>157544093
Why waste your time posting on 4chan?

>>157544432
>>157544020
Well at least the Greeks would agree

>>157544534
>Wasting time
There are productive boards you know.

>>157543663

Sazae-san, but make sure to tell him he's not qualified to reach a conclusion until he's seen the entire thing

>>157544472
I think the critic obviously doesn't understand anything about animated film then, not someone to take seriously.

>>157544509
So what you're going to do is argue lithe semantics?
If we're going to use "objective" as in "unrelated to personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts" then this argument no longer makes sense.
>Because the only moron here is objectively you.
Can you prove that objectively?

>>157543663
Maybe PunPun, but I wouldn't be confident about it.

>>157544571
Then go to them and leave us to our drawings of underaged transvestites.

I agree, and provide examples in depth.
So that his filthy normalfag drones can follow him, and stay the fuck out of animu&mango.

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>>157543663
>What would you show him to prove him wrong?

>>157543663
I'd ask him where he ever got the idea that even the greatest of literature is considered "humanities greatest work". That's just a joke, then I'd ask him to watch some of my top shows reminding him that he has to watch them from a progressive point of view in which renowned critics are known to deeply value. Cucks that they are.

>>157544630
You can objectively suck my girldick. Why would I waste time arguing with a nihlist? The entire idea of argumentation is against your conceptualisation of the world. It's about as close as you can get to literally banging your head against a brick wall without painting a brick wall with your brain matter.

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>>157543663

Tell him to get out. Jaded people aren't worth talking to.

>>157543663
>None of it comparable to humanities greatest works
"So?"

Checkmate.

>>157543663
Cowboy Bebop

>>157544720
>Why would I waste time arguing with a nihlist?
I'm not a nihilist, as I said, I don't renounce objectivity, I renounce it in art because there is none in art.
You do know that you could always just point out all the "objective" and "meaningful" criteria you and critics use to evaluate art instead of going back and forth like this, but then you'd finally find out that you can't really give me any of that, since it does not exist for art.

That would just break your argument, so now you're relying on being a moron to get out of this.

>>157544658
Stop pretending this is an assault on anime. I was making a literal strawman of a critic based on shit I've heard normalfags spew.

The only thing I wish is that there was more of basis to enjoying anime. I've noticed too many people use it as a means to vent their sexual frustrations which has resulted in the more interesting concepts seen in an earlier era to decline. Personally, I had hoped the industry would work towards becoming a leader in the science fiction genre because the west has completely ruined it.

>>157544392
>>157544169
Well I guess I'm unfair since that's how I argue
I'm annoying and keep countering every little thing to trick the fool that tried arguing with me to make dumb mistakes, and generally keep exhausting him and turn into a battle of attrition that I always win because I can argue endlessly about inane bullshit for hours on end since I spend hours in this place

Burden of proof is on him.

>>157544816
>I've noticed too many people use it as a means to vent their sexual frustrations
Fanservice as raunchy as we have right now has always existed.

>>157543663
My di-

>>157543688
FUCK

Anime is for escapism, it doesn't need to be great enough to be comparable with anything, just entertaining enough

>>157544813
It's 11:30 PM and I've work tomorrow. I'm sure you understand why I wouldn't want to waste precious sleep time formulating a coherent enough and extensive argument for an hour or so only to be rewarded with a text equivalent of biglebowskijustyouropinionman.jpg shitpost. I've been there before.
If you're actually interested in gaining a better understanding instead of spreading common misconceptions of what "objectivity" means and beating your chest in triumph over battles of attirition online, you'd have googled this shit yourself. Here you go
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_criticism
Click around on some of the blue words too. Labanakt.

>>157544303
>There are simply no criteria that are "objective" when talking about art that matter

This is such a lazy plebeian argument. There is also no objective criteria for proving that reality isn't fake, but we just assume it is because it'd be pointless to assume otherwise.

Just the same, it's more productive to establish general criteria in storywriting that can be treated as objectively positive, like "Having a coherent plot" than to say "You can't actually objectively prove that Eva is better than Naruto"

>>157544816
You don't think there's a basis to enjoying anime besides getting your dick hard?

>>157544813
There is a subtle lining of objectivity in human judgement and this is whatever arrangement of ideas releases just the right amount of chemicals to be perceived as "good" by the majority of the population. Something that collects independently in the minds of every individual that reaches the same conclusion.

There is a subtle range of logic to it, obviously because humans aren't as "distinct" as we wish we were.

As such, denouncing art criticism by directly approaching objectivism to win is completely retarded. You don't get to "opt out" which is why you're being called a nihilist.
It's like arguing politics and a person going in and saying "Well technically the sun will implode so none of this matters"

To get an idea of the condition of artistic integrity you must argue within the bubble otherwise you are indeed a faggot nihilist who is willing to end all arguments with the idea that objectively, nothing matters.

You will be hated, because you're a critical theory cocksucker who is willing to play all the tricks in the book to denounce an argument without actually playing ball.

Kill yourself like a good nihilist, because you don't matter.

>>157544851
It's just a service though, Not the reason it should exist.
>>157545025
As of now that seems to be the main thing. That or action to get the heart pounding.

>>157544816
In earlier decades Japan wasn't in a decades-long recession combined with an aging population and cultural malaise.

>>157545107
So why aren't there works bringing that about and criticizing it? Art imitates life right?

>>157545094
Where else in the world would a fan of traditional animation look to, if not Japan?

>>157545136
The masses demand opiates.

>>157545017
This isn't how you source your arguments. So what do I need to read there?
>>157545019
Art is not akin to reality.
>it's more productive to establish general criteria
Do it then, establish it. Do what many others tried and failed.
>>157545028
>There is a subtle lining of objectivity in human judgement and this is whatever arrangement of ideas releases just the right amount of chemicals to be perceived as "good" by the majority of the population.
Nice, so you're arguing that popularity defines quality. What do we tell all those artists that were defined as "crap" at their time?
>It's like arguing politics and a person going in and saying "Well technically the sun will implode so none of this matters"
That's not the same thing at all though, not once did I argue this way.
>To get an idea of the condition of artistic integrity you must argue within the bubble
Sure, but none of you ever tried to create this bubble in the first place. Not OP, not you, nor any of the other "non-nihilists" (kek).
Or any critics on that matter, since critics don't agree with each other's criteria anyway.
>you're a critical theory cocksucker who is willing to play all the tricks in the book to denounce an argument without actually playing ball
You do know that you're being disingenuous right now, right? We don't actually have anything to argue against, the "critic" from the OP just said Anime sucks, it's not like he presented an argument.
And neither did you, you're arguing how to argue AKA methodology and you're not providing methodology to counter the fact that there is no objective criteria to define art.
>>157545094
>It's just a service though, Not the reason it should exist.
As I said, it's always been the case that shows like these have existed or material like this was put into Anime.
It's just that you don't remember it because of nostalgia or you haven't tried more old anime.

>>157545028
Not him but you're actually you're absolutely wrong
All that we perceive as good is simply based on local customs and societal norms
Your precious artistic and moral standards in different parts of the world and in different eras would probably paint you as a freak
There is no objectivity, there's only temporary balance and cause and effect

>>157543663
Whoever that hack is isn't that far from the truth, however I sure hope this same person is not one of the retards praising current year art movies only because muh sequence shot meme muh eye-height perspective muh raw production no digital composing muh slice of life dramashit in some african warmongering barren shithole. And again, it is kinda unfair to compare pure literary works that could take between one to three years to conclude something somewhat complex with a japanese style of comic which relies on both visual and narrative as equal, even less when compared to the other two mediums (Film/Anime) which also includes another dimension: Audio. All three of those take a lot more time to produce and usually have to resort to simpler storytelling as the complexity such tasks demands is higher than sitting every day on your desk to write just a single story.

