There are way too fucking many MaiDragon threads. How about a Flip Flappers thread instead?
Wake me when Cocopapi get this lewd with each other, anon.
Disgusting. Cocona and Papika have a pure relationship not any of that degenerate crap.
Pure love is fine and all, but sooner or later those girls gotta get down and dirty. It just doesn't feel real if they act like nuns around each other. They're teenage girls in love, for fuck's sake; why waste time pussyfooting around?
You can't just blush while hold hands and stare deeply into each other's eyes forever. Something's gotta give
There was one but it died anon.
Maybe you didn't see it on the archive because it didn't have "flip flappers" on the OP.
And before there was >>153498476
Don't worry, every now and then we do get a thread that reaches the post limit all the way.
It happens like every 2-3 days.
>You can't just blush while hold hands and stare deeply into each other's eyes forever. Something's gotta give
They could have, if they had stayed in the timeloop PI.
But that was bland. Love needs to move forward.
Yuri dorks are dead, long live yuri monsters,
Thanks, I'll check those out.
I'll probably get attached to them, and then suffer when they lose. But maybe that tragedy is what I really crave.
Yeah, she sure feels more like a character out of a sports or maybe action series aimed at boys who somehow found herself in yuri. That's part of her charm.
What are the chances they redraw stuff for the last BD volume? So far all fixes have been very basic stuff like mouth flaps, layers and credits.
These guys are paid per drawing from what I've heard and I don't think they have any budged left to spend on a flop.
The first several episodes had very little need for changes, so there were very few changes.
Things didn't really start having noticeable issues until episode 11 so it will be a while before we get any real indication of how much they will be willing to fix when fixing is needed. I really hope 11, 12 and 13 get a healthy heaping of improvements, but considering the dismal BD sales so far, I can't imagine it being justifiable cost-wise. After all, fixing half of the issues in 12 alone will probably cost more than they'll make off the final BD volume's sales.
That is of course, unless Oshiyama, the absolute madman that he is, elects to just redo all the problem bits himself
>That is of course, unless Oshiyama, the absolute madman that he is, elects to just redo all the problem bits himself
Yeah, I thought about that and I'm sure he loves this show and all. But in the end he is just an animator and he has to earn money too. I really doubt he can afford working a even week for absolutely nothing.
Papika is underrated. A lot of people seem to think she's dumb or not deserving of Cocona even though it's the exact opposite.
I think they might be Yayakafags who got cucked irl.
>Papika is underrated
She's like the single most popular character, how is she underrated?
And she is dumb, but that's also part of her charm.
That said, I think Papika is a lot smarter than she lets on, and we only assume that she's so stupid and a cute puppy because we never see inside her head or hear her thoughts. A lot of her actions in the show appear to be done with conscious intent and deliberation. She behaves in a premeditated manner to further her relationship with Cocona while also concealing the fact that she's orchestrating the relationship from the position of someone who holds all the power and clearly has a larger wealth of worldly knowledge (which she once again is content to keep to herself and pretend she doesn't possess until it's beneficial).
I think people too easily forget that she kept her dream a secret from Cocona because it was clearly a dream that involved her. The puppydog act was just that, an act. She figured if she pushed hard enough, Cocona would eventually give in, and as long as she was persistent enough, Cocona would mistake proximity for genuine passion.
Papika is a lot less sincere than people assume.
We thought she learned Cocona's name by overhearing her classmates, but I think she actually remembered that time she got freed from the dick tree.
I also think Cocona remembered that time too, but for her the experience was more like a dream. And since she never learned Papika's name, she never connected her with that dream.
Papika's wish from episode 4 that she kept secret clearly was for her to be with Cocona and to go adventuring with her.
I wonder if Cocona figured all these things out eventually. I think she must have. The entire show was told from her perspective so she probably did by the end.
Nah. Cocona is the self insert character. The show is told in a way where she figures out exactly as much as each individual viewer does and exactly at that time when it was shown first.
I'm a yayakafag but I recognize that Papika was the perfect match for Cocona, she earned her cocobowl with hard work and dedication with every happy TANOMOOO and sweet warm smile she cracked that coco's hard shell bit by bit until she got to that sweet juice inside.
Though I think Yayaka had a better story along with better scenes and achievements but that's another matter.
I can't stop listening to the full OP.
>Cocona is the self insert character.
> The show is told in a way where she figures out exactly as much as each individual viewer does and exactly at that time when it was shown first.
We learn that Mimi flavoured her eggs with a sprinkle of Salt in a flashback that happens while Cocona's mind is catatonic and trapped in Pure Illusion while her body and senses are controlled by Mimi. The flashback isn't even given by anyone. No character narrates it, it doesn't juxtapose in-universe exposition. There's just an awkward cutaway from a critical scene for the flashback to provide direct context for the events of the unfolding drama, which were hitherto unknown to the viewer.
There's know way for Cocona to know the story of her conception and her mother's tragic breakdown because none of this is told in-universe, and she's not even present in the framing scene containing the flashback for there to be any kind of "this flashback was actually just an abstraction of in-universe exposition that was provided in a manner less viewer-friendly than a flashback would have been"
The only way for her to have figured out who her dad is would have been to presume from his appearance and interaction with Mimi in episode 13 that he had some kind of important relationship with her. Even that is a little shaky, both because Cocona was pretty focused squarely on Papika through that whole ordeal, and because she didn't at the time know enough about Mimi, Salt or their history together to assume that knowing each other = RAW DICK SEX CUM INSIDE MY WOMB DOUSE IT WITH YOUR SEED I'M OVULATING OH BABY
It's very silly to assume that Cocona knows everything the viewer does. It's even sillier to assume that on the basis that she's a self insert character. Like, what?
If ep8's original concept was seriously scrapped because it was too similar to kabenari, that means it was scrapped almost a year before the show actually started airing. There's no way that would have seriously impacted the production schedule when you have shit like Oshiyama animating half of an episode solo in the span of 36 sleepless hours.
The production schedule collapsed because it was a big, ambitious anime project with an inexperienced director and extremely high standards for production. Apparently, Oshiyama also had a thing against bringing on new staff members when they were already knee deep in production because he felt it would take too long to get them up to speed on what the show was all about, which I'm sure contributed to the late-stage schedule collapse. Episode 12 was probably an eye-opener for him and the point where he realized he would have to take responsibility for that decision and shoulder some of the animation workload himself if he wasn't willing to get more people on payroll to do it.
Schedule issues like that are hardly uncommon, anyways. They don't need to be precipitated by some on-high production sabotage like Symphogear's disastrous 3rd season. Sometimes it just happens. That's the reality of the industry.
Going deep into Papika is one of the more interesting things still left to explore with the show.
Like you say, there are many things that could be interpreted as hints of that side of Papika. One that had more awareness of things than she seemed to show along with certain level of thinking that isn't obvious at first glance.
But it's hard to pin point the nature of that aspect of her. At best we can reach many conjectures.
But she's definitely smart on some level, she's not dumb, she might have seemed odd due to her uncivilized nature but she constantly showed a good deal of creativity and quick thinking.
She was suspicious at times, like when she shows up to Cocona on the last episode and her excuse was having sweets with Mimi.
But her feelings are genuine, I wouldn't question them.
Maybe she did act cuter on purpose though, and often would take advantage of the naive perception others had of her to get away with shit without having to be fully cynical about it.
She did show a good level of emotional capacity when it comes to how well she dealt with Cocona, she managed to push hard enough to get close to her without coming off as too strong on her and scaring her.
Perhaps the answer lies in this episode, with the many different sides of Papika, were those just interpretations of her from Cocona's point of view, or were they meant to be taken as the actual different sides that make Papika as a whole? I think it's the later though.
In that case there's a side of Papika that always wanted Cocona (succubus) but also a side of her that enjoyed teasing her a little and wasn't always straight forward to her (the bishie side) while a part of her is also immature and cute and like a little sister to her. That mix of her different sides would make sense of her actions by giving us a hint of her internal thought process.
At least for the earlier parts they did manage a good job of giving the audience as little information as Cocona had with everything being about as vague and confusing as it should be to her.
But that doesn't make her a self insert character or anything silly like that.
It was just interesting storytelling.
They even manage to make it a plot point with the subject of Iro, due to the focus on Cocona's point of view making her experience seem negative because that's how Cocona herself was interpreting it.
Pretty neat stuff.
Trading Places is my drug.
Also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8pjExFdu7g
>without coming off as too strong on her and scaring her.
She actually did this for like the first 3 episodes.
In fact, half of the point behind episode 3 was that Cocona genuinely wanted to beat Papika up, and did so. Papika handled this by just taking the beating, because at the end of the day Cocona just doesn't have it in her to be the kind of person that can push someone out of her life by force.
They didn't actually start becoming friends until episode 4, and you really only start getting hints that Cocona's feelings extend beyond her puffy wet flaps around episode 6, when she does things like put herself in harm's way specifically to protect Papika.
Where was the outrage for episode 3 or 4?
Oh right, no one was watching the show at that point.
No, ep 8 was scrapped at last minute. They had emergency meetings. The scrapped concept art was shown to audiences at the talk show. Considering the timing of when the storyboards and scripts were finished it's safe to assume storyboards and script was also scrapped. That also explains why the background art of ep8 is pure polygon CG.
