>has noble phantasm that strikes the heart without fail >literally

>>152822476
What? Yeah we do.

It's himself though.

Lancer, kill yourself

>>152822513
>>152822555
He wasn't even using Gae Bolg's sure-kill ability during that moment.

Therefore it doesn't count

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Who was in the wrong here?

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>Shit Master
>Bad Luck

Lancer class is suffering

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>>152822476
But thats wrong

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>>152823079
What happens if hes not a Lancer anymore?

>>152822476
Lancer's a case of too strong to do anything because the protagonist has to do everything.

aka shit writing

>>152823179
He'd be a Caster then. So nothing would improve.

>>152822660
Gae Bolg is ez mode, only a pro like Lancer can kill themself through the heart

>>152823272
He can also be a berserker I think

>>152823680
Being a hero in life was a mistake.

>>152823680
When I first read FSN I was thrilled that Cuchulain was getting some representation in Japanese media but then appalled that there was a Berzerker class and he DIDN'T get it
Cuchulain was like, the original berzerker of mythology

>>152822476
>G Luck

>>152823272
>He'd be a Caster then. So nothing would improve.
>Solos the Fuyuki war in Grand Order

>>152823272
>>152825944
what exactly makes him a caster from the original legend?

also this whole twist in Grand Order about summoning the same people but in a different job class opens up all sorts of new possibilities...

though it still irks me how Archer was supposed to be the archer class yet he fought with nothing bu direct sword combat all day (what happens if you summon Gil as a berserker?)

Gae Bolg killed Berserker once, but by Gil's hands though

>>152826186
When was that?

>>152826083
>what happens if you summon Gil as a berserker?
He reflexively murders you with 500 NPs the instant you summon him and then immediately disappears
Alternatively: Berserker mindset makes him lose most of his inhibitions about castes and value of restraint, he sets Ea to anti-world, and antis the world

>>152826083
>what exactly makes him a caster from the original legend?
It's just an extension of the rune ability in FSN.

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>>152826083
>what happens if you summon Gil as a berserker?

>>152826083
Archer was summoned as archer most likely due to Shirou's amazing skills in archery. If I remember correctly, in the VN they said that the only time Shirou missed a target in the archery club is when he was intentionally trying to miss the target, and even then it was only a few inches off. Not sure if they ever show shutout using a bow and arrow but I'm still 70% through HA so maybe it'll show him in archery but probably not.

Archer used his bow minimally in the 3 routes but when he does use it, it's pretty destructive. Especially so in HA. It's probably just easier to fight with swords in many cases

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>>152826083
>Gil
>Bazakah!

Small tank is earth, the big maus is Gils bulge

>>152823272
>>152823680
He could also be a Saber or a Rider and maybe Archer or Assassin.

>>152822476
Gil fires Gay Bulge out of the gate at Berserker in UBW and it hits him right in the heart, if that counts?

>>152822476
Literally in the first few minutes of the game you see Cu stab Shirou through the heart at his school building, you fucking dingus.

>>152822476
Was there a Master in that Grail War that would have took him to victory? Clearly Kirei had no intention of bothering with him.

Shinji? Nope
Rin? Maybe, but she couldn't even lead Archer to victory in any of the main routes
Shiro? More of a nerf than an ally
Zouken? I don't see him and Cu getting along for a second
Kuzuki? Not skilled as a mage at all, Cu wouldn't need the physical back up
Ilya would probably be his best bet

>>152829991
>Rin? Maybe, but she couldn't even lead Archer to victory in any of the main routes

Archer never gave a fuck about winning. In two of the routes he willingly sacrifices himself when its clear that killing Shirou wont achieve anything and in the other he actively attempts to kill Shirou.

It was never about winnin the war for him.

And Ilya's tactics are shit

>get myself an OP servant
>will sit in the woods all fucking war doing nothing

>>152828025
In one of the character materials it's actually noted that Archer's combat style is actually reliant on sniping. Hell, even in the VN they note that his melee style is incredibly defense orientated.

>>152830186
Illya literally gave no shits about the war, and was mostly hoping to murder Shirou horribly. And then Shirou confuses her by not being a prat so she holds back on that plan as well.

>>152829991
Like Rider, I think he'd try to win for Sakura but would properly refuse Shinji and kill him the moment he wastes his '''command seals''.

>>152830562
Just imagine if Ilya had summoned EMIYA

>>152830617
Poor compatibility. Archer would want to take it slow and scout first while Illya would go open because muh pride

>>152830843
Their combined focus on wanting Shirou dead would be effective though

>>152830617
Then EMIYA gets conflicted because he also doesn't want Illya to die, and as shown in Fate and HF, he is actually able to put aside his murderboner if it's necessary for the survival of people he actually cares about.

>>152830996
>both have a common cause
>EMIYA also then has the added emotional baggage of saving Ilya and getting her through the war as the winner

This is sounding more and more like a very potent partnership. And dont forget that Ilya is a massive prana battery that would easily support UWB being summoned multiple times

>>152829647
That's not really the noble phantasm though. That's just the pointy stick.

>>152822476
How many times have we had this thread since the first Fate thread ever?

>>152831123
Gay Bulge's passive ability is a heart seeking one anyways. Gil has been shown to be at least proficient with the special effects and abilities of the weapons he stores in his gate

>>152831064
Except for the fact that, in this scenario, Illya attempts to attack Rin and Shirou after they meet with Kotomine, and is forced to engage at range because there's two Servants who can fight him here - and assuming RIn ended up with Berserker here, he's definitively fucked in melee. At which point, Saber can defend Shirou as Rin and her Berskerer move the fight to Archer and Illya.

