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Fate

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Why is Saber always jobbing? Isn't she the best Servant?
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That's kinda the point.
Like, the ENTIRE point.
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>>152975734
She's not even close to being the best.
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>>152977337
Because she's the very best.
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>>152975734
/a/ answer 'because she's a shit'
Real reason is that Shirou is a god awful mage and Saber's stats were utter dogshit.
If Rin summoned her, Saber wouldn't have jobbed because Rin Seibah is even better than KIRRY's Seibah.
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>>152977954
She didn't have that excuse in Zero yet still jobbed hard.
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>>152975734
>Isn't she the best servant
Why do people always say this? All that was said is that Saber might be the strongest class, and it was just Rin saying that. And she was just basing it off the idea that Sabers typically made it far in the war.

At no point was she ever called the strongest servant.

Heracles was called the strongest known servant, and Gilgamesh was called the strongest unknown servant if you get the concept. However even when they were called that it wasn't absolute. Saber beat them both through shounen underdog syndrome. Not necessarily because she's stronger or has better numbers since it isn't that type of series, but because compatibility, luck, and situation are the real strongest factors in this series.

Although Heracles is typically gimped by too many things to normally show his skills. After seeing his Twelve Glories NP in F/SF, he's a dangerous guy normally.
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>>152978221
She only "jobbed" against Gilgamesh, who is the strongest servant by far.
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>>152978497
She jobbed against deermud.
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>>152977954
>Real reason is that Shirou is a god awful mage and Saber's stats were utter dogshit.
Kerry Saber had a few better stats than Rin Saber, and you're a retard if you use the "She was gimped" excuse when talking about Zero. She was called not gimped at all in Zero, she directly said that was her real power.
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>>152975734
During most of Fate/SN she's shit because Shirou is a fucking terrible magus. He doesn't have the circuit capacity to actually support Saber and let her fight at full strength. With an average or above master, like Rin, she can actually fight at full strength and use Excalibur regularly. Shirou is the problem not Saber

>>152978221
She never jobbed in Zero. The fight with Lancer never finished. She straight 1v1'd Beserker and would have lost to Gilgamesh which doesn't say anything because that nigger is busted
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>>152978562
>>152978497

Why did she lose against Gilgamesh in Zero, but win against him in the fate route?
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>>152978562
>With an average or above master, like Rin, she can actually fight at full strength and use Excalibur regularly.
Nice meme, with Rin it was said she could use Excalibur once or twice at most before running out of energy, which is why she didn't use it against Assassin when she saw him, which is basically the same amount as with Shirou

>B-but She was also supporting Shirou
Who is a human magus and doesn't expend nearly as much energy. If Shirou alone can make her unable to handle Saber that much, Then why do you think she could still have Saber use many Excalibur blasts. Saber is easily 10x the manahog Shirou would be, considering Saber in one fight in FSN was said to use 20 fully matured magus worth of energy. Even if she wasn't supporting Shirou, its doubtful she could use more than three Excaliblasts if at best. That's still an amount that isn't too helpful and would be canceled out by Ea if it came down to a beam war.

Only one master can handle Saber using Excalibur without limitations.
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>>152975734
not even the best saberface
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>>152978668
Gil wasn't a jobber in Zero yet. Also Saber didn't have access to Avalon in Zero.

>>152978848
I'm talking about over the course of the war. Shirou couldn't regenerate and stockpile enough prana to support Excalibur being used, Rin could. Also a reality marble isn't exactly light on Prana use. And again I'm talking about the course of a war not just a single fight you happened to pick out
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There's a lot of servants. If you've just read FSN or Zero then you maybe know like 5% of them and are either a secondary or genwunner.

This Karna guy is pretty strong
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>>152979051
Take in account that most that came out after FSN is for milking money, so of course it was gonna end like Yugioh or DBZ with stronger and stronger new guys. When FSN was made Artoria, Heracles and Gil does where supposed to be the top tier.
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>Shirou gave her shitty stats
Saber alter fucking lost to an Archer on 10% power(Shirou with just Archer's arm).
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>>152979286
>"Gotta take into account that everything after the one I wanted didn't count because waaa waaa milk, ruined series, Nasu a shit, milked shit waaa, doesn't count, they ruined it, 2/10" - genwunner babble
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>>152978668
Because Avalon is one of the most broken NP and Saber only has it in Fate,
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>>152979319
Shirou wasn't 10% Archer in power

You're confusing the end of UBW where Archer said he was down to 10% power, and he still destroyed Shirou throughout the entire fight, but lost in terms of ideals. Because he started to wonder "How far can he go? Maybe this kid really can do it" which caused him to stall a bit delivering the last move.