Now, with this I don't want to go full apologetic on mass produced visual media because storytelling had gotten stale as fuck lately with the same cliches and fads used again and again, and this applies to both neverending Kyoanus lifeless moeshit and neverending Muhvel SJW capeshit. This is one of the reasons why of the japanese media I usually prefer manga or even LNs that even though both usually fall in the same pits of memes and sameness as anime this is sometimes complemented with a slighty better layer of storytelling.

In the end, the guy is just another kind of """critic""" that only takes into consideration one of multiple variables or consequences when it comes to visual media, which is 100% retarded.

>>157543663
I would agree, because he's mostly correct.

Nothing made in the past 25 years could ever hope to be compared against classics, because those are literally timeless works of art that will be immortalized in human history. Anime is just colorful cartoons, nothing with any remarkable depth or a theme that hasn't been done to death. The same goes for western things too, barring a few already-classic films.

>>157543933
that'd be on the level of going for fast and the furious series to critique all movies.


>>157543663
probably perfect blue considering it had influence on Aronofsky's works like requiem for a dream and black swan, both of which are critically acclaimed.

>>157545028
God damn, this is probably the best post I ever read for BTFO of the "Art can't be critically judged" fags.

>>157543663
Folklore is better than Elitelore.

>>157543663
He's right

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>>157543663
>>A renowned critic of literature and film approaches you.
I laugh in his face then go back to enjoying myself

>>157543663
>A renowned critic of literature and film approaches you.
How the fuck does he do that? Did he break into my house?

>>157545019
I can play devil's advocate and say Naruto is better than Eva because it's better animated, has better character designs, and the fights are cooler
And I'm curious as to how you objectively prove I'm wrong

>>157543663
Raildex.

>>157545360
When you go out and shop for your yearly provisions.

>>157545028
desu telling others to kill themselves is pretty nihilist

>>157545358
Coward

>>157543663
Kindly ask him how he got past the moat and laser defense grid, because I've been trapped here eating old boots for months.

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>>157543663
I won't bite

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>>157543663
Boku no Pico.

>>157543663
nothing because he sounds like a normalfag that wouldn't like it anyways
who cares what he thinks besides other normalfags

>>157543823
With the internet, we have more critics now than ever. Anon is right. Critics contribute next to nothing nor do they wager anything when tearing another person's work apart. Lack of new hits is more due to the economic reasons (another recession incoming and thus less risks can be made) than a lack of a criticism.

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>>157543663
Let your waifu take care of it

>>157545374
So he must stalk me, right? Wait for the specific day in the year I leave my house, right? In other words, I don't have to counter with anything other than accusing him of being a psycho. Nothing he says will matter because he is sick.

>>157545528
See? You've won the game.

>>157543663
Oyasumi Punpun

>>157545400
>Coward

>>157543663
Tell him to come back when he's seen more than 100 shows.

>>157545363
>Better animated
In what way?
>Better characters
How so?
>Fights are cooler
This is like saying that an action flick has better explosions than a romance flick as if that's some sort of reason why it's better.

Start by specifying why you think Naruto has better characters than Eva and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

>>157545709
*1000

>>157545720
He's baiting you blithering autist

>>157545271
Not popularity, rationalized consensus. You take what people define as good and pick and probe at the possibilities as to why.

There is typically an observable reason for why something might be popular but not necessary good, like artistic opiates. But by putting a little bit of thought into it you can shed away those opiates and dig deeper into an art form that stimulates
Essentially, you don't need to look any further than the people who are smarter and better than you to get a higher level of judgement, a more defined consensus.

So no it's not a broad democracy of popularity but more like an older version of it. The people with actual brains can see a little deeper past the opiates and whatever can place them into deep thought? Well that is the prime cut of beef that is the superior art-form.

>Not once did I argue this way
You basically did, anyone who tries to turn art into post modern meaninglessness is no different than a nihilist.

>>157545280
>Local customs and social norms
And cultures can be objectively shit or objectively good since you can match morality and life style to the human element, the building block of our existence as a living thing. Isn't it funny how a culture who's core values are fatalistic is currently bathing in a river of shit?

>>157545388
It's called telling someone to practice what they preach.

There is nothing more akin to meaningless than to cease existing.

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>>157543663
Kuzu no Honkai is true art.

>>157543663
>A renowned critic
by who? idiots who believe that crap and a specific type of person that critic panders to?

>>157543806
CQ was asleep.

>it's the "anime can be important too" argument again
>people still attempt to justify their interests

It all seems to be rooted in insecurity, honestly. No, anime can not be considered on the same tier as classic literature and film, because that's like comparing Pluto to Saturn. One of which isn't even considered a planet anymore when measured against something much bigger.

To answer OP's question, I'd show the critic TTGL or FLCL, not to prove a point, just to demonstrate how anime is viewed. They're fun cartoons that don't necessarily have to be exclusively for children. If spongebob had tits I'm %100 certain at least 1/10 of /a/ would be /co/.
There's always gonna be that one samefag elitist that's assured himself how phenomenal and deep EVA was, though.

>>>/wsr/

>>157545875
For what reason can it not? Back in the economic bubble japan had the freedom to animate whatever they wanted.
For what purpose was that freedom squandered when something truly meaningful could have been produced?

>>157545875
I think the person dismissing an entire medium is the real insecure one.

>>157543663
I would show him Green Blood,its western as fuck (literally).I bet hee would eat that shit right up.Alternatively i woukd just show him a Fukunoto manga.

>>157545445
>Critics contribute next to nothing nor do they wager anything when tearing another person's work apart.

Most people do not have the time or patience to watch every single movie or show that comes out simply so they can find something good 10% of the time. That's why critics exist.

>>157546018
What the fuck is wrong with my keyboard

lain goes in all fields

>>157543663
I would declare literary criticism to be immature garbage that desperately attempts to claim academic relevance by riding on the coattails of actual intellelectuals.

Then I'd watch Lucky Star with him.

>>157545875
I think FLCL is a better coming-of-age media than David Copperfield or Catcher in the Rye but that's just my opinion.

>>157545942
This isn't a request thread, it's a state of the medium thread. But you fags will ruin it anyway with your paranoia.

>>157543663
Nothing. I think critics of any kind are worthless.

>>157545774
He literally said "I can play devil's advocate here", so no fucking shit you idiot. I'm intentionally indulging his argument.

>>157546159
If Piracy didn't exist you wouldn't say that.

>>157545947
>>157545954
Try rereading my post. I didn't dismiss the entire medium, I said it can't be compared to classic literature because it literally can't.
Just look at my analogy again, Pluto can't be held up to Saturn but it could be held against a number of Saturn's moons, often proving bigger. I'd agree that anime most certainly can field things that aren't just mindless fun, but hoping to create a time-honored classic out of a medium of Asian cartoons is a pipe dream.

>>157543663
The cops to arrest him for breaking and entering as that is the only conceivable scenario in which this situation could occur.

>>157545784
So you're using the appeal to popularity?
Are you really that fucking stupid?

>>157545875
Why not?

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>>157543663
i think i could convert even Roger Ebert with this

>>157543663
He is right though. But it's not like I give a fuck.

>>157546216
>mediums of art are now planets

Your post doesn't have any evidence for why literature and film are inherently better than anime.

>>157546053
To shape public opinion so that instead of spending billions on marketing they can only spend millions and buy out some critics for the same revenue?

>>157545875
Eva is most certainly heralded as a critical masterpiece even by western critics. It's not just "Great for an anime", it's a great for any medium of literary art.

>>157545720
I like the character designs more, the animation is better and there's more of it, especially if we're talking about the last episodes of Eva and they're both action shows so cooler fights counts

>>157546216
The downsizing of anime seems like a bias, sort of how the west sees cartoons as inherently childish despite it being a medium of portraying a story.

