Who was in the right here?
>>156970007
Saber.
It's just that her ideas were too early and unsuited for her kingdom. That was one of the points of the scene, showing that rulers need to adapt to what they rule and idealism is not enough. The right answer is not always the correct answer.
>>156970007
It's a matter of preference really. I would never fight for Gilgamesh or Ikander, for example.
Nobody.
There's no single correct way of being a king. It all depends on the history and cultural context of the people being ruled.
That being said Saber is the cutest so I would probably follow seiba.
>>156970044
>The right answer is not always the correct answer.
Fucking Shirou is swear to god
only gilgamesh, we see this also in FGO
>>156970044
>saber
except not? she and iskander are shit kings but saber was the worst king
>>156970007
Saber is a dumb ideologue with nothing interesting to say, she's nothing but empty rhetoric.
>>156970007
Rider
>>156970138
>she's nothing but empty rhetoric.
except she lived that rhetoric
>>156970205
No, it lived her, the ideology possessed her, not the other way around.
>>156970007
There is more than one way to rule a country and you can find successful countries and leaders throughout history that applied each of the philosophies that were described at that meeting.
>>156970007
The banquet of kings was utterly ridiculous and the only thing it did was pretend that the guy whose definition of "king" was "winner of popularity contest among warriors" had anything to discuss with characters who actually had anything to do with ruling. It was a clumsy attempt for Urobuchi to pretend Iskander was one of the "kings" and that he had any plan or vision whatsoever beyond doing whatever he wanted and hoping other people would post-hoc make it a good thing. Gilgamesh and Arturia actually argue against each others' vision of what a king does in FSN whereas the banquet's only resolution is Iskander going "well I was more popular so I win."
Iskander's entire "philosophy" and ultimately meaningful characterization being a load of nonsensical transparent rationalization for regular selfishness. This by itself wouldn't be too bad if the narrative didn't clearly bend over itself to pretend otherwise by presenting him with no challenges to those ideas, letting him shout down any opposition and saddling him with a doormat Master who has absolutely no way of challenging him in any way.
>>156970007
The whole point of the scene is that there isn't something as a right stance.
Gil went: I am awesome and thus I am the rightful king of all.
Iskandar went: I bring the common man to share a dream and do awesome things that would be impossible otherwise, and thus I am a king.
Saber went : I sacrifice myself to embody an ideal, and that ideal makes the common man and the prodigal man both rise to new heights, for the glory of my ideal and the kingdom, and thus I am a king.
Iskandar can accept Gil, but Saber can accept none of them, as they place themselves before their kingdom.
If I had to choose I'd say Iskandar has the better balance here, and is somewhat right-er (yeah, yeah, or correct-er Shirou, sheesh...)
>>156970007
gilgamesh got something right , in that scene.
The best wine was the one from the gods.gilgamesh was one of the first kings ,
he knows from experience how to rule.
saber was some pleb who could actually pull out scalibur and knows nothing about being a king/queen.
the other king was just dumb , and fighted becouse reasons
>>156970387
saber has the right of it - the king should not be before the kingdom
They were all wrong
Saber was least wrong and got few things right however
>>156970007
That scene was basically a ham fisted reminder why nobody would realistically fight for or serve Gilgamesh.
>>156970007
Alexander and Gilgamesh. Their views were correct ways to be a king.
Whether one thinks having a king is a good idea, is another thing. But if you were to have a king, these are the ways to do it.
Video related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_9W8JrAKNg
>>156970007
Rider would at least let you die in peace
Saber would do everything in her power to prevent all the wrongs but will never notice your individual faults.
Gilgamesh at this point is similar to Rider's philosophy of rule. Honor/Respect matter (Remember how Gil treated Waiver) but you'll never be above the ruler.
>>156970007
>Saber is dump
>Gilgamesh have god complex
It's rider without doubt
>>156970890
That makes a lot of sense to us, doesn't it?
I think it works a lot better in something like a Republic, that should be handled by the people and for the people, and the people's representative just suppressing his own desires for five -or seven- fucking years.
