Dragon Ball Super

>>156005647
I miss Future Trunks, sans the bullshit semi-god form more.

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>>156005647
No, but I miss Faulconer. If Super had his soundtrack it might actually be good... Just kidding, not even godlike Faulconer can save Super.

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The Lord is always with me.

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>>156005647
Nope.

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Guys, I really want to ask you something.

Am I the only one who is happy to see C-17 this strong?

And it does make sense to me, he trained for years non-stop.

Also, since he refused to protect the universe, he can also ignore buu.

No incoherence to me, since we know they can grow stronger, also with unlimited stamina.

Freezer did the same thing, he was strong as SSJ without training, then decide to train to attain SSB's level, imagine C-17, a cyborg with unlimited stamina, which allow him to train longer and longer, doing the same thing but with a slower progress (10 years I think).

Also we don't know how he trained but he trained himself.

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Not really, but i miss Black.

>>156005756
So Saiyans need zenkai boosts, time chambers, and god ki training from Whis to level up to SSB but Frieza/Androids and probably Cell/Buu just need to keep lifting?

>>156005769
>evil doppelgänger

Turl... I mean Black is such original and exciting character.

>>156005647
>>156005769
I actually missed black when his true identity was yet to be revealed. When he's just zamas, it took away most of the magic. It's something like that cigarette-smoking dude in X-files.

>>156005824
Yes, Toriyama stated that 17 has a great potential.

This is probably why messing up with humans body is prohibited among gods, because it can go too far.

>>156005756

Frieza's and 17's power boost is absolutely retarded. Keep eating shit you dirty spics.

>>156005824

Well duh, monkeys are just monkeys, Frieza is a spermmonster, Buu is an eldritchmonster and androids are androids.

>>156005865
But you're the Pedro one.

>>156005756
The problem isn't that he's so strong, it's the fact that he can apparently fight with Goku at SSB which is even stronger than when he fought Beerus that's the problem

>>156005865

Getting triggered about power levels is the spiccest thing anon, you are the sanchez.

>>156005905
He trained, he can train much longer than anyone else with his unlimited stamina, also goku hasn't paying attention to Earth so he never noticed 17.

Also freezer did it before 17 in only two month, he was born with a great power without training.

17 was SSJ level without training.

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Reminder that Goku's name is "Gokou"
Beerus is "Beers"
Buu is "Boo"
Mr. Satan real name is "Mark"
17 and 18 names are "Lapis" and "Lazuli"
and nobody knows Turtle Hermit's name, same about his sister

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5kEYa8jYmg
How do japs compete?

>>156005969
why didn't 17 fight buu? He could have probably one shotted him

>>156005910

Inconsistent writing is objectively bad. Keed defending the indefensible, Zorro.

>>156006010
As I said, he ignored buu, if he can refuse to save the universe, why caring about buu in the first place?

>>156006027
Except that you can't disprove my point.

You're the one triggered here about DB powerlevels , kind of sad

>>156006030

That, or Japs can't write for shit.

What was Android 17 doing when Buu was fucking up the earth?

>>156006030

It doesn't make sense. He has a wife and child, but doesn't care if they're erased too. He protects the forest but doesn't care if the planet is blown up. It's not consistent. If he was that strong, why not fuck Freeze up before he blows up the planet?

>>156006197
As I said, he ignored buu, just like he ignored the multiverse tournament

>>156006228
You don't even know when has his child, adopted his two childs.

Probably between the end of Buu's arc and the actual tournament.

>>156005969
>goku hasn't paying attention to Earth so he never noticed 17.

And nobody else noticed him at all?

>>156006265
What are YOUR sources?

What I'm saying is credible, since he refused to save the universe when he has a family, why caring about buu of he was probably alone?

You don't know, we don't know, we can only assume for now but my words does make sense.

>>156006265
Beerus know him because he was popular among the universe, did you watch DB?

Beerus was also aware of King vegeta.

17 is a cyborg, not a normal human, did you ask yourself why it's prohibited among gods to do what gero has done?

Just like traveling around time, because it's very dangerous

>>156006197
He was protecting the MINOTAUROSSU

>>156005969
Yeah, but Goku is a deity, Vegeta had to get special training from an angel to get that power, 17 just somehow getting to that level is bullshit

>>156006290
He don't have ki, so you can't sense him.

Why the other should care about 17? C-18 was busy with her life, goku could have cared about 17 since he want to fight strong guys

>>156006197

He helped Goku's genki dama, didn't he.

Super is garbage, not even GT shits on DB this much.

So Super is pretty badly written.

But what is the WORST written thing so far?

My vote is either Krillin able to fight back against Super saiyan blue Goku's kamehameha just by working out with weights, or Trunk's Sword of plot device.

>>156006329
Who is freezer?

What is a cyborg who already surpassed saiyans before?

>>156006329
So it's OK for pride troopers to be SSB level without being gods?

>>156006350
Because he listened to Goku's word and he just has to lift his arms.

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With the regular space alien invasions earth is having now Dragonball is starting to feel like a traditional superhero series.

>>156006350
Fuck off Pedro!

>>156006336
Dende never thought to bring up this Android climbing up to SSJB powerlevels to fucking ANYONE during BoG saga or to Piccolo who resides there?

Its shitty writing.

>>156006398
Pride Troopers are from a different Universe.

>>156006483
Well, it's also shitty writing that beerus appear from nowhere in DB, that vegeta was already aware of him.

Maybe dende wasn't paying attention to 17 neither, we don't know when he was aware of him

>From a different universe
>Somehow it make more sense

They're not gods and are SSB level, you can't make excuse for them ans saying 17 can't.

>>156006483
No one knowing about 17's growth is less stupid than no one knowing about Goten and Trunks being able to go super saiyan since half the cast can sense power from across the globe and even out into space.

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>>156005756
Thanks man!

Those spics will finally shut the fuck up now!

>>156006565
This so much.

Db fanbase is full of retarded manchild.