>That also explains why the background art of ep8 is pure polygon CG.
A. it isn't actually CGI
B. Studio Pablo left the project at that point, so the backgrounds being different from what came before was something that had been planned well in advance and not the consequence of some kind of scheduling disaster.
Whoever was making the background art of fight zombies in space trains would have it scrapped anyway and that has nothing to do with Studio Pablo or anyone specifically.
That's a good point. I need to pay attention to that part of the show next time I rewatch it, to notice how the subtle changes in their interactions show their relationship deepening.
It's true that by ep 4 it is that Cocona opened up more to Papika and until then they had been struggling with some differences.
But even before that point of their relationship Papika still managed to keep Cocona at least within her grasp, despite bothering her and making her want to beat her up. She might have been pushy enough to get that reaction from Cocona, but she still managed to keep it within the sort of range that got Cocona to still enjoy her adventures with her and open up to it and piqued her interest in her despite being bothered by her.
Like teasing done right, she hated it, but she liked it, and she hated that she liked it. So even if part of her wanted to beat Papika up, another part of her was being fascinated by her, overall she wasn't entirely put off by her.
Without being that pushy in the beginning they might not have been able to get so close that fast, so a little bit of early friction could come off as positive in the long run as long as it's the right kind that manages to bring people together and not the kind that puts a complete stop to a relationship.
>chinese cartoon fans complaining over fanservice
What went wrong?
Yes, she does.
Episode 8 was a digital high-tech world, so Pablo didn't fit the aesthetic.
Episode 9 was the batcave, so there's hardly anything to make backgrounds for
10 and 11 and 12 take place entirely in familiar settings, so backgrounds can be recycled wholesale
Episode 13 was the exception here, but its environment was simple enough and so action-focused that it hardly mattered
Pablo was contracted up to that point and no further because there was clearly nothing left for them to do after that.
Weren't at least some backgrounds in 9 from them too? I swear they were in the credits. This one maybe?
And yeah, 11, 12 and 13 recycled a lot of previously shown ones from them as well.
9 was their last one, they also had stuff in the flashback scenes
It was kind of fun and sad how yayaka was spammed by begonias and tomodachis after that scene. Like the staff had to remember the audience it was one sided every single episode.
She's still dumb and breaks the school dressing code. Not to mention no normal human bean could stand Mei. She must be some sort of alien.
Was it a ruse? A warning?
How one sided was it truly in the end?
It didn't seem that one sided, they are still friends and all.
Although obviously the degree of their friendship is not balanced.
Cocona is Yayaka's treasure, she's willing to fight to death, and sacrifice herself for her. She loves her the most in the world.
Meanwhile Yayaka is just Cocona's dear childhood friend and she probably cares a lot about her, it's not like she has that many friends and she's a sweet girl who cares a lot about those close to her. But she's not her most important person or even that high on her priority list.
What in the show really proves that Cocona cares about Yayaka? She's known her for years but doesn't know anything about her, they don't show any sort of closeness, she fights Yayaka the first chance she gets while siding with someone she doesn't know, and she doesn't show any real concern when Yayaka doesn't show up. Cocona likes having someone around to support her but doesn't actually care about Yayaka.
To be honest, Yayaka's feelings for Cocona seem to come from more of a place of "you are literally the only meaningful human relationship in my life as well as the only connection I have to the real, sane world outside of mad science cults and child labour in lala land."
Cocona was her bridge to a normal life, and a place where her belonging wasn't tentative to the results she could produce for a half-crazy grandpa with a lust for leprechaun cum. What she really wants/ needs is belonging and just something that's real. That doesn't have to be a romantic relationship, though her competitive spirit certainly did seem to want to monopolize her friend (or at least be her #1) pretty much right to the end. Yayaka will be perfectly fine staying Cocona's friend and eventually growing out of her ambiguously gay teen phase to pursue a real life with healthy relationships in a place she can call her own.
>Papika is a lot less sincere than people assume.
I agree that she's deeper than what she may come off as at first, but in no way is she anything less than 100% genuine in her emotions. Even Oshiyama said so. But even without Oshiyama you can just tell from the show too.
I inherently distrust any dogged gay girl that can go from "I daidaidaisuki you" to "my dreams and aspirations are a naisho from the person I daidaidaisuki [because they possibly pertain to that person, maybe]" in the span of 24 minutes.
The amount of stuff she knows vs what she chooses to reveal make her a suspicious character and her motives (which I shall point out are concealed entirely from us and never revealed except through the fact that her intentions apparently come to fruition in some manner or another when she "gets the girl" that she's been shamelessly chasing since episode 1) equally suspicious. She reveals a lot about her character when she gives the stock answer for not immediately divulging the truth about Mimi upon her recollection by saying something to the effect of "I didn't want to hurt Cocona's feelings," which is right up there with "I had a headache" for sincere excuses to avoid being attentive to the needs of those dear to you when you think honestly will serve your self-interest less than dishonesty.
>she fights Yayaka the first chance she gets
Not really. The only time they actually fight is in the memory dome.
Cocona was worried about Yayaka in several instances, but she gets told that she's being amai na every time. Yayaka is definitely at least pretending to be in control all the time. And she in turn holds back the twins from attacking Cocona and Papika, which in the end leads them to report that to the KKK.
I wouldn't side with someone whos goal was "world conquest" either. That kinda makes you one of the bad guys.
Your address or coordinates then?
That's cold anon. You even make a good point, hard to refute.
You almost got me there.
But you made it sound different than how it really was.
In reality Cocona didn't want to fight Yayaka, it's not like it was easy for her. She seriously didn't want to.
Anytime things got ugly between them Cocona looked very sad about it, there was a thick tension in the air between them when the conflict got bad, that shows how much that weighted on Cocona, which shows that Yayaka meant something to her.
Cocona was never really shown with any other friends, Yayaka was special for her.
Want hints they were friends? Just look at their interactions at least before things got ugly, they were able to get along the way friends do. And for someone as introverted and withdrawn like Cocona that's specially meaningful.
Or look back at how Cocona reacted when Yayaka got hurt. She cared about her. Her emotional response to it was not the one she'd have for a random girl who happens to be around for her when she needs some support. It was passionate and genuine.
Just think about it, there's simply no way someone like as sweet as Cocona would grow up with a close childhood friend, share plenty of experiences together, get along and all of that and not care about them.
She's not that sort of girl.
Perhaps their relationship might seem lacking but that can be due to the pacing of the show, not giving us many chances to see Cocona and Yayaka as friends, or due to Cocona's initial shy and introverted nature, just because she doesn't show a ton of outward affection it doesn't mean she doesn't care about someone or consider them important.
Remember her PI, she's cold, but sweet.
Yayaka just sucked at getting close and comfortable enough with her to get Cocona out of her cold shell, the way Papika managed to do.
>What she really wants/ needs is belonging and just something that's real. That doesn't have to be a romantic relationship, though her competitive spirit certainly did seem to want to monopolize her friend (or at least be her #1) pretty much right to the end
That's a good way to interpret and sum it up.
Papika withholds information.
But she does not lie.
She is genuine and honest, but perhaps she's aware that some things are better not said, or maybe she's just not the sort of person that says everything in their head.
That doesn't make her dishonest or suspicious.
You are interpreting her that way because it's hard to accept a character that seems that genuine and that honest to actually be that genuine and honest. So the little bits that she keeps to herself seem like big hints of a greater mastermind at work.
But is that really the case?
I don't see it at all.
Acting in her self interests isn't really a dishonest thing when she has made those interests clear since the start, and keeping some information to herself isn't necessarily a bad thing either.
The sort of things she kept a secret were things that actually warranted being kept secrets at the time, or were very hard to come out with.
She's not a compulsive liar or a sneaky sort of person. Just a very genuine girl with very complicated circumstances who had to keep some details shut.
>Papika withholds information.
>But she does not lie.
These are effectively the same thing, you realize?
The point is that she had a goal in mind, a self-interested goal mind you, and was perfectly okay with manipulating Cocona (the person she presumably daisuki'd) both physically and emotionally by carefully manicuring the information that she put out until the only thing her partner was receiving from her was exactly what she wanted her partner to receive, eg. only things which cast her in a positive light and furthered her own interests.
She never genuinely exposes herself to be emotionally harmed by Cocona, which is why "Daikirai" was such a powerful moment. It wasn't just Papika's best-laid plans blowing up in her face, it was her realizing for the first time that despite all of her careful control over Cocona, that scared little girl still had the power to hurt her emotionally. That in its own way shows a degree of development in their relationship, but Papika herself never makes up for or redeems her dubiously secretive and deceitful nature and we never learn exactly why she was controlling Cocona that way or to what end. It just seemed to be her nature.
For me to have an issue with her being genuine, I think I would have had to actually see her being genuine when it mattered. You'll notice that she's only spouting cheesy lines about love at convenient moments, and every fraught or emotionally difficult situation has her verbally retract inward and dive into wordless action instead, running from a moment where she might have to bear more of herself than she intends.
1:Pure Input 2:Pure Converter
3:Pure XLR 4:Pure Equalization
5:Pure Echo 6:Pure Play
7: Pure Component 8:Pure Breaker
9:Pure Mute 10:Pure Jitter
11:Pure Storage 12:Pure Howling
Why are the episode titles named after the process of sampling and creating a audio file?
