Instrumentality vs Tsukuyomi

>>155806975
>a plant and illusions
>all souls are one in primordial soup
Nigger, are you joking me?

>>155806975
Tsukuyomi was a better idea.
Everyone on Earth living in a fantasy.
That's everlasting happiness.

There was literally nothing wrong with the infinite tsukuyomi plan, which is why they had to pull the Jenova plot twist off their asses.

Madara would have done nothing wrong otherwise.

>>155806975
Come to think of it, Tsukuyomi and Instrumentality are basically polar opposites, two sides of the same coin.
One would isolate people in their own personal perfect fantasy world, while the other would unite all people into one.
Tsukuyomi is better, but Instrumentality still holds the potential to evolve.

>>155806975
Tsukuyomi is living a blissful lie, which is fine and all.
Instrumentality is literally global-scale self-actualization according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
I think tang wins this one.

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>>155806975
Tsukuyomi.
I rather live in a fantasy universe with everyone.

Tsukuyomi would eventually go wrong, someone would wake up or the magic tree would die.

>>155807034
>a plant and illusions

It's more accurate to say it was the matrix

>>155807864
It's exactly that.

>>155807160
Good point, from my personal perspective the matrixukuyomi is better but who knows what my perspective actually would be after the instrumentality. It is far more transcendental and unknown.

>>155807159
>One would isolate people in their own personal perfect fantasy world
Reminds me of that one fag from SMT Nocturne.

>>155807135
>There was literally nothing wrong with the infinite tsukuyomi plan
The people in it die after too long

>>155808536
I don't think Madara knew that at the time though, so it's a problem with the plan but not his intentions.

>>155808536
Also we die in real life after awhile too, the real problem is no new children are born. That's one thing the actual Matrix did better.

>>155808531
I know, it reminds me of him too.

>>155807075
>>155807135
>>155807159
>>155807160
>>155807656
>>155807864
>>155807972
>>155808476
>Tsukuyomi is better than Instrumentality
The Experience Machine is a decades old thought experiment that predates anime, and designed specifically to refute the hedonist principles underlying Tsukuyumi.

>>155809681
I didn't say it was good.

>>155807135
>removing agency from people isnt a bad thing
>i only believe this because im a social other-than relativist living in an environment where i cannot thrive and i refuse to try to adapt and the idea of a zero-effort paradise i am enslaved within makes me wet myself with glee

You people need serious help.

>>155810292
There's no inherent value in agency, it is a tool to achieve positive consequences. If we can get the consequences without agency it's irrelevant.

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Heaven is better than both, though.

>>155809681
Of the three Nozick's reasons to not use the machine there isn't any who refute the tsukuyomi. The pleasure machine and the tsukuyomi aren't the same thing at all.
The first only gives pleasure and the second gives the experience who provides the pleasure therefore nozick arguments doesn't stand against madara's.

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>>155806975
Third Destroy Finale

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I don't know about "Instrumentality" but wasn't the actual effect Infinite Tsukuyomi just to suck people's energy and nothing else?

>>155806975
>Which one was a better plan?
>discuss
While the Naruto plan makes everyone think they are living in heaven. As in making everyone happy mentally.

The Instrumentality is a form of Rapture. Specifically the idea that you will be happy by losing all your wants and needs by losing your bodies. The Bible never promised a real paradise, that was just Public Relations by the church. The entire image of an Abraham heaven was a lie from the very beginning and is still being taught in Sunday School today.

>>155806975

Zero Ningen plan. Because omnicide is the only true final solution, you cannot argue against this

>>155806975
HIT was better planned since it succeeded more or less.

>>155806975
what's it like to be soup?

>>155806975
Narutards grow cancerous by the second.

>>155813233

You're acting fifteen touching yourself in bed.

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>>155813292

>>155809681
>The Experience Machine
A shitty argument that doesn't refute anything

>>155810292
You can fuck right off mister

>>155806975
>Tsukuyomi
Being yellow soup it's blows.

>>155812099
More like turning people into white zetsu. But Madara wanted to save world from wars.

>>155807135
By that logic, there is nothing wrong with forcing somebody to eat a pill that makes them want to die, then killing them, because the end result is them getting the thing they want most and it doesn't matter that you forcibly changed what they want.

>>155810551
Infinite Tsukuyomi = Heaven on Earth.

>>155810292
But it doesnt have to be 0 efforts. It'd provide enough challenges for you to be fulfilled. It'd be the most fulfilling experience for everyone.

>>155817382
But people don't want fulfillment, they want results, which the IT prevents them from ever achieving.

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>Tsukuyomi

>>155807160
Exactly this. Tsukuyomi is escaping to a comfy lie, Instrumentality is the world coming face to face with itself. Obito was still a good boy though.

