How do we make battle shounen great again?

You can't.

>>156731359
Plan out the story in advance.
Biweekly to allow for more rest and less constraint.

>>156731359
Recognize that storytelling has layers, especially within the action-adventure genre. There might be a good overall story idea but what about the acts that comprise the story? What kind of storytelling goes on within each fight? Outside of the fighting? What about within an individual chapter? And yes, even within a page or a panel.

A cool, new move with no narrative purpose nor narrative leading up to it is less interesting and satisfying than an old, familiar move with both.

Omit needless fights.

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>>156731359
It's dead and gone. DB super is literally just Eastern capeshit.

Hero Academia? OPM? Ippo?

>>156732831
>OPM

If saitama wasn't a character then yes, but since he can end every fight in "One Punch" it defeats any buildup.

>>156733767
Every OPM fight is a parodically compressed version of typical post-DBZ fight structure.

>>156731504
How are artists supposed to plan when they work all day and executives decides which characters get more screen time based off of fan polls?

Hero academia does the job just fine

>>156731359
When was it great?

>>156733767
He usually comes in at the end to finish shit.

>>156731359

Original DB is adventure oriented, not battle oriented... battles where a part of it but not the whole point.

So instead of doing tournaments focus on story and characters.

>>156734849
Kinda this. Battling in shounen is similar to drama in SoL in that they should be used as a means rather than an end in storytelling. If the narrative exists just to have battles/drama in it then the narrative can feel contrived and boring. This may be what turned so many people off Kiznaiver.

>>156734849
>Original DB is adventure oriented, not battle oriented
only for the first 30 chapters.

>>156733767
Spectacle > fake feeling of being threatened
Most good shonen battles are good because they look good, not because "oh, the mc ALMOST died this time"

Rewrite history so Gash Bell and HxH replaced Naruto and Bleach in the big 3 and shonen series emulated them instead

>>156735393
Spectacle can be good, but making fights interesting and tatical is more important. It doesn;'t matter if you know the MC will win if you don't know HOW he wins and does so creatively

>>156731359
Don't make them weekly.

>>156731359
make smart battles and somehow change the shonen demographic's taste so that it becomes commercially sustainable, or somehow create a market for smart battles, or slap in some bait for the larger demographics (among the most common ones are style/flashiness, and relatable/likable characters, stories and setting, then the more specific ones such as yuribait, fujobait, etc.) while attempting to keep them from interfering in the author's work too much.

>>156731359
They're still great, it's you who got old.

>>156735597
>making fights interesting and tatical is more important
While i think a creative fight is good, i think it is hard to say "this kind of fight is better than that".
Just accept them for what they are. OPM is a series about secondary characters getting surprised in a comic way and very spectacular "fights" where the villains dish out everything in a hopeless attempt to win..

Adventure shonen
One piece
Dragonball
Hxh
Naruto
Avatar the last airbender
Inuyasha

Battle shonen
Gash bell
Naruto shippuden
Bleach
Dragonball z, super
Yu yu hakusho
Devilman
Pokemon
Boku no hero academia
Ruroruni kenshin
Afro samurai

Adventure shonen can have battle based parts of it but at the end of the day is still an adventure shonen. The same is true with a battle shonen

>>156736462
Subtle bait.

>>156736502
Other than the airbender remark everything else is true

>>156735297

it's funny how the closest thing to original DB i can think of is the original Avatar...

All the rest eventually end up becoming battle oriented... even stuff that starts adventure oriented like HxH or OP.

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>Bring back old school gore
>Care about the writing process
>Have fighting styles take their cues from real martial arts
>Less flashy fights

>>156734849
People say that, but it's not really the case. After Pilaf, you have three tournaments, a villain-centered arc, and adventure/battle.
I mean, look at Kid Goku's body count, it's enormous. Toriyama made this series so he could stop writing puns for Dr. Slump, but he ended up making the first arc just Slump in China, so the next arcs focused way more on actual fighting.

>>156737794
>less flashy fights
>posts souther
He was the epitome of flash.

>>156731359
New morals, themes, symbolism, and allegory.

>>156738073
Four tournaments, if you count the Baba saga.

Make it sell toys.