I found episodes 12 and 13's fights against Mimi to have a lot of problems, I really really hope they fix that up a lot. When Yayaka first transforms and beats the shit out of the Mad Max-themed PI villainess it feels like the sfx and animation are desynched, making it really awkward to watch. Papika and Cocona punching away the cyborg monster after donning their wedding dresses also lacked any feeling of impact. And there were a bunch of smaller problems with the snake!Mimi fight.
the director is personally an audiophile and pure audio refers to the metaphysical and religious pursuit of the ultimate audio quality
They called her dumb, but in the end the puppy outwitted the cat.
I think the audio quirk in Yayaka's henshin scene was intentional. When something break's the sound barrier, there's an odd interval between seeing and hearing because the object is moving so fast it could technically reach you before the sound of it reaching you reached you. I think that's what they were going for.
I see your point, and all of that makes a lot of sense, it's good stuff. You do seem to understand Papika well.
But I guess we see some things in different tones.
I don't think omitting a few details at the time is that bad, I wouldn't call all that manipulation either.
She just doesn't seem that machiavellian to me.
Like her way of spouting cheesy lines, it didn't seem like a deliberate move with ulterior motives. Just like the silly things a naive girl like her would feel like saying, thus the natural thing that comes out of her mouth is that.
It's not like Papika was in control or anything, I don't think she "presumably" loved Cocona. She loved her. Almost like she worshiped and needed her. Those were strong feelings and there's no reason to doubt their authenticity. If anything she was just trying to do her best to please Cocona and to make sure they had a chance to get closer to each other because of that love. She got hurt so badly when Cocona didn't want to love her anymore precisely because she loves her so much.
I see her actions not as manipulative, but naive, she underestimated the importance of honesty in a relationship, brushed aside some important factors, how the other person could react to it, and what that could lead to.
Lies by omission are a sort of dishonesty, yes, but my point before was that they're not really big enough a deal to become so suspicious and cynical about every aspect of the character when there are other explanations that make sense of those things while still being consistent with every other part of the character.
But kudos to the flip flappers staff, they sure managed to come up with a character interesting enough that we're able to have this sort of discussion about them. All 3 main characters, even the side characters in fact all have gotten a fair share of valid different interpretations.
I'd say that's much more interesting than a character so straight forward there's not much to disagree about.
>Papika and Cocona punching away the cyborg monster after donning their wedding dresses also lacked any feeling of impact
Yeah, overall plenty of the "action" scenes with the white henshins would have been way cooler and more amazing and enjoyable if the animation had been on par with the rest of the show.
It's a shame.
If they managed to fix that I think it would improve the overall experience of the last episode by a lot, which would also improve the way the whole show ends feeling.
>The story follows girls in a manga club—Ai, Mai, Mii, and Ponoka-senpai—who might be fighting evil invaders threatening Earth, facing off against rivals in tournaments, and dealing with other absurd situations when they are not drawing manga.
This sounds interesting.
Tell us more anon.
A lot of people get hung up on Papika's lack of conventional intelligence, and miss the dichotomy of Papika's emotional intelligence vs Cocona's academic intelligence. Papika is extremely mature in the sense that she knows what she wants and takes a straight path toward achieving her desires on a moment-to-moment basis. Whereas Cocona struggles with worrying about what is the "right thing to do" according to other people, Papika is never concerned with what other people think, she is only concerned with her own goals. She takes adversity head-on and isn't afraid of failure, a contrast to Cocona who is unable to advance in life strictly because she is so afraid of failure.
In all ways that Cocona is an idiot and undermatured, Papika is a genius, and vice-versa. They perfectly make up for each other's weaknesses, which is reflected in the designs of their magical girl designs, and later, the evolution into their wedding dress-like forms. At first they are trying to emulate the other one's strengths; they switch hair colours, Papika gets a shield despite Cocona being the cautious thoughtful one, and Cocona gets a blade despite Papika being the aggressive, initiative-filled one.
>Mi and Nana-san find themselves in serious danger
>Obvious Yuri relationship from the start
>Nana-san opensa portal that looks suspiciously like PI, and sends Mi to a universe that she can be free of assassin school and safe
>Nana-san isn't alive, but can still see Mi through Ponoka's jar (already known to be a portal to other dimensions).
hmm sounds an awful lot like the last few episodes of Flip Flappers, and all condensed into three minutes!
Why don't you watch and see? Nana-san is clearly Yayaka, Mimi, and Papika all in one, while Mi is clearly Papika and Cocona.
Damn, Why are lesbian relationships so complicated?
So I just finished this a couple days ago. Man. This show is good, don't get me wrong. Had a lot of fun watching it, and some of those sequences were awesome. But I think this wrote a check it couldn't quite cash.
I mean those first few episodes were so damn good. That Mad Max episode is just awesome. But after the giant mech episode, the series just kinda seems to slow down and get boring. I understood the ending and all, but the show just seemed to get less bombastic and creative and more serious. It just left me feeling unsatisfied.
I'd still give it an 8/10 despite my complaints, it was still awesome. But had those last episodes been better I could see this series easily getting a 10/10
That's an interesting analysis of those two and some of their dynamics.
The contrast between their personalities or the outfits that compliment each other have been brought up since the start but I had not seen it also connected to the way they both dealt with what they wanted to do/achieve as well as the nature of their henshin powers.
They are a high grade OTP after all.
I tried to do that but many of them don't say "flip flappers" on the OP.
Does that mean I have to check every single thread on the archive from the date the show started airing until now?
It's funny that Cocona ends up blocking with her sword more times than actually cutting things, while Papika hurls shields as ballistic projectiles. I never really picked up on that dichotomy before.
My only issue with saying that their strengths and weaknesses are complimentary is the fact that Papika also has a lot of practical skills which are not inherently emotional or unacademic. She's a capable cook while Cocona is a hopeless one. She's an experienced outdoorsy survivalist in a manner that's totally at odds with her identity as an age-reversed amnesiac going through puberty for the second time for the first time.
In fact, the differences along those lines are so extreme you have to wonder how much of Cocona's skills are ACTUALLY areas that she excels over Papika vs just areas that Papika deliberately underperforms to give Cocona something to feel good about. I feel like the uniform thing, for example, is one of those. Even in episode 4, when it's actually happening and none of the Papikana and Mimi context is floating about, that scene comes across as constructed and phony as hell. I have a hard time swallowing the pill that this girl who is extremely dexterous and good with her hands, a remarkably quick and physical learner, perceptive of and attentive to small details, diligent and obedient to instruction, and excels at technical tasks like cooking or surviving in the wild would somehow have difficulty tying a fucking sash on her own.
Her vocabulary makes sense because she had amnesia. But, at the same time it also makes it a shaky difference since Papika will invariably "catch up" to Cocona's academic level over time due to her exceptional learning skills, or already surpassed her the moment she regained her Papikana memories. In that sense their eventual relationships has all the troubling power-imbalances and lacking in equal ground of age-gap despite their technical ages being about the same.
Ho damn, 2 whole points just because of the Mimi arc? I agree with you, it was definitely the show's weakest point which is especially a shame because ending off on a low note hurts way more than having that low note in, say, the middle of the show's runtime.The first 8 episodes are definitely 10/10 and I've been getting into really deeply analysing and picking the show apart recently, and even though there are some definite problems with the Mimi arc, I find myself regarding it as a 10/10 despite that. There's still some really strong stuff in the last few episodes, and I feel if (as discussed further up in the thread) the BD release fixes a lot of the animation issues for the action scenes, the whole final arc will feel A LOT better overall, because the action-filled padding that bridges the gap between the important scenes will be a smoother and more enjoyable viewing experience.
Unfortunately one of the bigger problems going on at the end is the abandonment of the show's formula of hopping into Pure Illusion and completely changing the approach each episode takes, which couldn't happen with the tighter, more closely linked narrative structure of those penultimate episodes. The biggest shame is that this can't exactly be fixed by the BDs.
The last episodes get better/more interesting/easier to appreciate with time because there's a lot of stuff happening in them and some of it only becomes as interesting or fascinating after it's connected to other things or fully interpreted.
But yeah, they didn't seem as amazing, and lacked a certain abstract "wow" factor the earlier episodes have.
If I had to blame something, I'd say it's the animation. It wasn't bad, but it was barely ok and when a show has raised expectations so high with amazing high quality scenes in the past then "ok" seems kind of shitty for an ending.
>Papika will invariably "catch up" to Cocona's academic level over time due to her exceptional learning skills, or already surpassed her the moment she regained her Papikana memories
Papika really was a genius after all!
Is that supposed to be an ironic dichotomy or an attempt to be overtly politic by someone so self-deluded they see the entire world in stark shades of progressive or problematic?
>saying "go read a book"
>It's funny that Cocona ends up blocking with her sword more times than actually cutting things, while Papika hurls shields as ballistic projectiles. I never really picked up on that dichotomy before.
That is indeed funny and interesting.
And regarding the many skills of Papika, is there any chance she picked them up between the time she got out of the dicktree prison in PI and the beginning of the show?
