What happens when Rin finds out what happened to Sakura?
She shrugs and moves on because she doesn't love Sakura.
>>152673579
She doesn't. Sakura would never mention it on her own, Zouken would have no reason to keep abusing her after the greater grail is destroyed, and Shinji stops being a huge piece of shit after UBW. She's a powerful magus and she's stable enough to be able to move on from her trauma eventually, so I imagine she lived a successful if not particularly exciting or fulfilling life.
im not even a sakurafag but it was disheartening learning about her situation
besides the whole worms thing i would friend for life
She anonymously sends an exterminator to fumigate the Matou house to deal with the worm infestation, and takes Sakura to a healer that won't masturbate to her suffering later. She also kidnaps Shinji and castrates him.
>>152674141
If Rin ever finds out what happened to Sakura, she'll break horribly, especially if it's too late to save her.
HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
>>152674230
Why do people like HF true while hating UBW Good? They're both Harem ends.
>>152674230
Maybe so for Shirou, Sakura, and Rider, but not Rin. That's UBW Good. She gets:
Overpowered Ginger Sword
Saber
Sex with both of the above as much as she wants
>>152674475
HF True isn't a harem. There's no way in hell Sakura would share Shirou. Shirou only gets a harem of Rin is the alpha, because she's cool with it. Sakura would maim anyone who tried to get the Shirou dick.
>>152674230
>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
Sakura x Shirou and Rider x Rin.
>>152674475
>Why do people like HF true
But no one does. If not for Illya's scene (which could easily be integrated into HF Normal with both Illya and Shirou sacrificing themselves), it would be worthless.
>>152674230
>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
They end in a pretty great position materially, but I think Shirou and Rin were both better off in other routes. Shirou has to deal with the guilt of having caused the deaths of a fuckload of people, breaking his promise to Kiritsugu, and giving up on his dream of being a superhero. Heaven's Feel Shirou is the successful businesswoman who gives up on her career to be a housewife, she doesn't regret it per se, but sometimes she'll be laying awake in bed late at night wondering about what would've happened had she followed her dreams instead of settling. As for Rin: >>152674515.
>>152674676
>But no one does.
Speak for yourself.
>>152674718
>Shirou has to deal with the guilt of having caused the deaths of a fuckload of people, breaking his promise to Kiritsugu, and giving up on his dream of being a superhero
He came to terms with that when he made up his mind to save Sakura over anything and anyone else.
>>152674676
HF Normal should have had both Shirou and Ilya sacrificing themselves and had Sakura actually do things to atone rather than just sitting at home growing flowers. HF True should never have existed.
>>152674767
Oh let me fix it
>No one with standards does
Unless you like unfitting pseudo-harem shit with no consequence that goes against the 20 hours of prior build up, it is an awful ending.
>>152674798
>He came to terms with that
In the sense of accepting it as a price to pay for her life. Like how you can accept cutting your leg off to escape from being chained in a basement, you can accept it, but it still hurts.
>>152674475
Because UBW have another happy ending called "UBW True end", while HF doesn't.
Many people would overlook all issues with something as long it's only happy ending for this. Even when it's illogical, stupid etc. Just like HF True.
>>152674475
>>152674934
It's the other way around. UBW Good is acceptable because it isn't the "True" ending, and it feels like the characters have earned, or at least deserve, it. HF True seems to have the message of: "The key to happiness is to be born with or happen into power and then use it to fuck over strangers for the sake of nepotism. Don't feel guilty about this because your friends and family will love you for it and you'll have all kinds of nice stuff." Which feels awful if you have empathy.
>>152675451
Except we talking about people reactions to endings, not about what is acceptable and where characters earned this.
HF True end have many fans, simply because it's only happy ending in this route. It's loved by people that want to have happy ending in everything that they watch/play.
>>152676815
I was just stating my opinion, which I believe to be the more common perspective. But I could just self-centered.
>>152674230
>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
So, are we going to see them actually do what Rin suggested and enter a money tournament? I can't imagine how any run of the mill magus at the clock tower could beat a team of Rin,Sakura,Rider and Shirou.
Who cares?
>>152677046
I do, I want to see Bazett,too.
HF was botched for a host of reasons, but mostly because it made Sakura an irredeemably bad character when she was supposed to be the heroine. You can't just spring a horrible backstory on someone for no other reason than to inspire sympathy for them. On top of that it just became a dumping ground for elements taken from other routes that got scrapped, eg. Ilya, fight scenes with Rider, etc. That just muddled the narrative even further.
>>152673976
But the greater grail isn't destroyed in UBW.
>>152678312
Rin and Waver destroy it in the Lord El-Melloi II Case Files.
From the wiki:
>In the Fate and Unlimited Blade Works routes of Fate/stay night, ten years after the Fifth Holy Grail War, the Mages Association planned on bring back the Greater Grail with great opposition from the Church. After the end of a great turmoil with the same magnitude as the Grail War, the Holy Grail in Fuyuki City was dismantled under the direction of Lord El-Melloi II and Rin Tohsaka and the Grail Wars of Fuyuki came to a complete conclusion.
>>152673579
Nothing of course, what else did you expect? She is not going to save her because she thinking that their separation was a right thing to do.
>>152678163
It's just what Nasu does. She's basically Kohaku 2: More Suffering Edition.
>>152678410
Huh. Although I don't really see why things would be any better for Sakura (if anything I would expect Zouken to just dispose of her if she is no longer of any use), the destruction of the greater grail is the main reason I thought HF was the only acceptable route. This kind of changes that.
>>152674230
>HF True, on the other hand, is the best ending for Shirou, Sakura, Rider and Rin.
Best ending for Shirou is UBW Good.
Best ending for Rin is UBW Good.
Best ending for Rider is the route she was going to have to herself that got cut to make way for Typical Tortured Puppy Heroine Nasu Wants You To Feel Sorry For
HF True is only a good ending for Sakura, which is great if you can bring yourself to like Sakura as she was in FSN.
>>152673579
Zouken goes senile six months after the 5th War. HA confirms that all the drama involving him could have just been avoided if the Grail just held its load in for another half year.
>>152678163
That's what happens when you merge two routes into one
>>152678410
>tfw you actually have a fic of the resumption of HGW by the Mages Association with a new grail managed by the Edelfelts
>>152678312
was the greater grail a good plot twist?
>>152678695
>(if anything I would expect Zouken to just dispose of her if she is no longer of any use)
Disposing of her doesn't actually help him any, cutting ties with her is just as good, and it doesn't create an unexplained disappearance for certain nosy people to investigate. Despite all the shit he did Zouken was originally a good person, he's just obsessed with living forever and will do anything to serve that goal, but when it comes to things that don't concern that goal he's basically just a nice old man. We saw with Shinji that he was perfectly willing to keep useless people alive.
>>152678821
More than two routes I think. There are bits of Ilya Route, bits of Sakura route, pretty much anything involving Shirou and Rider teaming up was probably of Rider's route... And that's without bringing up stuff in other Servants' stats and skills that obviously lampshade other scrapped material, like Caster's golden fleece.
>>152678910
More like he kept Shinji alive so people wouldn't ask questions. If he has to go out into the streets to melt some random person into a new body, logic dictates that there must be a reason he didn't do it with Shinji despite being close at hand.
>>152678915
>Fate/stay night - Fate and UBW (The title of the Rin route. During the plotting stage, it was also the subtitle of Fate/stay night itself.)
>Fate/other night - Sakura and Illya (eventually merged into HF)
>>152676912
Honestly, when we map out the endings.
In True, Sakura may have Shirou but she does a lot. No one here can really understand living with that guilt. Moreover, the idea that Sakura doesn't care is foolhardy because she actively pushes herself in her job as Supervisor and taking care of Shirou as best she can not just because she loves him, but she is grateful to him. And also says she works so hard to not lose herself in guilt.
Its about understanding the situation rather than going off of emotion. After all, despite the fact that Ilya died to stop the ritual, she herself kept a lot of important info that could have prevented things from going tits up.
Furthermore expecting Sakura to be normal after everything happened is unrealistic, it's not just that Shirou died, but she feels the weight of that but doesn't know how she should work through it, that was plainly said in the ending. Rin telling her flatly Shirou isn't coming back doesn't help the situation and is for the most part unhelpful to ask her to live with her, because let's be honest, the Tohsakas have all but erased her as part of their family (you see Sakura's reaction to finding out her old things and all pictures of her were thrown out when she cleans Rin's house in Hollow). People fail to realize exactly what the situation is. Expecting a traumatized, 15 year old girl to suddenly become Kenshin for something that is largely not her fault is pretty out there. She pretty much had to go for self therapy, and actually made good strides considering.
Whereas you have HF True, where the story ends in hope for the future despite Shirou and Sakura bring magical freaks with unknown side effects. It ain't just them being happy, they are working toward maintaining that happiness. It'd be wrong to not consider the fact that they worked to get to that point. Only the most die hard Sakura haters seem to think that I find.
I know what's right and what's wrong. What I've protected until now, and what I want to protect right now. I know which choice is correct, and which is wrong. With that in mind, I
http://www.strawpoll.me/11582162
>>152678887
I never even considered it to be a twist until you just said that. An explanation was required for the mechanism by which the grail wars were actually set up, and they were clearly building toward the explanation, so it wasn't exactly a shocker. Pretty much every part of it had been really heavily hinted at.
>>152679023
There were also Caster, Rider and Shinji routes planned.
>>152679150
How would any of those have even worked?
>>152679150
>>152679212
After all, around this point, the plot itself was starting to stray. Not only Rider, but even Caster was a potential heroine candidate. It was terrifyingly chaotic.
>>152679150
>Shinji route
How the fuck would that even work? Shirou somehow manages to redeem Shinji despite him being a literal rapist and then they have buttsex?
>>152678910
There are lots of reasons he would dispose of her. Paranoia, convenience, she is still good material if he doesn't give up on the grail. The list goes on.
It might give some people peace of mind to think Zouken would just become retarded and sulk off in a corner, but if his dream dies, all he has is his obsession to live, and Sakura is just a fresh body that will rot slower than normal humans.
Post UBW, Nasu just doesn't say what goes on concerning certain characters for brevity, that's it.
>>152679050
>It ain't just them being happy, they are working toward maintaining that happiness. It'd be wrong to not consider the fact that they worked to get to that point.
I won't deny that they worked hard, but they worked hard for themselves at the expense of others. Bank robbers, drug tycoons, and tinpot dictators also work hard, but that doesn't make them deserving of what they get from that work. I don't think Sakura can really be faulted for what Zouken made her into (though it is implied that everything the shadow did came from her repressed desires, but YMMV), but seeing Shirou do all that he did and get away with it is simply stomach turning.