>>155806975
Narutards are so desperate to spam threads that they have to lump EVA with their cancerous spam

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>>155817804
LITERALLY (literally) DINDU NUFFIN

>>155817836
>>155813477

>>155817836

Shame Naruto has to lumped with EVA cancer.

The only reason anyone gives a shit about EVA here is waifu autism.

Tsukiyomi is a better plan overall.

Since we can't actually prove we aren't living in someone's else little Matrix experiment.

We may as well be trapped in a twisted Tsukiyomi already and we don't know it.

>>155820526
>We may as well be trapped in a twisted Tsukiyomi already and we don't know it.

In Tsukuyomi everyone's a winner.

>>155820600
>We may as well be trapped in a twisted Tsukiyomi already and we don't know it.
>twisted Tsukiyomi

KEYWORD.

What show is tsukuyomi from?

>>155807034
This, tsukuyomi is nothing compared to the instrumentality project.

>>155820708
that plant in its battle form (ten tails) can beat all the EVA angels

>>155820643
Bleach

>>155806975
Tsukuyomi seems like the smart choice here, but I've always wanted to know how would humans reproduce?

>>155821170
They wouldn't

>>155821170
Well, Madara didn't know the true purpose of Infinite Tsukuyomi. He was feeding off the white zetsu energy keeping himself alive for centuries so he figured the tree would keep everyone immortal instead of reproducing (I guess). Instead the tree is slowly turning everyone into brainless white zetsus and humanity would go extinct.

>>155806975
Fuck off Narutards

>>155806975
I can only be happy in my dreams, but rarely am I with other people so probably the Tsukuyomi

>>155810490
Personal agency allows people to compete to get what they want because not everyone wants the same thing or because they want the same thing but due to scarcity cannot acquire it and thus must kill/fight for it.

I miss the days of when Naruto discussion wasn't allowed

>>155821534
cry more

>>155821565
Ruin /a/ more

>>155821519
So you agree with me, that agency is a tool to get what you want. That's like saying the problem with teleportation is cars will no longer exist. Yes in the reality we live in scarcity exists, therefore intelligence and agency evolved, but if the resources weren't scarce we wouldn't need agency.

>>155821565
Fuck off Narutard

>>155821534

Waifu cancer, moeshit, KyoAni, etc. Should be banned first.

/v/ rightfully autosages threads with the term "waifu". Meanwhile, 95% of /a/ is waifushit. You know you suck when /v/ is less cancerous than you.

>>155821891
You already have a containment board >>>/vg/, Narutard

>>155821670

> If we can get the consequences without agency it's irrelevant.

Is what I disagree with.
Basically I think we, behaviorally, evolved (like you said) in such a way that I don't think living in a skinner box type society would make us satisfied even in a post scarcity society. People don't actively seek out things that make us stimulated like suffering, fear and so forth but they do activate the almonds so to speak. So we challenge ourselves, overcome things and so forth. Infinite Tsukuyomi is ignoring that big part of the human condition.

I guess I'm looking at the problem differently because I'm factoring in this.

>>155821670
There is a reason we are not beings who can harvest energy like plants through photosynthesis or regenerate tissue like starfish. Even the matrix wasn't a perfect simulation, that is why they had agents to catch those who could not assimilate 100% to the system.

This is my opinion but as long as we are flesh we will never be eternally fulfilled. Our minds need constant stimulation. eternal hell or blissful heaven either way our minds will reject it with enough passage of time.

>>155821891
You do realize when people say "fuck off narutards" they not only bump the thread, but they bait people to keep the thread active. They are memeing

>>155822234
Lurk more newfag. Sage isn't visible anymore but saged posts still don't bump the thread.

And nobody is keeping the thread active besides you pathetic Narutards.

>>155822322
nice dupe commando

>>155822322

The posts that reply to you bump the thread, dumbass.

Thanks again.

>>155806975
>Instrumentality vs Tsukuyomi
It's actually good issue, OP. If only /a/ doesn't hate Naruto.

For me Tsukuyomi is waaay better than Instrumentally.

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>>155821891
>autosage

>>155822741
It's a term used at krautchan you newfag

>>155822680
Not when you Narutards samefag.

And I don't know why you can be so proud about your pathetic fanfiction thread being bumped when pretty much only you Narutards are replying to it since any EVAfag would stay away from a thread made by underaged Narutards

>>155822724
You can stop replying to yourself, Narutard OP.

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>>155822837
Wot?
In the name of your whore mother, I'm not OP.

>>155823002
You need to die. Naruto is NOT real anime. That is for babies, cartoons for pre-pubescent children.

