>Saber is supposed to have Rank A instinct >She is a servant

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classic

But it did put him on servant level

Instinct isn't Clairvoyance.

>>157041324
>mom I posted it again!

Saber is pretty much a jobber in FSN, she's built up to be amazing and awesome but she mostly loses so the reader knows how dangerous the villains are.

>Kuzuki is already formidable as a regular human
>Gets buffed through some really good magic

Isn't this side of the nasu verse supposed show humans at the top of the food chain? Why is it a shock that some humans can fight servants when servants were once humans capable of some crazy shit?

http://www.strawpoll.me/12939906/

>>157042648
There is never a time when Caster is seen as an unstoppable villain, like Gil, Berserker, the Shadow, or even Assassin on the high ground. I see her as having the potential but never reaching it. She has it just as bad as Lancer but none of the glory.

>>157044397
This same franchise makes (or at least used to make) a big deal about how heroes can't be born in the modern world.

>>157044806
At her peak she wrangled together a team of 4 servants+ Kuzuki, which in theory could steamroll everyone in any scenario in the franchise (cept whatever ridiculous shit GO pulls next), but it fell apart quickly. Assassin doesn't care about her and can't leave the gate, Saber was defiant the whole way through, and Archer was plotting against her the whole time.

>>157044397
Because before this, the narration had told us that Servants were an existence that Masters could never reach/compare to. F/SN breaks this point multiple times. F/Z didn't once.

>>157045115
Zecchan: "Could Kerry or Kirei in their prime have taken on Servants?"

Iri: "they could, depending on their methods"

This is partially bullshit, mind you, since you need an attack capable of physically harming them. See Kirei pinning Assassin to a tree with enchanted black keys. Did absolutely no damage. He could still potentially kill a Servant if he pumped enough command spells into a single attack but Kerry has zero way of inflicting damage.

Weren't her stats nerfed pretty bad when Shirou was her master.

>>157045880
They were still Cs and Bs in everything on top of things like instinct, charisma and mana burst being A rank, imo Shirou Saber is pretty average maybe above it if she whips out Excalibur(Can rip Herc to shreds in a single burst) if she whipped out Excalibur she would've mangled Kuzuki and by proxy Caster because her Master died.

>>157046070
That's the other half of it; Saber's mana is capped so Excalibur is a last resort. Like she couldn't use it on Berserker cause she spent it on Rider. Zero tries to replicate this with Gae Buidhe's cut but had to turn her into an idiot to accomplish this and gave it up as soon as something showed up that needed an Excaliblast.

>>157041324
>believing stats
Her power is plot, just like every main character that ever existed.

>>157045115
Real servants can dematerialize and shank anyone at anytime. Saber for whatever reason, just sticks around like she's a living being.

>>157046538
Wasn't that because shirou is a shit magus and she doesn't have enough Mana from him to do that

>>157045636
Kerry's mere existence causes extreme emotional damage to Archer.

>kek someone actually used my pasta

Good on you for the bait

Saberfags BTFO

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>>157046538
>>157046644
Read Fate route. Insufficient magic was just a cover. It's because she is still a living being, not a spirit.

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>>157041324
Enkidu

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>>157047568
is p cool

>>157041705
why the fuck is he so strong isn't he just a teacher?

The actual truth is that Zero and Stay Night are both quite shit. Grand Order saved the franchise; there's no need to talk about those piles of trash anymore.

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>>157048468
>>376580127

Saber was nerfed because Shirou is a bad magus, and Caster was based enough with her magic to make a human strong like that.

>>157048318
In the HA is explained that he was trained as a assassin since his chilhood

>>157046994
But what happened in UBW when Rin made a contract with Saber?

>>157048857
She got a stat boost, but she still couldn't dematerialize. Same thing in Zero.

>>157041324
Kuzuki's fighting style is anti-instinct by nature, as its meant to be an assassination tool.

Instinct is a higher level Eye of the Mind (False) that can't be trained, which itself is a hax copy of Eye of the Mind (True) that is derived from natural ability/6th sense rather than training. Clairvoyance is the ability to see the future. Instinct just predict movement, which plays straight into Snake's unusual movement. In comparison, Archer's fighting style (which manifest as Eye of the Mind (True) ranked B) where he intentionally leave obvious holes in his defense to bait the opponents into attacking where he's capable of defending, would work perfectly fine against it.