Depicting a story through Japanese animation should in no way hamper the ability to produce a meaningful piece of art.

>>157543663
type on my phone
">implying critics aren't just pretentious viewers with a loud mouth" and show it to him

>>157546314
>cannot use an analogy when discussing literary impact

Sorry, I forgot /a/ was entirely made up of grade schoolers now, my mistake.

>>157546271
/thread.

>>157546403
I still don't see proof on why anime is an inherently inferior medium to literature and film.

>>157546403
Your analogy makes no sense
>anime is on a different scale because I said so
>>157546314
>pluto
>planet
This brings me back

>>157546235
You must critisize a critic before the critic can be accepted within a range of consensus.
This is how you separate a mass of popularity brought upon by artistic opiates from a positive acceptance from critics.

It's how things reach literature criteria.

>>157545784
>Not popularity, rationalized consensus.
So, popularity.
You're arguing popularity, only that now you're trying to veil it with "m-muh authorities" and "m-muh informed opinions", disregarding the fact that you still haven't told me what exactly is the "rationalized" part of this.
You're saying that all those artists that were defined as "crap" and we're not liked by the masses, were crap, since the "rationalized consensus" was to crap on those artists.
What about those that we don't really care about anyway, like Dadaism? Those were supported by some "great minds", but not only do we not care about it now besides it being a small history lesson, they were never really cared about even then.
>You take what people define as good and pick and probe at the possibilities as to why.
Even if you do that, you won't get to an objective criteria, you're still arguing popularity. You're arguing mass consensus, you're arguing marketing.
>There is typically an observable reason for why something might be popular but not necessary good, like artistic opiates.
Nice, so you're doing my own job, you're contradicting your previous point, so how is a "great work of art" "better" than the "artistic opiates"? What differentiates them? Clearly, they're both popular and meaningful, but how are they meaningful?
>But by putting a little bit of thought into it you can shed away those opiates and dig deeper into an art form that stimulates
So it's all dependent on my own personal experiences. We're back to square one, you can't give me a definitive answer.
SAO is a great work of art now (believe it or not, it's on my favorites so I'm not even being entirely ironic).
>The people with actual brains can see a little deeper past the opiates and whatever can place them into deep thought? Well that is the prime cut of beef that is the superior art-form.
So the art needs to make me think? In what manner, my dear anon? Do I win if I think of fucking 2D tits when I see them?

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>>157543663
Tell him I don't give a shit about his opinions, so he can fuck off and stop wasting my time.

>>157546053
Right, and you now have thousands of hundreds of them. No one critic holds any value unless they worked in the industry and produced something of note. Even then, they can be worth nothing (see Miyazaki who said a mentally insanely hack would be his successor)

Tell him he doesn't seem to understand

>>157546369
It is a bias, an unavoidable one if we're talking about critics. The question wasn't "do you think anime could create something with as much meaning as a classic," I would have answered yes and pointed to some close examples. The question was "what would you say to a critic shitting on anime," and from OP's post the critic was absolutely correct, by his and societies measure, a cartoon cannot be as important as anything created by the likes of Nietzsche, Dante, Dostoyevsky, and others.

>>157543663
I wouldn't show him anything because he's completely right.

>>157546525
There's no difference between a critic and a random guy
One guy just thinks he's better than other people

>>157543663
>A renowned critic of literature and film approaches you.
These people are unfun faggots.

I'm tired of looking for the deeper meaning in things, and I'm tired of people pretending you should give a shit about that. Sometimes you just want an action show. Sometimes you just want a cheesy mystery. Sometimes you just want a predictable thriller. Not every show needs to be Citizen Kane, and honestly it'd be a tragic end to creativity for EVERYTHING to be deep, layered, and have multiple interpretations out the ass.

Let these self-important fuckwits rot. Enjoy what you enjoy, and shitpost the stuff you don't to death. Hell, if this guy does come up to me I might as well scream that the shit he likes sucks until he leaves. Let's face it, this pretentious faggot would've thought he was better than me before even finding out I watch anime, and I'm not so insecure that it bothers me someone I don't know or care about thinks I'm a loser.

Living life like that is enjoyable.

The only thing that gets me is nowadays I can't tell if it's someone who clearly should not be bothering with the medium making threads like this, or, as early claims were made, stealth recommendation threads.

Forcing yourself to understand or "like" something can only lead you to hate it more. It's why I think I'd seriously kill a Horizon in the Middle of Nowhere fan, or at least its author..

>>157543663
*teleports behind him and slices off his dick*
heh, nothing personnel kid

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>>157543688
No! wait, uh....yeah!

>>157546568
SAO is one of your favorites?
Why? I'm actually curious

>>157543663
I tell him to go back
>>>/tv/
>>>/v/

>>157546315
>Every critic is a paid shill

This isn't the video game industry /v/. Highly regarded Film/TV/Literature critics aren't paid for opinions.

>>157546685
Argumentum ad populum was a mistake

>>157546685
That's assuming the strawman critic is bashing anime because it's a cartoon. Pretend for a moment that his criticism comes from an analysis that wouldn't have a bias against animation. He could still possibly come to his conclusion given what anime exists based on the same judgemental criteria as any other story-telling medium.

While the bias does exist, it's not an actually criticism. It's more of an insecurity via association. It's the idea that since for a certain period of time cartoons were made for children, you are therefore childish by liking it.

That can be a part of the strawman, but it definitely doesn't have to be.

>>157546216
>time-honored classic out of a medium of Asian cartoons is a pipe dream.
Lots of film critics think Spirited Away is the best animated film ever

>>157546476
That's because you are actually retarded, tell whoever's reading my posts off(because I refuse to believe anyone as dense as you is literate) to you to just type the next response himself, because it'll be infinitely better than whatever you'd have thought with.

I love anime, it is the only medium I consume. Modern movies and books are garbage that get lost somewhere between trying to appeal to a wide audience and trying to instill meaning. Anime is different from that, it knows exactly what it wants to be and sticks to it. 99% of anime is better than 99% of film and literature, but that 1% of literature and film is better than 100% of anime.

>>157546803
Is that why modern capeshit gets great reviews?
Or fast and furious movies?
Or Dan Brown books?
Highly regarded only means they have more sheeple caring about their inane opinions
If you're too dumb to think for yourself and have to rely on others to tell you what is good amd what isn't you should kill yourself

>>157546931
>super successful movie is received well by critics
What a fucking joke, I remember this happening with Avatar too
It's gonna change now anyway
Now that Kimi no na Wa beat it at the box office Spirited Away is gonna be forgotten

>>157546951
>99% of anime is better than 99% of film and literature
Dude, seriously, you're allowed to enjoy whatever you like just don't try and instill some poorly researched merit into it.

I know literature is the greatest medium out there for storytelling and theme development but I don't take an interest in it anyway because I just prefer visual storytelling.

>>157546951
90% of everything is shit

>>157546962
Funny, I don't remember Roger Ebert giving positive ratings for any of those things.

>>157543663
maybe, Berserk

>>157547084
>spends 5 posts yelling at me
>all on an imagined slight that I said anime wasn't good
>says to chill out when I clarify

I don't know what I expected in this thread, but it wasn't this.

>>157547084
>I know literature is the greatest medium out there for storytelling and theme development
Why?

>>157546962
Name one Capeshit or Fast and Furious movie that has ever been nominated for an Oscar.

>>157543663
>>157547174
on the other side, 99,999999% of anime and manga is actual trash, so nothing to disagree, actually

>>157546568
>m-muh authorities
People are different, but within a limited range. Smart, well read people can see things that other can't. They can pick up depth when others can't. Essentially, there are better people than you anon and they're smart enough to see through the bullshit.