>>156006543
That is shitty writing, too. Well done.
For someone monitoring the Earth he's pretty shitty, then. He picked up Uub but not someone exponentially stronger? Thats fucking stupid and it is bad writing.

A different Universe means they aren't constrained to the story like #17 is. They can be however strong they are written to, its keeping it consistent that counts.

>>156006398
We don't know Marcarita DIDN'T give Toppo and Grayylmao any training, after all Toppo is apparently training under U11s GoD

>>156006398
>so it's OK for totally unknown people with unknown stories from an unknown universe to be SSB level
Why not?

>>156006660
Since 17 doesn't have Ki, it may be harder to sense him when you don't care about him in the first place.

>Lul in another universe they can do what they want

This is retarded, they are still no gods but are SSB levels

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>>156005647
>Do you miss him?

The sword didn't.

>>156006682
Same goes for you, you don't know.

>>156006708
Because they're not gods, otherwise, they would have God ki

>>156005702
What even the dubs don't have it?

>>156006730
>they're not gods
So? god =/= SSB tier

>>156006755
pretty sure kai didint even have it

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>>156006660
>For someone monitoring the Earth he's pretty shitty, then.
The celestial hierarchy continue being a bunch of incompetent clowns, big shocker.

>>156006709
>Dende could sense him
>No its hard to sense him
Stop with the headcanon lad, its embarrassing

Pride troopers are from a totally different setting. It also said that Toppo is being looked at as the next god of destruction of that universe, so, like vegeta, it makes sense that he would be trained in the same fashion.

>>156006776
Thanks for proving my point, 17 can be SSB tier by training, just like freezer because of potential, being a cyborg, unlimited stamina... Etc

>>156006290
Nope nobody noticed him. But fat space jew poachers from the other side of the galaxy knew where the last Minotaur was, and all about that Island.

Not 17 though. He's an enigma.

>>156006813
And you don't know shit either, it's you who assume that dende should have sense him without knowing anything about how he sensed him in the first place.

You don't know shit about Toppo, all we know for now is that he's not a God..

>>156006817
>SSB tier =/= god
>therefore 17 can be SSB tier by training
HAHAHAHA OK buddy

>>156006817
One is a mutant of his race. The others are from a different Universe. Humans, unlimited stamina and robotic parts or not, are pretty much capped in terms of strength.
Also he is an Android, not a cyborg fuccboi.

>>156006850
Searching for something in purpose can give you better result that finding something without caring about it in the first place

http://www.strawpoll.me/12584564

>>156006856
Well what excuse do you have for freezer?

>>156006875
>Capped

Nice headcanon.

Toriyama stated himself that they can progress.

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Why are you guys saying 17 is SSB level? Unless Goku goes all out in one of his forms or uses SSB KK, we can't correctly gauge his opponent's power level since we have no way of telling how much he is holding back. For all we know, 17 could be around Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku level which is still a pretty big jump in power and well below SSB. You should probably wait for his feats at the tournament before chimping out.

>>156006364
Super Saiyan Blue and Resurrection F

>>156006875
No he's a cyborg, but only machine humans 17, 18 and 20 are cyborgs (and 8 depending on who you ask) all the rest are actually androids

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>>156006336
Wrong. Piccolo can, in fact, sense the androids, as can kami.
When they merged, Piccolo could sense them.
Stop with this headcanon bullshit.

>>156006912
SSJ3 tier would still be kinda shitty, but at least that I could believe

>>156006940
>Named Android #17

>"H-he's actually a cyborg"

>>156005647
No. His whole arc was shit anyway

>>156006951
He searched for them before in purpose, dende doesn't have to.

Maybe he discovered 17 in Super by accident, maybe something happened in earth when Goku has gone training with Whis, you don't know.

>>156006976
No the english dub called him android because the japanese name translation is too long

>>156006976
You might want to look up the definition of Cyborg and Android. In every language except english they're called Cyborg 17 and 18. This also explains why 18 could have a kid with Krillin, and how 17 can have a kid with his wife.

>>156006976
Did you fall for the translation meme?

Fucking retard.

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>>156006976

I miss 17's cocky attitude. He matured too much.

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>>156006912
17 even going up to 3 still feels weird to me, that would make him beyond Super Perfect Cell who absorbed 17 and still barely reached super saiyan 2 levels.

I know this has mostly been a meme for a while now. But the Gero creations having such gargantuan potential makes me feel like we really will get a Cell revival arc.

>>156007047
This desu
He's still cool, but he's so boriiiiiiing

>>156006996
>MAYBE

>>156006709
>IT MAY BE

>>156006543
>MAYBE

These are words you should avoid when trying to prove a point fuccboi.

>>156007049
I still think that 17 is SSB tier, what gero has done isn't prohibited among gods for nothing.

>>156006895
23rd Tournament>King Piccolo>22nd Tournament>The rest

>>156007068
Same goes for you, you don't know shit, wait for the next episode.

Db fanbase is full of retarded manchild.

>>156006906
>What excuse do you have for the guy already excused by being a mutant alien and the strongest mortal in the entire universe since his birth with a ridiculously huge potential according to the original manga, some guides and its own movie?
>also "Freezer"

>>156006976
His name is No. 17.

>>156007112
>Potential

Toriyama stated that 17 has great potential

>Mutant

17 is a cyborg with unlimited stamina.

>>156007077
Source?

>>156007139
Source?

>>156007112
You're aware that it was already fucked up that gero was able to create cyborg with SSJ levels and infinite stamina without the need to train them right?

Why is it OK for freezer again?

>>156007167
Are you retarded?

Did you not see Toriyama's interview stating that?

>>156007174
Frieza is established. He has an entire empire for a reason. His potential is stated in both the material and outside of it.

>>156007230
And cyborg came out of nowhere, somehow they're SSJ levels.

King vegeta was also know around the universe but was pretty weak.