I'm not sure a kingdom works this way. If you can't take joy in what you do because you need to keep being some perfect idealized image of a king in front of your citizen for the good of the kingdom, at some point you just snap, or you don't and you just start weirding people out, because you should have snapped ages ago.
Rider, and Gil's point is that by being themselves and lovin' it they are working for the best of the kingdom, as the kingdom exists through them and their accomplishments.
>>156970007
Well, Gil's was the most successful kingdom overall.
>>156971057
No, anon, Saber notices your faults. She just doesn't care for them and saves you regardless. Thus, all that matters to her is that you are, that mere fact is enough for her to try to protect you, but who you are and why are irrelevant to her. She acknowledges you as a human worth saving, but doesn't care about what makes you the person you are.
>>156971108
i just think that a truly great kingdom should be greater than the sum of its parts - if the king is greater than the kingdom then the kingdom isnt really great
>>156971134
Whole lot of good that did Lancelot.
>>156971134
>She acknowledges you as a human worth saving, but doesn't care about what makes you the person you are.
Because that help her a lot with Lancelot and Gwen.
>>156971170
>>156971179
That was exactly my point. It wasn't a compliment for Saber.
Gil is the "rightest" one. Primarily because we've actually seen his logic being proven as right. We've seen his kingdom, and it's a great kingdom. That's essentially what separates his perspective from the others. Everybody in Uruk has purpose, and everybody is happy. The citizens would fight to the death in attempt to protect where they live rather than abandon it in the hopes of surviving otherwise. We don't see this of the other kingdoms/kingships, if only because we don't see the other kingdoms.
Iskandar's perspective of kingship is completely inadvertent, and doesn't last for particularly long. His idea of 'king' is closer to the idea of "guy who does whatever he wants". You can be that way without being a king - and, it'll cost less.
Saber literally killed all of her own subjects after being betrayed by her own fault, so it's pretty clear that she isn't right. Her entire route in FSN is some autistic kid convincing her that she shouldn't be *punished* for fucking up horribly. There's never a point where she thinks "yeah, I'm glad I killed everybody; it was the right thing to do".
Who was right? The strongest one obviously.
Rider is the best
>>156971227
Yes anon. Obviously, Alexander is just do whatever you want. That's why his main point is giving a dream to others, which what anyone who does whatever he wants automatically does, right?
>>156970007
Gilgamesh was the only right one there.
Not what exactly he did with it but yes, his main ideal about governing with self-respect.
>>156971304
What do you think I meant by 'inadvertent'?
It cannot be a conclusion which was drawn before becoming king. It's an answer that he arrived at after being a king for an unknown or undetermined period of time.
>>156971442
Anon, Alexander isn't just do whatever you want. It's do whatever you want in a way that would inspire others. There's a difference.
>>156971485
>Macedonians inspired themselves into ruins
Doesn't surprise me desu
>>156971485
That has nothing to do with what I've said.
I didn't say that he was "do whatever you want"; I said he was closer to that notion than he was to "king". In that, by "king", I mean the contemporary and most common view of the identity of "king".
>>156971608
The common view of king is hereditary supreme ruler by blood, as long as he fits that, he's king.
>>156971595
Rider Alexander and Real Alexander were very different people. Actual Alex was closer to Gil -both in behavior and appearance- , but since Gil was already defined in S/N, when they made Zero, they had to make Alex a new character, or they'd be too similar.
>>156971227
>>156971304
You're forgetting the part where Gil has the advantage of living in a high fantasy setting where his power can rival the God's, where Iskander and Saber (magic harps and swords aside) both have to make do with what they had at the time. Urk's quality of life alone doesn't justify Gil's views.
I'm still angry that they remove Gil's dialogue about breaking sabers pussy.
>>156971851
>Uruk's quality of life alone doesn't justify Gil's views.
Yes it does
>... have to make do with what they had at the time
And Gil didn't/doesn't have Solomon powers therefore he, too, had to "make do". Either way, that's not a real point of contention.
It seems to me that this conflict is as much between three different historic ethics of life and government as between three kings.