There is a bubble here, you're trying to breach. You're trying to say there is no real way you can objectively prove something is good without popular consensus, which you know contradicts criticism when shitty things like SOA become extremely popular.

There really can't be any other way than consensus of like opinions on something, because whatever abstract array of chemical releases in the brain that lets people "feel, love and think about a piece" has a range of similarity in humanity because we're really not as diverse as you might think.

But what I'm saying is the better people, the people who actually require far more depth, far more thought to enjoy a work are better representative of humanity than you, who is satisfied with artistic opiate, who can't criticize worth a damn to see the flaws of your favorite thing.

There was never an objective way to prove the validity of an art piece, outside of determining how it affects the human mind on average.

>>157547239
Suicide Squad

>>157546768
I'm a simple man.
It's also my 4th favorite.
Because I was entertained by it. I found the "trapped in a game" to be a novel idea and I thought the struggles of the characters were meaningful.
I thought at the time that Kirito was slightly more different than other MCs (he still is to me, even after hundreds of anime), since I'm a simple man.
I thought the fights were pretty damn good and I always waited for more shounen goodness in Unlimited Star Burst and shit like that, shit that would hype me up and make my blood run faster, it was the fact that the fucking slashes were actually animated, and they had some power and speed behind them and they were flashy, since I'm a simple man.
I primarily watched so I can see Kirito kick some ass and leave everyone with their mouths open in awe, because I'm a simple man.
Then, as the simple man I am, I enjoyed seeing (some of the) girls (except fucking Lisbeth, fuck Lisbeth) doing their thing, as usual, my favorite was Silica the Loli and then came Kirito's waifu, Asuna.
I remember wanting to see what new boss will be fought in the anime, since I always am curious about art designs and boss gimmicks, since I'm a simple man, they delivered.
I also remember, as the simplest man I know, how the world building got me really interested, I really wanted to see how the floors looked like and what the gimmicks and mobs that were present there were doing and how they fought, they delivered.

That's literally it. It looked pretty, it gave me the adrenaline I needed and it made my dick hard when I wanted it to.

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>making a blanket statement on such an expansive medium
It doesn't matter what I bring to the table when they're already so entrenched in their opinion.

>>157547170
So he's an edgy faggot who tries making a name for himself by being the grumpy man who goes against popular trends?
Nice strategy, sounds like the average youtuber

>>157547209
Reading forces people to use their imagination.

>>157543663
Call him a faggot.

>>157547382
Maybe you should play the games.
The CG sequences are pretty well done at least,
I really like the music themes.

>>157547200
>>spends 5 posts yelling at me
Who the fuck are you talking about?
I was just skimming through the thread and decided to give my thoughts.

>>157547319
No it wasn't.

>>157543663
nothing

I can't convince an old white dude to like anime

>>157547382
They sound like pretty reasonable points
Still, I know you're not supposed to insult a man's waifu but SAO girls just don't do it for me
They're not moe enough, yet still not sexy enough, it's like a weird middle spot where they're good, but not great
And you forgot the music, that was good too

>>157543663
Angel's Egg
Serial Experiments lane

>>157543663
Elfen Lied

>>157547451
And also allows talentless hacks skimp out on description since "you're supposed to use your imagination bro"
And if you don't skimp out you might as well use a visual medium rather than spend several painfully long pages on describing inane crap

>>157547293
>People are different, but within a limited range. Smart, well read people can see things that other can't.
Ok.
>They can pick up depth when others can't.
Ok, so we'll keep on talking about things that clearly, me the inferior one that does not believe in the objectivity of artistic quality, can't see.

Essentially, an argument you can't prove and an argument that I myself cannot see.
>Essentially, there are better people than you anon and they're smart enough to see through the bullshit.
Nailed it.
>There is a bubble here, you're trying to breach.
Yes, because your bubble is bullshit, mostly.
You're trying to establish popularity as a system that can be used to objectively define quality, but you're also adding a gimmick so supposedly we should all be like "wtf, i love ad populums now."
>You're trying to say there is no real way you can objectively prove something is good without popular consensus, which you know contradicts criticism when shitty things like SOA become extremely popular.
No, actually, you said that. Unless I've misinterpreted it and you actually said that what most "higher minds" (which I'm not sure how you define) believe to be good is actually good, so it has to be popular with the "elite".
>There really can't be any other way than consensus of like opinions on something
First you say popularity isn't the answer, now you're saying popularity is the answer.
> because whatever abstract array of chemical releases in the brain that lets people "feel, love and think about a piece" has a range of similarity in humanity because we're really not as diverse as you might think.
What do we do with those artistic pieces that try to release the "abstract array of chemicals" that tell you to get scared shitless or tell you to be disgusted?
>There was never an objective way to prove the validity of an art piece, outside of determining how it affects the human mind on average.
Ok, so there is no objective way to define the quality of an art piece.

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>>157547505

>>157543663
Nothing since he's right, I'll just invite him to fap at eromanga sensei.

>>157547722
>best makeup

Ah, the next pulp fiction

>>157547497
I want to at some point. It's mostly related to me not having any time to get my PS Vita and PSP running.
>>157547551
You're actually right, I did forget the music and I even still listen to some pieces after all those years. The way I do define "good" music though is if I am able to listen continuously to the piece without having the Anime running.
For that matter, "Innocence" and "Crossing Field" did it for me, while Ignite was crap.
The only OST I was able to get into was "False King", while the most popular "Swordland" is something I can't get into but I enjoyed immensely during the show itself.

The only one that still "does it for me" is Asuna, I guess and Suguha. Since Silica stopped being relevant.

>>157543663
I would remind him that 98% of all literary classics throughout history were written as 'pop-culture drivel' with mass appeal for the lowest common denominator of their society at the time. Beowulf? 8th century superhero comics. Chaucer? Literally the equivalent of an ecchi comedy manga. Shakespeare? Filled to the brim with fart, dick and 'yo momma' jokes. The idea of separating elitist 'high art' from the rest as if it's somehow superior or more meaningful is a 20th century invention, and hopefully one that dies soon along with the rest of that century.
I'd also let him know that 500 years from now the films that will be remembered as great masterpieces of late 20th/early 21st century will be the works of men like Christopher Nolan and James Cameron, alongside franchises like Star Wars and the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Not the highbrow oh-so-deep or arthouse films that critics rave about today.

>>157547670
It's popularity within the margin of a select group of intellectuals whom through comparison of response towards idea are mapping the collective human idea of quality.

Take a human, push it towards peak performance, take note of its views. Do this for a large amount of the elite and you'll get a clearer idea.

If the bases of appeal is rooted in the objective system of the human brain you'll reach a clearer conclusion this way.

>>157543663
i'd say he's right.

the point of anime is to be fun. that's it. fun sells. nothing more.

>>157548158
So you're still talking popularity but now you're using some "select elite minds" to pick which one is the "correct" popularity.
Well, I think I'm done here. You've been reduced to this.

>>157543663
Any slice of life. Show him how Anime has transcended his primitive notions of plot.

>>157548179
I bet you enjoy capeshit

>>157547897
>ignite was crap
I do like sinon, even if she's asuna v2 for that sawashiro'voice

>>157547382
I wouldn't fault someone for saying that they were really entertained by SAO, but I would however certainly fault them for saying "SAO is a great work of art" like you said earlier.

There is a difference between things that are simply entertaining and things that are good. Something can be both good and personally entertaining, but they're not automatically one in the same. People are completely capable of realizing their own personal biases and making a distinction between the two. If you find that the 10 anime you think are the best of all time are all SoL CGDCT shows, it should ring some bells that you're confusing things that you like with things that you think everyone should like.

Being "Good" means it's worthy of admiration. The only thing that SAO accomplishes in that regard is being one of the first series to really truly popularize the Isenkai genre, which makes it influential, but even then it wasn't the first Isenkai anime. Just the first blockbuster Isenkai.