>>152673623
This. She even tries to kill her in Heaven's Feel.
>"FATE" was, originally, planned to have 4 heroines with 4 routes.
>The first part would be temporarily playing either Saber or Rin, the two would meet at the middle part, and the last part would proceed into 4 routes...... or like so, it was made into a very confusing plot.
>The first of the scrapped routes was, the well-known Ilya route. Other than that, there were the Rider route where Rin & Saber fight as a team, and the Caster route which would make Caster as a loli and the partner. The Caster route has completely extinguished, but the plot regarding a cooperation with Rider is continued in a portion of the actual game, the Heaven's Feel route.
>If there was the Ilya route, there would have been a choice in the 9th day of Sakura route which would have chosen to be not the hero of justice, nor Sakura's hero, but Ilya's hero. The possibility has disappeared in the actual game.
Yeah, at some moment of the production stage, even Fate and UBW didn't existed yet. Fate/stay night suffered a lot of conception changes... In this article in the Fate/side material, they mention some portion of the game involving Saber & Rin, and then a last part of "short routes" (Sakura, Ilya, Rider, Caster). At the end, Sakura route absorbed Rider route and Ilya route, and Caster route was totally scrapped.
>>152679429
However, as you know, for a temperamental genius like Shinji even a friend of many years is not safe from suddenly becoming his enemy for incomprehensible reasons.
Basically, he's the kind of person that's reliable when he's on your side but ends up being really troublesome if he turns on you.
Originally there was going to be an option to accept his invitation to join forces in the Saber route, but tragically we ran out of time and were forced to cut it.
Ah, if we'd included that route (let's call it the “Shinji route”), players would have gotten to see a bit of Shinji's good side, but there was just no way. Please, find it in your hearts to forgive us!
>>152675451
>"The key to happiness is to be born with or happen into power and then use it to fuck over strangers for the sake of nepotism. Don't feel guilty about this because your friends and family will love you for it and you'll have all kinds of nice stuff."
More like: "What really matters is those who are close to you. If you want to be a real hero, don't betray them for the sake of convenience, but stick with them to the very end even if the world turns against you." If you have empathy, you'll realize anything but a complete happy end for Sakura feels awful.
>>152679212
The way I see each route is using a new facet of Shirou's powers to better understand the complexities of Shirou and his raison d'etre. In short, each route is a lesson on how Shirou avoids becoming like Archer.
>Fate
he trains his ability to trace objects he sees and understands, and gains a moral compass onto which to fix himself to (the promise of Avalon).
>UBW
he trains UBW and comes to terms with his goal being impossible but virtuous and worth pursuing anyway, as well as gaining Rin to keep him in line.
>HF
he trains his ability to trace not just objects but concepts and techniques tied to the object, and ultimately rejects his raison d'etre to save himself and Sakura at all costs.
>Rider
I'm not sure how it'd tie in with Shirou's powers, but a crux of this route I imagine would be the trichotomy explored in F/HA; man, monster, hero. Man defeats hero, another cautionary tale against Shirou becoming Archer, and possibly proving to Medusa that these qualities are not fixed; instead of letting fate dictate that she's a monster she may fight as a woman, even a hero if she chooses.
>Caster
Along the route he either comes to of his own volition or is shown by Caster how to trace personal truths and concepts with enough firmness as actual qualities of an object; while Caster herself has no use for the Argon Coin, popular culture dictates that Jason's Golden Fleece is a divine armor in the same league as Avalon. It'd also delve more into her backstory, and show to Shirou that heroes aren't faultless and that the Archer approach of killing anything in the path of justice will spill blood that's more innocent than first believed.
>>152679538
I'm sorry, but that is a very subjective moral. Family and friends are important, but yeah, there are bigger things out there than them, especially in a world where magic and superpowers exist.
>>152679538
I wouldn't put it that strongly. But I didn't agree with that other anon either.
Being born into power in that world for Sakura made her life hell, so it's dubious to say it gained her anything. It's more like, now she has a chance to live a life of her own, and maybe feel some pride and accomplishment in being born a magus. And for Shirou, just like post UBW, it's a chance for him to love himself in the truest sense.
>>152679538
But that's just selfishness with added steps. It's choosing the wrong answer to the trolley problem because the people YOU know and love are more important than the people that others know and love. Sakura has more of a right to live than all the people who the shadow killed simply because Shirou is in love with her.
HF Shirou reminds me of that video I saw of a penguin being eaten alive while surrounded by other penguins. The birds that were eating the penguin weren't that big, the other penguins could have easily fought them off had they worked together, but only its mate tried to help it. That's what happens when people think the way Shirou does, they care only about those close to them and let everyone else die for their sakes. The only reason human civilization was able to form at all was by moving past that kind of thinking.
>>152679538
>If you have empathy
Frankly, no we don't. Not through any fault of our own, but because Nasu didn't sufficiently sell Sakura to the reader as someone worth empathy.
>>152678163
>it made Sakura an irredeemably bad character
Actually, she's easily among the most complex and well-written characters in the VN, and considering her circumstances, she's pretty much an angel for managing to remain as kind and selfless as she is.
>>152679929
That is kind of a problem with her.
Shirou technically should care about her more than any of the heroines, but we as readers don't, because we don't spend two routes hanging out with her, like we did with Rin and Saber.
>>152679929
>Not through any fault of our own
>wow she got raped what a slut xD
Keep telling yourself that.
>>152679972
Rin is far more complex.
>>152680038
No one in this thread said that. The only match for the word slut is your post.
>>152679972
>>152679972
She could've been if she wasn't outed as the big bad in the first act of HF.
>>152680059
Rin is about as generic as it gets. The only semblance of character depth she has other than being a generic tsundere is her relation to Sakura, and even that is pretty much just her being a tsundere for her own sister.
>>152680185
Rin is at her best in UBW. Interesting, complex, unforgettable dialogue, amazing key in Shirou's story.
If an opinion seems so outrageous that it identical to what bait would look like then just treat it as such and don't go on some 50+ post argument that we've already had hundred of times.
>>152680164
>outed as the big bad in the first act of HF.
[citation needed]
The route throws a lot of misdirections at you, but the astute reader realizes that Sakura is good at heart.
>>152680185
Whereas Sakura is just a dime a dozen doormat character you see in hundred of other IPs, with the only difference being a trademark Nasu tragic backstory shoehorned in late to inspire sympathy. I'd say that's even more generic than a tsundere, who at least by definition has demonstrable character layers.
>>152680291
>doormat
Opinion discarded.
>>152680274
When "The Shadow" speaks, it's in Sakura's voice.
>Sakura's good at heart
So was Ol' Yeller.
>>152680185
Rin is the most understandable, and relatable "tsundere" you can come across. Her actions generally aren't born from being too shy to admit she loves Shirou, so much as she gets frustrated by him literally jumping into danger.
Outside of that, she's a character who's in over her head. She presents herself as being calm, cool, and ready to fight in the war, but when push comes to shove, she's still just a teenager who freaks out when they see a mortally wounded person.
That's one of the first inklings she has about Shirou being off, since he doesn't flinch during the stuff going down at the school.
>>152680369
The shadow is linked to Sakura, but it isn't Sakura herself. That's a good example of the red herrings meant to make one doubt Sakura during the route. Also, you do realize F/SN wasn't voiced originally?
>Rin and Sakura
>Not the worst characters in FSN
>>152680431
That's still not exactly deep, especially not compared to HF having interludes upon interludes devoted to showing Sakura struggling to stay sane while all the good and bad parts of her mind are shown.
>>152680492
Please don't anyone respond to this.
>>152679150
>caster route
>>152680587
You can have those interludes, but what comes of it?
Rin is an active character. We see her thoughts in the prologue, and have her in every part of the narrative.
I don't hate Sakura, but the fact is, she's not really there until the third route, and she spends a good chunk of it literally lying in bed.
Shiki did that in Hisui's route of Tsukihime, too, which made for an interesting setting, but the man had four other routes of doing things too.
>>152680679
And yeah, I know Sakura becomes active at the end of HF, but does that make up for everything else?
How long are the last two days of HF? 50k words? I'm shooting that and being generous.
For an 800k word novel, that's not too great.
>>152680587
Except it was very poorly done.
>hey look, it's all the characters you loved in the first two arcs!
>and here's that doormat who did and said nothing up until now, she's going to eat them all!
>now feel sorry for the doormat! EMPATHISE, DAMNIT!
>>152680679
>>152680750
Rin also has more to her character than what I mentioned.
I mean Shirou provides a contrast for her in a lot of ways. She's trained to try and be this perfect mage, like her father wanted her to be, but she sees in Shirou that he's a genuinely good person, even if he isn't front of the line to get into the Clocktower.
She can live her life, rather than the one expected of her as a member of the Tohsaka family.
>>152680755
>she's going to eat them all!
So yeah, you didn't even read the route and are just baiting. Nice to know.
I think Sakura was a fairly deep character, she had layers to her, and I appreciate her. But she just wasn't compelling to read about, she felt boring. Outside of her tragic backstory and failure to find the will to kill herself but success at staying otherwise moral as long as she did, there wasn't a lot to her. She had depth, but not... breadth, I guess? Whenever she wasn't struggling with her inner demons she was just kind of there. She comes off as bland and submissive, which is the point, it's what makes her transition to dark Sakura shocking, but it's still a point against her appeal as a character. Almost every scene with her in it is dry and slow, even when the better parts of her character were being shown off I still just wanted to move on to the more interesting parts of the story. She's like a black and white painting, it might be really well composed, but I'd still rather hang up a color painting of similar if lesser quality in my living room.
>>152680916
What didn't I get?
>>152681173
There's actually a lot of layers to her character, but these facets were mostly explored during the SoL scenes, which I unironically enjoyed.
>>152681380
The Shadow isn't Sakura. It's Angra Mainyu, which is gradually fusing with her body and corrupting her mind over the course of the route because she's the grail.
Who was in the right and who was in the wrong?
>>152681380
For one, she didn't eat any named characters other than True Assassin and Gil, one of whom made his first appearance in the route and the other was less than loveable in the previous two routes. That's a far-cry from "all of them" and it's arguable whether she's actually responsible for eating Gil or not.
>>152681548
One of them sold out his daughter to an old man without doing a background check. The other one wants to save said little girl. Who the fuck do you think was in the wrong?
>>152681548
Both were wrong.
Man, in a roundabout way, Rin scored when she didn't have to be raised by her dad.
>>152681563
>>152681495
Regardless, Rin is still the better written and true heroine of the story.