>>155823092
SO? That's just like when I watched it in the first time.
Don't tell me you only know about it recently. If so, you're a newfag then.

>>155806975
>TFW mods won't nuke on site the gateway anime of the worst kind anymore

Kagerou Daze already demonstrated why it's fallacious to view the world as being flawed.

>>155822217
>>155822234
There's really 3 subjects we're talking about: the real world, the narutoverse and pure theory. I was mainly describing agency in pure theory, though of course the only way I've ever seen it come into existence is through evolution. Yes in reality we need a "hedonic treadmill" of increasing highs to sustain satisfaction and negative emotions and events aren't always only negative. So yeah, I was talking about the pure theory of what is the purpose of agency and that it is instrumental (LOL) to achieving desires. Desires are the real meaning-creators, as I assume we all agree there is no objective purpose in life inscribed in the universe and existence itself, but merely the desires of sentient creatures. If we remove desires agency becomes irrelevant because we wouldn't want to do anything, but if we remove agency we just MIGHT not be able to get what we desire. Okay I changed my mind, likewise how we can have something external provide our wants for us like Tsukuyomi we can also use our agency to provide for others' wants like robots or mindless slaves. The agency of a slave does have purpose, just not for the slave itself.

As for the narutoverse, what you're both talking about is actually compatible with the infinite tsukuyomi. Madara wanted to eliminate "losing" from the world but he wanted to keep "winning". Remember 10/10's dream? She imagined she beat some tough guy and saved the village or some shit, and basically all the tsukuyomi dreams are wish fulfillment power fantasies.
TL;DR is the tsukuyomi doesn't remove agency, it gives perfect agency (guaranteed success) to the sentient dreamer and only the figments of their imaginations are losers.

>>155823642
Well, obviously, the illusion of perfect agency.

>>155823642
But if people only want the feeling of achievement instead of the achievement itself, then why does anybody in the world do anything besides shitpost on 4chan all day?

>>155823786
Because the achievement itself provides the feeling of achievement, duuuuh. I mean there is the proximal and distal cause (concious and evolved), the proximal reason for having sex is it feels good and distal is because it makes babies. Basically most people in the world are high on dopamine of achievements and the reason dopamine is released is because achievements will lead to us passing on our genes. Now you need to decide for yourself, because there isn't an objective purpose, whether you want to please your genes or your consciousness (I mean you don't have to choose, the normie life satisfies both but it's harder and suboptimal if you decide to just be a hedonist).

>>155823901
>Because the achievement itself provides the feeling of achievement
But there are much more efficient ways, like doing heroin.

>>155823975
Exactly. That's what I meant by living a normie life is suboptimal for hedonism, yet most normies are themselves hedonists.

>>155823975
Well the same dose has diminishing effects over the years. Sure it is quick and dirty but the effects on the mind make it impractical for sustaining a society (withdrawals create mind slaves of drugs but they are not loyal nor self-sustaining). Which let us be clear, no matter our goals or aspirations we are ultimately at whims to those who actually hold the fabric of society together. We have the mere illusion of agency in that regard. Thus even if I want to get high on crack all day, it is illegal and a crime no matter the agency I hold over my consequences of deteriorating health.

>>155823642
I wonder if any of them have withdrawals from Tsukuyomi world? My understanding is none of the characters could remember what happened, so it neatly and conveniently can just be forgotten.

Bit off topic but I always wondered who cared for the babies in order to mature in our hostile world in the first place? No matter our desires we did not have the power nor intelligence to survive against most threats. Chicken vs egg paradox I suppose.

>>155807075
They actually die. And in the afterlife in Naruto, no one remembers shit unless they're a ghost haunting someone like Kakashi's dad.

At least in the soup, your mind is still intact and are still technically alive.

>>155813477
Best Post.

>>155806975
What's instrumentality?

>>155806975
Naruto is better than Evangelion, don't even compare the two.

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>>155806975
One turns you into orange juice and fuses with other filthy humans.
The other one lets you dream about catgirl maids.

I think the winner is obvious.

>>155824721
>>155824890
>>155825144
narutards neck yourself filthy stink

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>>155825267
>he took the bait

>>155825144
why are there poop spots on her leg?

Naruto is better than Eva
Asuka is like a reject Naruto character with her edgy backstory

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>>155807656

maybe

>>155820626
>>twisted Tsukiyomi
Is no different than real life. Wars with suffering will be continued.

>>155826055
Dumbass.
That's the whole point.

I fucking hate these faggots who comes to these threads and go
>hahaha fuck off narutards! look at me i'm so funny!!!
This thread isn't even about Naruto vs Eva, it's just discussing which one is a better plan and you spergs just come to this thread to derail the discussion so you can just spout your shitty memes.