>>157548379
Um, nothing about my argument has changed, I just had to keep simplifying it for you because didn't seem to understand.

Yes, if smarter people with the ability to perceive the depth of a work can independently form similar or identical conclusions about a piece then their consensus is the more valuable consensus.

It's just like how democracy stopped working once people revoked the criteria and let everyone vote.

>>157548500
First of all it's isekai
Second of all not him but why should I give a shit?
What I like is what I consider the best
I loved Keijo and it's one if my favorite series because it was fucki g exciting and made md laugh a lot

>>157547722
Now you're just being a semantic little shit. I was obviously talking about best picture.

>>157548636
No you weren't

>>157548500
>but I would however certainly fault them for saying "SAO is a great work of art" like you said earlier.
It was meant to be a joke, even if I did enjoy it greatly, I don't like using words like "great work of art" anymore.
I simply don't see the point in it, my personal enjoyment comes first.
When I look at the "great works of art" that we deem "great" nowadays, I don't really feel anything that elevates me like supposedly, it should do.

And this goes for quite a bit of media.
>There is a difference between things that are simply entertaining and things that are good.
The issue is none of you can make the differentiation objectively.
>People are completely capable of realizing their own personal biases and making a distinction between the two.
Maybe I'm not, you can always provide an argument for that sake.
>it should ring some bells that you're confusing things that you like with things that you think everyone should like.
So popularity defines quality in the end.
>Being "Good" means it's worthy of admiration. The only thing that SAO accomplishes in that regard is being one of the first series to really truly popularize the Isenkai genre, which makes it influential, but even then it wasn't the first Isenkai anime. Just the first blockbuster Isenkai.
Somehow, being the "first" or "the original" matters in any way when your name doesn't even appear on the lips of anyone, but even if it does, does that have any meaning when you're clearly saying that popularity doesn't matter and then say it does?
I'm not even sure any of you are serious anyway, you keep on rocking back and forth.
>>157548604
Their consensus is not an objective criteria to define the quality of art, as I said, this "consensus" will change in time and has done so several times for several "great works of art".

>>157548404
I don't know, Sinon's a nice girl and all, but I could never get into her. I think it was because I knew at some point she'll become irrelevant too.

I guess that's one of the flaws SAO has for me. It can't keep up with the characters except for Kirito, which is the MC.

>>157548766
It only changes when the idea is enhanced and improved upon. Obviously nobody is born knowing exactly what will insight the brain into determining what is good, we have to keep throwing shots in the dark to reach a greater idea. That is what I meant by the blind mapping of quality that emerges through the criticism of the intellectual elite.

>>157546685
>Nietzsche
>Important
Philosophers contribute fuck all. Any edgy high schooler can do what they do.

>>157548841
>It can't keep up with the characters except for Kirito
Boy, if that Alicization pasta spoiler is true you're in for a treat if you only care about him if he's still himself
Guess I'm a bit like you as I never bothered to actually costumize my character in SAO games, as the story revolves around him almost completely.

>>157548609
>Second of all not him but why should I give a shit?

If you don't see a problem in indulging in willful blatant ignorance, then I can't really convince you why you shouldn't because that requires appealing to most people's very basic desire to not want to be stupid.

>>157549221
Why is it willful ignorance?

>>157549012
So you can never truly define "good", you can always just say "This is better.", but even then, you have to rely on criteria that you yourself cannot define made by people that you are not sure are actually capable because you cannot measure their capabilities anyway, and you'd still rely on popular consensus, but no wait, it'll be the consensus of the many but handpicked by the few.
>>157549160
Oh? That sounds like a nice twist. I did say that one of these days I should start reading SAO. But I thought that maybe I should see it "end", and then start it.
I hate having to wait for updates after all.
Or wait, is Alicization going to be animated soon? Is it the movie?
>Guess I'm a bit like you as I never bothered to actually costumize my character in SAO games, as the story revolves around him almost completely.
If my character actually has a name canonically, I tend to use that. I'm obsessive about it and I do it with all the games I can, e.g. Devil Survivor (Kazuya Minegishi is his name, I don't remember if it fit though).

I think I like seeing other people's stories rather than self-inserting myself, at least most of the times.

>>157548766
>The issue is none of you can make the differentiation objectively
People can and should try to though. You can generally understand why people enjoy something even you didn't enjoy it if you put effort in doing so. Then the question you should ask, "I now know why people enjoy this, but is this a good reason to enjoy something?"

If the answer is yes, than you're saying it's good. If the answer is no, then it's not. That can obviously change later, but you just made a real critical analysis instead of "I liked this so it's good" or "I didn't like this so it's bad".

Most critically acclaimed works are critically acclaimed precisely because they require more thought and effort in understanding why they're good instead of just passively enabling your base instincts.

>>157549495
The movie is an original story.
Based on some earlier screens is a sort of "prequel" to Alicization. And they did show "SAO will be back" at the end, so I guess is going to be soon.
Well, you should start reading Progressive at least , it's a pretty nice coverage of the earlier floors in SAO
If only they would project it here subbed

>>157549281
Because it means you think your opinions are never going to change and are 100% correct, and anyone who doesn't agree with you can't possibly be correct. Intelligent people tend to underestimate their own intelligence, while dumb people do the opposite.

This is a completely documented phenomenon as well that people when they first delve in to a subject they're unfamiliar with immediately begin to think they understand everything, but the more and more they actually learn about it start to think they know less than they really do.

>>157549863
I meant "Ordinal Scale". So that's not Alicization?
I'm going to read it whole, in order, from the beginning if I'll start it. It'll take me quite a bit of time, but hey, there's really no point in reading it if I can't remember the previous plot points that well.
>>157549822
>People can and should try to though.
You can try but you won't get an objective answer, which is the issue here.
>"I now know why people enjoy this, but is this a good reason to enjoy something?"
>a good reason to enjoy something
This is arbitrary.
>but you just made a real critical analysis instead of "I liked this so it's good" or "I didn't like this so it's bad".
You can think of the reasons as much as you like, it won't change that they're not objective in the slightest.
>Most critically acclaimed works are critically acclaimed precisely because they require more thought and effort in understanding why they're good instead of just passively enabling your base instincts.
Or they're paid shills, like for the new Ghostbusters e.g. see Rotten Tomatoes.
"Critically acclaimed" has no meaning in art, I'll keep on claiming this until you provide me the objective criteria to properly define "quality" in art, after all, the burden of proof is on you guys.
Since now you're also trying to arbitrarily say that "complexity" suddenly makes a piece of art "better" or of "quality", I wonder if you can tell me why exactly does it matter if I use a thesaurus and write an entire book around a single idea instead of a few phrases to say the same thing?
>>157550369
>Intelligent people tend to underestimate their own intelligence, while dumb people do the opposite.
Funnily enough, Dunning-Kruger gives different results based on location, so there you go.

>>157550369
My opinions may change, but certainly not based on someone else's opinion
My opinions are my own, I don't say they're right, they're mine and they're the most important thing to me
I know I don't know much, nobody knows much, which is why I don't care much for opinions other people have

>>157543663
I don't show him anything. He can have his retarded opinion all to himself. In fact, the less "critics" that are in the anime community, the better. Besides, it doesn't matter how good an anime is; someone won't change their opinion on something if they're so autistic that they say an entire form of media is garbage.

>>157550589
Yup, Ordinal Scale is the movie, original story by Kawahara himself. Something about AR. They throw in some references and plot points for Alicization.

>>157550717
Fucking hell, fine, I'll read the LNs. Thanks.