>>152681654
>The other one wants to save said little girl.
Well, you know, intents and actions are teensy bit different, considering he ended up strangling that little girl's mother.
>>152681495
>The Shadow isn't Old Yeller. It's Rabies, which is gradually fusing with his body and corrupting his mind over the course of the route because he's a rabid dog.
Also, literally none of this is given to the reader before we have to decide whether to save her or not. What we are given is all our favourites being killed off by this big shadow we know is Sakura, who again we are given no real reason to feel sorry for.
>>152681563
>likely Caster
>Lancer
>Saber
>Archer
>very likely at least half of the muggles from school you never see again
>>152681548
Tokiomi was right because Kariya was a salty and selfish fuck who got everything that was coming to him.
>>152681654
t.cuck
>>152681668
>>152681668
I'd say in terms of writing Sakura is just as well-written as she is. And no matter what you'd like to think the true heroine isIllya.
>>152681548
There is no right and wrong here. One was a mage with a mage's mindset. The other was a mage with a human's mindset.
>>152681668
She's not even the true heroine of her own route.
>>152681766
Archer is pretty firmly the antagonist.
Guy is actually kind of a fucking asshole in UBW.
>>152681766
She's never the heroine, she's more of a second protagonist considering she has a major role and focus in every route.
>>152679919
Wait. Do you really think Shirou doesn't care about others? Because you missed the entire reason why he even fought. He wanted to give Sakura a future and refused to sacrifice her. It's literally the same Shirou we have seen since forever.
He thought about, he thought about killing Rin if she recklessly. Shirou's deal is that he wasn't gonna be swayed by the BS of saying that if Sakura dies everything is fixed. Which hindsight tells us, is true. Sakura never needed to die to stop AM, despite being it's current host. Shirou was lost being an amateur in this situation and having little to no reliable info. I loved when he punched Kirei in the face for fucking with him all that time.
Ilya had trouble accepting the ritual was a failure until things went to hell in a handbasket. She was willing to use Shirou's soul as blackmail against Sakura to fulfill the ritual, amongst other terrible things before she and Shirou bonded, and she abandoned her mission from the Einzberns.
It's not a trolley problem question at all, it's a matter of a clusterfuck happening and a bunch of kids being trolled with misinformation by a edgy priest and a mummy who was cucked by a Japanese man long ago, but can't let go of his boner for a German hottie.
>>152681654
>without doing a background check
>fk fk fuck shit cunt
Nasu: What’s important for Tokiomi is not the position of parent, but the magical progression in his family. So he’s aware of having literally thrown away his daughter. You can imagine that Tokiomi says to himself that, through his dear daughter, he will come into have greater magical powers.
Tokiomi knew what Sakura would undergo but, for him, this would allow her to become a true mage. As long as it led to augmenting the magical potential of his family, he wouldn’t have any problem with the treatment of Sakura among the MATŌ. However, if he had known Sakura’s fate, of being only a womb for Zōken, he would have refused. He also imagined that if things went too far, Sakura would be able to stop Zōken herself. Unconsciously, even if he would never have said it, the fight between Sakura and Rin at the end of Heaven’s Feel was for him the best thing which could have happened for the TŌSAKA.
Aoi, on the other hand, knew nothing.
>>152681805
Saber and Rin were a damsels in distress for a while, that counts, right?
>>152673579
Laugh and forget that worm slut
>>152681840
>Shirou's deal is that he wasn't gonna be swayed by the BS of saying that if Sakura dies everything is fixed. Which hindsight tells us, is true.
No? The superhero ending is better for everyone that isn't a main character. Sakura wipes out entire blocks of people after Shirou spares her. Killing her doesn't fix everything, but it does save lives.
>>152681698
Pretty sure rabies doesn't manifest itself into the world through astral projection while the dog itself is asleep.
>literally none of this is given to the reader before we have to decide whether to save her or not
The shadow doesn't kill a single human before you make the decision.
>this big shadow we know is Sakura
No you don't, because it isn't actually her. You're just making a misassumption based on a red herring.
>given no real reason to feel sorry for.
11 years of torture kind of is a pretty good reason. Sounds like you just lack basic human empathy.
>>152681698
>Caster
Reanimated by Zouken and then killed by Saber again.
>Lancer
True Assassin dealt the fatal blow, but I'll give you this since the shadow did end up consuming his corpse
>Archer
Read the VN secondary.
The students in the school are all mooks outside of Issei, Ayako, and Shinji, so your point doesn't apply to any of them even if they did die.
This is all working under the assumption that the Shadow and Sakura are the one and the same, which is another can of worm.
>>152681982
>those biased options
Totally not a butthurt MoSfag who made that poll.
>>152682108
>Posting insignificant sow character who has zero relevance on anything.
>>152681849
No, did he really think that a four year old was going to beat an experienced magus? Because that would be retardation of too high a measure.
He was worried about people taking advantage of her powers, but took a guy who is shady as fuck, something he is well aware of, and said "I guess he checks out".
And we are supposed to believe Aoi was just ignorant of all this, and never thought to question Tokiomi about Sakura for any of this?
I can't stop laughing. Oh Sakura, why is your family's heads so far up their own asses with tradition?
That is like letting a random ice cream man run off with your toddler daughter on the idea that ice cream men are trustworthy.
>>152681982
>Sakura wipes out entire blocks of people after Shirou spares her
If you're talking about the "Bring down my arm" choice then that's completely false. The killings actually stopped after that night since Sakura resolved to never fall asleep again, preventing the Shadow from manifesting.
>>152681982
>better for everyone that isn't a main character
Yeah, such as those delinquents who stated that they'd gladly rape mentally disabled people. Why did they have to die?
>>152682108
What's biased about it? It's the same narration provided from the game. You would know if you actually played it but you didn't.
>>152682153
No, I was talking about when he stops her from getting killed at the church. At some point after that there's a scene where the shadow wipes out everyone in the houses along a street.
>>152682258
>1. ...Persist on being a superhero.
>2. I want to protect Sakura.
The choice doesn't have your autistic three-sentence justification.
>>152682302
Sorry, misread that part.
>>152682339
Read the VN, secondary.
>Mind of Steel
The man who turned away from the Einzberns for something he believed was right.
I've chosen the same path.
Ilya has been betrayed twice now.
Not choosing Sakura also means not choosing Ilya.
"That's right. Kiritsugu and I are the same. If you want to curse someone, you can curse me."
My mind has turned into hard steel.
Getting scorned or cursed is not heavy for me at all.
>Run into the rain
Where the responsibility lies, existence of good and evil.
Losing Sakura will weigh more heavily on me than either of those things.
…I don't even need to think about it.
I just want to protect Sakura, that's all.
>>152681991
>Pretty sure rabies doesn't manifest itself into the world through astral projection while the dog itself is asleep.
What it is is something tragic and not the dog's fault at all, but still causes it to attack innocent people and requires it to be put down, no matter how attached you are to it. Sound familiar?
>The shadow doesn't kill a single human before you make the decision.
It does kill or absorb named characters you are conditioned by other routes to give a shit about. That's more than you can say for Sakura at this point.
>You're just making a misassumption based on a red herring.
Given that we're given absolutely no indication of the falseness of this red herring BEFORE we're asked to act on it, we can only take it as truth.
>Sounds like you just lack basic human empathy.
Yes, 11 years of torture is fucked up. But this revelation is only as strong as the character it's applied to; before we find this out we're given no reason to give a shit about Sakura, aside from one throwaway line earlier on about her having nice tits. Fucked up shit is still fucked up, but its dramatic effect is dampened by happening to what's practically a stranger.
>>152682223
>a tornado wiped out a coastal city
>yeah well whatever, some of those people were rapists so who cares?
>>152682108
>people aren't voting for sakura!
>it's the polls fault! bias!!!!!!!!
>>152682412
>somebody got stuck in the eye of the tornado!
>let's blame them for the tornado and kill them!
>>152682302
It was the scene Chess where you find out a neighborhood goes missing, but there was a caveat to that. Zouken notes later in that scene that the Shadow is being held back by Sakura's psyche.
It's basically like Peter Parker and the Symbiote for the most part.
>>152682400
That's not the choice itself, retard. Also, nice job picking out three sentences for MoS while only using one for the other choice.
>>152682639
>getting this mad because nobody is voting for sakura
Arguing that Sakura did absolutely nothing wrong just makes her character way less interesting, and far blander.
What is left without that idea of potential moral ambiguity? A girl who isn't there for the vast majority of the game, and then, when she does take center stage, becomes a magnet for a bunch of ludicrously bad things that we're supposed to feel sorry about her for going through?
I'm sorry, but like, why? Is it tragedy porn? I know some people get off to that. They get turned on at the idea of a character's suffering, and wanting to "protect" them.
>>152681982
The thing is, Rin is a fully fleshed out character. She's prominent in every route, and in fact, you see things from her perspective at the very start. She's the protagonist of the prologue.
Sakura though has issues. She's supposed to be the one who's known Shirou the most, and they have the deepest bond, but you and I, the reader, don't get to experience that.
In fact, it's kind of the opposite for us. We spend 500k words with Saber and Rin. We see multiple facets of their lives and personalities, and watch them grow and change. Shirou might have known them for a less amount of time, but we're already clearly invested.
With Sakura, she's essentially absent in the first two routes of the game. She gets minor appearances, but you don't really know her, or find a reason to care beyond a superficial level.
HF though packs everything in, but it's just whammy after whammy of weird shit.
I see a bit of her being sweet, and then we find out she's literally been fucking worms for a decade, and might be involved with a series of murders.
Now that's kind of interesting, but the story really wants me to care about her, and take her side. HF is all about saving Sakura, but there are so many twisted things surrounding her, that she becomes polarizing, and I don't think in a way that was intended.
Imagine if Saber or Rin were in her place. You, the reader, would be instantly more invested in their plights, because you've already spent countless hours with them.
With Sakura, I have no attachment, and that sullies a story all about giving up everything for the one you love.
I didn't love her.
>>152682412
>>152682520
>Life Is Strange
That is exactly how Heavens Feel SHOULD have been done. Give us reason to care about Chloe before revealing her fucked up shit. Make us invest in the character, not her tragic backstory. Don't just have her walking around in the background then dumping her AND her suffering all on us in a hot mess and expect sympathy. Show why we should give a shit about her instead of just telling us to.
>>152674718
>breaking his promise to Kiritsugu
I like how people mention Kerry, but don't mention the fact he knows about the greater grail under Mount Enzo and dies without telling anyone about the horrors underneath their own feet.
I mean, just a small sticky note for Shirou to pull a switch in case of Grail War or something instead of putting the safety of the city on a shitty fifty year auto timer on probably bargain basement bombs.