Gilgamesh represents the ancient-mythic mindset where man, god and nature are all intertwined and don't have clear distinctions. His right to rule emerges from the fact that he is the most powerful, with his persona stretching into the realms of godhood and being an essential "force of nature". This is the ideal he embodies and is what makes him "more than a man" ergo the rightful ruler.
Iskander embodies a classical ethos where man, god and nature have become more clearly delineated. Men must be ruled by other men, not gods or natural spirits, and it is men that command the earth (although gods remain as a social ritual). This is an ethos for a time based on human power and domination, on the full expression of "human" feeling and being. Thus Iskander, whilst acting as he does for his own reasons and for his own fulfilment, does so as King because he also embodies the human dreams and exuberance of others and offers them fulfilment.
Saber, meanwhile, is the most obvious as an embodiment of the christian ethos. Sabers ideal of kingship is one that goes beyond herself, because Saber, like all humans, is a flawed and weak creature. What makes her king is that she has the capacity to embody an impossible ideal that is beyond humanity but nonetheless worth aspiring to. In doing so, she must sacrifice her humanity and essentially punish her own weakness, allowing her to transcend it in service of this higher ideal. This is the essential lesson of the story of Jesus.
>>156970007
Gil is objectively the strongest and always right about everything. I don't remember what that scene is about since F/Z is shit but I'm sure Gil was right there too.
>>156972038
Interesting thoughts.
But, you've given no conclusion[s] in your thesis and defense.
>>156970007
Now between them and Emperor of Mankind, who was right
Why have there been so many more Fate threads than usual the past few days? Announcement?
>>156972294
It's just increased interest by virtue of the increasing number of adaptations, derivative works, and new bits of Grand Order. This is also, incidentally, why more and more of the threads seem increasingly poorly-informed.
>>156972294
Fate is monopolizing the entire otaku market, GO was just announced for english, apocrypha anime is coming out, HF anime is coming out, fucking shinbo extra is coming out.
By next year we'll just be /a/ - Fate, KyoAni, and whatever shit is currently airing
>>156972363
>>156972387
I saw like 5-10 up at any time the last 3 or 4 days it felt like.
>>156970044
This. Saber did the right thing implicitly. She was a self-sacrificial hero. Just because it didn't result in Britain's salvation doesn't mean it was the wrong choice. The good guys don't have to win to be the good guys.
>>156972432
I think you're exaggerating heavily but yes. Between waifuposting, arguing about whether GO is good or not, and secondaries makes threads about Zero and UBW (like this one) there's going to be a lot of fate threads over the next few years
>>156972432
It's as we've said. There's no real or specific 'reason' for it. Trend fluxes happen all the time with franchises with which you are unfamiliar; they just go unnoticed because you are unfamiliar. Every few months, people even begin to attempt to make Berserk generals. This is what /a/ is now.
>>156970007
They were all right on some points and wrong on others.
Saber was right in that it is the ruler's duty to benefit the ruled, not trample over them in tyranny and conceit.
Iskandar was right in that the ruler must not make themselves a slave of the ruled thereby. They lead, not obey.
Gilgamesh was right in that the ruler must be absolute. No half-measures or equals that quibble over power.
Saber was wrong in that she thought the king must not have human emotions. The king must understand his people.
Iskandar was wrong in that he thought the king's whims overrule the needs of his people. The king must aid his people.
Gilgamesh was wrong in that he believes the king is more than human and beyond his subject's reproach.. at least, wrong in the sense that it's not something that others can achieve. You could say he's not wrong entirely, as he is a 2/3rds demigod with supernatural foresight, but this would mean only Gilgamesh has the right to be king in all of human history. He certainly thinks so. But unfortunate for us, the king must be human.
>>156970118
>saber was the worst king
How?
>>156972190
I'm afraid I don't have much of one to offer - it could be said that all of them are "right" in their own historical time, and that they now face each other on this transcendental plane out of time is a complete anomaly with perhaps un-resolvable contradictions between them and within themselves.