>>157549495
>So you can never truly define "good"
Not in the way you'd want it, again the closest thing to what would define good would be whatever set of ideas generates a positive reaction in the brain. People of peak mental performance who are able to deeply analyze a story are harder to appease because they naturally would have a higher criteria. More things that could go wrong and spoil this climax of neuron release that would accompany the idea of good.

Because these people can actually think at a higher level, their consensus matters more.
>You can not measure their capabilities anyway
Ah, I guess we're all equal then? Fuck off Marxist.

I'd show him the TRUE MEANING OF LOVE

>>157550994
>Not in the way you'd want it, again the closest thing to what would define good would be whatever set of ideas generates a positive reaction in the brain.
Popularity.
>People of peak mental performance who are able to deeply analyze a story are harder to appease because they naturally would have a higher criteria.
Elitism.
>Ah, I guess we're all equal then? Fuck off Marxist.
No, we're clearly not, but do you have a system that can measure their capabilities objectively? No? Fuck off then, my boy.

>>157551199
>>157551199
>Elitism is bad
>People who raise the standards of human capability are bad
M'kay
>But do you have a system
IQ

Kemono friends

>>157550589
Let me just stop you right now. The way you are trying to break down posts like

>this
this
>this
this
>this
this

Is part of the problem with why you're having trouble understanding the point of literary analysis. You are completely missing to central arguments in people's posts by isolating random sentences out of context, and yourself creating an incoherent mess of semantic arguments that break down away from the primary point.

You can uselessly nitpick literally anything like this in a neverending search to find perfection that doesn't exist. The world isn't black and white. It's is filled with layers and layers of grey areas. This is true with science, art, politics, and basically everything. If you're looking for perfect objective opinions, they don't exist.

>>157551343
>IQ
Come back to me when it becomes accurate enough for it to matter. It must also be relevant to our subject. Is everyone capable of "criticizing" art as long as they have high IQ? Would Stephen Hawking tell me if Guilty Crown is a masterpiece or if it's shit?
>>157551505
>You are completely missing to central arguments in people's posts
Prove it.
>and yourself creating an incoherent mess of semantic arguments
If you can't keep up with what is going on, then it's probably your lack of vocabulary.
>that break down away from the primary point.
Are they or not strawmen? Can you point them out?
>You can uselessly nitpick literally anything like this in a neverending search to find perfection that doesn't exist.
If we're talking about art, I agree, there's no "perfection"/"objectivity" when it comes to it. Since I'm sure you're referring to that, after all, you'd never change the subject, you're just using a synonym, somehow.
>The world isn't black and white.
Parts of it are. E.g. dichotomies.
>It's is filled with layers and layers of grey areas.
Yes, certainly, but that doesn't excuse the lack of even a pinch of objective criteria to define the quality of art. If we're talking spectrums, you're going to have a better time giving me all those examples, right? All I've seen being posted are some flawed methodologies that don't seem to have yielded any results, no one tried them and no one seems to have any interest in doing that anyway, since you're relying on "ifs" and "maybes".

To the point that I now have to really question all those "great works of art" now.

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>>157543663
My collection of smug.

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>>157551804
>IQ doesn't matter
Guy who says IQ doesn't matter; utilizes critical theory to dismiss the importance of artistic quality. I think I know what we have here.

>What would you show him to prove him wrong?
Bananya

>>157551804
>Prove it

What was the central argument of my post then?

>>157552172
IQ only measures the ability a person has in solving IQ tests

Why is Naru here?

>>157552172
You didn't even read what I said. Did I say IQ is not important? No, clearly, intelligence matters, but IQ can't properly quantify it, so I'm telling you that maybe you'll have an argument once we'll get better at that.

But then you'd have to prove that somehow, someone with higher IQ necessarily is skilled in criticizing artistic works... That's harder to do, my lad.
>>157552250
You're asking me to write your argument down.
If I committed a strawman, you'd be able to point it out immediately.

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>>157551804
>this entire fucking post
You're a pseudo-intellectual retard and you should kill yourself.

>>157552345
>Did I say IQ is not important
You claimed it was inaccurate therefore refuting it.
>It can't properly quantify it
You're denouncing it

>But then you'd have to prove critics have higher IQ.
Shouldn't be too hard to get a statistic going.

>>157552345
I'm asking you to summarize what I was arguing in that post in a way that is more concise to the point.

>>157552487
>You claimed it was inaccurate therefore refuting it.
Yes, and? You do understand that we always drop theories if they don't work, right? That does not mean they're not important though.
>Shouldn't be too hard to get a statistic going.
Then do so.
>>157552483
I'm really hurt.

>>157543663

Given that ANY media can be 'read into' in what ever manner you want, why does anyone's opinion even matter? Unless you've got express written notes written DURING the process, anything you think the author intended can be purely what ever the critic thinks the author is saying and not what the author intended.

Thus most critical analysis is contrived shit pulled out the critics (analyzers) ass.

I hate this mostly because of the way we were taught literary analysis during school, using texts hundreds of years old, so our own experiences and outlooks are so fucking different to the author we can never truly connect, then having the teachers basically turn around and give you marks so long as you pulled shit out of your ass and hit the word limit.

>>157552612
We utilize theories in argument until they're disprove, otherwise you'd once again be hitting the nihilistic bedrock every time.

>Then do so
Oh yeah I'll get right on it and start probing all the known critics with IQ tests. When I said easy I meant for the kind of groups with the ability to collect information for statistics, not that it would be easy for me to do it.

>>157552345
Or here is a better idea, summarize your own post here >>157551804, just the part you're quoting from me and not that other guy, and tell me exactly what you're actually trying to argue. What is the central argument of your post?

>>157552689
Yup
Case in point Eva
Everyone had their own fancy theories about the judeo-christian symbolism and then Anno just says it simply looked coolso why not put it in
It's really nice to see pretentious pompous fools getting blown the fuck out hard, too bad we can't talk to dead writers and have them do so

>>157552609
Anon, you want me to summarize 600 characters? What's the point in doing that?
>>157552771
How is that relevant to what I said? IQ is important because it's one step towards being able to determine people's intellectual abilities.
That it sucks at doing that does not mean that it's not a step.
>>157552790
Why would I summarize my own fucking post?

>>157552771
So you're using a mix of appeal to popularity and appeal to authority to justify yourself?
>these smart guys said so, it must be right
Are you gonna keep behaving like a child for long?

>>157552848
Everybody knew they were meaningless, eva is still deep, too deep for you.

>>157552790
Why don't you summarize "The sky is blue.", anon?
You must be retarded enough to do that. Can you make it easier to read?

Instead of bickering as autists over the notion of certain media being better than others, let's talk about something positive instead.
>favorite literary work
>favorite manga/anime/ln

Either/Or
Sora no Woto

>>157552986
>n-not a rec thread guise

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Like, here's a fucking summary, anon.

>>157552986
Shinmai Maou no Testament.
You into lewd shit but not into hentai? Well, this is borderline, so have fun.

>>157553036
My post isn't of a low caliber of Naruto, seasonal shit, or King, so why the Hell would you think I'd be trolling for recommendations.

>>157552893
>Anon, you want me to summarize 600 characters?
>Why would I summarize my own fucking post

Why not? Tell exactly why you can't summarize them.

>>157553129
because you are a faggot.

>>157553142
It's not that I can't, it's just that it's pointless, Anon.
>Prove it.
Prove it.
>If you can't keep up with what is going on, then it's probably your lack of vocabulary.
You lack vocabulary.
>Are they or not strawmen? Can you point them out?
Where the strawmen at?
>If we're talking about art, I agree, there's no "perfection"/"objectivity" when it comes to it. Since I'm sure you're referring to that, after all, you'd never change the subject, you're just using a synonym, somehow.
There is no meaningful objectivity in art.
>Parts of it are. E.g. dichotomies.
Black and white = dichotomies. They exist.
>Yes, certainly, but that doesn't excuse the lack of even a pinch of objective criteria to define the quality of art. If we're talking spectrums, you're going to have a better time giving me all those examples, right? All I've seen being posted are some flawed methodologies that don't seem to have yielded any results, no one tried them and no one seems to have any interest in doing that anyway, since you're relying on "ifs" and "maybes".
Your arguments are shit.