I mean fuck, if Sakura hadn't cleaned up the city and sealed the leyline, those poor monks would have rebuilt their temple grounds only to have gotten them blown up 50 years later.
>>152681563
>Implying Gil isn't best husbando
Ho come on. I know he can be a dick, but he his great character.
>>152682790
The build up and groundwork in particular is important with HF's situation, because her life is just so fucked up. You need to establish that there's lots of good about her to make the reader appreciate the sacrifices Shirou makes for her.
With Saber and Rin, the situation would have had ten times more impact, due to the fact that you had seen their triumphs, failures, vulnerabilities, and different aspects of their personality. You want to see them succeed.
It's not as much with Sakura's case though. She's just this girl you see, and then you find out horrible, horrible things surround her life.
>>152682860
>if Sakura hadn't cleaned up the city and sealed the leyline
But that was Waver and Rin.
>>152682889
Exactly. You are more emotionally invested in fucking Caster than Sakura.
>>152682860
I noticed they forgot about those bombs and the various others such as in the church, Tokiomi's house, and so on in the anime
>>152682870
He is great now after all the new entries, but would you really say he was a great character after just going through Fate and UBW?
>>152682405
>Sound familiar?
Not really, considering Sakura could be saved perfectly fine in the end. Also, if anything, Dark Sakura is closer to the symptoms of rabies, and she doesn't kill anyone other than Zouken, True Assassin and Kotomine.
>It does kill or absorb named characters you are conditioned by other routes to give a shit about.
Servants are literally already dead, so them getting killed is a matter of course. The entire point of Fate is how servants aren't meant to stay in the modern era.
>we're given absolutely no indication of the falseness of this red herring
The fact that Sakura is a good person and the heroine, perhaps?
>we find this out we're given no reason to give a shit about Sakura
Sounds like you just CTRLd through scenes with her because there wasn't enough Servant action.
>>152682896
Only in timelines where the Great Grail isn't destroyed or shut off, i.e. Fate and UBW.
>>152682489
>>152682661
Someone's upset HF True is the canon ending and MoS is an insignificant bad end only edgy idiots would pick.
>>152683007
>she doesn't kill anyone other than Zouken, True Assassin and Kotomine.
Shinji?
>>152683101
Canon ending is all three because of Rin and Ilya's meddling with the Zelretch formula. Hence, F/HA.
>>152683000
Well in Fate he was litteraly just fucking horny, and that's all. I admit it. But in UBW he was having some developement as a character that want to do something horrible but with a "noble" motive in mind. He was trully thinking that was the best thing he could do for humanity ( to wipe 90% of the population and keep only the more worthy). But I agree, the time period/condition of humanity was affecting his
reasoning; bathing in the Grail and living 10 years in a world he hate probably don't help.
>>152682520
And now we're back at the trolley problem. Killing the person in the tornado/killing Sakura/pulling the lever could be considered evil, but it's quantifiably less evil than letting the tornado/shadow/trolley kill a bunch of people.
>>152683120
She's not Dark Sakura yet at that point, since his death is the catalyst for her becoming that. It's either her killing him in self-defense or the shadow taking its chance to attack, and that very ambiguity is what drives her insane.
>>152679118
http://www.strawpoll.me/12197977
>>152683244
Dark Sakura and Sakura are the same though, so Shinji's blood should still be on her hands. Just to be clear I'm not talking about the Shadow here.
>>152683223
The one who's evil in the first place is the one who set the trolley loose (i.e. Zouken for putting the grail shards in her, as well as Angra Mainyu), not the one who's forced to make a choice about who to save.
>>152683000
>>152683158
But I admit it, I'm probably biaised by the whole character as we see him now. I do the HF road pretty late, so yeah. Gil is actually one of the character the new entries didn't fuck up (yet).
>>152682889
>It's not as much with Sakura's case though. She's just this girl you see, and then you find out horrible, horrible things surround her life.
You have 8 entire days to get to know her before the major reveal in day 9. That's half the route. The issue is that some people don't pay attention to the daily life scenes because all they want is action.
>>152683295
Evil through inaction is the same as evil through action. Imagine a version of the trolley problem where the rail line with one person instead has no people on it, I'd hope everyone would agree that anyone who would not pull the lever in that situation is evil.
>>152683439
Yes, because the choice there is obvious. The thing is, though, when you pit people you don't know against those you do know, it's an entirely different issue. If you want to see what's wrong with prioritizing strangers over those you know and love, just look at Europe right now.
>>152683526
>If you want to see what's wrong with prioritizing strangers over those you know and love, just look at Europe right now.
You're comparing global conflicts involving entire populations of people, while Sakura's situation literally came to saving one person.
There are plenty of reasonable arguments to be made about willingly sacrificing a loved one for the lives of dozens, or hundreds, or thousands.
You might disagree with them, but that doesn't mean they're wrong.
>>152683640
And shit, even Shirou knew his best bet was to try and get to the root of the problem.
Why do you think he spent years of his life fighting in the middle east, rather than dicking around and philosophizing about European immigration?
>>152679522
>Caster route which would make Caster as a loli and the partner.
>scrapped
>>152683526
The choice between one life lost and 200 should not be any less obvious than the choice between zero lives and half a dozen.
You might argue that the deterioration to the ethical concept of loyalty caused by killing Sakura is worse than the deaths caused by letting her live, but when you consider the sheer scale of destruction her life was causing it's a pretty god damn hard sell.
>>152683745
And the root of the problem was the greater grail itself, hence why sacrificing Sakura is a stupid choice.
>>152683783
some of the lost scenes were re-implemented in the UBW series such was Illya's extended flashback and Archer chatting with Kuzuki. HF manga adds some new story too so maybe it was something they added later.
zouken does go senile tho
>get the extella special edition with the art book
>Archer (EMIYA)
>natural enemies: Artoria
>Gawain
>likes: King Arthur
>dislikes: getting involved with older women
>natural enemies: Artoria
Does everyone that falls in love with Artoria end up becoming her enemy?
>>152673579
>What Ufotable wanted for the conclusion of the Unlimited Blade Works anime was an anime original episode.
>Ufotable wanted to make a reflection on what the Holy Grail War from episodes 0 to 24 meant to Shirou, and thought that drawing a picture of what lay ahead of that strife would really complete the work.
>So, Ufotable submitted the idea for this episode starting from the events in London.
>Nasu Kinoko, the original author, took this scenario from Ufotable and rewrote it up. The result is this text. (本稿)
>>152685056
Rin fell in love with her, and she isn't ever listed as an enemy.
>>152685203
>and she isn't ever listed as an enemy
Everybody loves Rin?
Fuck all this Sakura faggotry, let's talk about Caster and Rider routes
>>152679826
would play both
>>152678695
>>152673976
Zoken is dead after the events of F/SN, he is already dying by the events of F/SN and he does it at retarded speeds.
Read the VN and pay attention, it's made very clear by Hassan and everyone else that while Zoken thinks he has a lot to live it's just because he's utterly insane, in reality he doesn't have time.
Not to mention Shinji kills him in UBW
>>152685419
Or, you know, play HA, where he's literally gone senile.
That's just six months after the VN.
>>152681840
When does he punch Kirei ?
>>152683000
>He is great now
topkek.
He's even worse now, reeks of mary sue
>>152685419
>Shinji kills him in UBW
left up in the air as it was never said.
>True Ends in both Tsukihime and FSN revolve around the idea of sacrifice, meaning you cannot have everything you want BESIDES HF.
Why?
>>152685419
>>152685454
Yeah only dumb wormslutfags think he is going to keep making Sakura's life into a living hell.
>>152674230
>she'll break horribly, especially if it's too late to save her.
As in feel like shit for years but eventually forget about it. Remember Rin and Sakura may be sisters but they barely have a good relationship together. It would be autistic for anyone to literally break from the death of someone you barely had a connection with.
>>152685740
Normal End was written first.
>>152685740
Because true end is how it would go and good end is how wishful thinking makes it go. And it's not like HF is that different. Illya was just the one who can't make it to the end.
>>152682693
There is a lot of stuff you didn't read or see if you can't find a handful of examples for why Shirou believes Sakura is part of his family.
Did you know she pays half for groceries? That's all in there.
Did you know she personally knows the Fujimura gang and learned from their maids? No? It's in there.
Did you know Shirou is grateful to her for making his house that extra bit less lonely without Kerry? No? That is in there and even before HF where it's mentioned again.
I could give you a myriad of examples for why Shirou (and Taiga) care for her, laid out plainly in the game. She doesn't need to be an action heroine for one to grasp that. Now, whether or not you feel it is subjective. But hey, people strangely want an Ayako route despite her time on screen with Shirou amounting to ten minutes, so who knows how some minds work.
>>152685955
>good end is how wishful thinking makes it go.
Nah its permissible through the plot. The only problem with it is that the edgy Fate/Zero kids joined the franchise and they hate anything with harems because they are new to fucking anime and can't cope with it as they are the closest to normalfags.
>>152686088
He literally explained to you why him and most people don't get to like her enough to give a fuck. Why would anyone who doesn't give a fuck about the character notice or care for the shit you wrote?
>>152686088
I'm gonna ask you a very important question.
When do you see those things?
Because just mentioning that she's important to Shirou doesn't really matter. We know that Shirou's known her for longer than any of the other heroines, but that doesn't resonate as anything to us as readers.
I'm sure the family members of any character in a story are important to them, but if we, you and me, don't see them interact and develop, what do they amount to? Nothing.
It's not about being an action heroine. It's about establishing relationships and levels of investment in the cast. Saber and Rin are a constant throughout the entire novel's various plot threads. Hell, you outright play as Rin before Shirou.
Sakura simply isn't there in Fate and UBW, and that hurts her.
>>152686386
>>152686380
>Battle harems or get out!
Typical UBW fans.
>>152685454
You do know in Hollow he is far from senile right? He cracks jokes on Sakura literally all the time as he and Shinji push her buttons, yet act like frightened pups when she gets a little frosty.
If you mean that Zouken, it's because Sakura is (somehow) free from him that he acts slightly cowed. I mean, the girl who you tortured for years is free and has a gun to your head called a Servant begging you to make a move so they could ventilate your skull. Of course he seems cowed then, since Hollow is mostly played for laughs and Nasu relegates the Matous as some kooky Addams Family with the Nasu's black humor.
I mean, the guy has Shinji make a joke with Shirou about Sakura's bras seeming bigger than he remembers as he fiddles through her underwear drawer and Shirou doesn't smack him upside the head, despite everything being out in the open in that continuation.
>>152686431
But HF True is a harem end.