>>157048857
Still physical. Shirou/mana supply had nothing to do with it. Zero never brought it up, but it's why she bothered with the suit.

>>157048978
But what happened in HF when Sakura made a contract with Saber?

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>>157049131
Reduced to a spirit after repeated tribbing

>>157049131
She still can't go into spirit form. But she can go into the shadow for instant transportation between her current location and Sakura.

>>157049131
Saber turned into a magical girl. But then it turned out to be a lie so she became a witch.

>>157049038
By that logic, wouldn't Archer be better at CQC than Saber? If she's got False, and he's got True, and all.

>>157049466
True = Batman
False = Spidey Sense
Instinct = Path to Victory (For Combat)
Revelation = Path to Victory (For Everything)

>>157049609
Doesn't that just reinforce my point? Batman's power is prep-time for CQC and shit.

>>157049691
The problem is that Archer isn't Batman. He goes around engaging Servants in melee when he should be sniping. He gets his shit wrecked when he fights any decent Servant in melee.

The best part was when Gilgamesh laughs maniacally for like ten minutes after half killing Shirou and Saber on their date while they impotently struggled to get up out of their own blood.

Gilgamesh laughing for an uncomfortably long time in the background while other characters (generally Saber) are trying to have a moment is so good it's happened twice now, in the DEEN anime and the Fate Zero Sound Drama

>>157050013
The man is very easily amused.

>>157049466
Archer's fighting style is to compensate for the fact that he's weaker and slower than his opponent, so leaving holes in his defense bait the enemy into attacking holes he can defend, not holes he can't. Even with it, his CQC is still pretty shite, his strength is in long range snipe with his large toolkit of arrows. Hrunting for homing snipe shot, Caladbolg II for large scale nuke, etc..

EOTM True = Product of training. It is the ability to calmly calculate and predict future moves using existing experience while in combat, a nerve of steel.

EOTM False = The same ability, but come naturally through natural talent/instinct rather through an accumulation of experience. Can be boosted/refined by experience. It is false because it only resemble the effect that true provide, and it cannot be obtained through training.

Instinct: A level higher than EOTM False. Skips the analysis and go straight to the result, it allow the user to immediately asses the best possible move at any given time. Instinct can be used to predict trajectory of fire arm, EOTM False can't.

Revelation - Instinct for everything, not just combat.

Clairvoyance - Far sight. At Rank EX, it allow seeing into the future.

>>157045115
When did a servant fight a master in F/Z? The closest I can remember is Lancer picking up his bitch.

>>157050441
Waver threatens to fight Gil, but gets laughed off.

None of the masters in F/Z were irrational enough to bother some thing as suicidal as fighting a servant alone.

>>157051019
>FZ masters
>Not deluded irrational fuckwits

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>>157041324
>magic drugs
you underestimate the power of boners

>>157051019
>Waver threatens to fight Gil, but gets laughed off.

when does this happen?

>>157051620
t. Stay Night fag

>>157052113
>Kerry
seigi no mikata autism +edge

>tokiyomi
Gil's dick holster

>Waver
lil bitch

>Kayneth
lil bitch

>Rynusooke
edge overload

>karya
#didnothingwrong

>kirei
#didnothingwrong

>>157052269
>Shirou
seigi no mikata autism +hot-headed+hypocrite

>Rin
Ruined her chances of winning for an autist.

>Shinji
lil bitch

>Illya
lil jealous bitch

>Kirei
#didnothingwrong

>Kuzuki
#didnothingwrong

>>157052413
that is indeed correct

what is it about HGW's that induce autism in everyone?

>>157041324
A human, raised from birth to be a barehanded assassin, boosted by a witch from the age of gods (who was trained by the goddess of magic herself) could probably land a hit or two on king arthur summoned by some japanese fuck with the magical talent of a commoner.

>>157052269
>>157052413
Shinji, Tokiomi, Kayneth, Kariya, and Waver were all wakames

Shirou, Kirei, Kerry, Ryuu, Sakura, and Illya were mentally ill

Rin, Kuzuki, Bazett, and Zouken were relatively well adjusted

>>157052413
also kinda masters

>Medea
#didnothingwrong

>zouken
isnt it nice seeing an old man spend time with his grand-kids?