>>156006976
He is actually named Dr. Gero's Artificial Human No. 17

>>156006912
>>156006972
>Boo arc SS3 Goku tier
The funny thing is, Goku's base is even stronger than SS3 Goku at Boo arc in the anime
Base Vegeta was strong enough to humiliate SS3 Gotenks a year before (jelly Vegeta filler arc) so just imagine how strong base Goku is now. Goku could train with the entire team just using his base form, besides Vegeta Beerus and Whis, no one in the entire universe is strong enough to force him to go SS.

>>156007210
Look, I'm not on anyone's side but you've posted that all throughout this thread and the last thread with no source or anything to back it up and you lash out like a baby when questioned.
You can shut up alot of people here with source. So why not just get it out of the way if it exists?

>>156007266
Pretty much this

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>>156007197
That's hot.

>>156007250
What is your point?

>all these people forgetting that even Beerus was shocked by Freeza's loss to Goku

>>156007275
It was posted numerous times before Jesus Christ, Toriyama stated recently that he has great potential.

Also, it was already stated years before super that 17 can grow stronger.

>>156007302
That if you accepted cyborg before, accepted freezer golden form, you shouldn't complain about 17's power.

>>156007326
Not that you goalpost moving retard, the fact that what happened was "prohibited by the gods"

Why does Beerus in the Battle of Gods arc seem different to how he was it the movie?

>>156007350
Yeah, just ignore the episode when cyborg was mentioned and beerus said that "I WILL DO AS IF I'VE HEARD NOTHING"

>>156007197
reverse search gives me nothing. give me the sauce, my good man

>>156007139
>Toriyama stated that 17 has great potential
Source? Also you forgot that even Kuririn, Ten, etc, has "great potential".

>17 is a cyborg with unlimited stamina.
He's a cyborg (which doesn't mean he's naturally strong as Freeza was, but the opposite) with unlimited ki-like attacks.

>>156007174
>Why is it OK for freezer again?
What about re-read the post? Freeza was established before and after his revival as a monster with a natural incredible power and huge potential in the manga and guides, 17's established as a regular human with cyborg parts which make him stronger, no more, you can't just say "lol training" and pretend it makes sense.

>>156007342
Who are you arguing with you spic retard?
I never said I accepted #17. He was, in fact, a last minute addition because Gero and #20 were scrapped as the main villains.

>>156007379
That's not because the cyborgs are prohibited by the gods lmao,that's because their augmentations can be considered as weapons in the ToP so they would technically be disqualified. What Gero has done itself isn't prohibited by the gods, it was the ToP's rules that shouldn't allow jinzoningen. Otherwise I agree with you by the way.

>>156007350
Watch episode 83

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>>156007396
Here you go my friend.
blob:http://imgur.com/9bb574da-7b8c-410a-9d1c-3c340bfe7e13

>>156007379
Because weapons aren't allowed, fuccboi.

>>156007424
>Considered as weapon

Nice headcanon

>>156007440
Fuck my autism.
Here http://i.imgur.com/j9qev3i.jpg

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>>156007379
>>156007425
Wasnt that because of the Tournament of Power's rules?

Where did this "Prohibited be the gods" come from? Top fucking kek, you headcanon retards never cease to amaze to try to justify your shitty theories.

>>156007455
Holy shit you're retarded. That's EXACTLY what happened in the episode, but somehow it's headcanon, but the fact that enhancing humans with cybernetic parts is PROHIBITED by the gods, which has never been explicitly stated or mentioned before or after is somehow canon?

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>>156007460
much appreciated
>>156007444
also checked

>>156007424
I'm actually the guy who started the argument about C-17's power, where did I said that it's prohibited among gods.

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Leaks are out.

Looks like you Gogetafags can finally shut up.

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>>156007520

>>156007515
See >>156007077
Probably wasn't you, but that claim is being thrown around right now with literally zero evidence for it.

>>156007379
The fuck?

Did we watch the same episode?

Prohibited by the gods for use in the Tournament.
At no point does it say or state that #17 and #18's making was "Prohibited".

>>156007520
wew

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>>156007520
I only have myself to blame

>>156007549
Wow, that level of autism.

That's my problem with DB fanbase, they either complain about anything with shitty claims of defend something with shitty claims.

>>156007077


>Prohibited among gods

Where did this even came from?

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>still no leaks

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Android #17 can somehow get up to Super Saiyan Blue levels with very little training, fucking around on an island?
It took Goku and Vegeta 3 years in the room of spirit and time, training with a fucking Deity and the looming threat of their world being destroyed to get to this level.

Is this the worst writing in the series so far?

Hopefully 17 being in the tournament will mean he gets more fanart.

>>156007597
I think it's a tactic, trying to make those who defend 17's power look like a bunch of retard.

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>>156007520
There's a special place in hell for people like you anon.

>>156007646
No.

That award goes to 90% of Super in general.

>>156007665
can you explain his post
is the joke just saying gogeta is real but he isn't

I don't frequent dbs not general

>>156007646
All of this would have been avoided if they never let Goku use the Super Saiyan form. In the Resurrection F movie, he says that he doesn't need to use it until he has to. What changed?

>>156007646
>Very little training

You don't know, 17 is a cyborg, Freezer is an alien, not your average saiyan.

>>156005647

Yes. He was the only true new villain in Super, unless you count Goku Black as a separate character.

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>still no mod with SSG-SSB Vegeta for Tenkaichi 3 or Xenoverse 2

>>156007695
Eh? Didnt say anything about freeza. That is equally shitty writing but this takes the cake.

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Thoughts on the Kanzenshuu forums community?

>>156007725
If you don't pronounce Saiyan correctly, you are gonna get banned. This is your warning.

>>156007715
Well if you accepted freezer, then it must be the same for 17, not your average human/saiyan, the other universe also proved that you don't need God ki to attain SSB-tier

>>156007690
Lurk for two years before posting please

original meme:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=petqFm94osQ

>>156005824
When they refer to humans, they refer to mortals.

Saiyans are mortals.

>>156007782
I DON'T accept Friezas massive jump either. What the fuck are you talking about?

>>156007877
Then stop watching DB at this point.