We have to assume she was living with Salt right? If he was preparing for all of the events from the show since then it would make some sense that he'd have her learn survival skills at least right?
>Hi. I'm Papika, PhD in 2nd wave feminist theory, and I'm here to tell you why glue-gushing gonorrhea geometry is not necessary for sexual satisfaction.
>First, observe the way my lovely assistant (that's you, Cocona) wraps her thighs around my head. Many skeptics on the Christian right have made dubious allegations about whether or not this is natural. I ask you, gentlemen, that if this is not natural, how can you explain the snug way in which these divine pillows hug my face like a pair of sapho-erotic earmuffs?...oh! Smells like lavender today....Cocona would like that part struck from the record.
>Secondly, we know from past, well documented experiments that Coconas and Cocona prototypes do not respond well to phallic contact. The Cocona Mk Mimi was so dissatisfied with Salt- I mean...the subject's inadequate penis, she almost blew up everything and tried to consume her daughter with the gaping, blood belching maw of eldritch horror that he had left behind.
>Now, I know what you are all thinking. "But we need warty hotdogs to manufacture more Coconas! How can you deprive the world of such majestic beauty?" While it may be true with our current technology, Cocona and I have been searching her fridge and dresser drawer extensively for a substitute. We expect to make a breakthrough some time in the next year, though further trial runs may be needed to confirm our findings.
>Finally, I feel the need to address the question that PR has received more than any other. "Alright, Papika, I get that Cocona has a life-threatening allergy to weenies, but surely that doesn't mean she needs 'your' lesbo-mutant ham wallet, right? Why can't she be with an ugly blonde slut with no curves?"
>We here at Papika industries take your concerns very seriously, and we appreciate your letters and the return addresses on them. Thank you and goodnight.
Yeah, that's the beauty of it, they're trying to emulate each other but are still fundamentally the same people they always are, change isn't that simple. Papika is also still the one rushing headlong into combat first despite her shields and bubbles being far better as a support role. My favourite example of their disconnect between personalities and magical girl roles is in episode 6 when fighting Yayaka and the twins. Papika recklessly tackles Yayaka, successfully snatching the amorphous from her, however this leaves them open to Yuyu's attack immediately after, which Cocona notices at the last moment but is powerless to stop. If they really fit into their roles properly, Cocona would have attacked Yayaka for the amorphous, and Papika would have been ready to react to Yuyu's punch, sparing them the issue of being launched through the floor and discovering the gate to Iro's memories.
The wedding-dress-like "transformation" of their outfits sees them return to their normal hair colours as they finally come to the end of both their individual developments as well as the development of their relationship reaching its peak. They are comfortable as who they are, and are confident in each other's ability to make up for each of their shortcomings. They each trust the other person to complete them, which is why the wedding theme, despite them obviously not being in a strict romantic relationship.
As for cooking, I would say Papika's cooking skills are a result of her unacadmeic intelligence. As we saw on the island, she learns everything through trial and error, even which plants are safe to eat and which aren't. It's very safe to assume that's how she learned how to cook, both by necessity of being a "feral child", and the childishly pure curiosity and instinct to experience the world around her with all of her senses. It's also probably why she was chasing Uexkull in episode 2 with a hungry look on her face, in the wild, a rabbit would be a delicious meal.
>between the time she got out of the dicktree prison in PI and the beginning of the show?
I really want to know how Papika and Cocona escaped that, obviously the sane one of Mimi's personalities de-aged Papika so she could be a "normal" friend for Cocona growing up, but how far does Mimi's influence go? How did they go back to the normal world, how did they get seperated, how did Cocona end up in the care of her ""grandma"" who's just an Ascelpius agent, etc?
I don't want to believe that there is no answer for this missing but crucial time period.
Oh interesting stuff.
What about Yayaka, have you thought about her?
Her henshin didn't change much about her, in fact it just improved what she already did.
And going from yellow to green. Well we know all of them were meant to represent the RGB, but if Cocona went from blue to red and Papika went from red to blue, isn't it interesting that Yayaka went from yellow to green, and green is the mix of yellow and blue.
Apparently Papika de-aged because time was unstable in the PI that she was in.
Cocona visits that PI in her dreams, but chose not to approach Papika until she looked about the same age because she was afraid of her.
When Mimi burst into shards, Papika was sucked into the dicktree PI and Cocona was just left behind with the ruins of the research lab and Salt's Dad. She was essentially raised by Asclepius, but for some reason given much more freedom than the other kids whose lives they controlled.
Papika found the exit and escaped that PI after Cocona helped her out of the dicktree, and that's where she ended up with Salt.
Important symbolism, I'm sure.
I believe Cocona went there in her dreams, her body wasn't physically there.
She did that a few times during the show, whenever she visited Mimi in the boat remember.
And interviews confirmed that she could travel to PI in her dreams but it would all seem as a dream to her so she'd forget it.
And she released Papika right?
Not sure if Mimi or any sane part of her was actually there, or how much influence it had though.
The de-aging was supposedly due to the unstable nature of that part of pure illusion.
So this guy is Salt's dad, right? It explains his obsession and thus goal of reviving Mimi to merge Pure Illusion and the real world. Asclepius' resources and lab equipment makes sense if they're the remains of the lab which was originally researching Pure Illusion and experimenting on Mimi. They're even named after Asclepius, the greek god of medicine, praying to a giant version of his staff that you see on the side of hospitals, and their original work on Pure Illusion seemed to be with the intent of medical application. Also there's the fact that in myth Asclepius infamously revived the dead, and was punished by Zeus for doing so. Now the organization we see is praying to him while their ultimate goal is the revival of their seemingly-dead godlike figure, Mimi.
He's got to be one of the most mishandled characters in the show. It's hilarious how he went from ominous and threatening in the first 9 episodes to a bumbling fanatic buffoon in the next two, before getting blown the fuck out in history's biggest St. Patrick's Day party.
While I don't think there's any direct confirmation, I think it's pretty clear he's supposed to be Salt's dad yes.
I actually kinda liked the fact that it wasn't completely spelled out
"Mimi-sama" is the dead giveaway. He calls her that both in the flashback as Salt's Dad, and in the present as the Grand Wizard. Nobody else calls her that, even the other pinheads just call her "Amorphous"
It makes sense in every single way.
He seemed to be the one in charge before.
We saw him go insane, and now the organization is a crazy cult. His way of acting seems consistent between both.
Plus the fact that both are important characters in a show that doesn't exactly have a huge cast.
If it's him, it makes perfect sense and doesn't conflict with anything. We basically get to see him when he was sane, when he goes insane, and much later once he's gone full crazy.
I haven't looked into her much yet, but she's very similar to Cocona (which is probably thematically why they don't end up together; seeking deeper partnership from someone similar to you won't cause you to grow as a person). Yayaka also doesn't want to carry the burden of deciding her own future, but the only difference between her and Cocona is that Yayaka actually has someone else around to tell her what she should do; Asclepius. When asked by Cocona about amorphous' wish-granting capabilities, Yayaka doesn't give a direct answer because she doesn't have a wish. She was practically raised by Asclepius and her life has been given direction by them since she was young. And by Yayaka's existence we can see what would happen if Cocona did find someone/something that could tell her what to do, instead of growing into a person who could forge her own path with her own hopes and desires. Contrasted with Cocona, who is a model student, Yayaka is lazy and unconcerned with exerting effort. Even a from a cursory glance at her design you can tell this, she disobeys the school dress code by wearing a sweater over her uniform, and dyes her hair like the most typical of wannabe-too-cool-for-school kids. She feels she doesn't have to try hard at school because Asclepius' orders give her life meaning, and thus she doesn't need to find meaning in life herself. She's only at school because she was told to monitor Cocona anyway, right?
Inevitably she does realise that Cocona is important to her and rather than just doing as she is told, she motivates herself to be able to fight for her own genuine desires, transforming thanks to her willpower to protect Cocona. Despite the artificial nature their relationship was built on, Cocona really has become a true friend to Yayaka.
As for her magical girl design, the most notable thing to me is the legs, whereas Cocona and Papika's fade-away black boots on one leg each were obviously implying an inherent link between them, Yayaka's lacks that. Although her transformation is driven by her desire to protect Cocona, what it's truly symbolic of is her breaking free of her dependence on others. Unlike Cocona and Papika, her magical girl design is completely standalone. Cocona and Papika come in a set together and are meant for each other, whereas Yayaka's is notable for not having any design elements reliant on another character's design. By transforming she's reached the end of her character arc, which is blossoming into her own person and being motivated to do something of her own volition, NOT because anybody told her to.
>I actually kinda liked the fact that it wasn't completely spelled out
I like that too, it's something I appreciate a lot in media, and something Flip Flappers excels at. It doesn't "lower" itself to the audiences' level to explain things clearly to us, but rather it leaves all the necessary hints and pieces of the puzzle so that the audience can put in the effort and raise themselves up to the show. This is especially rare in anime which often seems all too eager to exposit information to the viewers to make sure nobody is lost or misunderstanding the clear message the writer/director had in mind.
It feels like Flip Flappers and similar works respects the viewer and trusts them to keep up.
Even episode 1, which seems like a crazy clusterfuck of an LSD trip had some people in the first threads piece together an incredibly accurate summary of what was happening just based on the clues and minor events going on in the episode that tied into the bigger picture.
