DBZ should have ended after this fight. The later chapters just

>>153616572
Way to devalue Cell like that.
Cell is interesting because of his knowledge of the fighters. He knew how to get Vegeta to give into his demands, he knew how Trunks' inexperiance was the reason he lost and he knew Goku would be the best fight he could get.
The Cell Games was the Sayain Pride genetically implanted into him wanting him to see who the strongest on Earth was before destroying it and then more than likely doing it again on other Worlds.
Not to mention it was a good passing of the torch. Everything had been wrapped up from past to present and future. Gohan would protect Earth in Goku's stead and Goku could go off into the sunset.
...Then Jump's Editor's said 'NO! MORE MONEY!' then the Jump fans said 'Give me back Goku or I'll kill you' and we got Buu.

DBZ was never good

>>153616572
wasn't this how it was actually gonna end?

>>153617928
This

If you gave a single shit about the writing as a whole instead of little moments, you wouldn't tolerate anything after Raditz, and that's being extremely lenient. The entire saga leading up to Frieza is mostly padding and fight scenes, and Frieza's just as shallow as the rest of the villains.

If you could tolerate the entirety of Namek for a few strong points, writing off Cell and especially Buu is just silly.

That said, Cell Saga's definitely the low point. His art got sloppy as fuck and almost everything good about it is a character moment divorced from the story at hand.

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>>153616572
Buu wasn't insane, he was just a force of nature of sorts.

And as silly as the general plot of the arc is, Buu's infinite regeneration, his attitude and his stretchiness made for some incredibly entertaining fights. The series would probably have been better if it had ended with Frieza, but I'm glad it didn't.

>>153616704
>...Then Jump's Editor's said 'NO! MORE MONEY!' then the Jump fans said 'Give me back Goku or I'll kill you' and we got Buu.
People keep repeating this like it's true, but no, it isn't. Toriyama just likes Goku more.

Also, the SoL at the start of the Buu saga was so good. Super wishes it could do SoL that good.

>>153621807
>Toriyama just likes Goku more.
If it was just that, Goku wouldn't have developed as much as he did in Buu.

Toriyama's ALWAYS been the kinda guy who bends to what kids want, and kids wanted more Goku. The sudden SURGE in edge at the same time really feels like outside influence, especially since the arc gets silly and the art gets loose exactly when it was decided that the series was ending.

Stuff like "editors forced X arc" is bullshit, but Dragon Ball as a whole has several points where outside opinion changed how things were presented.

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>>153621926
>If Toriyama liked goku he wouldn't give him character development

???

>surge in edge?
When?
Either way, Toriyama pretty much already said in no uncertain terms in some interview that the whole editor meddling thing after frieza and after cell was bullshit.

>>153622068
Goku changed quite a bit after he died and, even when he became acting protagonist in Buu, acted more like how Toriyama writes supporting characters. His character flaws became more prominent, he was quite snide compared to before, he showed a better understanding of social norms, he was in full dad mode. He changed quite a bit and reached a new level of maturity without losing his childishness and quintessential qualities.

And yeah, nobody FORCES Toriyama to do anything. He makes these decisions on his own based on feedback. He was never forced to make Cell or abandon the original androids, and he was never forced to put Goku back in the spotlight towards the end of Buu. He's just prone to catering to fans, and the fans LOVED Goku coming back.

It's not like he HATED doing it, but the shift is so abrupt that it's hard to imagine he planned on it. It's just Toriyama being Toriyama. "Oh, people like this/don't like this, guess I'll do this."

>what edge
The end of Spopovich to...a bit into Fat Buu? He started drawing way more viscerally than normal, like how Piccolo slashing Babidi in half was gorey for some reason. Seemed like he caved into the 90's "grim" craze slightly but quickly thought better of it. It was very unlike his work.

>>153622589
>Goku changed quite a bit after he died
Odd, character development is considered a GOOD thing, especially after being dead for 7 years. It's almost like childlike naivete and stupiditiy isn't endearing when you're 40, something that the writers of Super seem to have forgotten.