C-17's power make even more sense since he needed 10 years for that when freezer only needed 2month

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>>156007782
Is english your first language? I've seen you post throughout this thread and you seem to misinterpret conversations.
>Guy says he thinks Frieza's power jump is ridiculous
>You said he accepted it so he should accept Cyborg #17's power jump

>>156007933
Not at all, I assumed that if this guy still watch DBS after ROF, then he has probably accepted freezer's power.

>>156007989
>I assumed

Yeah you did, Pedro.

>>156008042
You're the Pedro one for complaining about powerlevels in DB.

Why do you still watch DB after ROF?

>>156008061
Im not even the guy you are arguing with, I just find it fascinating that you are trying to assimilate into an anime board by arguing in your shitty broken english.

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since the tournament prohibits external items, and encourages techniques, will we see his canon appearance?

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>>156008126
Butthurt?

>>156008168
Gogeta was planned to be used in Dragon Ball but Toei wanted to make a movie out of it. Instead, Toriyama made Vegetto and Vegetto is here to stay.

So who's to blame for the 'inconsistencies' regarding powerlevels/scaling?

Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro or all of them?

>>156008211
All of them without exception.

Toriyama is the most guilty though.

>>156008211
Toriyama for writing such a loose outline and rushing out the anime content.
Toei for their bad writing and poor exe4cution
Toyotaro is doing the best he can to keep power levels and God Ki still authentic.

>>156008211
Toriyama alone is responsible for Resurrection F's Golden Freeza, so..

>>156008240
Yeah, SSJ BLACK>SSB VEGETA make so much sense right?

>>156008266
>trying to apply your ningen logic to a Godly deity
pathetic

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>>156008240

>>156006228
I thought the androids can't sense power levels. He probably didn't even know Frieza landed. Buu was all over the news, so depending on if he was watching it or not during his park ranger adventures, he probably considered it but figured he'd wait for Buu to approach his home, since he couldn't track him. There's also a good chance he was killed during the human extinction attack, but maybe not.

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>>156008297
except it's Toyotaro that's getting his shit reviewed by Toriyama and working alongside him.

>>156008286
>Exchange body with a human somehow make you powerful
>Being more weak than vegeta SSJ then become stronger than SSB vegeta

Pathetic

I guess it was also OK for Anime black if we follow your logic.

>>156008197
but i mean, wouldnt he be a good idea to use in a desperate situation during the tournament? i love vegito, but damn, i'd lose it if gogeta buru were a thing

>>156008344
That's why Toriyama stated that 17 ha great potential right?

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>>156008346
Zamasu has a Godly Soul, his base god ki could be the result of his skewed power level.
Whatever you say means jack shit in comparison to what is already established in the story and it's quite consistent.

>>156008346
>with a human
Wrong out of the gate, Jesus fuck.

>he thinks ningen was used to mean 'humans' and not 'mortals'

>>156008346
Don't forget how Trunks confirmed that Black's base was stronger than SS3 Goku and SS2 Trunks.

>>156006912
Obviously they were keeping at pace with each other. 17 holding back doesn't mean Goku held back the same amount. Goku probably held back way more just to see how much 17 could keep increasing. They were baiting each other. Goku always does that

>>156008370
>MUH DIVINE SOUL

Doesn't explain shit, it's only interpretation so far.

>Zenkai is tied to soul

This autism...

>>156008405
>>Zenkai is tied to soul

It is now, deal with it.

>>156008379
But Toyotaro is consistent right?

>>156008405
God Soul + SSJ form = Rose
Black = base form = god soul power level
It's not complicated.

>>156008379
>>156008440
Wait so
>Base Black stronger than SS3 Goku and SS2 Trunks
>As SS2, he lost to SS Vegeta
I thought the manga made more sense???

>>156008422
Nice headcanon

>>156008379
He never specifically stated he was referring to his base, a chapter later he confirms that he has even seen Black transform into ssj

>>156008422

Retard please go

>>156008480
It is or else Goku and Vegeta being resurrected would have skewed the diminishing returns of zenkais.

>>156008484
And on their last fight before going to the past, black didn't have to because he improved

>>156008484
>he has even seen Black transform into ssj
Reaching much? Black defeated SS2 Trunks at the beginning of this arc. Also, Trunks said he hasn't seen Black's SS form in AWHILE which suggests that Black doesn't use it often.

>>156008506
This is retarded and has nothing to support beside Toyotaro's inconsistencies.

Leaks when?

>>156008514
It's not reaching, it's just the basics without any added speculation.
Find me a quote of him specifically referring to base form.

>>156008543
He defeated trunks SSJ2 in base form retard.

>>156008531
How is it retarded if it's logical? You're just stupid.
Even if you don't want to talk about Zamasu's intent to exploit zenkais with his new saiyan body (which Goku has already pushed to the limit with his soul +body paring) you could argue that Zamasu's endgame was merging the saiyan form with his godly spirit as posted above >>156008370

>>156008543
It's common sense you idiot.

At the start of this arc, Base Black defeated SS2 Trunks - who is even with SS3 Goku. Trunks mentioned how Black is even "stronger than that."

Black never needed to use SS on Trunks after he became strong enough to handle him in base.

>>156008563
So?
Trunks was starving for a year eating dog food, if you think he was fighting at the same capacity as his Full powered SSJ2 form after a full stamina recovery from a senzu bean you're delusional.

>>156008568
You're only implying shit, we don't know where goku's body came from in the Manga, it was Also never stated that zenkai is tied to soul.

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>>156008582
>Trunks was starving for a year eating dog food
Oh god, here we go with the "Trunks was malnourished" headcanon again..

>>156008580
There's absolutely no proof that a starving Trunks ever used Full Throttle SSJ2 when he was fighting Base Black.

>>156008582
You're truly retarded, reaching this hard.

>>156008597
This is common for mangafags, don't mind them.

>>156008615
This.

>>156008592
>it was Also never stated that zenkai is tied to soul.
It is because Goku can't get zenkais, Zamasu's soul in Goku's body however can.