>>152686431
True end is harem.
>>152686510
Here we go, the shitty Sakurafags have to make it so she suffers in all routes besides HF and you can't change that. What's the problem with you people?
>>152686510
Dude, in HA, Sakura casually worries about having to help Zouken get to the bathroom.
He is not super threatening anymore.
>>152686193
I just said that because true ends have an emotional level to them that good ends do not. I was actually thinking about Arc's endings in particular. In one she has to leave Shiki for good because she can't resist her vampiric urges , the scene is bittersweet and Shiki grows from it. In the good end she just sleeps it over gets more power back and the vampiric urge is no longer an issue like before and they can be together.
Personally, I think that one of those ending feels like it was written to tell a story and the other was written to give the characters a good life. I don't know if I'm getting what I'm saying across. Like if you were to write a story about some soldier from some war and in one ending he lives with his trauma and having to be a handicap or something. While in another ending his wife gets back together with him and he gets a nice new house after coming back home.
>>152686386
You didn't listen to what I wrote then. Because at least a couple of those things I mentioned were in Fate and UBW, and she is constantly interacted with in the three routes. We constantly get either stories or see how familiar Shirou and Taiga are with her and how tight they are as a household.
I'm not saying you had to feel anything for her, but if you are arguing that people overall don't feel that she was effectively shown as part of Shirou's household, then I'd disagree.
>>152686608
Wasn't written by Nasu, thus non-canon.
>>152686631
I am sorry but both fit. The only reason you think one fits over the other is because you are jaded and believe the darker the more real. Since we are discussing UBW which is not a dark route, both endings would work also.
>>152686685
We did not see Sakura and Shirou go grocery shopping, we did not see Sakura being trained by Taiga's maids (which would be a fucking cool scene).
We know Shirou is glad she helps make the household less dead, but just on a straight factual level, she does not show up that much in the first two routes.
In UBW, after day nine, she doesn't even get mentioned until like, the epilogue.
You might have been invested in her, but she is a clear example of telling, rather than showing for most of the reasons we should care with regard to her.
>>152686685
I am not that guy but he is literally telling you word for fucking word that Sakura just did not get enough fucking screentime for him and a ton of her haters to care. Now you seem to have noticed even the smallest details regarding her character and took it deep into heart for some reason. Did you go in with a bias towards character design? Did you go in with a bias towards character archetypes? Or you simply like big breasted hoes, which made any small detail regarding her amazing.
>>152686777
I'm not jaded and I never actually said I liked one better than the other. I was talking about how the different endings feel like. When Nasu writes bittersweet stuff he does it from a narative perspective and in an attempt to write a tragedy like Urobutcher.
Again, this is just my personal opinion, but his true ends feel more narrative and his good ends feel almost like fanservice to me. I'm not saying they're bad though, I enjoy them.
>>152686970
Did you just insult my waifu?
>>152687006
>and in an attempt to write
I meant "and not in an attempt". Oops.
>>152686970
Maybe he actually read the VN. It's written right there in the VN, so it's not exactly hard to notice if you read the text in it rather than just skipping any scene that's not all about action.
If anything, it's far more likely that her haters go into the route with a bias against her.
>>152687006
I did not see them to be fan service but just another possibility. Saber staying doesn't change the main resolution of UBW at all. I can see why the Good End in Arc's route felt kind of misplaced but I just feel like he could have written it better. Nasu just doesn't put the same level of quality on the Ends that aren't True Ends.
>>152687143
Haters went into her route knowing little to nothing about her outside of what Shirou told them as those anons are pointing out. Then they got to see who she was in her route.
>>152679826
>Caster
>Would have been the only route without Saber as the summoned servant
>Lots of potential for philosophising over good and evil, with his compulsion to help everyone clashing with his desire to redeem her in spite of her crimes and the necessity of her hurting mass amounts of civilians so they can stand a chance of winning the war
>Medea falling for a dude even more fucking empty and weird than Soichirou would make for solid angst
>Possibility of hilarious interactions with Rin/Archer
>Her enhancements and such make for a clear and unique way to empower Shirou to fight compared to UBW/HF + justification for the mandatory H scene(s)
>Kojirou wouldn't be shafted in screentime for once
Is HF the ultimate waifu rescue anime?
>>152687143
Well I read them but again I did not care enough due to her lack of screen time which has been reiterate all over but you always seem to ignore it.
>>152687272
>team up with kotomine to rescue illya from your crazy girlfriend
yes.
>>152687227
Wrong. People generally hate her because they read incorrect/biased spoilers before reading HF and go into it with overly negative expectations and refuse to give Sakura the benefit of the doubt. It's why you see people saying shit like "should I read HF even if wormslut is shit?".
>>152687302
Blame the player, not the game.
>>152687143
I did not go into the route with a bias. I didn't go into FSN with any expectation. Shit, I didn't even know the meme thing about Shirou being the red man.
What I got out of HF, was that I was supposed to deeply care about a character who I did not particularly spend a long amount of time with.
Look at Saber and Rin. What does it take for you to get invested in their concerns and problems? Not a whole lot, I don't think. They're fairly easy to digest characters, and are likable.
Sakura though has deeply rooted problems, and rather than give you a considerable amount of time getting to know the good parts about her, they're basically thrust upon you, and you're asked to agree that doing anything for her is sensible.
It might be sensible to Shirou, but I as a reader am not Shirou. I haven't experienced what he's experienced, and just telling me she's important, because she buys groceries, doesn't get me nearly invested, compared to say how Rin saved Shirou's life right at the beginning of the game, or like how Shirou and Saber learn to depend on each other throughout Fate.
>>152686608
Um, was she cowering in fear while helping Shinji post UBW?
My point is that Zouken ain't suddenly Alzheimer's Poster Grandpa. Sakura just has a lot of tolerance. The old coot has enough wit to call her slow (even when she goes to Dilo and makes a Mystic Code in three months) and literally insults her for everything she does.
I don't know, but even Nasu acknowledges (through humor) that what they have can't really be called a family with that kind of history. He just takes the piss out of it.
It ain't me saying she will definitely have the darkest life forever, but reality is reality.
>>152687502
The guy literally needs help to go take a piss.
I can't exactly see him tormenting her much further after high school. He's about to kick it.
>>152687361
Why? That makes no sense, if something is badly done then you should consider it.
>>152687459
And yes, I know Rin saved Shirou because of Sakura's sake, but that doesn't do anything for me to care more about Sakura, it still just makes me like Rin.
>>152687459
She spends plenty of time with him in the early parts of the routes, and HF in particular spends the first 8 days on Shirou and her interacting with eachother. If you missed all that, that's entirely on you.
>>152687351
I have no reason to believe any of that. Even assuming that is true if you have so little faith in people's ability to make a determination after reading the route despite some supposed misconceptions heading in, I'm not sure why you'd care about their opinions to this degree.
>>152687351
He is not wrong, and you aren't either.
>>152687459
>What I got out of HF, was that I was supposed to deeply care about a character who I did not particularly spend a long amount of time with.
The worst part is that the narrative kinda forces you to like her which in my case just made it all the more annoying to like her. That route just tickled all the wrong places.
>>152687595
>I'm not sure why you'd care about their opinions to this degree.
Because they're generally vocal as fuck shitposters. This thread is actually relatively civil for once, though.
>>152687595
You fight for your waifu, right?
>>152687587
Well, just saying "she spends plenty of time" doesn't really add anything to the conversation, does it?
I'm willing to agree to disagree, and if you like Sakura, and find her well written, more power to you, but I think there are plenty of legitimate reasons to find a lot of what went with her fell flat.
>>152687587
The majority of HF she is a liability which makes it all the more annoying since the route is kinda tense. All her cute moments and cute anything get overshadowed by that fact, since her being a liability is placed center first on all the decisions.
>>152687775
You see many examples throughout the routes that show Sakura's connection as family with Shirou and Taiga.
We always got pieces of Sakura's mindset, like when she and Taiga had a sleepover with Saber, and you talk to both Sakura and Saber about it afterwards, Sakura says her apprehensions about Saber have been lifted (something you should have kept in mind due to her reaction to seeing your command seal). And Saber mentions how while Sakura seems docile, she always had her guard up around her at a really high level. The silly people who don't pay attention thought that was just jealousy.
Then you have the Fate route, where Sakura nonchalantly gets Rin to admit her school idol persona is an act, and you get to see a glimpse of the two sister's fractured relationship, as well as Sakura's strained pity for Shinji. Not to mention the scene before they went to school where Sakura confronted Rin showed not only a piece of Rin's clumsy way of being a big sister to Sakura, but Sakura's reactions to it. That they magically seemed to work that confrontation out in a five minute conversation should raise some thought to the player.
So saying you never see any of her before HF is plainly wrong. No offense, but that seems to be why some lack good analysis of her character.
>>152687823
1. This is a copypasta
2. No one is saying we don't ever see her before HF. She's just an extremely undercooked character before HF.
Keep in mind, before HF, there are 500k words of story. You could divide that up into 10 novels, and while Sakura may have scenes, there are an abundant less than Saber or Rin.
>>152686088
No, no I don't think my assessment is false at all.
These are short scenes that add up to drops in the bucket in a VN that's 800k words long.
Again, it's tell, not show.
Just like how most of the basis for Sakura's relationship is just that.
I never once said you don't see her prior to HF though, but she is comparatively a minor character in both Fate and UBW. I would say even more minor than Taiga, since she doesn't even have the dojos going for her.
Compare that to Rin and Saber, who are omnipresent throughout the entire narrative.
>>152687823
You get a minimal amount of time with her. I'll be honest I knew she was a heroine and she was kinda cool before HF but HF is not good for her. I knew that she had ties to being a master.
>>152687690
Certainly, she doesn't have any outright date scenes like Saber and Rin do, but after learning her circumstances and how she couldn't open up to others but Shirou and Taiga, it makes sense why her romantic development comes off as being a lot more subdued.
Scenes like her talking to Shirou at school about when she saw him jumping over the high bar and the way she went from an emotionally dead Matou spy to a kind girl who loves Shirou with all her heart are good examples of how the romance was set up.
Sakura was great in HA at least.
>>152686088
>>152686685
Again, we're told all of these things, not shown. We are told Shirou cares about Sakura, we are told Shirou would do the things in HF for Sakura, we are not shown why WE AS READERS should do the same.
Readers are given no reason to invest emotionally in Sakura. That some people do regardless is down to their own preexisting preferences and biases; for others the dissonance that stems from suddenly being expected to care for her only pushes them away from her. Especially with all the "red herrings" telling people she's the Antichrist eating all the characters they DO care about.