Iro's painting from episode 1 is the exact same shot as Mimi laying the pool of water after being defeated in episode 13.
Rewatching the first few episodes was so much fun for me, because even small scenes like Yayaka picking up Cocona suddenly made so much sense. She was obviously send to watch over her very closely after what happened the day before.
It was so satisfying to finally notice Cocona's sore arm in episode 2 was a result of Asclepius putting a tracking chip in her in the after-credits scene of episode 1, which is how Yayaka and the twins are able to follow Cocona to every Pure Illusion for the rest of the show.
Oh that's a nice analysis of her.
So it seems Yayaka and Cocona do share a few things in common, that could be a thing that helps them understand each other as friends, a common ground, that's nice.
And is it me or does it sound like the OP of the show, the lyrics, fit her the most?
Papika wanted Cocona, Cocona was lost, but it's Yayaka who was stuck being just a tool.
So I guess her character growth was more about herself than about others, in that case it's another thing also reflected with her henshin.
>By transforming she's reached the end of her character arc, which is blossoming into her own person and being motivated to do something of her own volition, NOT because anybody told her to.
That's a nice way to put it. It's almost like if she got some sort of well deserved closure.
>It's almost like if she got some sort of well deserved closure.
I'd damn well say so. Unfortunately I have nothing to say on the topic of the RGB thing you mentioned; this if the first time I've heard the theory mentioned. Could be interesting, it is curious that her hair turns green.
Off the top of my head, maybe it has something to do with her adoption of Uexkull in the very end. I remember many threads ago an anon mentioned that Uexkull represented Cocona's maidenhood or something like that, if so the passing of Uexkull from Cocona to Yayaka might have been symbolic (who are we kidding, it obviously is, there's no in-universe reason for Cocona to give up her pet suddenly) and Yayaka's green hair ties back into that. Admittedly I'm not well-verse in either theory unfortunately, so can't draw much conclusions.
Yayaka's color pattern is the reverse of the other two
Well it's not much of a big theory. And there's not much to it. It might just be an interesting coincidence, or some random thing the director wanted to reference, like all the episode titles.
The girl's normal hair colors are the primary colors.
Blue, Red, Yellow.
But in their henshin they become the RGB colors.
Red, Green, Blue.
And I just thought it was interesting that in a similar way that Cocona and Papika changed colors, Yayaka's color was the combination of hers and Cocona.
The Uexkull thing is another interesting thing people have come up with with might or might not be related.
Another interesting thing though is that when Uexkull transformed and helped Cocona in episode 2, her hair had shifted from blue to Yellow and she looked surprisingly similar to Yayaka.
Just more random interesting things.
It's like poetry.
Great catch on episode 2 there, I like how they disguise that by colour-shifting the entire scene because of the lava scenery so the hair colour doesn't stand out so much.
You remember all the low camera angle shots of the girls in swimsuits? My guess is that.
Well, there's certain corners of the internet where people seem to like watching a medium full of things they also seem to hate, for some reason, just so they can go on and complain about how every camera angle, or how the intent of a shot, or the gaze of the viewer, are all part of a problem.
But that's their business, they have shit taste. I feel sorry for them.
/a/ loved that episode.
Fuck yeah, robots, gattai, cool speeches, tsun Yayaka, explosions, beams, butts, armpits, insert song, cool giant monster, cool pops, sentai shit. It was beautiful.
My favorite episode mostly due to how cool they finished it off with Yayaka finally accepting her feelings, joining the girls and all 3 together achieving the coolest looking finisher gatta/finisher attack.
This right here was among my favorite scenes in the show.
I liked Yayaka since the start and I waited so long to see her finally switch teams, even if it was for one episode, she could work along Cocona and Papika and it made me so happy.
LET'S FLIP FLAPPING!
Actually, there might even be deeper meaning in that.
The subtractive colours are when the characters are dependent on other characters/forces in their lives. For Yayaka, she has yellow hair when she is dependant on Asclepius. For Cocona and Yayaka, it's when they transform and try (and fail) to emulate each other's strengths.
The additive colours are when each character becomes independent of external forces and capable of standing on their own. For Yayaka it's upon being able to transform finally, while for Cocona and Papika it's both of the early points of their lives before they learned to grow by learning from each other, as well as their state at the end of the show in which they become confident in their own selves. Although they are nigh inseperable by the time they don their wedding dress outfits and regain their normal hair colours, most importantly they are not dependant on each other.
One thing I still can't make sense of, what was the significance or symbolism of the pipe where Papika lives and where they first visit Pure Illusion? I feel like there's more to it, but I can't quite pin it down.
Is it just a simple visual representation of the idea of descending down, through a pipe, into the unknown?
Nah, that's just yurifag delusion. They love each other like family, as evidence by no actual romance. When I say romance, I mean real romance, not yurifag headcanon romance.
> Well, there's certain corners of the internet where people seem to like watching a medium full of things they also seem to hate, for some reason, just so they can go on and complain about how every camera angle, or how the intent of a shot, or the gaze of the viewer, are all part of a problem.
I mean it was clearly fanservice, which isn't exactly unusual for Chinese cartoons. But the out of place swimsuits showed Yayaka being exposed, finally beginning to open up and show her true self.
Maybe I'm beginning to overthink things.
I swear to god anon, why do you want to start this shit?
I don't think there was any strong symbolism of the pipe in particular. If you want to draw symbolism from it, I'd look at the pipe's environment instead, which seemed to be some sort of dumb of industrial equipment in the woods next to the schoolyard, notice all the roadblocks and stuff Cocona passes when she wanders over to the pipe.
Maybe it was Mario reference but I think it's far more likely that's a coincidental parallel, unlike episode two's PI being down a "rabbit hole", which I refuse to believe is not a clear allusion to Alice in Wonderland.
Keep in mind that we also find out soon that that very pipe is actually Papika's home where she lives, so you could say that it's also symbolising Cocona being forcibly pulled down into Papika's own world, or rather, her worldview.
It was also an entire episode that played on super sentai, giant robots, super mecha sort of tropes.
It was obvious that's what the episode was going, it was one of the overall goofiest and most light hearted episodes of the show, just before an extremely serious and dramatic episode. It was a breather sort of episode.
The constant scenes with pops warning the girls he had another new weapon, and maybe they were the ones that could use it...if they believed in themselves enough to handle it.
And the fucking insert song, that was just so fun for the sake of being fun, cliche and cheese but played straight.
High fanservice camera shots for the pilots during action scenes are a staple of the mecha genre.
And they were deliberately done in silly ways, fitting the rest of the episode. It was funny.
It was fanservice done 100% right.
Start what? This isn't a yuri board, no one is obliged to indulge in your delusions. If you have actually, definitive examples of romance then post them, but I'm not interested in head canon.
Gold? These threads are Eva tier armchair psychoanalysis. It's general circlejerk levels of "let me explain to you the inner workings of my favorite characters mind based on a whole lot of nothing".
I think you're right, it's just such an unusual environment and iconic setting in the show I feel like its meaning should be clearer. I suppose it is just the idea of moving between worlds.
Going off into the wood where you shouldn't go is an ever present theme in fairy tales. All the warnings are there to stop Cocona because you don't know what you'll find in the unknown. Papika lives between worlds, or between the subconscious and the conscious or the walled garden and the unknown, however you want to put it.
It's okay anon, we can't all be as smart as Papika. I even hear she has a PhD in second wave feminist theory.
Well, there are the vaginas.
Many many of them.
Plenty dented vaginas too.
Those are actually symbolisms related to part of the thematic aspects of the show because the author was really into some branch of esoteric psychology where that sort of imagery carries a lot of meaning and is related to some of the Mimi tropes, as a sort of terrible/great mother archetype of that psychology.
Some other anons even got books about it and really explained it pretty well in past threads, all the images of it in the show seem pretty straight forward references of stuff, and the director/author has cited those books as material he read as inspiration.
The girl fanservice didn't even feel out of place to me, I suppose because it was packed between so much other anime fanservice.
I need to rewatch that episode now, because reasons.
>Animu was about growing up and making your own choices
>Mimi chose her daughter's lover
Looks like fanservice in the imaginary world to me. Did Cocona actually go along with it? No? Didn't think so.
I didn't see any tripfags or Crack-kun quoting 20 people, so I said becoming.
The vagina symbolism there was about descending back into infantilism, letting the ego take over and not having to go though all the struggle of developing and controlling the ego. Thinking of the three girls as the id, ego and super-ego is the easiest way to read it.
But really, I feel like Iroha had a deeper connection with PI than even episode 6 let on to. Did she draw a picture of Mimi, or are they both just making reference to the painting "Ophilia"? Her painting (pic related) is in an extremely similar style to the Pure Illusion Cocona and Yayaka are fighting in before discover the gate to Iroha's memories. The question is, did Iroha model her painting after Pure Illusion which she possibly saw in dreams, or did that Pure Illusion model itself after Iroha's paintings? The only other times we see Pure Illusions directly associated with people other than Cocona is Uexkull's PI, which makes sense because he entered the pipe first, and Salt's father's, which looked like the world viewed under a microscope, reflecting his scientific nature as a person. Papa-Salt's PI is also the only other instance of a "hell gate" leading to the person's deeper subconcious present, but presumably that's because he was using ELPIS to either direct Papika and Mimi to his PI, or shape PI in the image of his mind. Obviously Iroha wasn't using ELPIS, so why was episode 6's PI so closely related to her art, and why did it lead to her deeper subconcious memories?