>>156008607
And you have no proof about the contrary, how do you know that he was that much weakened?

>>156008582
>Trunks was starving for a year eating dog food
Nice meme.

>>156008636
It doesn't matter, the burden of proof still lies on you.
From the very first chapters Goku's power level fluctuated from being hungry or not, this is the case for all saiyans.

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>it's another "I don't understand a manga for kids" episode

>>156008626
God, how can you be so retarded?

TRUNKS STATED THAT THEY TRAINED THEIR BODY TO THE LIMITS!

That's why they can't use zenkai anymore, BODY, do you even read the Manga?

>>156008662
>This is the case of all saiyan.. Nice headcanon.

It's up to you to prove that trunks was that much weakened.

All we know, it's that he was defeated in SSJ2 by black base form.

>>156008670
How can you be so stupid?
That statement alone confirms the fact that Zamasu's soul is what let him reset zenkais with Goku's saiyan cells.
Do you think Zamasu in the manga magically abducted a Goku from a different age or something?

>>156008696
>Zamasu soul
>Reset zenkai

>>156008686
>All we know, it's that he was defeated in SSJ2 by black base form.
Yes and that doesn't prove jack shit because SSJ2 is not the same thing as Full Powered SSJ2 demonstrated against Goku.

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Toyotaro is more consistent, they said.
Power levels in the manga make sense, they said.
Animefags BTFO, they said.

>>156008714
all those things are true, you're right Mr. Toriyama.

>>156008710
So why holding back against the one who who killed your mother and the one you love?

>>156008709
It either resets or is just purely connected and tied to the soul of the user not the flesh.

>>156008760
That's the problem, there is no direct statement about that.

At this point, Goku and Vegeta should just give their body to shin and kibito.

>>156008737
Because I believe FPSSJ2 is somewhat similar to SSJ3,and that there is a stamina drain/price to pay to attain that power output.
Every bit of stamina/life energy was precious and his mission was to reach the past not be extinguished like a flame.
A starving Trunks clearly would have less power than a fully healed (senzu) FPSSJ2 Trunks (stated that a senzu makes you feel full as if you don't need to eat for 10 days)

>>156008805
>That's the problem, there's no direct statement contradicting my headcanon so I can't accept I'm wrong

>>156008828
You don't know shit, you're only interpreting so far.

>>156008868
>you don't know shit
check the mirror mate.

>>156008843
Same goes for you.

It's not headcanon, zenkai was always tied to body in DB, it's just your God who is trying to make it tied to soul without any explanation.

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>when a retarded writer makes the right decision by accident and scales back
cant wait for muten roshi and other weak humans to blow these aliens the fuck out

>>156008888
>zenkai was always tied to body in DB
*citation needed*
If it was, how come nothing changed when people kept dying and getting new bodies and such?

>>156008885
How do you know about trunks power when he was in th future?

Do you have a scouter?

>>156008888
>is trying to make it tied to soul without any explanation.
There's plenty of explanation and it's logical.
Unlike what we've got so far from Toei, hell Black's broken Zenkai was a spit in the face for anyone who actually likes a shred of logic.

>>156008914
>Getting new bodies

Nice headcanon, goku was allowed to keep his body, same goes for vegeta.

>>156008370
Zamasu having killed all mortal life seemed a lot more impressive before we learned universe 7 only had 28 planets with it on.

>>156008931
Did you see me talking about the Anime?

Even if it's less shit, it's still shit, there is no explanation about zenkai being tied to soul.

>>156008922
He clearly wasn't FPSSJ2, FPSSJ2 is holding back Rose Black right now, that's Trunks fighting on a different scale as what was presented in the past.

>>156008958
>there is no explanation about zenkai being tied to soul.
except there is? How else would you explain the fact that Goku in Goku's body can't exploit zenkais but Zamasu in Goku's flesh can?

>>156008968
Surprise isn't the same, piccolo was able to hurt freezer final form.

>Clearly

Again, assuming bullshit.

>>156008983
IT'S RETARDED!!

How zenkai can be tied to soul?

How?

>>156007266
Actually, according to BoG, Goku's base with SSG absorbed is even stronger than Super Vegito.

>>156009005
>How?
How not is it tied to the soul? Clearly it's the soul that's going through the near death experience only to reemerge with a stronger connection to the physical body.
The flesh is clearly only 1 component of the equation.

Are the implications of the shitty 28 Planets thing supposed to be that Goku and Beerus accidentally destroyed the universe? Because that may still be fucking stupid, but I'll at least accept it

>>156009031
It's their body who escape death after being damaged as fuck!

Again, you're assuming shit, even trunks said that goku and Vegeta can't use zenkai because they trained their BODY to the limit.

>>156009016
That's according to toriyama's interviews.
Which only serves to show how shortsighted he is because anyone who can scratch base Goku is on the same level as the first appearance of SSJG.

>>156009059
Just accept the fact that souls are integral to the a fictional plot about people dying and being resurrected by wish balls.
They visit the spirit realm and the living world is not the end all be all in this universe.

>>156009099
>Just accept my headcanon

Nope, no explanation so far, even trunks back up my words.

In the realm world, goku and Vegeta were allowed to keep their body, nice try

>>156009123
>In the realm world, goku and Vegeta were allowed to keep their body, nice try
This basic fact has nothing to do with losing their bodies or not, can you simply explain to me why Goku can't use zenkais like Black? No? then fuck off.

>>156009152
TRUNKS SAID IT RETARD!

They trained their body to the limits!

It's up to you to explain why black is allowed to use zenkai and not goku

>>156009152
So, inconsistencies is ok when Toyotaro does it?

>>156009183
>They trained their body to the limits!
No I read the raws Trunks says they hit their limit, any Goku body that Zamasu could have stolen would have had just as much diminishing returns as the Goku now.
>>156009183
>It's up to you to explain why black is allowed to use zenkai and not goku
I already did, clearly the zenkais are for Zamasu-Black, not for Goku. (Nor his spirit or flesh)

>>156009206
What inconsistency? He helped clear up what was extremely retarded from the anime and salvaged it.