>>152687351
I went into F/SN knowing nothing, didn't even watch DEEN/SN.
I'd say Fate is the route with the most problems but Sakura is the character with the most problems. It's been said before that she suffers from lack of screentime but that also continues throughout her route, she spends so much time asleep or sick that it wears as the days go on, combined with the shadow killing you unless you pick nearly every Sakura option makes HF feel more railroaded than UBW and Fate. Another problem with her is that the tragic backstory goes to such an extreme it becomes hard to find it relatable. The last problem with how the route portrays her character is the whole Dark Sakura thing, even if the Shadow is not strictly Sakura we know she can control it to a degree, and Dark Sakura is essentially normal Sakura but given power and no filter. It was Sakura that chose to kill Shinji and Kirei and it was also Sakura that chose to torture Rin. The problem is Sakura does little to nothing to atone and it's characters like Rin and Shirou that struggle for her while she throws a world ending pity party. It's why I prefer Normal to True. In Normal you get a sense that Sakura understood the consequences of her actions while in True Illya dies for every ones' sake Sakura doesn't do much to atone and Shirou ends out needing to live with her or die. It just seems like a happy ending that no one really deserved.
>>152688000
That I can agree with. Not even just with the added exposure, she's just written as a more lively character.
>>152686970
No, there are just plenty of little details that add up to a good narrative with her.
For instance in Fate, there was a particular good scene where she walks to school and she casually gets Rin to open up about her honor student facade without anything dramatic, it's just good conversation. Things like that Sakura has in spades.
But sure, if you want to say I like her for the tatas then you are free to do so. They are some good tatas.
>>152687899
>it's tell, not show
"Show, not tell" is a meme for people with low attention spans. It's a visual NOVEL, of course things will be told through text. For what it's worth, though, the HF manga seems to be adding scenes to show what was only told or implied in the VN.
I just improved you're Sakura. You're welcome!
Sakura isn't over as a babyface. Saber gets over as a babyface. Rin gets over as a babyface. Hell, Caster gets over as a tweener, even if she jobs to Rin. Sakura, though, she's not over. That means when she is booked to beat the likes of Saber and Gilgamesh, she attracts heat.
Sakura Matou is the Roman Reigns of F/SN. The John Cena. The one chosen by the author that a few fans might like, but just as many if not more don't.
>>152688035
>while she throws a world ending pity party.
That's wrong, though, since she was intending to kill herself in the finale of HF to stop Angra Mainyu. She also kills Zouken and True Assassin for them, who they wouldn't have stood a chance against.
>>152688141
Even through text, show don't tell is a valid axiom
>>152688116
Her scenes outside of HF were good, but she did not have enough, specially for someone with the role of heroine. I wish Nasu would have done the two installments of Fate like it was originally planned. Sakura needed another route where she was not the main heroine but still played a main role like Rin in order to flesh her out before HF.
>>152688045
That was the point. She actually can live for herself now. But to me it was just more of what I already saw, from the small snarky lines she would give Shirou when the two were alone, to Shirou saying that he just altogether enjoys cooking with her as teacher and student.
She can enjoy being happy, so she is happier, that is about it.
>>152688201
>wrestling
Will the movies redeem the fandom's image of Sakura?
>>152688116
You can't blame Tata lovers for disliking her because her Tatas looked like tiny C cups in the game.
>>152688533
She already has a positive image. Her haters have always been a vocal as fuck minority.
>>152688635
t.Sakura
>>152688454
>not wanting to see a 90's style Hell in a Cell match between each Servant with JR on commentary
baka desu
>>152688533
Maybe, it would depend on the director and if Nasu adds more content with her and Shirou building a relationship. Unlike the VN where the sprites are limited in the movies she will at least be cute and expressing so much more that it might get more things across. All you really need is good scenes people can make webms about.
>>152688343
These scenes are ones in which we are SHOWN the connection between Shirou and Sakura. In the original we're just TOLD that Shirou cares a bit, in between scenes he's off with Saber actually doing stuff or with Rin actually doing other stuff. In F/HA we see the dynamics much more clearly than F/SN when the focus is more on Rin and Saber.
>>152688291
I didn't buy her committing suicide, and if I remember correctly neither did Rin or Shirou. She wouldn't do it, at least not while Shirou is alive. Angra Mainyu works by influencing, he can't control, just how Sakura doesn't ever straight up kill Shirou the way she does Gilgamesh, even at most corrupted means that's something she will never do, she also had that voice in the back of her head that when this was all over things could go back to normal, AM could exploit that to stall for the time he needs, after all Shirou could be on his way to save her right now, wouldn't want him caught in the cave in.
Killing Zouken is the same as killing Shinji, something she wanted to do but was repressing, killing Hassan was like killing Kirei, he was in the way. It helped the rescue effort but that wasn't it's primary purpose. In the end I can't see Sakura committing suicide in the Dark Sakura mindset, she needed to be saved.
>>152688717
>Fate Zero
>booked against large man popular with kids wearing a purple shirt and Wonder Woman wristbands
>takes her prana
>shines it up real nice
>turns that sonbitch sideways and shoves it straight up the wristbands candy ass
IF YOU SMELL WHAT THE RIN IS COOKIN
>>152688735
Sakura's own side-plot in HF is basically an altered version of Kohaku's, with many changes being for the worse
>>152688803
She was legitimately intending to kill herself, as the scene where Shirou Rule Breakers her shows, but Angra Mainyu could restrain her when she tried. In other words, it's more than a little dishonest to claim Sakura was trying to end the world, even if she wasn't actually capable of stopping it all on her own.
>>152688863
At least Sakura doesn't get saved from Zouken by Rin, then try to get her killed for the hell of it.
>>152688863
Yeah I feel that Nasu was burnt out by the time he had to write HF.
>>152688884
Sakura after Rin's sacrifice and Rule Breaker was a different sort of Sakura than Dark Sakura. That she only attempts to kill herself after being saved just goes to show that Dark Sakura wouldn't have gone through with it. Also the difference between wanting to end the world and the world ending as a byproduct of what you want isn't that big a difference from a practical standpoint.
>>152688854
>>152688717
>the return of jabroni beatin', poontang pie eatin', twin-tail hairin', kneesocks wearing, computer hatin', Mind Of Steel datin', best in the present, future, past, make the Sword of Zelretch to slap your monkey ass Tsundere Champ The Rin
don't change /a/
>>152689155
>>152688742
But we are shown those things in game.
You might have a point if a third party said that Shirou liked Sakura, but it's through Shirou's eyes, his words, and Shirou's thoughts we see that. If we can't take that for the truth of what he feels, then his adoration for Rin and respect for Saber are equally invalid.
The key he gave her us mentioned in Fate, far before HF, and he notes if you decide to apologize to her at school that he considers his house to belong to himself, Taiga, and Sakura. Again, stuff that adds up.
Now, because there are plenty of decent characters who get the shaft in the fandom for frivolous reasons, so that is why I note subjectivity. I see a good deal of very good characters get told they are shit all the time in other fandoms, that's just how fandoms roll.
I can't really be too mad about Sakura in that because she is much loved even as I see vitriol from some for her, as much as people fail to admit that she gets a lot of love.
Now, as a Sakura fan, am I satisfied entirely? No, lots of interesting details about her powers, Dilo being like a father to her never being shown and only told, and the like, hurt quite a bit. I wonder why Nasu doesn't show more great shit like that, I'd love to ask him. But neither is she a failure of a character either.
>>152689214
And then Rin rejects that and causes her to fall deeper into AM's corruption.
The second half of the very scene you posted is when Sakura becomes Dark Sakura and will no longer act on killing herself.
Yes it was Rin's mistake that makes the mess but it was also her sacrifice that cleans it up, it's a character taking actions to atone instead of talking about atoning, and it's something we don't really see Sakura do in HF.We do see it in HA and it's good there, I don't hate Sakura but I think her writing in HF was some of the weakest character writing in F/SN outside of Fate route Gil
>>152688863
You do know that Sakura is far and away the more popular of the three right?
I know what you are trying to go for, but it's time to open your eyes and face reality.
>>152689549
That image was probably created to show possibly similar characters at least in some facets. Nothing to do with popularity.
>>152689451
Sakura seals the leyline forever and spends the interim between the end and the epilogue cleaning up the town and taking on duties as Supervisor. Rin herself appraises the work when she gets back.
>>152674799
>If it doesn't pander to my edgy and childish taste, you should die.
>Just don't care it exist?WWWWWWAAHHHHHHHHH, MOMMYYYY!
>>152688854
Wait, wasn't that scene completely re-written and originally she never saves Kotone and the kids and was only saved by Kariya?
Yeah, fuck you Urobuchi. You ruin Sakura and Kariya's scene, but you add this. At least it was cute to see Rin being gal pals with Kotone.
>>152689658
Maybe I'm getting HF and HA mixed up but I thought it was Dilo that did that and she just helped with it. In the end though it was just more telling without showing. Having characters do major things over a timeskip and then wrap it up in a couple lines doesn't stick with the audience, it's not something we see Sakura do, it's something we were told she did, and after an entire route of seeing things Sakura did those couple lines won't really be changing many minds.
>>152688863
The girl in the middle should have been Sakura's design. Dark purple hair makes more sense as she used to naturally have black hair. Plus mid's hairstyle is better.
>>152689451
Nah it's not Rin's mistake. Sakura is just a special type of retard and Rin gets annoyed by Sakura's Martyr complex, you can see it in the sprites how quickly Sakura annoys Rin through her bullshit speeches that mean nothing. Sakura is a ton of talk and no action honestly.
>>152690279
Rin's mistake was allowing Shirou to convince her to spare Sakura only to have Sakura betray herself, Shirou and Rider anyway, later in the route. Shirou is honestly the special type of retard in HF. Sakura is just trying to save her own ass from beginning to end.
Both sisters are just watered down versions of characters from tsukihime with snazzier designs. Thread is bad and you should feel bad for having these arguments for almost a decade
>>152690475
>Sakura is just trying to save her own ass from beginning to end.
She kinda is and puts her Martyr complex as a front. The bad end where Rider kills Shirou as he is trying to kill her kinda makes it look that way.
Friendly reminder that Fate route is best route.
>>152690979
Worst route: Fate
Best route: HF
Worst heroine: Sakura
Best heroine: Illya
Honorable mentions: UBW
>>152691080
>A decent amount of the bad ends are Ilya doing horrible shit to Shirou let keeping his disembodied head alive
>Every route tries to make us feel sorry for her
Fuck off, Dr.Gil did a public service in UBW.
>>152691080
>Worst route: Fate
Worst post in this thread: Your post
>>152689868
>seeing things Sakura did
Such as?