Care to catch me up on this vagina symbolism thing, like examples? Sounds interesting.
>Thinking of the three girls as the id, ego and super-ego is the easiest way to read it.
I supposed Papika is the id, Yayaka is the ego, and Cocona is the superego? They fit surprisingly well, except in how they interact. This way of framing them would imply that Papika and Cocona are pulling Yayaka to either side, wouldn't it? Or is my understanding of Freud's theories just flawed (absolutely possible).
It was hot in a sexual way too.
I even fapped to Cocona wearing that dress.Wish there was more fanart of it.
>Eva tier armchair psychoanalysis
Right on, Eva is indeed garbage tier psychoanalysis
Any theories on what the actual fuck the title is supposed to mean? Closest thing I've gathered is that "flappers" was a term from like the 1920s referring to a fashionable young woman who defies typical conventions. Flip could refer to many things in relation to that, such as Cocona and Papika being flappers that flip into other worlds.
This doesn't sit too well with me though because it doesn't explain the in-universe use of the title, such as why the organization is called Flip Flap and why "Flip Flapping" becomes the magical phrase needed to transform.
And Anno is just a babby playing with his Frued compared to Oshiyama
I just gave you my trip, so technically anyone can be me now. We need more trip friends in these threads so we can make them last forever.
>Yayaka's combat outfit with its back ripped off
Lewd cloth destruction.
Papika is the id, Yayaka is the super-ego and Cocona is the ego. Yayaka is morally corrupted in a lot of ways, which makes it interesting. Freud believed the super-ego was society if I remember correctly, and you can certainly say Yayaka isn't entirely socialised correctly to begin with, but she develops.
Its been a long time since I read Freud, but he believed the id was the first part of the pysche to develop, then the ego and lastly the super-ego. I don't think there's much complex about the vagina symbolism, like >>153525152 said, it's pretty clear. Cocona squeezes back though a pipe into a soft, warm room with Papika where she doesn't have to worry about the world outside.
So many good questions.
>Salt's father's, which looked like the world viewed under a microscope, reflecting his scientific nature as a person.
Oh, so that's what it was.
It's the little details that matter and save the last few episodes from being truly bad. Some of the show's best scenes are hidden in there, they're just interspersed between relatively poorly animated fight scenes with Mimi.
That is definitely not what we need.
See, armchair (profession) is used to poke fun at someone who isn't actually knowledgeable in a particular field but pretends to be and pretends to engage in intellectual discourse, usually in the internet. "Shitposter" isn't a profession or a field of study, so the insult doesn't work that way. You're really stupid though, so I don't blame you for not understanding.
I'm gonna get the thing framed on my wall one of these days.
No thanks. Not interested in our circlejerks and armchair psychology.
How about you all fuck off and leave /a/? Madoka threads spawned literally the worst cancer this board has ever seen, and you're recreating it here.
I was in all the threads while it aired. There was great discussion about the ideas and references in the show and where the creators drew inspiration from. After it aired, there were a few threads about sending cards to the creators, then a bunch of yurifag circlejerk threads, and now a bunch of people trying to overanalyze the series, desperate to apply their own personal spin to the pseudo-psychoanalysis going on. This happens a lot, and yes over analysis is a very real, very stupid thing.
When the show was airing, people would actually show pieces of art, stories, and ideas and how they were expressed through visual symbolism in the show, and used the dialog as cues to interpret what was going on. Now, people are applying first year undergraduate level pysch knowledge to try to invent character profiles that fit the images in their head, regardless of what actually happened in the show. This happens with most generals circlejerks that become generals. When you have a show like Madoka or FF that actually has direct references to art or literature and also attracts yurifags, the threads are doomed as soon as the show is done airing. If you want to see what was discussed before, just check the archive.
>and also attracts yurifags
Yurifags have nothing to do with it. Any show that attracts deepfags will end up like this. Just look at Eva threads; the yurifagging is replaced by waifu wars.
Eva got broadcast in English all over the place and brought in reddit tier psychoanalysts decades ago, and those people never let go. For current airing stuff, it's only the shows that bring in yurifags that get this bad.
I'm disappointed I missed the show when it was airing now. I loved the story and the characters. I enjoy psychology too, but I'm sure I wouldn't like up to your standards so it'd be interesting to know what others thought. I'll check out the archived threads.
He's pointing out that Monogatari doesn't feature yuri, yet is a currently airing series that recieves innumerable discussion threads reading deeply into it and analysing everything thoroughly, thus disproving your misguided hypothesis that yurifag appeal is the only thing that causes new shows to recieve deeper psychoanalysis.
Just look at the airing threads. Literally all those things were discussed each week without any of the bullshit here. The worst thing those threads had were some militant yurifags misquoting an interview, and occasional flip flop sales shitposting.
Except I specified that this phenomenon occurs right after shows finish airing when the cesspool threads have the same 30 people circlejerking indefinitely, like Madoka threads. Monogatari threads only get active when new content is about to come out, and then right around when it's released. He (you) didn't prove anything.
The meaning of the last episodes wasn't discussed until after the talk show and translated interviews. It's when Jung's Great Mother/Terrible Mother connection really became apparent. When it was airing it was mostly shitposting about writer change. The threads when the first two episodes aired were the best, really. It was before the majority of /a/ caught onto this show.
>first year undergraduate level pysch
Let me put it in small words so you would understand: There was literally no analysis, there was literally a rediscovery of the textbooks used by the director to construct symbolism. If you don't even know what I'm saying that only proves you just came into here to shitpost because this shit is not some hidden sekrit club stuff, it's been published and translated for like two months.
And by the way, you don't even know what is pseudo-psychoanalysis because people were not talking about psychoanalysis. People were talking about Jung and analytical psychology.
What was up with this scientist dude? Was he representative of something from the real world? I'm thinking Hidaka, which would mean that entire Pure Illusion is his, similar to Uexkull's from ep2 and Iroha's from ep6.
What even determines whether or not a PI is based on someone? Aside from the ELPIS system of course which doesn't come into play very often.
Or does it?
There are countless other examples: Steins;Gate, Yahari, or Mob Psycho/OPM. Not to mention that you still only have a reference base of two (Flip Flappers/Madoka) that somehow proves this deepfag/yurifag connection.
>misquoting an interview
Which interview was that, again?
Monogatari threads are not up when we're not near new content, except the odd lewd art dumps and waifu wars.
Ah right, I forgot "really feeling that writer change." As far as the mother goes, we discussed the duality of her personality, as it wasn't exactly subtle. Affixing a name to it a comparing it to a Jung paradigm doesn't actually bring anything new to the discussion of the ideas themselves were already brought up, sans the naming.
>Discussing intro psych textbooks
>Not first year undergraduate analysis
I don't think you understand what the words you're saying mean. Next you'll tell me that the ideas presented in Eva aren't just intro psych stuff mixed in with biblical references. You should stop trying to sound smart, you're not really good at it.
It's pseudo analysis because nothing that people like Freud or Jung theorized was based in actual biopsychology, just their own ideas on social psychology, which while interesting aren't really concrete analysis.
Nah it was pretty great.
None of those go into the same kind of "analysis" these threads try to. Hell, Yahari is just a bunch of kids mad they got bullied in high school trying to project on the shitty MC and his adventures in the world of fake whores. MP is just fujos posting that fag Reigen.
Oh and the interview was the one about yuri where yurifags decided that her saying "I'm not a silly kid who thinks only real lesbians qualify yuri like I did in my youth." somehow meant "There are actual lesbians in this show."
>No thanks. Not interested in our circlejerks and armchair psychology.
It's not actually psychology, it's more like a sort of mythology related to concepts from some authors, basically it is some guy's armchair psychology that then the author used as inspiration for some of the themes in the show's plot and visual designs.
People got pages of those books and stuff was explained to understand what the director had in mind at times.
Judging by the OPs it's not because they're intensely psychoanalysing the series to its core, nor is it because they're discussing which girls belong in a relationship together.
It's said it was Bu chan's PI.
Pops has that one eye google that looks like Bu's eye and he fulfills a similar role, assisting the flip flappers.
The episode's fanservice low camera angle shots were also taken from what would be Bu's perspective if he was there.
But it's hard to tell.
Maybe it was Hidaka's.
It is said that ep 3 was Sayuri's PI due to the things it drew inspiration from, she has posters of some of them.
>We're talking about pseudo psychoanalysis and offering up deep (read: fanfic tier) explanations about characters personalities and deep emotions
>Stop claiming we're talking about pseudo psych
Are you ok?
Yeah I never paid much attention to the id ego superego discussion in this thread because they're mostly pasting opinions from a previous blog made by a Jungian psychotherapist.
What's up with that faggot?
So who cares if there's someone going DEEP or if there's armchair psychology, or yurifaggotry or people asking shit that has already been answered before.
As long as there's no trip circlejerking or off topic shit it's all just healthy /a/nime related faggotry, welcome to /a/.
There wasn't even shitposting, just "not high enough for his standards"posting.