>>156009223
>Spirit meme

Trunks talked about their body, that's why he said "trained", he didn't said THEIR SOULS HAD TOO MUCH ZENKAI

So after DBS is over, who's ready for DB: Next Generation with the adventures of Pan, Uub, Bra, Marron and 17's kids?

>>156009271
>Cleared inconsistencies by another inconsistencies

Just because it's less retarded doesn't mean that it's great, it's still shit.

>>156009275
He says "pushed their bodies to their absolute limits"
Perhaps it's you that needs to reread the fucking chpater?
http://readms.net/r/dragon_ball_super/020/3970/16

>>156009303
Yes, bodies, thanks for proving my point.

>>156009293
What's so shit about a user's zenkai being tied to him and not his corporeal/flesh body?
What is so difficult to understand about Zamasu earning his own zenkais? What makes you think his progress is somehow tied to Goku's?

>>156009322
>bodies
yes, bodies inhabited by souls, explain to me the basic reason as to why Goku can't zenkai and Zamasu can? I'm still waiting.

>>156009327
Zenkai is a thing from SAIYANS BODY, not SOULS.

The contrary is retarded as fuck, goku and Vegeta should just give their body to anyone else to have unlimited zenkai.

>>156009349
>Reaching this hard
I can't because it's retarded, should I accept this inconsistencies just because it's Toyotaro?

>>156009368
>Zenkai is a thing from SAIYANS BODY, not SOULS.
Yes and that's why Zamasu stole a saiyan body, what's your fucking point?

>>156009380
No. Zamasu didn't know about zenkai before taking Goku's body.

>>156009368
>Zenkai is a thing from SAIYANS BODY, not SOULS.
How do you steal a soul dipshit?

>>156009380
How can he use zenkai if goku's body already HAD ABUSED ZENKAI?

>>156009400
>Reaching this hard

I guess ginyu has also reset zenkai when he used goku's body right?

>>156009398
Mangacucks are that retarded to the point of ignoring their own manga

>>156009402
>How can he use zenkai if goku's body already HAD ABUSED ZENKAI?
Because clearly Zenkai are psychological/spirit based.
There's not a shred of evidence dictating that it's literal physical cell division and regeneration that is making their skin thicker.
Ki is spiritual energy, the whole god damn franchise is about a spiritual journey.

>>156009398
Says who? Shin clearly states that was his grand plan in chapter 20

>>156009402
The spirit of a god fucked up the body and it resulted in weird side effects. Black himself didn't seem to understand it very well.

>>156009448
>I'm assuming shit, believe me.

Then Goku and vegeta should just give up their own bodies, give it to the other for unlimited zenkai

>>156009476
So it's the same as the Anime with the edgy scythe right?

>Lul I don't get it it's OK

Again, only assuming shit.

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>>156009398
>lying on the internet
what is wrong with you?

>>156009511
Yes, it was only an excuse to have Black get stronger over time.

>>156009512
Zenkai Grand Plan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anime's broken joke Zenkai.

>>156009512
Black straight up says he thought would immediately have Goku's powers the minute he acquired his body. He thought about how he could unlock its potential, but then he learned about zenkais.

Read the chapter.

>>156009546
Just like in the Manga then?

God's spirit resolve everything then.

Kibito and shin should have Goku and Vegeta's bodies.

>>156009550
It's still shit because goku isn't supposed to be able to use zenkai again, Trunks stated that himself.

>>156009551
Doesn't change the fact his plan was to abuse Zenkais which he succeeded in.

>>156009572
>goku isn't supposed to be able to use zenkai again
and he doesn't, that's Zamasu.

>>156009475
>>156009512
Shin is not Black.

Black himself says he only discovered Zenkai's existed well after he took over Goku's body.
and that was just a fortunate development for him as he originally only expected to start out as strong as Goku.

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I love how everyone is finding excuse for the Manga but somehow it's wrong to defend at any point the Anime.

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>>156009574
I don't care. Your (or whoever that anon was) argument was that Zamasu ALWAYS knew about the zenkai when he didn't.

Do you mangafags even read your own shit?

Dragon Ball Super sucks
good thing the manga is doing well.

>>156009592
Body's capability/=/soul

Zamasu's soul/=/zenkai

>>156009620
The Manga isn't selling shit, it's beaten by a shitton of series.

However, the Anime is successful as fuck, to the point of attaining One piece popularity.

>>156009609
>tfw animefags know more about the manga than mangafags

>>156009668
Mangacucks are truly retarded, giving explanations when even their own author contradict them with trunks alone.

>>156009697
How is there any contradiction? Trunks states he stole the body but at no point does that prove that zenkais are tied to anything.

>>156009572
Or maybe zamasu used a body which haven't abused zenkai?

That is the best explanation.

>>156009572
>It's still shit because goku isn't supposed to be able to use zenkai again, Trunks stated that himself.
They explain that Goku Black's recovery boosts are due to his reborn cells adapting to his soul.

>>156009605
/ourguy/

>>156009718
Trunks talked about BODIES for zenkai, nothing about soul you're saying shit.

>>156009724
Did I finally see a good explanation?

You may be right in contrary of the other who are retarded.

>>156009609
Ok So i was wrong about the order of the plans.
Zamasu planned to steal the body of a saiyan before his Grand Zenkai Plan, big deal, the debate is still about whether or not Zenkais are tied to the body or spirit and clearly there's nothing that contradicts the statement about it being about the user, not his flesh.
The given explanation by Toyotaro is clearly easy to understand instead of the joke we get in the anime which didn't even attempt at explaining anything.

>>156009748
Because he wasn't able to control this body well before, he said if himself that he wasn't able to use this body at his fullest potential.

>>156009764
You have nothing to back up either when even trunks contradict your own statement.

>>156009750
>Trunks talked about BODIES for zenkai
No he didn't, he said they trained and pushed their bodies to the limit, not once does he ever state it's the body that carries the diminishing return of a power boost of the user.