>>152691197
Throwing Rin into AM to get raped for months.
>>152691252
>bad ends
Not like it wasn't something Rin brought on herself with that bitchy rant about not caring about Sakura's suffering.
>>152691309
Why should she care? They barely even have a fucking relationship anyways. Let's not forget that Rin let her live even though she knew she would end up killing them all. But of course Rin is a bitch because she did not care about Sakura's suffering, oh poor her she got rape by worms. That is oh so terrible.
>>152691405
>They barely even have a fucking relationship anyways.
That's kind of one of the issues that caused the entire mess. Even after learning the truth about the Matous, Rin tried to act like her father and ignore her own sister's suffering.
>Rin let her live even though she knew she would end up killing them all.
No, Sakura actually wanted to sacrifice herself to save Shirou and Rin. Rin was the one who egged her on by insisting on turning down her offer and killing her herself.
>oh poor her she got rape by worms. That is oh so terrible.
And here, people, we have the perfect example of how Sakura haters are too obsessed with their own forced memes to pay attention to what the VN says.
>>152691252
Of course, Ilya cutting off Shirou's head and turning it immortal so she can torture him for eternity is fine, though, right?
>>152690513
Rin isn't really very similar to any Tsukihime characters except in the most superficial of ways
>>152691624
>That's kind of one of the issues that caused the entire mess.
So? Not Rin's fault for the mess her father did.
>>152691624
>No, Sakura actually wanted to sacrifice herself
Who are you kidding she wouldn't be able to do it because AM and Rider would stop her. Her dumb as fuck pleas where only going to fuck over the world, good thing Rin saw through it all.
Oh poor Sakura, she suffered so much. So what? Like seriously who the fuck cares except for Shirou who is suppose to be dating the dumb slut.
>>152691950
>So? Not Rin's fault for the mess her father did.
She had no reason to keep pretending Sakura's not her sister after learning what the Matous did to her. Her lack of basic human empathy is all on her.
>she wouldn't be able to do it because AM
Yes, that's true. There still was zero reason to kill her, since Shirou had Rule Breaker. All Rin had to do was not go out of her way to piss off Sakura.
>Oh poor Sakura, she suffered so much. So what? Like seriously who the fuck cares except for Shirou who is suppose to be dating the dumb slut.
Not sure if bait or just edgy and underage.
>>152691941
>>152692171
>Not sure if bait or just edgy and underage.
Both.
>>152688141
...I don't think you know what show don't tell means.
It applies perfectly fine to a novel. It's the difference between writing a scene where a set of events happen, and just having a character explain they happened through expository dialog.
>>152688035
>Another problem with her is that the tragic backstory goes to such an extreme it becomes hard to find it relatable.
I have to agree on this point, the sheer number of twists and reveals in HF definitely injures her. One shouldn't need to relate perfectly to every character, but you do need enough anchor points to make somebody care, so if they have misery in their story then the reader needs to be able to link to it somehow.
Thing is, there's "tragic" backstory and then there's "Sakura" backstory, which goes so far over the line that it loops right back around into pure black comedy, where I just end up laughing at the utter absurdity of it all.I prefer HF Normal to HF True as well, though.
>>152685454
I'm not saying it's not canon, but isn't everything in HA just the result of Angra's wish?
Maybe the accident in the Einzbern Castle is just part of the dream.
>>152680243
This.
t. RinFag
The HF film threads are gonna be hell because of shitposters and/or anti-sakurafags.
>>152696728
Plus Rin gets to meet her future Mistress.
>>152696783
Nah, even UBW threads have some fun moments before Fai and his mal friends came to ruin everything.
>>152696783
How are they going to go down? You could watch UBW livestreamed with /a/ (Though those 3am screenings nearly killed me), but HF are movies, and will likely not be getting a wide release outside Japan, so most of us won't see them at first.
>>152696874
>will likely not be getting a wide release outside Japan
Why not? Fate is fairly popular in the West. The Kizumonogatari films got a release outside of Japan.
>>152696942
I thought Type Moon didn't give a shit about the west. Also if it took over half a year for Kimi no Na wa to come down here, how long will it take for something with nowhere near the same acclaim or clout?
>>152696964
>Type Moon didn't give a shit about the west
If that's true then nevermind. We'll just have to wait for the rip then.
>>152697031
I've heard mentioned several times that Nasu really doesn't like the West, and America in particular.
>>152689608
It's always a popularity contest with worm fans.
>>152690513
you mean Kara no Kyoukai.
>>152696821
>>152698971
What's that from?
>>152696964
Doesn't matter what Type-Moon thinks or wants. What matters is what Sony and Aniplex want.
The second half of FZ and FSN UBW were at Seattle's Sakura-Con to host the U.S. premiere
>>152696821
it was cancer. don't deny it.
>>152698900
>DUDE WORMS LMAO xD
You need to be 18 to post here.
Is Sakura the only pure heroine?
>>152692349
Man, how is it that Sakura is so similar to her in critical ways, yet Kohaku is infinitely superior. Maybe it's the angsty brooding.
>>152699256
>Saber knows how to please men and had a family of her own in her era
>Rin is the goddess of prostitutes
Pretty much, yeah.
>>152699315
Only Heterosexual Prostitutes, mind.
>>152699256
Shinji fucked Sakura, and, worms fucked Sakura.
Saber knew how to please men, she spoke from experience with that line.
Rin had (alleged) book smarts about it, but no actual experience, and she didn't understand the concept of dicks getting larger when they're hard.
Illya is a virgin, albeit a slutty one.
So two non-virgins and two virgins, a more or less even split.
>>152699256
Rin never fucked Shinji. She did get Shiji's seconds in the form of Rider though.
>>152690089
>With her long, lustrous hair, soothing smile, and (secretly) dynamite body, by all rights she should be the star heroine. Too bad she's an unfortunate girl who just sort of fades into the scenery.
>Of course, that's only natural, seeing as how her initial concept was an "Asagami Fujino type". She never had a chance at avoiding bloodshed.
Kohaku is similar in backstory but very different personality-wise from Sakura. Asagami in KnK is much more the "original" Sakura.
>>152696728
In the entire VN the only time Rin ever shows anything remotely resembling empathy towards another human being is with her crush. Any other positive interaction she has with another person is solely because the object of her love wants her to do it. She saves Shinji because she knows that if she leaves him to die when she could have tried Saber will tell Shirou, she tries to help Sakura because Shirou tells her to her face that if she doesn't help him he will remove her. She attempts to attack Issei and is stopped by Shirou, she ends up bonding with Archer because he is Shirou.
You can argue she has changed after HF due to her character arc, but as a character in the VN Rin utterly lacks empathy, and she's fully aware of this too.
>>152699361
>Rin literally risks her life to save Shinji who tried to rape her the previous day
You know she wanted it. She just wanted Lancer more, so she played hard to get until he rejected her.
>>152699462
This.
>>152699439
>>152699494
Rin's a terrible magus because she keeps trying to have that lack of empathy, but "faking it until you make it" never quite works for her, and it's noted and commented on.
>>152699462
I thought there were far more girls she was into than guys. Seems the reverse is true.
>>152699539
>risks her life to save someone she allegedly doesn't like
>has to have her life threatened to stop her from murdering someone whose allegedly super important to her
Rin just a stupid bitch
>>152699577
Play the game instead of reading lesbian fanfics.
>>152699620
Rin's lesbian tendencies are one of the hottest things about her.
>>152699664
Rin is bisexual not a lesbian.
At the very least she has an active libido, more than Sakura does without the worms interfering.
>>152685151
>Nasu writes how Shirou's entire journey is one of irony where his pursuit of his ideals inevitably has him doing things he hates
>Anime instead depicts Archer just killing people through time and space as Counter Guardian
>Of which isn't even what Guardians do since they kill world-ending threats rather than random soldiers
>>152685905
It's not only that, it also would completely shatter the image she had of her parents for handling their daughter to a monster and she would realize that she could've had the same fate if she didn't have the luck of not being chosen.
I thought it made a lot of sense that Sakura felt ashamed and thought Shirou would look down on her as dirty, so she wanted validation
>>152700016
It would be autistic for anyone to literally break from the death of someone you barely had a connection with.
>>152679522
>Please, find it in your hearts to forgive us.
Where are you pasting this stuff from?
>>152673579
There is no chance of that happening in fate or ubw route.
>>152696783
>Implying the interressing part of HF is Sakura
Come on, I don't like Sakura but I love HF; if only for Kirei, he his what made this road cool.
>>152703665
I love Sakura though.
>>152703704
Good for you. I just don't like her; matter of taste.
>>152689868
The issue here is that there weren't many minds needing changing. It was the longest epilogue by far, barring Last Episode which was much less meaty. Same with UBW True, but the anime fixed that for the most part. HF True still stands as the route that gave us the most concrete conclusion even with UBW True's add on with the anime.
Basically, adding more to it would have made the epilogue too long, but we learn a wealth of things that happened. Sakura sold off pretty much every profitable thing she could get out of the hellhole she was raised in, to get Shirou that USED body, she willingly took up the job of Supervisor when asked and does her job well, according to Rin, who is the most critical of her.
If there is anything HF True could have used it's more from Shirou's perspective, but Nasu wanted to close with the game from Rin's eyes, just as he opened with it.
The only ones who need convincing, were the people who wouldn't have given Sakura a chance even if the epilogue had her become a nun and raising all of Fuyuki's orphans. Still, even saying that, I hope Nasu adds his own stuff for the movie.
>>152673579
She probably won't, and she probably won't even return to fuyuki that much if she's going after shirou, probably only to kill the greater grail 10 years later, by that time sakura would've probably moved on and souken will be dead, she'll have a more sisterly relationship with luvia anywayand die a horrible death after following shirou through dangerous places
>>152674230
>return 10 years later to destroy the greater grail
>discover how sakura has been constantly abused and used to be a new grail while she was living the dream with the boy she knew sakura loved and could have saved her
Yeah rin would break, badly, and I don't think shirou could fix her after that. ON the other hand an older broken sakura could be a terrifying sight too. I guess Waver can fix rin with proper dicking while shirou kills sakura or something
>>152700101
That is the thing, she stalks Sakura all the time, that much is true. See Fate, she gets extra angry at Shirou for making his kouhai make him breakfast and Shirou notes all the time in the game she gets frustrated more easily or reacts with less composure when Sakura is brought up.
The talk they had in UBW outside the Matou household is the bigger hint you get prior to HF.
>>152704222
Zouken would be long gone by the time Rin came back to destroy the Greater Grail with Waver.