The tripfags were ignored, everything discussed has been something related to the show.
Look you're free to post anything you want but if all you're doing is telling people to stop posting things you don't like then you're not really adding anything to the thread or the board or the discussion, you become the shitposter.
And keep in mind there's still going to be people watching the show late who will also like to discuss it.
So there's nothing wrong with them having a chance to come up with their own ideas and discuss the show from their perspective, they'll get a chance to discuss it too even if they're wrong, if you dislike it then you can just link them to the previous discussion on that topic or close the tab, whining endlessly about it isn't contributing anything.
Now you start to make sense. I was never a fan of the id ego superego model as an interpretation which didn't make sense to me anyway but like 99% of the prior discussion was about Jung and his symbols.
Guy's name is Jake_of_all_Trades. I can't link it here but he called collective unconscious as DPI as early as ep 6 and was confirmed by director two months later.
The yuniko interview? I recall it wasn't much about flip flap and that she said her views on yuri had changed and now she considered stuff like kinimozaic as yuri. However, it becomes more clear when you see the "rules" she gave to the director like making Pops into a midget, or how she gayed up locodol that she is the p/u/rist type. God bless her because she apparently also infected the director judging by his favorites in twatter.
>30 people who were in the Madoka threads found a new show to propagate their cancer in
>But you should leave them alone
Nah, you should all fuck off.
>Literally says "haha, I'm not a dumb kid anymore who gets mad about fake yuri"
>Yurifags take this to mean that she's a militant yurifag as everything is gay
This is why you're all retarded. If she wanted them to actually be gay, they'd kiss and be in a romantic relationship. But they weren't.
>God bless her because she apparently also infected the director judging by his favorites in twatter.
>Told he's shitposting
Fine, suit yourself. Hope you have fun wasting your time.
>Faggots trying to start the next general on /a/ tell people who aren't in on the circlejerk that everything they don't like is shitposting
Why do you think you get to decide what's shitposting?
Whoever say the previous threads were a paradise is out of his mind. When anons analysed the artistic references mostly out fun even in those threads you got retards triggered because they thought they were trying to sound deep. With that in mind there's no much difference with these character theories. More over, these discussions have turned more relevant due to recent translations. As for the yurifags the fuck they being lured? not gonna gonna on how they even used flower language for that shit. The thing is they never left and were here since the first ep when the staff said it was intentional. The art we got also didn't help, it was either pairing art or yayaka solos. Even the director and writer loved it
And the madoka threads comparison is stupid. Whatever is left of the flipflags is more willing to keep discussing inane interpretations or spam art. There's more unity. And then you have one retard over reacting that may drag one or two anons when the thread is dying vs groups dedicated to vandalized any discussion. Some shit just won't fly. At any rate, overall it was a fun experience. See you guys in season 2!
Thanks, I'll have a dig though that.
I was posting the Freudian stuff. I only recently watched the show and haven't read much of other peoples views, so feel free to give me shit for repeating ideas but it's the first time for me. Apparently we're not allowed to discuss anything here unless we're PhDs anyway.
There's no general circlejerking, you're making that up to justify telling people to stop posting.
That's nothing but paranoid crazy ranting and whining.
You're not being told to stop posting anything because others dislike it, go ahead, post anything you want to discuss.
You're just being informed that the paranoid and crazy ranting from before is in fact shitposting.
I'm still waiting for that ayanero taichou doujin.
So you think it's always the same people discussing the same thing over and over?
And you don't think that sounds paranoid and crazy now?
There's a lot of people out there, many watching the show recently.
The discussion will always take similar territory because it is all derived from the same show, obviously.
But to stretch that and assume it's the exact same people, when they're all anonymous posters and you have 0 reason to believe it's the same people, that's just ridiculous.
Eat shit FlipShitters
>director literally says that the yuri teasing is intentional
>there's no yuri whatsoever guys
Anon, maybe you need to browse /a/ less.
It's making you paranoid.
Yes, teasing. No actual romance, just close female friends and family.
You're right, I'm sure it's 30 new people each time who just finished watching and happen to use the same images and make the same cockona posts each time.
He thinks he can recognize people based on their reaction images!
So you know who I am based on this popular Papika reaction image huh?
At the very least, it means that the directors left it up to the audience to decide on the nature of their relationship. There are lots of other examples in the show itself, I don't see why this would be any different.
>do you love me
>do you mean as a friend
>why would you ask that
>let's do something dun
>but I have to find Papika
It's preety clear Cocona loves Papika romantically, notice she never said no to the sex
>He thinks he's fooling anyone
A small group of people talking about the same shit over and over again, with discussion inevitably devolving into a bunch of fanfic/doujin wishes/"Let me tell you about the deepest depths of this characters soul based on my totally legit understanding of their personality". Leaving out the word "edition" in the OP doesn't change that.
Nah, it means you got baited. Papa Salt and Mimi had a relationship as it was explicitly shown. Saying Papika and Cocona are romantically involved is just silly yurifag shipping.
You forgot to mention that Papika is her aunt and her friend. If you can point me to actual romantic acknowledgment from either of them that isn't just bait, I'd love to see it. For whatever reason yurifags seem to think bait + wanting the ship to sail = actual romance.
>nah, it means you got baited
Isn't it weird how bait only applies to yuri shows. You don't see people claiming that a show like Hyouka had "romance" bait.
I'll never understand why you Americans always want to tell people they like and think the wrong things.
I hope there's a Yayaka figure someday. But I guess first they'll have to release that Papika figure they're making. And then there would have to come a Cocona figure before they could get to a Yayaka fig. And that's assuming they could even get there.
I guess we'll see how the odds stack once their first one comes out.
Wonfest is in a week or 2 right? i still have to live up to my promise.
No, he wanted them to be girls, and would have given them some distinct female features to make it clear that they were tomboyish girls but I think it was someone on a producer level who wanted at least some to still be males for some reason so he at least tried to make them girly boys.
People don't complain about the romance in Hyouka not being conclusive? Are you insane?
I'll never understand why "I just want to have fun!" means it's ok to shit things up and be stupid.
Girls will be girls.
Papikana was Mimi's partner, Papika views herself as a separate identity and tells Salt as much. The fact that she knew Cocona as a baby in what she regards as a previous life doesn't change her feelings on Cocona as a whole.
Papika's wish that came true mentioned in episode 4 was to meet up with the girl who saved her from the tree prison in PI. That is the reason for her devotion, not Papikana's connection to Cocona.
The fact that the show parallels Mimi and Salts relationship with Cocona and Papikas should tell you a little about what kind of relationship is being conveyed here.
As for romantic acknowledgement during their second mutual love confession while wearing their wedding dress battle armour Cocona calls back to the question Succubus Papika asked her on the hotel bed: "Does it have to be the Papika you know?" with the answer: "it has to be you". The callback to the scene in which the nature of their love was directly questioned definitely supports the romantic reading of their relationship as does the unambiguously non platonic response from Papika to Cocona as she says this.
Yayaka's position as Cocona's friend is repeatedly highlighted in contrast to Papika's. The show even spells this out for the audience by having each state their motivation for saving Cocona: Yayaka's is friendship while Papika's is love. Cocona's differing responses to each is also highlighted. To do this so as to show the difference between a platonic or familial relationship and a friendship would be unnecessary. It is there to show one relationship as platonic and the other as romantic.
Also Cocona's jealously at the thought of Papika and Mimi being partners is obviously born of a romantic attachment to her rather than a familial one.
Papika was Mimi's friend. She's sure as hell not the one who put a baby in her. As for the rest, I see a whole lot of bait and wishful thinking, but no actual romance or romantic confession. It's heavy bait, but at the end of the day it's still literally just bait. No romance was delivered.
If the series ended where it was now with no romantic conclusion, people would lose their shit screaming, not say "Oh well the signs are there. Time to whip up some fanfic and pretend it happened."
Oh no, my feelings.
>Papikana was Mimi's partner, Papika views herself as a separate identity and tells Salt as much. The fact that she knew Cocona as a baby in what she regards as a previous life doesn't change her feelings on Cocona as a whole.
>Papika's wish that came true mentioned in episode 4 was to meet up with the girl who saved her from the tree prison in PI. That is the reason for her devotion, not Papikana's connection to Cocona.
That's actually really sweet, I like the connections between Papikana and Cocona but I welcome more having a stronger connection between Papika and Cocona. for the purpose of their romance.
>As for romantic acknowledgement during their second mutual love confession while wearing their wedding dress battle armour Cocona calls back to the question Succubus Papika asked her on the hotel bed: "Does it have to be the Papika you know?" with the answer: "it has to be you".
Oh wow I completely missed that detail. That's a really nice callback.
It's there, it's clear, it fits the definitions.
You just need to pay attention and discern it.
That might not be the way of a typical romance but this isn't a typical love story.
Having this part of the show there, waiting to be seeked out actually makes things interesting in a different way, maybe it's not your kind of thing. But I sure love those sweet little details that emerge through close observation.
There's a huge difference between making stuff up vs recognizing and following detailed hints laid by the series for the viewers but you seem to be confusing those two up.
No I didn't. Someone said Hyouka didn't have actual romance, and I said that if it ended now, people would indeed scream about a lack of romance.