10% was never said in HF

Although Archer did flash on the screen when Shirou fought Saber Alter, and Saber said she was fighting seriously and was surprised when she couldn't kill him, since he did have way more than human power. Point in HF is that as Shirou used the arm, the arm was making him slowly as strong as Archer in some ways. He could run as fast as Kotomine, which was around 50 KPH. He could fall out of a 3 story building without taking damage. Shirou was becoming super human.
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>>152979357
The point is in the story of FSN and Zero it wasn't taking in account that thousand broken servants would be invented much later retard.
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>>152979455
Yet how could Saber instantly incapacitate Archer in their first encounter?
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>>152975734
Jobbers come in two flavors

1.They are strong but not the main event characters so they are used as measuring sticks to show how tough so and so or something or other is.

2.They are broken as fuck and there is litterally nothing at all anyone can do with them so they are perma hobbled to show how tuff they could be.

Saber is the latter. And they can be either really good, or in saber's case boring and shite. There is no middle ground.
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>>152979319
>not true

Saber Alter lost to a Shirou with Archers arm and Rider using Bellerophon. The arm was basically turning him into Archer while also killing him. It's why in Sparks Liner High Shirou actually managed to 1v1 Saber. Also Saber Alter is a little off because of her state of mind
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>>152979573
Even when she's called absolute full power, no limitations or master weighing her down, she still loses the same.

Saying she's broken as fuck and no one could do anything if she's full power is just the wank masters gospel. In reality she'd lose roughly the same even at full power. The one the plot needs to win is the one the plot needs to win.
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that question can be applied to many characters

>why is Gilgamesh always jobbing, isn't he supposed to be the strongest noble spirit?


its because on a story level the "character is established as strong but because of X doesn't always win" is a way of both establishing a villain as threatening by default and still having them be beaten - and the inverse can be applied to protags ( its allows for some suspense/stakes but still rationalizes why they win)
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Everyone is a jobber in fate
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>>152979595
>Also Saber Alter is a little off because of her state of mind
Alter is a saint in HF compared to when she burned the entire town to death in FGO first section. Also unlimited codes or other stories where she did similar things.
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>>152979713
I meant in regards to her fighting not being a crazy bitch. She should basically be a Saber with boosted parameters and unlimited prana but it doesn't really take effect because of her fucked state
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Also protip; Current strongest legit entirely normal hero would probably be Solomon, and then Merlin

Solomon full power vs Arthuria full power outclasses her so badly its not even a contest. She can have Avalon all she wants, he wins.

Although he's currently not summonable
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>>152978668
Butcher isn't a total hack unlike Nasu.

>>152979894
>GO
No.
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>>152978465
Short answer is Saber sucks but got hyped once by Rin and the meme of the strongest servant was born.
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>>152979894
Is Solomon a Reality Warper? I don't how he'll defeat a true immortal opponent then.
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>>152979894
Moses is better than Solomon.
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What was her problem?
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>>152981225
She's Rin
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>>152981129
No shit, he parted the Red Sea with a punch, even Ozymandias is afraidof fighting him 1v1. He also has the Ark of Covenant which is an insta-kill NP against 99% of the servants.
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>>152981398
Joseph is better than Moses.
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>>152981579
Again, no shit. This is Fate, the older a heroic spirit's legend is the stronger it gets. Joseph probably tells you that the dream you had yesterday means that you'll die in 3 seconds and you just die 3 seconds later.
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>>152981780
>The older a heroic spirit legend the stronger it gets.
Then why is Solomon stronger than Gilgamesh?
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>You'll never be able to protect Lancer's smile
Why even live?
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>>152981876
He isn't. You're thinking Goetia. Goetia operates on a higher powerlevel than Solomon.
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>>152981900
>You'll never take Serenity's virginity.
Why even live?
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>>152978668
F/SN stats
STR: B
CON: C
AGI: C
MGI: B
LCK: A
Noble Phantasm: EX

F/Z stats
Strength: B
Endurance: B
Agility: B
Mana: A
Luck: A
Noble Phantasm: EX

Gil got nerfed hard as well by being forced to live off of mostly-dead orphans for a decade.
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>>152979357
Look at how embarassing you are GOfag
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>>152981910
Goetia said that living Solomon was stronger than him even at apex. All of Goetia's power was due to Solomon. And Solomon had even more power originally, some of his powers went with his soul.
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>>152983876
Maybe at his peak, but its possible that Solomon had lost some of his powers due to how in the actual biblical one, that Solomon had made a few decisions that angered God such as allowing Pagan worship, which resulted in God taking back or blocking some of his power.
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the issue isn't that Saber is a bad fighter, she's probably among the top 3 heroes in terms of martial prowess.

problem is that she's dumb as shit and falls for every trick in the book.
>gets her sword caught by a Tekken Character and beaten the shit out of her
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>>152984000
Didn't happen so much in Nasuverse. Although they created an equally strange atheist narrative instead.