Nonetheless, Saber's christian ethos seems the most capable of "defeating" the others for the same reasons that ethos came to replace them historically. Iskander is the ultimate man, and Gilgamesh is more than man, but whilst Saber individually is the weakest she represents an ideal that is greater than either.
>>156970007
Everyone is right and wrong depending on perspective. Who can determine that who is right and wrong?
>>156970007
All of them are wrong and misguided in their own way but rider makes the most sense out of the three of them.
>>156970324
>letting him shout down any opposition and saddling him with a doormat Master who has absolutely no way of challenging him in any way.
wasn't that kind of that point? he was a very charismatic leader more than the other two anyway,
Think about it like this:
Gilgamesh and his kingdom got a happy ending.
Arturia went to her death miserable and with Britain in shambles.
Iskandar led countless men to die of dehydration in the middle of the fucking deserts looking for something which didn't exist and, shortly afterwards, died a fairly slow and miserable death on his own (which may-or-may-not have been a betrayal poisoning).
Who, then, did the best job? The answer is easy to reach.
Which Servant represents free citizens?
>>156970007
The one who outlived the other two
Reminder that you will never have Oyakodon with a tomboy king and her tomboy daughter
>>156977988
"Free" is a relative concept and a subjective ideal. Under the appropriate interpretations, one might even say that Gil's citizens were the most free.
You have to define "free" before you ask your question.
>>156970324
The point of Iskandar is that he's a charismatic tyrant. Saber's ideology was the best for her people but she was uncharismatic robot when she was alive.
>>156970007
Saber. Even if she wouldn't make a great king, she'd make a great ruler for the common folk.
>>156970007
What if their switch place? Like if Saber in a place of Gil, or Gil in a place of Rider
>>156978402
She wouldn't be good in any position of power. She is a nice person, but not fit to lead.
>>156978402
Yet her downfall came because she treated Mordred like shit.
>>156978551
>she treated Mordred like shit
>>156970007
Arturia got BTFO, but she was more of a king than iskandar that was a warrior/hero/general more than a king, and gilgamesh was just a selfish faggot as a king.
Any man would follow iskandar without thinking it twice
There is no right really. Like someone pointed out earlier good rulers are highly contextual to the era they live in and the conditions at the time. You can be a good ruler all you want but it won't matter if the country is so deep in the shitter when you take the throne that nothing matters. Or vice versa you could be a bad ruler but it wouldn't fucking matter if your country was already prosperous enough for mistakes to be made and ignored. You can't just become a good ruler. It is entirely on the people being ruled and their mindsets at the time.
>>156970007
iskandar is carismatic i can fight for him
Saber was a shitty king, she pushed his ideals of self-sacrifice for her kingdom (not the people), to everyone that's why she got betrayed by his vassals, she never understood the dreams or feelings of his own people not even of the people close to her, in fact she only comes to realize that her ideals were fucked up after she got summoned in the holy grail war. Her kingdom got uterly destroyed, not like iskandar or gilgamesh.
>>156978408
As another said, above - they are products of their times. They cannot come to exist independent of their own context.
If you force the question into more of a "what if the established Gilgamesh replaced Iskandar"-type theoretical, you'd simply end up with Gil doing nothing other than ruling (or maybe even just hanging around), because he has already come to believe that everything of value belongs to him and will return to him in the end. If Arturia replaced Gilgamesh, she'd just be betrayed or killed in like an hour - she lacks any right to rule, and the gods will be pissed that she doesn't so much as believe in them. If Iskandar replaced Arturia, Britain would simply become a slightly-larger empire than it was.
Is Arthur difffrent than Saber when it comes to this?
I haven't read Prototype.
>>156978402
Saber is not a ruler or leader. That's why she was mocked.
Gilgamesh is 1/3 God, people respected his divine authority and followed unquestionably. He ruled over his people and lead them to whenever destination he wanted.
Rider is a tyrant too but charismatic one. He was passionate and his wish became the wish of his people. He was leading, but he didn't have to rule over them, his people followed and wanted to go whenever Rider needed.
Saber wasn't ruling nor leading, she was following the wish of her people.