>It's there, you just need to be wearing googles
Tweet the director and writer and ask them. If they're actually gay for each other and they're so hard on about real yuri, I'm sure they'll say yes. If not, expect them to be best friends like PPK and Mimi, and expect Cocona to find a man and get knocked up, just like Mimi.
I definitely wasn't claiming Papika put a baby in Mimi.
If you wish to ignore the clear romantic nature of that confession and the structure of the entire show that's your business. Not every sign of romantic affection is a kiss.
You seem to struggle so hard accepting romance if it's not spelled out for you that I'm reminded of this guy.
Never change /a/.
Age gap Papika and Cocona is the worst ship in Flip Flappers
The best ship is YayaPapiCoco
You said partner. You know what that word means in most non professional contexts, right?
If you wish to construe the story to be a story of romance and not one of friendship and family, I know nothing short of an OVA about them getting boyfriends will change your mind.
>Ha, he just can't see it!
I'm serious, tweet them and ask them if they're actually lesbians and romantically involved. They talked about their influences and ideas for the show, so it's not like they're tight lipped about the ideas they had for production. Just ask them.
Yayaka accepts her place as Cocona's friend in that scene and accepts that it is different than Papika's place. Her true feelings are irrelevant to what the scene is telling the audience.
She's forced to accept it again more cruelly later when she's watching them holding hands in their bridal forms: "those two, it's not fair." But she seems to be moving on in her final shot.
This context all helps push the romantic reading of Cocona and Papika's relationship.
Yayaka's love could have been something she developed without sexual connotations though.
Cocona was important to Yayaka, she cared about her and loved her. It's more than just a friend. But there weren't many hints of a romantic or sexual element to it either though, except perhaps her prolonged staring in episode 5.
Besides that is there anything else?
You know asking an author about what they meant by their work is really annoying, but you're free to do it, they'll probably answer to feel free to interpret it however you want
After watching ep 8 I found myself really wishing for a threesome end, but it never happened.
How crazy would it have been if they really had gone for something like that though?
I can't think of a single show that has ended in a three way yuri love story.
Too scared to actually ask? If you ask about which psych paradigms they referenced, they'll answer. If you ask about paintings or optical illusions, they'll answer. If you ask about Iro and the two colors, they'll answer. If you ask about romance and it's there, they'll answer.
The point was the juxtaposition between how yurifags react compared to non-yurifags (delusion vs screaming). I then pointed out they're both equally cancerous behaviours, so does it really matter which option a group takes?
partner is the term Papika uses for her relationship with Mimi. Of course Mimi and Papika's partnership actually is platonic.
You are making the same mistake that Cocona did by misconstruing that relationship as a romantic one. The fact that Cocona sees "partner" as romantic and becomes jealous because of it shows she herself is romantically interested in Papika.
>People are actually making interesting points and putting effort in their posts
>Then, this butthurt retard comes in and starts to scream armchair psychology, reddit and bait to everyone
>He thinks that he's actually contributing to the quality of the board and isn't shitposting
in Yayaka's case those could easily be construed as regret over Cocona getting involved in PI or regret over lying to her as much as anything else. Not much actually happens in the nurses room.
You may be confusing fan art with the show, as there were quite a few good pieces made with that theme in mind.
I'd settle with a scene with all 3 of them being friends and hanging out and laughing
I'd never though I wanted something I know will never happen this much before
Why? Creators like to talk about their work and to their fans. That's why they do interviews and whatnot.
>Copypasting a blog and writing interpretive fanfic
Still, all seems to me more like the non romantic sort of yuri love.
Like, I don't think it's debatable with Cocona and Papika, that's clearly presented as romantic by the end, with everything coming together.
But with Yayaka it seems more like they actually wanted it to look like that sort of vague maybe yuri type of love, the sort that doesn't actually turn into a full romance.
Yayaka's obsession was always more about her place alongside Cocona, her position as her childhood and best friend being jeopardized, and that making her feel put aside and perhaps abandoned, along with jealousy for someone who she might have thought was replacing her. But the fact that she comes to terms with it so well makes it seem even more like her love was that of a friend. She could accept that Papika was now part of Cocona's life because she could also feel reassured that she wasn't losing her friend and nothing was going to get between each other anymore.
With a friends sort of love it's possible to be ok with loving someone who also loves someone else. But with a romantic love that's much harder to come to terms with.
But of course I could be wrong too, maybe her feelings did go beyond that.
Same here anon.
If they ever released official art like this, with all 3 of them just hanging out together, having fun, in a perfectly friendly way I'd be so so damn happy.
I hope, Yayaka apologised with all her heart so surely Cocona won't stay mad at her
You do know that most authors enjoy seeing how their fans interpret their works in different ways, right? There's nothing they find more boring than the kind of cocksucker who is incapable of interpreting subtle hints and only parrots things that are explicitly said/shown in their work. Labeling any and every analysis that try to interpret things beyond what's outright said/shown to the viewer as fanfic is stupid, boring and contributes nothing to anything really, it just paints you as a bitch.
You seem to be confusing exploration of themes and ideas presented in the work with desperate fanfic brought about from a fetish. You also seem to think that all authors love "creative" interpretation of their work and don't have a clear idea of what they're writing. You're stupid.
Initially Papika hated Yayaka. Yayaka disliked Papika.
The animosity between those two grew through the show but it also evolved.
The hate seemed to fade away, and they developed a mutual respect for each other.
Perhaps even an appreciation too. At the very least they accepted each other as part of their friend's life.
That's a good ground for friendship to bloom because they've already gone through all the rough patches and have developed a strong impression of each other, it's why hate can turn into love so easily.
mind controlled Cocona reacts to the apology, she saves Yayaka from Mimi after she gets her wedding dress and sees her as someone she can go to for help in Salt's PI. I'm pretty sure she's forgiven.
Except people gave solid arguments and pointed clear hints in the show to support said fanfics, whether you like that or not.
>You also seem to think that all authors love "creative" interpretation of their work and don't have a clear idea of what they're writing.
They do, but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are writing. It's just more fun and interesting to read creative and out of the norm interpretations than to read the same boring shit that any potato would be able to figure out.
The thing is, you seem really butthurt with the specific subject that's Yuri. I don't particularly hate nor enjoy Yuri, but I don't get so touchy with mere mention of it, especially when the people mentioning actually bring solid points to support their idea and not just fanwank from tumblr.
Cocona doesn't need to rely on Yayaka for support since she has Papika now, and the show very deliberately didn't patch things up between the two of them. Yayaka may feel like she's a friend but to Cocona she's nothing more than a tool and a petsitter.
Stop responding to shitposts
They're all really good friends. And now they're going to hang out and stuff sheet overcoming personal issues and family problems.
Everyone thinks their fanfic is the correct interpretation. What's your point?
No, "I want to take the bait" isn't a solid point. The author saying "Yeah they're romantically involved"would be a solid point. They commented on everything else, why not this?
Her transformation got me hyped but the battle was unsatisfyingly short
Yeah I ripped it all in superior aac and now keep a couple tracks on my phone. Although there are many very slow background compositions that only work as a background
I don't think it's possible to read Oyashima's interviews and not get that he intended a romantic relationship between Papika and Coconca and went out of his way to protect it in any way he could.
Just don't expect the destination to be as crazy as the journey.
The mark for the changes feels most notable from episode 10 and forward.
It's not bad but it's not the same sort of format and it doesn't follow the same structure as the past episodic part did.
It's still very very good, give it a 3 episode rule.
I really like the fan art
It speaks to me
Here's the questions where they touch on the yuri element of the show. They wouldn't be doing this if romance was not intended.
did you have any influence on the direction of the story as a whole?
Oshiyama: I did, yes. Once the general concept was established and we brought Yuniko Ayana in, we worked together to get the framework of the story built. In the second half of the show we had (Naoki) Hayashi come in to take over the script writing, but by then everything that was supposed to happen was already decided on and it was just a matter of making a script to match it. The schedule was very tight at that point, so having Hayashi there was a huge help. For the first half, I would decide on the core things to have happen each episode, and the script writers would add whatever they wanted on top of that. For example, the yuri elements that Ayana is so good at. That’s something a lot of viewers nowadays find easy to hook into, so it was especially important I think.
Is there anything you’re particular about with regards to yuri?
Oshiyama: I’m actually not very knowledgeable about it. However, in talking with Ayana I think I got a good grasp of “things you shouldn’t do” and “lines you shouldn’t cross” when it comes to yuri. That said, I maybe broke the rules a little on episode seven. That episode features various personalities of Papika, and some of them are rather boyish. Thinking about the yuri perspective, I figured it wouldn’t be good to pair Cocona with a boy her age, so originally I had Papito and Papiya with female bodies too... but Takashi Kojima wanted to make them boys (laughs), so they ended up more male in places. My initial sketches of Papiwo, too, included a sarashi wrapped around her chest as a “definitely still a girl” signal. Also, in episode 8 there’s a boy their age, Occhan, who shows up; I made him a little shorter so he wouldn’t be at eye level with Cocona and the others.
yeah it's great. Oshiyama set out to create a story that is enjoyable both on the base plot level and if you want to look a bit deeper into the meanings and symbolism thrown around.
I feel like he succeeded but each part is buoyed by the other.