>sakura
THE DEVIL

>>157052824
>Zouken
>Relatively well adjusted

>>157052937
all he did was have worms rape his kids for generation to try and summon satan to remake the world to get his crush back - perfectly well adjusted

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>>157052993

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>>157053070

>>157052937
>>157052993
When Shirou goes to meet him at the Matou mansion in HF, Zouken says his goal is to attain perfect immortality by giving shape to the soul, which is alluding to the Third. It's just that somewhere along the way he forgot that he wanted to make a paradise for mankind by elevating everybody and started obsessing over the fact that he didn't want to die, personally

>>157049038
I really want to dive more into this series but hte juxtaposition of it being primarily porn and this much complexity is offputting

>>157053154
>primarily porn
it really isnt - what little H scenes are in the base VN are removed in realta nua

>>157053154
the complexity is mostly semantic- its just shitposting at its heart

>>157053154
>primarily porn
unctuous mollusk

>>157053154
It's only 75 hours of your time to finish FSN and FHA, anon

>>157053277

>only 75 hours

Sorry I'm not a NEET so I don't have that kind of time investing on porn

>>157042648
Yeah, but Saber is the only Servant who always manages to survive until the very final battle.

You have to remember that in Fate/stay night, EVERYONE jobs. Sure, Saber jobs a lot, but so does Berserker, Caster, Rider, Archer, Lancer and Gilgamesh. The only one who doesn't job as much are the Assassins, because one barely gets to fight and the other is only in one route.

>>157049038
Don't you feel at least a little bit embarrassed writing all this?

>>157049916
That's part of his gameplan. When he gets serious, he pulls out the bow. Melee is his way of gauging the enemy.

His bow is basically his trump card. Archer doesn't have a special bow, so normal arrows are worthless. He needs to use Broken Phantasms to really compare to other Servants, but those are his trump cards. He can't afford to show them off so carelessly, but he can't get a good read on his opponent with just normal arrows, so he has to get in close.

>>157044819
i think this statement is untrue because shiro turned out to be one of the greatest heros the holygrail got its hands on

>>157053738
>shiro turned out to be one of the greatest janitors the holygrail got its hands on

Fixed that for you.

Let's go through her wins and losses one by one. In FSN she was stated-down by Shirou and has a very strict mana capacity:

-Pushed back Lancer, survived the Bulge
-gutted Archer once in each route
-Got gutted by Berserker in Fate and HF which is no shame since he's motherfucking Heracles
-Stalemate with Assassin, who is the most elder god tier super swordsman in the whole series.
-Shinji Rider never even registered as a threat before she broke out pegasus
-Eventually beat Heracles
-lost to Gilgamesh, the most OP servant ever (for a time). Managed to withstand Ea.
-Beat Gilgamesh
-Stunned by Kuzuki, who was a freakish assassin backed by age of gods magic. Kind of a stretch, but bizarre surprise attack by a Nanaya level mountain assassin. His technique only works one time against someone and that's why he pussed out from ever trying to go after her again.
-Ruuru breakaa'd while being held back via command seal. then went on to resist Caster's attempts to break her the whole time
-Beat Assassin
-gutted Rider and "killed" Zouken
-killed Caster
-got ringed out by the shadow while fighting True Assassin
-Saber Vs. Archer. Scenario was very unique and not indicative of either's aptitudes. She can't move much cause he's aiming for Shirou the whole time, but she uses a command spell to close the gap.
-Got Frag'd by Bazett, which took god knows how many retries for her to pull off.
-Swatted some avenger corpses

>>157053803
>pushed back Lancer

She pushed back jack shit. Lancer was forced to return by Kotomine because he's a massive faggot who enjoys Lancer's suffering.