>>157546271
>even Roger Ebert
Ebert has been on record praising anime like GitS and Perfect Blue

>>157543762
But you don't produce anything either, so your judgement of the critic is equally worthless.

>>157553243
It's exactly because I produce nothing, that I know my worthlessness and the worthlessness of those similar to me, AKA the critics.

>>157543663
I don't, i just walk away without giving a shit.
Critics are elitists. They just called themselves critics so they can throw and say shit about things they don't like with minimal backlash.
And i'm probably right to think that they live unfun lives.
>inb4 "But anon watching anime and reading manga/novels aren't fun"
To each their own.

>>157543663
People that use a vocabulary that weak and cliché don't deserve to be corrected

>>157543663
Nothing. Aside from hiding my powerlevel, I don't need to justify my preferences to someone whose career revolves around taking fiction far too seriously, let alone to one who accosts random people on the street.

>>157546053
Most people also just watch whatever is the new trendy movie or tv. They don't need a critic to tell about the new season of Game of Thrones and they also aren't going to stop watching the news Transformers just because critics say it's shit.

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OPM is pretty good for normies. don't need to know much about japanese culture, and it panders to the western sensibilities of superheros.

>>157544816
That's on you to find your own basis instead of asking others to spoonfeed you. There are still good, interesting shows, but retards like you won't know it because you're too busy paying attention to other retards.
> I've noticed too many people use it as a means to vent their sexual frustrations
Case in point. In fact, I've noticed too many people like you tend to use that as a defense because it turns out you only dip in the shallow pool and can't be arsed to find the deep end.

Fuck off to /wsr/ instead.

>>157543663
I am an olfag and I had dealt numerous times with this kind of shit.
You need to pay attention if the person asking you this is just trolling or if he / she is trying to convey a legitimate point around.
If its just trolling, I dont waste my breath.
If its not trolling and its somewhat intelligent, argue with them on the quality of the mass of works of the medium he / she is comparing anime against. Every medium have shit examples.
If they are truly interested on engaging a debate, ask how much anime they know, much of the time they dont know shit, or pretend they know shit based on poor quality / cherrypicked examples, and you need to povide counterexamples of proven quality, if you cant find the perfect jewel then show them works that excel on themes, animation quality, sounstrack. If you have an avobe average knowledge you can produce evidence that there are at least some anime series and OVAS that deal with themes not suitable for kids, or at least not for pre-teens.

But if you try to defend Naruto / haruhi / SAO or other meme shows, you lose even before starting

>>157543663
Hello! It seems that you assume that works posess inherent worth, which is determined by certain components of it. Can't help but notice a couple issues with your arguement: first of all, I thought we ditched the notion of objective worth long time ago, and second, which is sort of problematic, your western-centric approach to dissecting a whole. Those two kind of come at odds with each other - you imply a fixed structure within the gestalt of the work, i.e. themes, writing, plot, and such implication already elucidates your bias. Don't you think that we, as any anthropologist would reccomend, study the work in the context of culture which produced it? Japan certainly would view your constructions as artificial, as they are much more focused on the gestalt of the work and on its concept. In that case, Fausts and Hamlets and Gravity's Rainbows suddenly pale in comparison to, say, FLCL.

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>>157543663
Shinsekai yori or LOGH. Literally critic tier

>>157552895
Intelligence is a major factor in ones ability to critically think. How can you expect to be able to analyze anything without the ability to explore complex concepts?

I think your problem is your unable to view humanity as a species. We're still at a primordial level driven by trace behaviors that are genetically determined, not environmental. What I'm saying is, is there is some sort of fundamental aspect of the human mind that is mostly the same in all of us just as we can determine the behaviors that are supposed to be endemic to any other species.

Determining that layout in how it exaggerates itself through are intellect is the difficulty.

Essentially, You don't enjoy the color blue because of any personal subjective taste, you like it because your brain has been wired to associate it with good weather conditions because any behavior response to that color was naturally selected for due to the survival of species that displayed behaviors for it we'd call "positive" which are only safe to utilize in ideal conditions.

>>157553912
Pretty sure japan threw in the towel and admitted western culture was superior centuries ago.

>>157553854
>But if you try to defend Naruto / haruhi / SAO or other meme shows, you lose even before starting

I'd really like to hear your criticism of these shows, I can go on for days in detail as to why I hate similar shonen like Fairy Tail and it mostly pertains to writing.

Is there even a point in reading books of "real literary worth"? What benefits does it really bring to my life?
As far as I can tell the only change any of those "deep" stories can do is to convince me to kill myself or other people. Why should I engage in such potentially psychologically harmful behavior when anime, fantasy, and sci-fi with engaging but not existentially depressing stories provide me entertainment and self-contentment?

>>157554917
>They're all depressing
Not the case, they're infamous for their ability to provoke thought and change views. Just because many of them highlight the negative aspects of man doesn't mean they're all like that.

>>157554917
subhuman.

>>157555017
>provoke thought and change views
Why not just get a self-help book or book on philosophy? Why not just read a plot summary for the book in question?
Putting "thought" exclusively in a story is an easy way to get dreadfully misinterpreted. If you're going to put that in writing then put it in a textbook.

>>157555106
>subhuman
EZ way to ignore all points. If you think you're superior, come at me with real arguments.

>>157555213
you are in fact inferior to me.

>>157555177
Because stories are human nature anon.

>>157555213
He is right, you are not worth engaging into

>>157543663
All of Goro Taniguchi's works are pretty kino desu

>>157555241
Literary tradition is a relic of when humans had no treatment for ADHD, and information could not be passed down unless the receiver was distracted with a story.
The modern world doesn't need stories to convey truth and philosophy anymore.

>>157555262
Then don't.

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>>157555333

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>>157554917
>brainlets

For anime, something like Evangelion, FLCL ,Lain and maybe Cowboy Bebop.

For manga, Lone Wolf and Cub, it's already a litterary masterpiece

>>157543762
Socrates, the father of philosophy, spent his life telling people they aren't living their lives correctly.

>>157554917
>benefits
That's a shitty utilitarian approach. "Real" books teach you how to have fun through alternative methods, and provide that fun.

>>157543663
Give him the good ol' trap hand job

>>157555621
>shitty utilitarian
You don't shit talk my waifu

I'll concede that point but IMO most books of literary value have to go off on pointless and easy to misinterpret (and sometimes highly obscure) tangents for the sake of entertainment, because novels have to be interesting enough to sell some copies to not be lost to history. Textbooks are objectively more clear than allegories, and they are designed live or die on the true value of their philosophical content.

>>157554917
>Is there even a point in reading books of "real literary worth"?
Curiosity? You'll eventually get bored of the "anime, fantasy, and sci-fi" so trying something different, outside of your safe zone might be a fun and refreshing experience.

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>>157543663
>Renowned critic
You know what they say about opinions and assholes, right? Also, pic related.

>>157555893
Like Pottery? At least with that I can get real material gain, instead of nagging existential dread.

>>157554917
>As far as I can tell the only change any of those "deep" stories can do is to convince me to kill myself or other people
How do you know that?
In the first part of your post you ask why you should engage with literature which implies that you haven't engaged with literature. Then you go on to say that the reason why you haven't engaged with literature is that it will make you depressed and want to kill people. There is no way you could know this if you haven't actually engaged with literature, you're avoiding literature based on what you think may happen if you read it.

>>157556069
Why are you so against the idea reading something that isn't fiction?