>The end of Spopovich to...a bit into Fat Buu?
Gore was not new to dragon ball at the buu saga. Did you forget how Nappa tore Tien's arm off, how vegeta broke BUrter's neck and decapitated Guldo, how frieza was cut into pieces twice, how Android 20 stuck his arm through yamcha and literally strangled some passerby's head off? How Gohan obliterated the cell juniors in highly graphic fashion?

>>153622887
No, I LIKE what he did with Goku in Buu, my point is that someone yearning to put their protagonist back in the spotlight doesn't bring them in as someone at the end of their arc, developed and static and quite unlike how he was when he was the star. Vegeta and Gohan acted more like protagonists (as little as Vegeta did) while Goku was more their foil for growth.

And you don't have to tell me plenty of violent stuff happens in Dragon Ball, I'm talking about how it was rendered. I'll give you that it was more of a return to late Cell than a completely new thing, but the panel of Videl crying with her teeth knocked out for example seemed pretty out of tone.

>>153623703
>No, I LIKE what he did with Goku in Buu, my point is that someone yearning to put their protagonist back in the spotlight doesn't bring them in as someone at the end of their arc
I disagree, I feel bringing back goku as a developed character in the final arc of the manga is only logical.

>while Goku was more their foil for growth.
Ah, I think I see what you're getting at. Still, I don't think this means what you feel it means, if anything it means Toriyama prioritized Goku over them, as he intended.

>>153623703
>And you don't have to tell me plenty of violent stuff happens in Dragon Ball, I'm talking about how it was rendered.
Videl vs Spopovitch was brutal, but not moreso than stuff from the frieza saga onwards. It's just how dragon ball gradually became. Plus the Buu saga had nothing else as brutal as videl getting beaten up, anyway, so I'd certainly not call it a tonal shift.

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>>153622589
>He started drawing way more viscerally than normal, like how Piccolo slashing Babidi in half was gorey for some reason.
So was this

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>>153624473
hq DB manga where?

Also this.

>>153624473
Not really.
My entire point was that it was rendered in a more violent way than normal. It wasn't as clean as Toriyama's bisections tend to be.

It's about how it's drawn, not what's drawn.

>>153624589
Yeah, more in this vein
>>153624553

Not the best example, but late Cell and some of Buu had some uncharacteristic renderings of violence.

>>153624553
kissmanga

>>153624677
Buu didn't have any gross renderings of violence like gohan vs the cell juniors. Videl was shocking because she was a girl and lost a few teeth, babidi himself got cut in two but nothing gory was shown like with the cell juniors.

I don't think the buu saga was more brutal than anything past radditz really.

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>>153624704
I don't think you were serious.

>>153616572
It should have ended with Piccolo Jr. instead of turning Dragon Ball into a Kinnikuman rip-off.

>>153620314
>That said, Cell Saga's definitely the low point. His art got sloppy as fuck and almost everything good about it is a character moment divorced from the story at hand.
The art for the Boo Saga was way worse and what "divorced" character moment?

>>153616572
Disagree completely. At that point, too many plotpoints hadn't reached their conclusion... Gohan's vast hidden reserves of strength and wether Vegeta had truly become on of the good guys. Not to mention Z would have been only about Goku. The androids and the Cell games were all about other characters stepping up to the plate while Goku was down and out, ending with Gohan surpassing his father. And the Buu saga saw the end of Vegeta's transformation into a good man. Cell would have made a better ending point themeatically but then we'd lose Vegeta's character development

>>153620314
Anyone who could tolerate DragonBall would also find the shift incredibly off-putting.

I mean DB was just happy, light hearted fantasy adventure loosely referencing Journey to the West.

>>153624978
Earlier chapters are HQ, don't shoot the messenger. I bet you can get them from torrents or whatever.

>>153625737
Those references ended by the end of the first arc, or before the second budokai if we're being really generous.