>>157053927
>She pushed back jack shit.
lol but Lancer was a hot headed happy trigger so calling him back its the wise option

>>157053803
in Zero, however, she has no handicap other than being written by Butcher:

-Lost to Diarmuid cause she made extremely stupid mistakes in her fight with him
-Almost got her head smashed in by a lamppost until Diarmuid saved her.
-Bullymeat for Kiritsugu
-doesn't kill Caster despite hating him and having several opportunities
-Has to be saved from caster's monsters by Diarmuid.
-Bullymeat for Rider and Gil
-Attacked by JETS. She's never hit but is bailed out by Diarmuid and Gil
-Saved by Diarmuid for the fourth fucking time by breaking his spear to let her Excaliblast Caster
-Killed Caster
-Exclibast somehow not fast enough to kill Rider's slow ass. She lets him go afterwards
-Bullymeat for Lancelot
-Pushed back by Lancelot using Arondight but doesn't manage to kill her (somewhat impressive considering her very low morale and having Dragon alignment).
-Kills Lancelot with Invisible Air of all things when it didn't scratch him earlier (somehow)
-Beat by Gil's light GoB spam in the finale

>>157041324
F/SN has a few strengths, but consistence is not one of them.

>>157054959
It was already established that he would never be able to do that against Saber ever again. It was a surprise attack by a style she had no clue about. After that fight, she knows thus he's fucked. that was why he told Caster to bail (the scene was much different then how the anime portrayed which is no shock as ufotable messes up a good number of things in both zero and UBW)

>>157041705
I no longer want to watch UBW after this, wtf

>>157048778
Neat

>>157055203
It's also confirmed that he fell in love with Caster at first sight if I remember correctly. Irrelevant but I thought it was cute.

>>157055100
But UBW the VN has this? To be fair the VN actually explained how (basically Kuzuki's fighting style counter Saber's Instinct)

>>157055307
This is a problem with Ufotable as a whole, they hardly ever explain anything or worse, change events. I don't know what worse the fact that Saber was able to kill Herc in the graveyard, Archer using UBW in his fight with Shiirou or how they handled the Lancelot fight ending.

>>157055307
the animation you tard
Some of those frames don't even look like seibah

>>157051981
It's not a threat, but a matter-of-fact statement about the fact that he would do it in theory, which he makes to Gil after Iskandar dies.

>"But, boy, if you truly are a loyal subject, you have a duty to take revenge for your deceased King, do you not?"
>Even with the second question, Waver answered with a strangely calm heart. “… If I challenged you, I would die.”
>“Of course.”
>“I can’t do that. I was ordered to live.”

>>157041324
F/SN has an absurd amount of plot holes and incosistencies. The stats are just there for show; they don't explain any of the battle's outcomes.

>>157055374
animation got progressively worse as the series went on. They did some good stuff in S2 but the quality decline became very noticeable.

>>157041705
>edgy anime throw
I wanted her to get sent flying like a baseball.
this adaptation sucks balls.

>>157055364
Maybe they think the VN's Shirou vs Archer was hard to adapt, considering it's the two narrative and thought processes running in parallel that make that fight so interesting. So instead they opt for visuals and dialogue in the anime by using UBW

>>157055574
Which might have worked, had they not mentioned he was too low in mana. It's bad enough we already have Archer having to clean up a mess in the ending so UBW didn't end with Shirou ripping his arm off and having no one to celebrate because Tin got Saber to excaliblast her. Ufotable didn't think ahead at all or make the proper changes to make this choice work.

>>157055729
Rin*

>>157050013
>the Fate Zero Sound Drama
Where might this be available now? Does anyone know? I can't seem to find an available version with nyaa dead, bakabt MIA, etc, etc. There are, of course, parts of it available on Youtube - Kerry vs Kirei, and the ilk - but not the full work.

>>157055409
At least in that scene Nasu tries to explain by having Kuzuki's style being able to change target instantly to fuck with Instinct

>>157053738

this >>157053784

Shirou became a counter guardian, no hero. Basically his kind just appeared where turmoil was happening, he appeared and killed everyone regardless of their affiliation or who caused it hence EMIYA being so butthurt.

>>157041324
Power levels mean jack shit in FNS, most fights are about NP, compatibility between servants and their own creativity.

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>>157048111
But is it a mary sue?

>>157045115
Rin did it, not the narration. It's not like it's some universal fact. Saying that a Master can never beat a Servant is like saying a single soldier can never beat a tank. Both statements are technically true, but exceptions do exist.

>>157048318
Only the strong survive in education

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>>157056836
He's not, and fuck you don't call him "it"
If Gil doesn't call him "it", I sure as hell won't

He's got a distinctive character that scares some people and attracts others, he's not supposed to exist in the world as a Servant, he has at least one clearly-defined weakness; he's not a Sue.

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>>157057531
So it is a 'he'?