Solomon is now the one who ended the age of gods and created the age of man. He gave humans power to decide their own fate, and not be controlled. Also god gave him an omnipotent ring, Solomon gave it back after using it once, saying that a human's power is all that's necessary from this point onward, mankind would walk on their own.

His final NP symbolizes this, as he turns away from god, or some shit. His final NP gives everything back to god and resets it all. Fucking strange story Nasu made though.
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>>152984087
>top 3 heroes in terms of martial prowess
kek
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>>152979595
I meant the bad end where Shirou beats her solo without Rider. Although his mind got corroded there, point is that he still beat Saber with just a fraction of Archer's power.

I mean refer to this question >>152979570
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>>152984392
A "fraction". He had access to way more power in that moment than Saber could have possibly realized. Thats why his brain was fried. He used Archers arm and far surpassed human limits for a moment, like surpassed by a god damn light year. Even then it wasn't enough to actually instagib her just put her down just put her out of fighting shape for I believe two minutes?

Also thats Alter, not Saber. Alter was a little fucked in the head and it had an impact on her fighting ability. In Fate all Saber did was attack without Archer thinking she would. It was basically a sucker punch
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>>152984340
I meant to write top 10 but that kinda slipped out.
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>>152984392
She underestimated him, and he took her by surprise. Also, that put him out of commission for good, frying his nerves and his brain. If anything, it was his loss.
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>>152979051
>if you dont play shitty games that live through name and waifubaiting alone you are a secondary
I bet you are a /vg/ regular
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She one shot an alien who beat most prototypes gods thousands of years ago.
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>>152984000
Fate Solomon didn't have freedom to disobey anyone. He didn't even have "freedom to be angry about his lack of freedom." Don't think of him as human, think of him as something akin to God's Archetype, kind of like Arc is of Gaia. His surname as Roman means Archetype.
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>>152987078
Using full powered Excalibur with all its seals unlocked and Gaia's full support, that's cheating.
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>>152977454
Ash Ketchum is the very best. Saber is the least best.
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>>152987078
An alien which only beat proto dieties(which were also aliens) because she was literally immune to all of them. Sefar has an ability that made her immune to literally everything, except coincidentally one thing, just to wank Saber. How hard is this for people that claim this feat to understand?

>Magic Energy Absorption
>Exclusive skill of Attilaight Cell.
>The body of the Titan, composed of spiritron collectors, will unconditionally absorb "magical energy formulated into techniques" and covert it into HP and Armor values.
>Techniques equate to skills, knowledge, and civilization. To an Anti Cell, there is no better form of nourishment.
>Any form of attack (interference) designed by intellect - however undeveloped the theory behind it may be - will only grant more power to Altera.
>The large firepower of greater magecraft and strategic weapons of science and technology will fuel the fire further.
>On the other hand, while pure magical energy - what can be called life-force itself - will also be mostly absorbed, it can still exert its regular effect.
>Facing against an Anti Cell, it comes down to simply "bludgeoning" it.
>Although this is a troublesome skill that can absorb even physical attacks boosted with Mana Burst, one thing can deal an effective blow. The energy discharge of the holy sword.
>The White Titan that had once appeared upon the surface was repulsed by the holy sword tempered in the inner sea of the Earth.

>>152987164
You say that as though anything else on the planet, including the planet itself stood a chance. She wasn't stronger than the old gods, she just had the one thing Sefar wasn't literally immune to.
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>>152981910
/Gilgamesh/ acknowledged Solomon as "Great King Solomon" and he's willing to follow his lead and support Chaldea even if he became a regular human (in his interlude, he starts addressing Roman as Magician out of blue then correcting himself he calls "himself a Doctor now" and addresses him as Physician next). The reason why you can summon him as Caster is because Gil's mad Goetia is pretending to be Solomon. Solomon's not a normal Heroic Spirit, though. He explained this shit to Da Vinci. All Heroic Spirits start as something else and then become that, something about a period they are human or human-like, even if they are chosen by a prophecy or demigods, but Solomon was one who was born whole as Heroic Spirit, since the beginning he was all knowledgeable and all powerful king.