>nothing about soul you're saying shit.
"My divine SOUL and this Saiyan's body are becoming one"
This is his endgame for attaining his SSGSS transformation.

>>156009779
And after that point we don't see getting any further Zenkai boosts either.

>>156009804
What Trunks has stated in English barely contradicts anything.
If the body is so important in saving the diminishing returns of a zenkai, how come Black/Zamasu can abuse it no problem? Check mate.

So who's going to job against Jiren the Grayy (besides Hit) Vegeta, Gohan or 17?

>>156009811
You're retarded.

They pushed THEIR BODIES TO THE LIMITS.

ALSO, zenkai HELPED ZAMASU TO HAVE A BETTER CONTROL, you're interpreting his own words.

He's basically saying that zenkai help him to merge with this body, he didn't explain why he can use zenkai.

>>156009833
It's retarded, we don't know why and how


>>156009838
Because it's inconsistencies, I pointed that out numerous times.

>>156009572
>Just like in the Manga then?
>God's spirit resolve everything then.
It appears so. It was a bit vague, like exactly why fusion of a mortal and immortal body results in an unstable body. Best we can do is guess.
>Kibito and shin should have Goku and Vegeta's bodies
I think that would be a bit out of character, but sure whatever.

>>156009838
Are you implying that Toyotaro can't make mistakes?

How can you be that retarded?

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>>156005647
Zamasu is the best character in all of fiction.

Don't know why they ruined everything with the asinine Spirit Sword.

If they wanted Trunks to put the finishing blow than Vegito should have weakened him enough to be enough for Trunks to kill him.

>>156009884
It's not an inconsistency, stop regurgitating the same tired excuse that it's the bodies being pusehed to the limits.
Clearly Zamasu's Zenkai-Grand-Plan is his goal to attain SSGSS by "merging his Godly Soul with this Saiyan's cells"
Nothing about bodies pushed to their limits come close to contradicting this statement.

>>156009911
It's inconsistent, it's just like the Anime in the end

>>156009884
"Better control" = higher power in this context. When he talks about being unable to use the full capabilities of his body he's obviously talking about power. So, he gets boosts from recovery due to what's outright explained in the manga - his reborn cells merging with his mind.

I don't get why you want to dismiss the explanation given there.

>>156009914
What mistake? The simple information he gave us that Zamasu can have a Zenkai is perfectly logical.
Stop trying to pair the saiyan flesh into the equation when clearly it doesn't.

>>156009946
Oh, so that's why. you want to equal the manga to the anime, even though the manga had an explanation, so you must dismiss the manga's explanation in order to achieve that. You're kind of silly.

>>156009945
It's you who're interpreting shit while ignoring trunks words, his plan was to use zenkai when he discovered it, no explanation about why he can use it.


>>156009958
Show me a quote where he explain why he can use zenkai!

Without interpretation.

>>156009972
Prove me the contrary then, so far you're only interpreting.

>>156009994
It's just retarded to defend the Manga's inconsistencies when it should be much better.

>>156009884
Goku and Vegeta's spirits/souls are already well merged with their saiyan cells from being pushed to the limits.
This statement does not contradict Zamasu's progression with a saiyan body whatsoever.

>>156010032
Show me a quote where vegeta talk about souls?

Or trunks talking about soul?

>>156010028
>Prove me the contrary then,
The manga and anime speak for themselves, we've discussed this shit a billion times over 2-3 months ago.
The user/soul is the one that experiences the zenkai, his flesh comes secondary.

>>156010070
That's why they always get zenkai after being damaged as fuck right?

Again, prove me the contrary

>>156010052
That statement was just an example taken from Zamasu explaining his zenkai power up.
It's you that needs to prove some kind of evidence because this "argument" has been one sided this whole thread.
I can always just bring it back to this initial post: >>156008370

>>156005647
Thanks doc.

>>156010090
>That's why they always get zenkai after being damaged as fuck right?
What the actual fuck are you talking about now?
Stop making a fool of yourself and try to rebuttal the actual argument and why you think zenkais should be tied to the flesh for Black.

>>156010097
Wow, he only explain here that he's more becoming one with the BODY, no explanation about zenkai beside that it help him to merge with goku's body

>>156010126
Because you have nothing to back up your claim.

>>156010127
Yeah merge his SPIRIT/SOUL.
Find me any statement that can prove why Goku can't use zenkais but Zamasu can.
Or better yet find me proof of how it's tied to the flesh and not the user himself.

>>156010155
What claim? That the soul of Zamasu is the one that's attaining the zenkais? What is so hard to wrap your head around?
Are you one of thos fanatic atheists that can't comprehend what a soul/spirit is? This is some basic shit.

>>156010166 #
Yeah, it's spirit, himself, merging with goku's body, making more able to use SSR since he need a better control.

So far, he only said that zenkai helped him to merge with the body.

>>156010166 #
So Toyotaro can't do inconsistencies?

>>156010184 #
He's merging with the body by using the same Body's capability which is ZENKAI.

Still no explanation about how he can use it.

>>156010241
Okay Paco I'm done arguing with your stupid ass.
No one here is stating Toyo can't do inconsistencies, You first need to find the inconsistency.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Zamasu experiencing his own zenkais in the flesh of another saiyan.

>>156010028
You do realize that "Zenkai" is a fan term, right? They only mention recovery. So, when they talk about his reborn cells , bonding his divine mind with his body, they are talking about what fans call a "Zenkai".

>>156010298
>His own zenkai in the body of another saiyan

How retarded you're?

>>156010300
I know, he only explain again that recovery help him to merge his spirit with the body.

>>156010300
Yeah a lot of idiots only know the fan concept and not the actual process because it's been an unexplored concept for some time.
Zenkai is just a japanese abbreviation for "Full Recovery"
全　= Zen = "all" "omni" "full"
回復 = "recover" "heal"

>>156010377
That doesn't change my words, how is it tied to soul?

Why somehow, zenkai is reset when someone else's soul is in a saiyan body?

Goku should give his own body to krillin.