>>157048318
He's actually an ex-assassin who was trained since childhood to perform a single assassination and then end himself, but after completing his mission he instead chose to run away and live as a stern school teacher living in a temple situated above the cavern of the Holy Grail. By chance, while out on a midnight mountain walk, he came across the wounded Caster and quickly agreed to form a contract with her. She then amplified his strength tenfold with her enchantments.

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>>157057639
Yes. Essentially everyone uses 彼 to refer to Enkidu as opposed to 其 or something equally obscurant and ambiguous.

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>>157057942
Enkidu is cool.

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>>157057981
He is.

I still don't know why they fucked up and started calling him "Erkidu" in Japan[ese]. Does anyone know the reason that that happened? I don't mean the fact that they spelled it wrong in kana, I'm asking *why* they spelled it wrong in the kana. It's extremely glancing, and should have been noticed by any editor/QC in an instant.

Saber vs Kuzuki is the most bullshit thing Nasu wrote pre-Extra.

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>>157041324
>trained as an assassin from birth
>millions spent to get him to that level
>all that to kill just one guy and then himself
Who does this?

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>>157058462
>spends ~40 years trying to kill one bird
Who does this? Besides the coyote from Roadrunner.

>>157058260
Medea is just really fucking good at buffing people.

>>157041324
>Character without A rank instinct dies to Kuzuki's attack
>Character with it it doesn't die
Really makes you think...

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ITY
No one has read the VN

>>157041324
You're forgetting her Master was the shittiest mage in the the HGW and that said Magic Drugs were coming from an Age of Gods Magician who is the Niece of Circe and Granddaughter of Helios

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>>157055757
Seriously - please, help me find the audio drama[s]. I've checked well over 20 sites, and cannot find one functional means of downloading or listening to it. Any help at all would be appreciated.

ITT: Secondaries

>>157058658
Not like they had anything better to do back in the day.

>>157055416
blame god eater for that both series suffered from being way too close to each other.

>>157059814
Could've spent his time doing something like training to beat Musashi. Instead, he just focused on fighting birds and being bad at talking to women.

>>157060111
Musashi and Kojiro are not real in the Nasuverse. Assassin's just a normal dude that is good with a katana, and the Grail just brand him Kojiro

>>157061351
It was a joke. Can't say a word anymore, without people jumping into lore discussions, can I?

>>157061618
I don't know man. Sorry bud

>>157041324
Why are the japs so bad at internal consistency?

>>157056262
Counter Guardian is a stupid English-only concept. Heroes and CG both fall under the category of heroic spirit, CG just get the shitty janitor works while Heroes get to do big hero world saving stuffs like fight beasts. In both cases you're stuck in the Throne of Heroes for eternity

>>157061705
>Counter Guardian is a stupid English-only concept

>Amongst Heroic Spirits, there were ones who existed in legends, ones who actually lived, and ones who were never observed. Those who were rarely worshiped were included in the classification of "Counter Guardians", and were utilized as an unconscious Counter Force.
>In the Heroic Spirits in this story, only Archer functioned as a Counter Guardian.
>Other Heroic Spirits were aligned with the planet rather than humanity, due to their high divinity. Counter Guardians were not within this category.

>>157061658
it's ok

>>157046994
How does that even matter if her body is completely made out of the same fairy dust that all other servants are put together from?

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>>157053444

>>157052398
I wish she and Saber talked to each other more about her mom.

>>157058462
When you absolutely, positively want the dude dead, and you don't want to send someone with a background they could trace. Plus I;m pretty sure his vampire bosses are the kinda of people to whom even billions is no object.

>>157054705
>doesn't kill Caster despite hating him and having several opportunities
>Has to be saved from caster's monsters by Diarmuid.
The novel explains better than the cartoon, but basically Caster kept summoning an almost infnite number of star-demons and she couldn't get closer to him. And she also couldn't use her noble phantasm because her body was injured.

And you need to understand that on Fate/Zero Saber still is a noble person who really cares about honor and this kind of bullshit. By the way, Rider himself said that she is not a king, she is a child playing to be king. On the end of Fate/Zero she decides to act exactaly like Kiritsugu and stopped carying about having a "fair fight". You can see her character development on the "Fate" route. She barely talked with Shiro and when she did was about the Holy Grail War.