And without any concrete direction that ruling turned to shit. She was a noble warrior and knight, but leading needs selfishness she didn't have. Today she'll be you liberal president I think.
>>156979265
Nah he's pretty much the same.
Can mods make themselves useful and start purging these garbage threads?
>>156979265
Depends on the Arthur. Fairly sure that Grand Order's Arthur, at least, has a different perspective, but I don't remember much. I do remember that he supposedly killed a fucking Beast, though.
>>156979428
Ask them to take care of the generals, first. You may return when that has been done. Before that promised time, you have no reason to raise your voice.
>>156979428
Mods don't delete threads, newfriend.
>>156979446
Pretty sure both are the same Arthur, I remember him dropping some references to Ayaka and Fragments.
>>156979446
He stopped a Beast from being summoned in Proto.
>>156977698
>happy ending
>got eaten by beasts spawned from an angry earth godess
>>156979539
Perhaps. Though, it is to be remembered: there's multiple fucking Ayakas.
>>156977698
Gil also told the gods to fuck off and started the end of the Age of Gods.
Be a free common citizen under
>Arturia
Death by her hand or her daughter's hand, you could also die from starving
>Iskandar
Death in a war, but you could get riches and pillage villages, if you get lucky you could move to the capital and avoid wars
>Gilgamesh
Enjoy a happy and peacefull life in a flourish kingdom full of happy people
>>156979659
Is Gilgamesh, dare I say it, /ourguy/?
>>156979614
That's a Singularity ending. That didn't happen in the normal history, as I recall.
>>156979508
Most generals are gone by now, eternal/samefag threads are much more cancerous than generals right now
>>156979535
Fine, janis then. My bad.
My point still stands though, fuckface.
>>156979625
Infinite universes and all that. FGO Arthur is the same as Proto Arthur. Just look at his Bond CE.
>>156970007
Childhood is when you idolize Alexander. Adulthood is when you realize Gilles actually made more sense.
>>156979697
Your point doesn't stand.
>Most generals are gone by now
See, you're even blind. You kill DJT and panda threads without even killing the generals and now you want to kill any thread format you don't like.
>>156979728
>>156979697
>Most generals are gone by now
Do not propose to lie to me.
>>156979659
While true, you're better off giving more of the credit for that to Solomon.
>>156979704
As I said, I don't remember much. Nor can I read Japanese fluently. Not quite willing to sift through 600 pages of BL threads every day, either.
>>156979697
monster girl, 3x3, JoJo, Yahari, Drawnthreads, buyfags, idolshit generals are still there
>>156979971
And SnK, KanColle, LWA, Aikatsu, Precure, and a whole host of others that I can't name off the top of my head.
>>156979697
i dont know what you suggest they do outside of banning fate altogether - the topics would just appear within threads and take over
>>156970007
Alexander.
Gilgamesh is "correct" in his own way, but that depends on the King... Gilgamesh as a child and older once he returns, were great and excellent kings, but young adult Gil was shite.
Arturia is just completely fucking wrong. Trying to shoulder everything on your own shoulders is exactly why her kingdom fell to complete ruin.
>>156971227
>>156971851
The problem with Gil is that he turns into an asshole tyrant the moment Enkidu isn't around. The guy needs to make more friends.
>>156981197
There is literally nothing wrong with tyranny.
>>156979446
No he's a slider like Musashi he travels to different dimensions being forced to complete some objective then being teleported again. The Fuyuki singularity had him talking to Roman offscreen.
>>156970387
The whole point was that every stance was right.
Gilgamesh took the king as the most ancient concept. No man has the right to rule over men, so only something greater, something more godly can rule. The king was always divine and Gilgamesh has the highest divinity. He also is literally Nietzsches Superman. He is an unmovable object that moves everything around him. He destroyed equality by being above everyone else in every matter, but by destroying equality he created a place where everyone had a role to fit in and even the lowest slave was important.
I like Gilgamesh stance the most but the others weren't wrong.
Iskander gave everyone a place by giving everyone a dream. And to reach this dream his people had to rise past their own limit, bettering themselves and reaching something beyond the average person. Iskander was Zarathustra searching and creating Supermen.