The drawback is that he had no freedom and no desires. He was an empty vessel for God to do his will.
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Why is Fate so popular here?

It doesn't seem any more special than the other stuff

In fact I'd go as far as to say Prisma Illya is the only good thing that came from it
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>>152984100
A year has passed since Goetia did their human annihilation shit.

Solomon does know we are hard core fucked right? The human race experiencing 1 YEAR's worth of inactivity will actually fuck up humanity and its future.

Shipping, technology, military, politics, medicine, space, everything is fucked hard core because we skipped 1 year and everything else on earth continues without any problems, animals, ships still sailing, planes flying, and etc.

Humanities future is extinction because we could and cannot recover from this fuck up.
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>>152984100
>His final NP symbolizes this, as he turns away from god, or some shit
He returns to God and all miracles, this makes men the observer and final arbiter of their own fates. He was a transition to them. Kind of like Jesus only with more Nasulore and words.

I wouldn't compare Solomon with other HS because he's obviously mean to be a transcendental figure. He created the human order which chooses Heroic Spirits in the first place.
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>>152987386
well then you'd be wrong.

but that's mostly because you're new I guess. You weren't around for when things like a servant's identity mattered and people losing their shit over fate/zero.
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>>152987386
The original VN and 4chan were found around the same time, you could say we grew together.
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>>152987386
>here
Have you been to like other forums or social sites? Fate's pretty damn popular, even to the casual viewer who isn't deep into the lore stuff.
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>>152987435
>Solomon does know we are hard core fucked right? The human race experiencing 1 YEAR's worth of inactivity will actually fuck up humanity and its future.
It's going to be solved in ebin.

All humanity knows now is that magic is real. Magic is real and the Clock Tower and the Church don't know how to blame this on gasleak. this is his will too I think, he probably thought both the church and the association were fucking retarded.

Second, Chaldeas is full of colors and lights, this shows the future of humanity is SAFE.
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>>152987164
>Gaia's full support,
Gaia doesn't do shit, besides creating the sword. Read up how Excalibur works. It works on humanity hopes and dreams because humanity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shit >>>>>>>>>> Gaia. Gaia knows this and conceptually used what was stronger.
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>>152987435
>A year has passed since Goetia did their human annihilation shit.
>Solomon does know we are hard core fucked right? The human race experiencing 1 YEAR's worth of inactivity will actually fuck up humanity and its future.

Everyone absolutely dying vs Everyone being frozen in time for a year and suddenly popping back into existence

Wow, next time I wont even try to save you if I knew you were going to be such a bitch who complains I did it wrong, and says "You fucked us, you killed us, by saving us"

Everything just froze for a year, literally the only difference is that a year technically passed. The only people who realize the difference is Magus Society. Wow though, bitching about it so much these assholes weren't worth it. I could have fun in Chaldea with servants instead of making you alive again yet I did anyway for some reason.
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>>152987522
Galya summoned her 14,000 years ago as a grand servant to save the world from Sefar.
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>>152987435
Goetia please stop shitposting. I'm sorry your king thought your plan was fucking stupid and spanked you hard.
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>>152987584
We don't know what summoned her. Could have been the human order retroactively. Gaia is only supposed to be a cheerleader/godmother fairy figure at best in Fate.
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>>152987630
>Summoned all other TyPES to kill humanity
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>>152987584
What summons Heroic Spirits right now are neither Alaya or Gaia, but the Human Order. There are 3 classes of Counter Guardians. Beasts of Gaia (like Primate Murder/Fou/Kittysquirreldoggyrabbit); Counter Guardians/Beasts of Alaya, and Heroic Spirits which are chosen champions by the Human Order and have their own will and shit. Grand Servants are the crowned Heroic Spirits.
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>>152987553
>Only difference is that a year technically passed.
Say that to the entire fucking universe and the stars + temperatures from the sun.
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>>152987674
You mean in an ancient doujin written before Tsukihime that isn't canon? Why would the Planets want to commit suicide because a dying bitch asked them? If humans die, all will fucking die with them because now reality is decided by humanity and timelines they go bye bye for good leads to it become pruned eventually. Gaia is just Camelot's bitch in Fate.
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>>152987553
Humanity to be honest doesn't deserve life in the slightest. Nothing deserves life. Non-existence is the greatest gift to mankind and everything to exist.

For there is no sorrow or happiness.
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>>152987682
>What summons Heroic Spirits right now are neither Alaya or Gaia, but the Human Order.

Arthuria was summoned 14,000 years ago, we're not talking about right now. She references it in Extella and FGO Camelot. All heroic spirit summoning is an imitation of the original grand summoning which was directly stated to have been done by the world to protect the world.