Sapmming of UBW also isn't as great an advantage as one would think. Sure, it allows for a downgraded GoB style attack, but he has to be close enough to his opponent to grab them in the Reality Marble, and with the exception of Medea, everyone in the war can dominate him in a melee fight, which he's just forced himself into.

There's a reason he only pulls UBW out to intimidate Saber.

>>152831355
>, and with the exception of Medea
Reminder her eyes and his shit luck make him cybele bait, the fight wouldn't even enter melee.

>>152831355
I guess it really depends if he actually takes shit seriously.

If he just started spamming Hrunting as a Broken NP from the forest then he would be untouchable

>>152822967
Both of them were right, that was the point of the final confrontation, Shirou couldn't find any flaws in Kotomine's argument but they still had to fight to get what they each wanted.

>>152824164
Agreed. Then again if he were a Berserker he'd be able to see through the madness and essentially be his Heroic self and would curbstomp most everyone.

Then again the power levels in Fate have always been bullshit because Nasu doesn't follow his own rules.

>>152831509
That's Medusa, not Medea. Medea is Caster.

>>152831613
Hardly. Even in HA, Shirou's of the opinion that if Saber wasn't concerned about also defending him, it wouldn't be too difficult for her to cover the ground and engage Archer. In this scenario, Archer would have to focus his attention on the incoming Berserker/Rin pair, whilst also trying to keep Saber and Shirou pinned down.

>>152829991
The optimal masters are kinda like this, listed best/second best.
Caster - Shirou/Kuzuki
Rider - Rin/Illya
Assassin - Rin/Sakura
Berserker - Rin/Illya
Saber - Rin/Illya
Archer - Rin/Illya
Lancer - Rin/Shirou
Gilgamesh - Rin/Kotomine

Rin is a top tier master. Great magic and physical capabilities and has a fairly high affinity with most servants. She has more than enough mana to supply any servant in the war which puts..
Illya as second best for a lot of servants. She's a better magus than Rin but she doesn't actually fight, and she is very overbearing with a load of command spells, most servants would have a hard time dealing with her, but being a infinite mana battery would allow them to fight at full power, as long as she doesn't restrict them.

Caster is the exception in that she can largely supply herself with enough mana, all she needs is a master to exist. But her enhancements would best suit a close combat master. Kuzuki is a better fighter but Shirou would lead her to a happier ending. Wouldn't get along with Rin, who would again be the best master if she did.

>>152831942
>Ilya
>a better magus

No. Her circuits and prana capacity are better but that is all she is. She is a glorified battery.

In terms of Magecraft, Rin is far superior. Those gems she has alone are enough to make any modern mage quiver

>>152831942
>Caster - Shirou
No way. Shirou would try to stop her from doing anything evil so she would most likely turn him into magic wand like in that one bad end

>>152831942
>Gilgamesh - Rin
Though Nasu said they have good compatibility, they would most likely screw up at the worst moment.
Unless they're the MCs. In which case they would save themselves somehow.

>>152831942
>Caster - Shirou/Kuzuki
Why note Kotomine? He is a better mage and is also better at hand to hand combat

>>152832017
Rin beats her out in terms of firepower, but Illya is actually really capable when it comes to defense, and the command spells can be burned to enhance both offense and defense, burn enough of them and a modern magus can even straight up harm servants. Only really usable by Kotomine and Illya for obvious reasons.

>>152832087
The magic wand thing was when caster already had a master. Medea is weak to kindness and Shirou has no lack of that. Shirou also isn't completely inept as a magus, he was able to largely maintain Saber, a mana hungry servant, with only two mana transfers.

>>152832097
His outcome with Kotomine isn't exactly better.

>>152832201
Kotomine is missing from every servant but Gilgamesh because he's Kotomine. He has similar problems as Illya, but If he actually cared about the war he'd be a great master.

Caster would likely clash with him too much though.

>>152826083

In the original Legend he was taught Rune Magic. There different points in which hes shown using various Magic like elemental Magic, concealment magic, or healing magic. He is also notably bad at distinguishing Illusions magic even if someone is there tell him its not real.

>>152833062
Kotomine actually does care about the War though - it's why he tried to have all of the Masters report themselves to him, used Lancer to scout out the competition and was happy to let the War proceed along as usual and then swoop in unexpectedly at the last moment to secure the Grail as Gilgamesh demolishes the remaining Servant.

Kotomine and Caster would certainly clash, though, even if Kotomine would approve of her plan to just gather a shit ton of mana and hijack the Grail. He still get's Angra Mainyu, and Gilgamehs can quickly step in and kill Caster if she realizes what's ging on and tries to stop it at the last moment.

>>152833062
While Madea isn't completely evil she's still anti-hero, she wants to obtain grail and to reach her goal she will do things that would make shirou flip. Selfproclaimed hero of justice and her wouldn't make good team.
>Shirou also isn't completely inept as a magus, he was able to largely maintain Saber, a mana hungry servant, with only two mana transfers.
You mean how he sacrificed one of his magic circuits to jumpstart her "dragon reactor"? Because thats canon

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>>152833515
>dragon reactor

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>>152833590
That was weirdest sex Shirou ever had

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He's a shit tier Lancer.

>>152833986
Best Autist

>>152832017
Against a normal magi, Rin's jewels would be hard to stop but just look at her fight against Illya where that's just not enough. Nasu said that in Fuyuki even a magi on Kanyeth's level would have to separate Illya from the land to beat her and Rin is not that good yet.

>>152822476
>that strikes the heart without fail
>target gets to resist the effect with their luck stat
>Lancer himself, additionally has the lowest possible garbage rank luck at E rank
it's pottery

>>152833515
Sac a magic circuit when he can just trace more magic circuits, why does this matter?