>>156738256
True. Dragon Ball had a pretty heavy emphasis on fighting past the first arc. When GT tried to replicate it, the show wasn't nearly as successful, mainly due to focusing on adventure and humor rather than action.

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>>156733767

I dunno man.
The build up for him and Monster Garou to fight was pretty sweet.

Shit got amazing when Garou was actually dodging and countering his shit. Sure he went down easy in the end, but what a man.

I hope the Murata version goes much longer.

>>156735597
I posted this in another thread but got no replies, watched the Netero vs. Meruem and Gon vs. Pitou fights and wasn't impressed at their fights, are there any examples of strategical battles in HxH?

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>>156731359
>DBS version

>>156736147
I agree, OPM is the type of anime to watch with your brain turned off and have a laugh at it

>>156733961
Plans can be reworked. You can at least have something in mind besides "this one-off I did was well received, guess I'll just wing it for 500+ chapters."

There's no reason why other manga genres can keep themselves contained but battle shonen all have to go off the wall way past where they should have ended.

>>156740367
That's not what he said at all you 'tard.

>>156738942
Hisoka vs. Kastro
Morel vs. Cheetu
Morel vs. Leol

I think Chrollo vs. the Zoldycks had some rusing but it's been a while since I've read the manga.

>>156741815
thank you, will try to look them up

>>156731359

First of all you should identify when was it great and why. I'm not trying to be ironic, though I don't like fighting series that much.

Battles should also fit into a narrative. For example, I like Jojo battles a lot, but for all they're praised for being creative, sometimes they feel like the characters are just pulling random tricks against each other. On the other side, there are fights where the characters are developed as they fight, and I find them much more satisfactory. One of the best examples I can remember now is Beach Boy's user, and also Diavolo vs Metallica's user, mostly because it gave an impression that things were happening outside the plot. Basically, don't forget you ahve to make characters and plot seem real, as in, there are human beings fighting.

>>156738942

Morel had some of the best fights in that regard, the guy with the giant pipe. Gon vs Knuckle was very strategic, even though they mostly used basic blasts. Also the fight against Youpi, made better by the fact that Youpi kept learning new things during the fight.

Netero vs Meruem is basically an old man being dismembered, it's too one sided to be considered a fight. The same for Gon vs Pitou. They have great dramatic impact, but that only means something if you liked the arc until that point, out of the arc's context they're pretty boring.

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>>156739052
WHERE DID IT GO WRONG

>>156739052
I like the show, but after starting MHA and finishing up Yu Yu Hakusho, I'm starting to realize how low my standards for fight scenes are when it comes to Super. Its a shame that a show that's known for its fighting has so many lackluster ones, the scenes I usually go back and rewatch are the comedic or light-hearted ones.

>>156736462
>Dragonball
>Naruto
>Naruto Shippuden
>Dragonball Z, Super
>Being one of those faggots.

All of these are one series, Toonamifag.

The Dragonball manga covers everything up until Uub and the Naruto manga covers everything up until the end of Shippuuden.

Neck yourself.

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more filler and character develop less fighting.

>>156735597
Hey anon. Just curious, is gash bell really that great ?, I wasn't old enough to have watched the anime ( and have appreciated it anyway)

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"Again" would imply a previous state of greatness, which three was none

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>>156739052

>>156739052
To be fair, the cancer of LOL I PUNCH FASTER started in DBZ

>>156731359
super was supposed to bring that back bit goku only uses power up techniques.

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>>156731359
>How do we make battle shounen great again?
Use cooking.

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>>156731359
Strategic battles with limited powers

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>>156748781
sure

>>156749496
Make it JJBA then

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>>156739052
>DBS

>>156749522
>JJBA
JJBA is good, but also ground it in reality and make some characters pretty girls.

>>156749554
Yukako?
Reimi?
Shinobu?
Parts that aren't about morioh cho lack them, i agree.

>>156749582
Also make most of the battles morally ambiguous and sometimes for small stakes.

>>156749554
>Ground it in reality
Stop.

>>156749604
This. Battles for the greater good is neat and all but battles to settle a grudge or a rivalry without any ulterior motives or ideologies are just as cool if not even better.

>>156740998
And he never said that it was. He agreed and said his mind. Is autism necessary?