>>152704293
He could also take possession of Sakura's body via crest worm.
>>152704293
>>152704342
Wasn't his original Idea to take over Sakura's body after she became the grail anyway?
Why does Rin hate Sakura?
>>152704429
She's self righteous and thinks everyone can overcome anything they're confronted with, and by not doing so you're just looking for excuses, at least that's what she has to tell her tsundere self to move on and function, but she's just a fragile child.[sakurawormsrapebreakingRinscene.jpg/spoiler]
>>152683815
>pregnant with an ancient devil
>killing her not a choice
it's quite a logical choice IMO
>>152704598
No, the logical choice is an abortion.
>>152704380
Sorta, it's implied that it was, but then he just started fucking around and threw her into the worm pit for shits and giggles. He's already degrading, and he barely makes it anywhere near the end of FSN, let alone the impossibility of lasting another decade.
He's just too far gone.
>>152700105
Don't trust the wikia
http://tmdict.com/en/
>>152686691
>Wasn't written by Nasu, thus non-canon.
>Hollow ataraxia
>>152699289
They are no where near alike. The only similarity is abuse in the name of fostering some supernatural element and how messed up certain societies who dabble in it are. Same with Fujino, they showed the darker side of this world.
Kohaku was used to calm the blood of hybrids, Sakura was an experiment more akin to Fujino, but different in how she lived.
The differences are stark, Kohaku adopted a persona thinking of herself like a doll to cope, while with Sakura it's pointed out that if she shut out her emotions and became a mask she would have not suffered as much.
Kohaku blocked it out, Sakura adapted. Two completely different things.
>>152704293
>>152704342
>>152704380
>>152704702
If Zouken posseses sakura after UBW (could have done it before the end of UBW anyway and nobody would've noticed it) They'll just have to kill her/him if he tries anything when they come back to destroy the greater grail, it'll be harsh for Rin and Shirou, specially Shirou but that's the path they've chosen and I doubt they'll second guess at that point specially with Waver and the association behind them, dunno, it's an interesting scenario.
>>152685056
Natural enemy is just gookspeak for "this person will fuck this character up"
Arturia will absolutely destroy both Archer and Gawain.
>>152689214
>>152689451
Rin calling Sakura out on her bullshit is the only reason Sakura survived. Sakura may very well have actually killed herself before Rin taunted her. Rin had every reason and they were all valid to laugh at what Sakura was saying. People who don't get that Rin was deliberately riling Sakura up to keep her from doing something idiotic like kill herself after Rin and Shirou had already resolved themselves to save her are just retards.
>>152705059
Well they wouldn't even know unless Zouken can glamour himself and took Sakura's form, since the body just turns into Zouken after he eats the brain and by then the person is just gone. He tried to do that to Sakura at the end of HF.
That was his whole mantra about Sakura hanging on more than he thought, once her mind succumbed to AM/her "training" and she been brain dead, he was always planning her to be worm food and a new body. He says that early on in HF and reiterates that point repeatedly.
>>152699494
Shinji wasn't mass murdering innocents and potentially bringing in the Association's Enforcers to kill everyone in Fuyuki as a coverup.
And Shirou was the one who insisted on saving Shinji.
>>152705059
Even if he possessed her at the end of UBW, he'd still be dead anyway before long.
>>152705511
>Rin was deliberately riling Sakura up to keep her from doing something idiotic like kill herself
>source: your ass
Rin had been trying to kill Sakura before that too.
>>152705593
>Shinji wasn't mass murdering innocents
Funny, neither was Sakura.
Did Sakura deserve it?
http://raw.senmanga.com/Fate-Stay-Night-Heaven's-Feel/20/26
>>152705652
>Rin had been trying to kill Sakura before that too.
>thing that never happened
>actually believing for a moment any of Rin's magus facade after UBW
>being a secondary
>Funny, neither was Sakura.
>thing that actually happened
>it was a serious problem and even Shirou had multiple internal crises over it
Why are wormfags so fucking oblivious to reality?
>>152697046
>Tfw when your from the country you know most Japanese (and probably Nasu) like.
>>152697046
That's always been a baseless statement given he's such a huge Westaboo.
>>152705746
UK?
>>152673579
Rin is irrelevant and pretty weak.
She'll probably just cry and faint.
>>152705511
Eh, I dunno about that. Rin didn't know how to help her either. And Shirou only came up with the idea for Rule Breaker later when he heard that AM was linked to her by contract.
Rin was just doing what she did though the entire route, and that was falling back to being confrontational when she doesn't see any other options. It's something you see when she tells Shirou right after that scene when Sakura leaves that she can't hold out hope to save Sakura like he can.
It brings back that entire point she said earlier on that she needed a partner to act as her brakes because of her tendency to be bull-headed about her decisions.
Shirou calls her out on that a couple times and told her that being honest and using positive reinforcement was always the better option. Sure, Sakura deciding to kill herself was dumb, but it was also because she didn't know any other options. Ironically, Saber agreed to that plan, judging by her talks with Shirou.
90% of the reason shit goes so badly us because of the lack of critical information.
>>152705801
No, the one who actually just behind them in buying all the shit they wrote.
>>152705718
>Did Sakura deserve it?
Can't wait to see Shinji BTFO in the film.
>>152705719
>thing that never happened
Bad end 30 and 31 come to mind.
>thing that actually happened
Shinji, Zouken and Kotomine aren't exactly innocents. Those are the only humans Sakura kills. You'd know that if you weren't a secondary.
>>152705593
He didn't because he was stopped before he was able to.
It's funny, people call Rider just an emotionless killer, but there was a great bad end that contradicted this during the first Saber/Rider confrontation in the Fate route. Rider suggests taking Shirou to a hospital, and Shinji just orders her to finish him. It's a strike against those who think Shinji is just some well meaning guy and not a really messed up guy with a chip on his shoulder.
And further, for the UBW anime, Nasu says if Sakura knew Shinji was using Rider's Bloodfort as he was, she would have "made him even more of a wakame". A mark against those who think Sakura doesn't care about people.
>>152705928
Was Shinji in the right or the wrong?
>>152705930
>Bad end 30 and 31 come to mind.
>Rin still never actually tried to kill Sakura
>Shinji, Zouken and Kotomine aren't exactly innocents. Those are the only humans Sakura kills. You'd know that if you weren't a secondary.
Right, so the whole point that the Shadow is Sakura's unconscious mind is lost on wormfags then?
>>152704642
Or turn it into a phallus like object and keep it stored in her vagina.
>>152704275
Again, stalking =/= having a relationship with. It just wouldn't make sense.
>>152704429
Because Sakura has a Martyr complex. If its capable of annoying the reader who is a total loser reading a VN imagine a successful normalfag like Rin.
>>152673579
Depends on what condition she finds Sakura in. If she's somehow become a robot programmed by Zouken, which is highly unlikely due to her strong mind, she will definitely try to get help from the Association to recover her sanity. If she's on a rampage however, I doubt she would let Sakura live.
But then again, knowing Gilgamesh was aware of Sakura's condition and the fact he visited the Matou house for a while chances are he pulled out some deus ex machina that works only against Zouken and frees Sakura and she and Shinji live happily ever after.
Does Sakura have the best qualities of the Fate heroines?
Can we expect the first film to release during the summer?
>>152706952
Sometimes between now and the end of the year
>>152691147
But dude, Fate is truly weakest out of all routes.
>>152708404
It has some glaring flaws, but I'd not say it's the weakest. It is on par with UBW, and Last Episode is probably the best ending ever.
>>152706755
For what purpose would Gil eliminate Zouken when he never bothered in HF and would have solved innumerable issues before hand?
Why are Shirou and Sakura obsessed with helping other people?
>>152708671
>It is on par with UBW,
?
>>152708671
>It is on par with UBW, and Last Episode is probably the best ending ever.
I always knew that Saber fags are about to be little delusional, but like this?
>>152709025
When your takes such a massive down spiral in childhood, sometimes you want to validate yourself through someone else.
It's a good thing they get decent people who appreciate them. Their personalities are prime targets for being taken advantage of.
>>152708404
That's just your opinion. Fate is the best route for me, it's the one I enjoyed the most. It also has by far the best finale, and the best romance.
>>152708671
>Last Episode is probably the best ending ever
I'd have been more inclined to agree with you if you said it was on par with UBW as long as you ignore Last Episode, because the original ending is so great it obfuscates a lot of the route's flaws.
Now I know you're just an idiotic Saberfag.
>>152710750
HF's finale is better. It's a better version of Fate's finale even.
>>152710860
Last Episode fits in perfectly with CoTD.
Hey /a/, I've got a bit of a theoretical question.
Would the original Japanese audio of the UBW anime, and the English dub, have any real differences in terms of audio mixing? Particularly with the dialog? I've got a a pet project I'm working on, and this might help me if true.
>>152704064
It's interesting to read that if Sakura had ended up with the Edelfelts, she would have had a thousands times better life with an adoring, doting older sister.
>>152681805
Guy's always an asshole. Despite the spin offs and additional Fate/ content, the number of characters who actually like him in universe can still be counted on 1 hand.
>>152710750
>Being fine with just introduction route than full-action or full-emotion route.
>Being fine with simple pandering ending with no depth than two possible natural conclusions to main theme of story.
You sure have really low demands, anon.
>>152711397
You must hope that upcoming Apocrypha anime will show something from this.
>>152712075
Unless Nasu is involved I bet the only changes from the source material will be trimming the easily reworkable expostion stuff(like the Clock Tower stuff) to save budget.
>>152712075
Didn't know there even was one.
>>152712264
>NAsu
>Apocrypha
What did he mean by this?
>>152712283
Which is is my point. The only reason we got new content in UBW and are going to get a whole bunch of new stuff in Extra is because Nasu is involved in his own works.
>>152712337
But Higashide himself is series composer for the Apocrypha adaptation.
>>152712610
Oh then I guess there's hope.
Speaking of Apocrypha, is it normal to only announce when an anime's airing the season before? Because at this rate it'll be a Fall 2017 thing.
Either way it'll probably overlap with either Prisma Illya movie or HF 1. Let's hope we get news at AnimeJapan.
>>152706240
>>Rin still never actually tried to kill Sakura
She didn't just try, she succeeded there. Read the VN.
>Right, so the whole point that the Shadow is Sakura's unconscious mind is lost on wormfags then?
You mean the point Zouken was making when trying to trick Shirou into betraying Sakura? The shadow is the grail feeding itself.
>>152706635
Nice projector you have there.
>>152673579
Haha nothing because Rin is a trueborn cunt. She inherited it from her father.
>>152714071
Cunts attract cunts. And Rin likes cunt.