At the sae time his thought about the king being the greatest warrior, the greatest person is ancient as well, but most of the time divinity was still important there. If you look at ancient stories you will see that even usurper had some kind of divinity. Just look at Caesar. He took the power with his own deeds, but the gens Julia comes directly from Aeneas. I'm not sure but I believe I heard of a story once were a freed slave who fought for his life and became King, without divinity.
Saber was right in believing in something higher. She wanted the best for her country and her people and put that even before herself, but I never liked that, even if her idea isn't wrong. Because what is a country without a king?
I'm still fucking around in the Camelot chapter in Fate go, but I heard Gilgamesh is a pretty good king in Babylon.
>>156970007
Saber should have been a prime minister, not a king.
>>156981197
He's declared that he will absolutely never have any other friends. Half of it, I imagine, is because of the fact that it's outright stated that nobody but Enkidu has/had ever understood Gil. Think about how depressing that must have been. The other half is probably pure respect for Enkidu.
>>156981332
Well, sucks for him, I suppose. Is he stuck at the end of his life like Arturia, or is it something else entirely?
>>156981326
Gil was only a tyrant because he was unhappy and lonely. The state of his kingdom was a reflection of his own emotional state. So yes, there was something wrong in with his tyranny.
>>156981644
No he's just stopping the Beast of Revelation because his Merlin sent him to go do it. Which we will have to kill for good in FGO2
>>156981658
>The state of his kingdom was a reflection of his own emotional state
There is literally nothing wrong with that. It's his kingdom.
>>156981644
Yes, this is correct. Its exactly what he says and feels, but doesn't change the fact that the motherfucker needs to make more friends.
>>156981742
It's not his fault that nobody understands him.
>>156981699
If he's not at the end of his life, then, he can't really have the same ideals as Arturia, can he? Hers were derived from those dying moments.
>>156981734
Its bad because he wasn't happy (and by extension no one got to be happy). Being a tyrant isn't something he did to make himself feel better, he was a tyrant because he was miserable. This state of misery is not the proper state of the world ergo the intervention of the gods in making Enkidu.
In other words you shouldn't be miserable and be a pain in the ass to everyone else. Go make friends and be happy.
>>156970007
gilgamesh is the correct answer.
>>156972584
she was the only one from the 3 to fail the kingdom before she died.
>>156970007
Alex and Gil
In F/SN Saber is just a retarded cunt due to the poor writing and what not .Her motivations are non-sensical
In Zero, Urobuchi expanded on that retarded cuntiness and put it in context, and made it a character trait. Saber was retarded because she was, for all intents and purposes, a teen girl not a king; an emotional child. She was retarded because she's just a retarded kid.
>>156982439
>Her motivations are non-sensical
What the fuck are you talking about?
Her motivation in FSN was to erase her kingship from history because she thought it was her fault that Camelot fell. How is that non-sensical?
>>156982755
>Her motivation in FSN was to erase her kingship from history because she thought it was her fault that
That's nonsensical. It's just a retarded sentiment. Whenever Shirou asked about it she just sperged the fuck out and never gave an adequate answer.
>>156970007
Girls are always right because, for some reproductive reasons. But Saber sit on the left side.
>>156979689
>Enjoy a happy and peacefull life in a flourish kingdom full of happy people
Actually yes, the Gilgamesh rulings was a nice ones.
>>156970185
His nation was like Caesar's Legion. Once the charismatic leader was gone it had nothing left to stand on
>>156970007
Saber was right of course.
>>156981734
>There is literally nothing wrong with that. It's his kingdom.
Google noblesse oblige
>>156984584
>implying that applies to someone who is 2/3 god
>>156984584
>Google noblesse oblige
Did you even read the Wikipedia article on what you're telling others to google?
>The Dictionnaire de l'Académie française defines it thus:
>Whoever claims to be noble must conduct himself nobly.
>(Figuratively) One must act in a fashion that conforms to one's position and with the reputation that one has earned.
Gil says this shit, almost word-for-word, all the time.