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>>156739052
>>156749546

>>156749519
Nice cherrypicking faggot.

>>156731359
13 ep power move charging

>>156746749
>that flip
>the ruse and kicking with the other leg
this must be one of the most hilariously bad pieces of DBS I've seen so far

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>>156750150
Want some more? You're welcome to post any scene from Super that's comparable to these, friendo.

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>>156750796

>>156749519
>looney tunes explosion at the end

>>156750926
that's from kai not the original
kai made a lot of things look ugly and saturated as fuck sadly

>>156751080
>>156751136
In Kai there's no weight or power behind anything.

god bless the nigga posting these webms

>>156732831
>Ippo
OXYGEN

>>156731359
>ctrl+f No world trigger
You need to stop waste time at the new old shit and read world trigger.

Been saying it forever, the Super fans are cancer. They eat shit and love it. They welcome the worst of what the industry has to offer and make excuses for it.
Fuck these people.
The industry is dead until somebody starts paying animators to take time and really use their talent.

>>156751302
So basically we need more studios like KyoAni

Only one thing needs to be done, GET RID OF SUPER POWERS

>>156731359
>unique premise or a unique take on a overused premise
>using strategy in battles
>colorful cast that doesn't get ignored for the sake of the mc and his rival
>don't drag arcs for too long
>explore the world and don't stay in the same place for too long
>don't make the characters too dark and dull, make it so it they were real it would be fun to hang out with them

>>156751392
wouldn't that make it an mma sport anime tho?

Stop comparing hand drawn anime from the late 80's to 2017 where it's way more commercial and corporate, drawn on computers with insane crunch times and less animators than ever.

>>156731359
Only children and retards like battle shounen. So unless you're black or can go back in time there's literally nothing that can be done.

The only potentially enjoyable part of any such titles is the introduction of the characters and the first, more lighthearted arcs, before the ""real plot"" begins. It's the same thing with capeshit movies, which is why Marvel keeps producing movies based on different characters instead of really milking the old ones.

People complain about the editors' interference in shounen manga, but the truth is they know perfectly what they're doing. Shounen manga is not art, no one cares what the author has to say, it only exists to entertain kids and keep them coming for more, and editors know all the tricks in the book. In video game terms it would be the equivalent to Skinner's box mobile game design.

>>156749519
Why does a glowing beam have a shadow?

>>156731359
How do we make Krillin great again?

>again
They were trash from the start.

>>156751817
I'd explain it but you wouldn't understand.

>>156735597
That's why I love Jojo so much. Creative battles that are mostly about using tactics instead of power level bullshit. Even the weakest Stand can be a serious threat.

>>156731359
its simple

we kill the krillin

discord: https://discord.gg/9kkEZZb

>>156749703
I bet you watch Gungrave almost everyday just to get that fix.

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>>156751302
Better animation couldn't even save Super

>>156751215
*super

>>156731359
Make it monthly instead of weekly.

>characters and story first
>fights are a reward, the treat
>power ups and gaps based on pre established laws and rules. No marysues.
>powers and skills are earned
>NO FILLER, STORY MUST END

If you keep drawing out the franchise for profit, then the quality will drop off a cliff.

>>156755522
>If you keep drawing out the franchise for profit, then the quality will drop off a cliff.

That's exactly what happened to Dragon Ball after Cell, and Yu Yu Hakusho after the Dark Tournament

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>>156732831
>>156732831
>Hero Aca
>Have a chance to make an interesting story
>Gives the MC the blandest power instead (I'll admit though that there would have to be some story changes if they didn't just give him ofa)
>Have the chance to give the MC use his power in an interesting way and have him actually use it like that in one fight
>Proceed to give him a generic full body auru skill
>Give MC rival a weakness but never actually show it/just flat out ignore it

>OPM
>You mean "Hey we already know the journey AND the ending of every fight" the series

>Ippo
>OXYGEN
>YAMATO DAMSHI

>>156749546
I thought Gohan vs. Basil was a great fight because there was a sense of danger and urgency missing in previous episodes.

>>156731359
By having great fights and characterization

>>156756615
You must be so fucking boring holy shit

>>156736147
Except there are creative and tactical OPM fights. Like during Ma arc

>>156731359
Just make Togashi do HxH again