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>>157554917
>As far as I can tell the only change any of those "deep" stories can do is to convince me to kill myself or other people

How did you reach this conclusion?

>>157555865
Good book is like a good D&D campaign. It allows for freedom of interpretation within reasonable constraints. They should be just vague enough that you get some fuel for thoughts of your own without spoonfeeding.

I can't stand didactic literature (or any work, for that matter) - be it Atlas Shrugged or Anohana - and despise meandering texts without any solid ground - your Anti-oedipuses and the kind. But there's ton of middle ground that doesn't tell you how to feel or think and yet offers plenty seeds from which thoughts and feelings may grow. Tangents are a bad sign, like any instance of overpowering authorial voice.

Basically go on /lit/ and check past beginner charts. There are a plenty of smart works that kind of make their inherent worth obvious without being stealth-philosophical textbooks.

>>157556470
I'm not, I read nonfiction deeply. I was specifically discussing books of "real literary worth". "Literary" implying fiction.

>>157543663

The pleasure of being cummed inside.

Let's see him shittalk with heart-shaped eyes now.

>>157543663
>A renowned critic of literature and film approaches you
>I tell him his kike opinions on Japan mean nothing and that he can fuck off to the nearest oven

>>157544140
This was a good read.

>>157543663
I agree with him, turn 360°, and walk away.

i would show him the door

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Show him love live
Now that is quality

>>157560257
That's ironic considering the damage post-modernism has done to modern art.

>>157543663
Tell him to lurk for 2 years before posting.

>>157543663
Nothing. He's completely right.

To be able to argue merits of artistic works one must first not only have a strong understanding of the medium he is discussing but of culture in general and its history, because culture is what gives birth to art which gives birt to culture. To argue one while ignoring the other is to have no understanding of the former in the first place. In such cases one cannot formulate sound, coherent arguments without resorting to absolute subjectivism and egocentric relativism. The problem with making a thread of this nature on /a/ is that the majority of /a/ are completely uncultured. They have absolutely no undertsanding of disciplines of art other than their center of obsession, and they're completely miopic when it comes to cultures that formed the world they live in along with how they developed, only being aware of the microcosm of Japanese otaku culture, some of which not even being aware of its history either. To approach one of these brainlets and try provoke a discussion of art is the definition of insanity.

Art is relative, it's good to me if I am entertained by it and bad to me if it's boring. That's it. No nothing objectively matters, fuck off you stupid fucking normalfags.

Art is just a circlejerking word for a small group of people to justify why unpopular stuff they liked wasn't selling like hotcakes.

>>157564991
>"I've been on this board for two years like you asked and have seen nothing but people talk about their desire to have sex with characters from a given series. What were you expecting me to learn from this?"

I tell him and this thread to fuck off back to redit.

>>157543663
Ask him if he regrets giving Gurl Ghostbusters a 10/10 to avoid twitter backlash.

>>157543663
I would show him this thread and insist that he enriches your tastes by fucking you right in the ass.

>>157564658
>Art is relative
Wrong
>No nothing objectively matters, fuck off stupid normalfag
Post Modernism is the new normalfaggotry. Enjoy your shallow existence.

>>157543663
I'd say sure, and then go back to watching it. It may be infantile trash to him, but it's enough to keep me from getting too bored, so it fulfils the criteria that I look for

>>157565124
Nice relative opinion.

>>157543663
Probably something fairly basic.
Manga: Yotsuba
Anime: Usagi Drop

>>157565124
Normalfags only care about virtue signaling and thinking that communism = free shit. They don't have even the slightest grasp of post modernism. Either way, enjoying something for its entertainment value isn't post modernism.

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>>157565179
Enjoy the fruits of your mindset then.

>>157565251
I don't give a shit what other people do with a similar mindset to mine, although I doubt you have the slightest comprehension of what my mindset actually is. And besides, ugly fucking cubes aren't any better than that, at least that looks interesting.

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>>157543663
He's right though. Anime and manga is trash.

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>>157565337
It's still better than western capeshit at least. Nothing I've seen in manga has ever reached the levels of retarded the west has presented.

>>157543663
I give him a copy of redline, and a 6pack of some bright beer that slides down your throat. He clearly missed the memo about what fun is.

>>157543688
Can i see too?

>>157543663
Patlabor: The Mobile Police: The Movie: 2 (1993)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8WX4HJ318

>>157543663
Monogatari

>>157543663
Tell him that he has shit taste

>>157543663
>Implying that such a person would give a shit about what I would have to say.

>>157546318
In what way? All the symbolism is hamfisted and literally only there for aesthetic value.
It has good writing, for TV, and a realistic portrayal of characters, but literary art? Please

>>157548139
>works of men like Christopher Nolan and James Cameron, alongside franchises like Star Wars and the Marvel Cinematic Universe

You almost got me :^)))

>>157568507
Just because something is therefor aesthetic value doesn't make it meaningless if it's good at that

>>157553242
And? Ebert was a self-admitted pleb.

>>157568553
touchëę

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>>157543663
*Unsheats Katana*
>So be it...

>>157543688
FPBP

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>>157568528
>implying the collective achiements of anime throughout all of its history even come close to the genius of the Dark Knight Rises plane scene

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>>157543663
The anime edition of Takehiko Fukunaga's novel "Shi no shima" when?

>>157568793
Just because no anime comes close to the absolute pinnacle of human achievement doesn't make the medium shit
Every other medium outside of Nolan movies would be shit as well

>>157568924
Reading through Karamazov Brothers and I'm pretty much convinced no anime can do tragic romance OR moe as well as Lise.

>>157565251
>Lou Ruvo Centre for Brain Health
The only problem is that the architect wasn't the first patient.

>>157568793
>>157568991
t. Plebius minimus

You both totally missed the point. Nolan films are not very good at all, and the best anime MAYBE reach that level

Face it, the """""medium""""" is trash

>>157543762
That's actually untrue, art critics of Beaudelaire are part of his most interesting works. A critic is a production, a creation, it just use another creation as a raw material to bloom.

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>>157570619
>Nolan films are not very good at all
For you

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>>157543663
I'd show him Kino no Tabi, it's probably a good way to convert normal fags.

>>157551485
When will this Meme die?

>>157543663
Nothing. I'd reply that he's right, but at least, unlike humanity's greatest works, some manga and anime aren't boring.

Anyone else notice that /a/ doesn't care much for anime made before at least the 90s?

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>>157543663

YKK.

>>157543663
My smug face as I whisper "that's just like, your opinion, man" and walk away backwards

>>157543663
My dick. Then I'd tell him to suck it.

Fucking humanities majors.

>>157543762
This is actually not true. There's plenty of worthwhile critics out there with interesting things to say.

It's just that to most people a critic is the guy that posts movie reviews in their saturday newspaper.

>>157544816
This again.

It's just selection bias. Those earlier eras had a similar distribution of great to shit anime, but only the great anime still get talked about. There was also a lot less anime out there in general, so we live in an objectively better time right now.

Of course if you're complaining that the stuff you like isn't getting made anymore then fair enough, some genres (like mecha and scifi) are essentially dead now.

>>157543663
His argument is shit and is based on selection bias. He's comparing the collective output of the entire world, over a span of thousands of years, in all media to things made in the last 50 or so years in one country in one medium. Of if you take the average of humanity's greatest and compare it to the average anime the former is gonna win out.

If his point is that literally all anime is garbage then he's just a newfag who hasn't seen a lot of anime.

>>157543663
>a-animeh ? w-what is that ?

That easy. No one can ever find out that i watch anime.

>>157543663
Ghost in the shell or perfect blue are probably the best films to actually critique

>>157546053
>Most people do not have the time or patience
There is a scientific term to describe those people and you should use it: Retards who ruin everything.