Beasts of Gaia are not counter guardians you retard. He's a Beast, he's the antithesis of humanity and human order. A cancer upon humanity that must be removed. There are seven beasts, they aren't guardians. No servants weren't summoned by the human Order. Goetia was supposed to be in charge of the human order before he went bitch. Literally he was created to be the manager of it.

Stop trying to explain what Fou is when we're obviously talking about newer materials. Stop explaining what grand servants are in a post that mentioned grand servants, retard.
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>>152987674
Notes isn't canon. It was written before Nasu even established his company and universe. Like Tsuki no Dango. He could reuse the concepts, but the story itself never takes place. He could reworked it as "Gaia asked help to other planets to stop the Velber in case they returned" or "Gaia asked help to the other planets to give humanity a challenge they can defeat so they can progress and advance, so their solar system isn't wiped out of existence."
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>>152987730
>Isn't canon
>Nasu keeps explaining concepts from it in recent works as he slowly leads up to it.
>B-BUT IT DOESN"T COUNT
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>>152987813
Alaya and Human Order exist outside of time. Like the Throne, anon.

Beasts of Gaia are part of Gaia's counter force. This is explained in mats.

>He's a Beast, he's the antithesis of humanity and human order. A cancer upon humanity that must be removed
Beasts are just made for Humanity to beat though, in Fate. Their fully name is "evils that humanity are fated to destroy." It's the other way around, PM was created as fodder for humanity to progress and evolve. You're using Tsukihime canon which doesn't apply on Fate.

>There are seven beasts, they aren't guardians
Not all the Beasts are related to Gaia. Goetia was created by Solomon (or rather God using Solomon's hands).

>Stop explaining what grand servants are in a post that mentioned grand servants, retard.
Camelot straight out says: the one that dispatches, summons and chooses who becomes a Heroic Spirit is the Human Order.
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So what is stopping a person from creating a HGW with a bunch of puppet magis and ushering the end of humanity?

Or winning the HGW to become immortal and create more HGW in order to become an immortal god of humanity?
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>>152987841
Reusing concepts and changing them means exactly it's not canon.
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>>152987841
Nasu said the Scenario of Land of Steel never happens, what the fuck are you on?
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>>152987951
Counter force, typically

All grail wars that have the potential to fuck up humanity, either a Ruler is summoned, or counter force deals with it. Some force works to stop it at least. Why do you think the world is still standing after hundreds of grail wars?

Original families tried to do something like you're saying, "somethign" caused them to all fight each other for hundreds of years to the point of foolishness, until one man stood up and ended the ritual.

Also world-lines that diverge too much from other nearby worlds are pruned. Humanity has to survive at least another hundred years, otherwise the dimension pulls the plug on your world-line. The human order is what decides which world-lines survive and shit, and creates a time-lock around the decided ones.
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>>152987951
Not every magus can make a grail, you know? You could make one but is not guaranteed that it will be as strong as the original or that it will work as intended.
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>>152988076
Quantum time-locks

Rulers have the potential to command any servant in the war, if the war is rigged certain procedures take place.
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>>152987386
>what if we took a serious VN
>then, what if we took some random, unimportant side character...
>and then, what if we made her, and all her irrelevant friends lesbians
>prisma illya

a complete insult to the Fate franchise.
>>
>>152979051
Everything I read about any of the works outside of FSN(VN) and Zero looks and sounds stupid as shit. I honestly wish Type Moon would get on with the Tsukihime remake and finish that three part VN they have going. GO sounds like shit, and I've seen very few servant designs that don't make me throw up in my mouth.

All the RPG games sound like SMT light.
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>>152988076
But if somebody becomes immortal and becomes a literal god of humanity from the HGW and makes them continue to progress, even by force wouldn't the locks be placed on that world by default?
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>>152988271
Worlds that diverge too much from all the others, or advance too far beyond others too fast get pruned. Immortality always leads to stagnation, which leads to being pruned.

Think of it like a tree; branches that grow too little or too much equally get cut off, but for different reasons. Branch that grew too much gets pruned because it takes too many resources from the rest of the tree or is growing too wild. Branch that grew too little has no hope, isn't adding shit. All worlds get averaged together, and the ones that are decided to reach the best conclusions with the least amount of energy necessary are chosen.

Tree doesn't care if your personal dimension is kicking ass according to you, it still gets averaged together.
>>
>>152988371
That's kind of stupid. As at the end their will be one branch left and it will seize to be and the tree will be useless.

Nihilism sounds pretty good in Nasuverse.
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