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Do any of you think that this is actually a good show?

>>156010351
>>His own zenkai in the body of another saiyan
again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Zamasu experiencing his own bonding with his newly found host, there is absolutely zero literature that contradicts the bonding of his spirit to his cells making him stronger.

>>156010420
Why?

How is it possible to reset zenkai when it's obviously came from a saiyan's body?

How is it not retarded?

Goku and Vegeta should just give up their own bodies then.

>>156010410
It's not really reset as it is still tied to the users.
Goku still tied to his flesh and body, and Zamasu is merging with his own body.
Your tendency to stretch a concept into a dumb what if scenario is making you look extremely unintelligent when we're trying to discuss the basic facts we know about zenkais and how it's tied to the user and not his flesh alone.

>>156010351

Black mentions that when he took over the body he couldn't draw out all of Goku's power or even use SSJ satisfactorily.

So, the bonding of the body with his mind wasn't only to reach Rose, his base power itself was lower than what it should have been with Future Present Goku's body, which is he gets power boosts from his body bonding with his mind.

>>156010453
>How is it possible to reset zenkai when it's obviously came from a saiyan's body?
Because like I said previously it's not a reset but a clean slate.
Zamasu has a clean slate going in to experience some Zenkais, it was "reset" in the sense that whatever bonding Goku did with his flesh was unrelated to the work Zamasu put in.

>>156005647
I miss more the fight between him and Vegito. All that hype and fuckers gave us 5 minutes. What is wrong with them?

>>156010458
It's you who's Interpreting shit when not even black and trunks back up your claims.

>>156010467
Yes, he couldn't use perfectly goku's body, zenkai HELPED him to merge his spirit with the body, that's all we know, prove me that black give more explanation than that.

>>156010509
What do you mean I need characters to back up my claim? The debate rises from the simple fact that Goku has zenkais seperate from Zamasu in his flesh.
This is a basic concept and I'm done arguing with a retard like you over something so simple.

>>156010490
How?

How he can use a capacity from a body and somehow make it work better just because his SOULS never used it himself?

Ginyu should have kept goku's body, he would have been the strongest motherfucker.

>>156005830
At least Turles was a meta-joke about how all low-class mooks look the same. (Since Goku was born to be a low-class mook)

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>>156005647
I miss Torunkusu but other than that I'm glad we're past that bullshit arc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEHnyAtp9I

>>156010536
And you can't prove it.

So far, Trunks back up my words.

>>156010540
Why are you asking about something working better? That's not part of the discussion.
If you want to argue how Black's power is different you can always point back to the basic fact that he has a godly spirit. That factor alone can skew the power levels in whichever favor for the sake of plot.

>>156010536
You're the retard one Pedro, never see any explanation about it.

So far, this anon >>156009724 is the one who is not retarded.

>>156010560
No you retard the only thing Trunks said is that Goku and Vegeta has pushed their bodies to the limit.
This statement holes no barring on Zamasu pushing his newfound body to his limits whatsoever.
The fact that he even can proves that Goku's diminishing returns are not present when a new soul is trying to bond with the flesh.
My proof is in the pudding, the chapters speak for themselves. If it was otherwise then Goku's flesh should have already affected Zamasu's zenkai progress.

>>156010596
Zamasu can't go into the past you idiot.
He clearly didn't steal a body from the Saiyan saga either you mongoloid.

>>156010576
Then said it, don't talk like zenkai, somehow come back to zero when someone else use the body.

Just said it that it's just black spirits Fucking the Body's up, like In the Anime but in a less retarded ways.

>>156010596
So far, it's the best explanation, we don't know anything about the goku who was killed.

>back to other DBS thread
>toeishills still that scared about next manga chapter

Marvelous

>>156010637
There is 5-6 timeline.

Who know?

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>>156009609
so the body of goku that he took
that body already had ssj blue?

still lame, but at least better then the anime
so goku and vegeta don't get zenkai's anymore, but black gets hurt in the manga and he does get zenkai's
and in the anime, he just gets hit a few time and powers up right away from that

>>156010637
He could have gone to a timeline where goku died, resurrect him and stole his body, there is numerous possible explanations.

>>156010509
>Yes, he couldn't use perfectly goku's body,
And Black outright states that his power was lower than expected due to that.

>zenkai HELPED him to merge his spirit with the body, that's all we know,
Which raises his power since it's fixing the flaw that lowered it.

>prove me that black give more explanation than that.
There's no need for "more explanation than that".

>>156010690
No there isn't, stop whipping up headcanon just because you don't have an argument.
Occam's razor, look it the fuck up Paco.

>>156010681
>so the body of goku that he took
>that body already had ssj blue?
Not only it had SSJ Blue, it's stated that it should be stronger than current Goku's body since it comes from further into the future.

>>156010681
Like I said, the Anime is the top of inconsistencies but that doesn't mean that we should ignore the inconsistencies created by the Manga.

We can only guess about where black's body came from, if it's zenkai was at his limits or not.

>>156010704
Okay, I am already aware that black needed zenkai to merge more.

What I'm asking, is how he can use zenkai?

>>156010732
>we should ignore the inconsistencies created by the Manga.
What inconsistencies?

>We can only guess about where black's body came from
It comes from the future dipshit, not some magical new universe where he was super young and had no zenkais.

>>156010766
>is how he can use zenkai?
How can he not? He's still a zenkai virgin, do not mix up Goku bonding with his flesh with Zamasu's progress.

>>156010769
So it's inconsistent then.

No explanation about why he can use zenkai, just that he can.

Black, vegeta and trunks never explain that...etc

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>>156007197
moar!

>>156010795
But flesh is WHERE ZENKAI CAME FROM.

His cells are the who recover, zenkai help zamasu to merge more and be stronger.

Still no explanation about why he can use it.

>>156010795
Are you Toyotaro?

It's a legitimate question.

If so, why haven't you stated it in the Manga?

You love giving explanation to everything but you not for this one?

>>156010820
THICK

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>>156005671
Me too anon.