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Cel-shaded anime

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Thread replies: 249
Thread images: 58

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does something like a very nicely animated cel-shaded anime exist?
very nicely animated as in, it isn't animated on 2s or 3s or trying to imitate shoestring budgets hand drawn anime in any other way
because it seems to me that with the technology available in the year of our lord (2017 - 1/243) somebody ought to be able to produce good CG anime instead of trying to imitate something that shouldn't have been in the first blace
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2kXtKpABg
>>
Cassette Girl
>>
>>151600042
BBK/BRNK kinda
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3D will NEVER look as good 2D
Why?

Simple mathematics

2D uses only x and y axis for animation. Thus, the medium always leads to fluid animation when shape morphing is used.

3D uses x, y and z axis for animation. The extra dimension prevents proper shape morphing as well as all other 2D animation techniques.

Simply put, 2D objects have less degrees of freedom thus, have less constraints to fluidity of movement.
>>
The night portion of the Princess Precure movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Ds0fG1vn8

And hopefully Seikaisuru Kado: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0X3ixj8UJM

Miyamoto Hiroshi, who directed the Refi portion of the Princess Precure movie, is in charge of supervising the character animation of Kado.
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>>151601221
Stupidest attempt at looking smart I've ever seen.
>>
>>151600042
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp-9MvP-MZA
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>>151601221
>2D uses only x and y axis for animation.
Except for when they rotoscope.
Which is pretty much all the time.
You dumb bitch.
>>
>>151602072
>Which is pretty much all the time.
Except it's not.
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>>151602140
Anything with more than 5 keyframes you can bet your ass is rotoscoped. This is not the 80s bitchboi.
>>
>>151601221
this really isn't the problem, shit CG is shit becouse the models aren't polished enough or becouse they didn't know how to handle the shadows.

CG on a realistic seting can look good, or even having a constant style on shading and textures make good looking products.
>>
>>151602197
Good job, you picked an example of rotoscoping from two years ago that was infamous for sticking out like a sore thumb. Clearly that proves all anime is rotoscoping.
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>>151602383
The bottom line is in your own sentence.
I choose the one that sticks out.
That is not to say other examples don't exist.
From this year there's quite a few.

Reality of the matter is, they don't need it for talking heads which is most of the episodes in solshit and other non action garbage, but it gets enough use in the few places they need movement.

>MUH ANIMU
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>>151600513
This.
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>>151601418
These both have the animation on twos, which OP didn't want.
>>
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Second season of Knights of Sidonia looked pretty cool at times

I will remain optimistic about the Blame! movie, I honestly think this style has potential
>>
>>151601418
>>151603267
Just watch them interpolated.
>>
>>151601221
PS that image has nothing to do with anime or animation.
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>>151603348
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDA1bUkotIk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz5siEX72nY
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>>151603348
Animation of characters (in both seasons) was far from perfect but rest was really good.
Also other scenes than people (like mech scenes) looked more like cartoon than CGI from average modern mecha anime what looks more like just CGI.
>>
>>151603348
You must be blind.
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>>151603654
That is because modern mecha is all made by tracing 3d models the only reason we can't tell is because robots/machines don't look weird in 3D like humans do.
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>>151602197
What happened to modern animators? Have they no skill in character animation?
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3D is more realistic, which means you can't get away with simplistic animations like you can in 2D, yet they try anyway, and it looks robotic. The effort saved in not redrawing every frame must be put into livelier animation.
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>>151603267
They're timed to imitate limited Japanese animation, but they're animated on 1s. It's not like they removed frames the way Rakuen Tsuihou or BBK/BRNK did.
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>>151600042
It doesn't until someone steals namco's vesperia/graces shading
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>>151603778
Time and budget happened also as anime got more detailed it got harder 1080vs480. Old anime was simpler and didn't let the QUALITY get in the way.
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I enjoy Ronja Rövardotter.
>>
>>151603523
>that first one with the ill-fitting special effects
>that second one with that awful music, screaming, and forced exposition.
>safeguard design looks changed for the worse
>looks choppy for God knows what reason
Pls no.
>>
>>151604111
Really strange that particular old series look better than anime today. I think it also has to do with budget. As less and less budget goes into a series and more into merchandising and marketing.
>>
>>151600042

Berserk?
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>>151603936
>They're timed to imitate limited Japanese animation, but they're animated on 1s.
>It's not like they removed frames
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, it seems contradictory.
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A CUTE!!!
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>>151601564
Prove me wrong faggot

>>151602072
>Except for when they rotoscope.
Which is pretty much all the time.
You dumb bitch.

Do you even know what dimensions are?

Of course you don't. You fucking retard.


>>151602382
CGI is not the same as 3D animation.
3D is any animation with x,y,z axis involved. The extra dimension makes the animation rigid.

>>151603516

I pretty morphing of shapes has a a lot in common with you know...morphing shapes.

t.retard
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>>151600042
Guilty Gear Xrd~
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>>151600507
God damn I forgot how good Etotama's cg portions looked.

Its such a shame it flopped hard. they did a good job on the show.
>>
>>151605328
You got me then. I've never frame-stepped and just assumed from Miyamoto's other works.

The movie ED is definitely on 1s though, and iirc the 3D Precure EDs are all set to 30fps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-adDPWCL8GI

There are the Aikatsu lives, which Samurai Pictures perfected toward the end. They never used mocap unlike the majority the CGI anime dance sequences that exist, so they have the potential to animate a really good looking full-length production.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VexJ_0Uvplw
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>>151601221
The biggest issue with 3D anime right now is that studios use the worst fucking shaders even though we have really convincing ones available.

And you're right that there are constrictions to using 3D. But you actually have it backwards. There's more freedom in 2D animation because you can do things that would be impossible in an actual 3D space. This results in cartoony transformations and stylized proportions that would be hard to carry into 3D without the proper tools to allow for it. The right camera tools could potential bridge this gap, though.
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>>151605700
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>>151605700
>>151606001
From these two, I can see that another issue in addition to shaders and skewed proportions is keyframes. 3D animation has the potential to look TOO fluid. They have to keep a balance in keyframes that makes it seem smooth like 2D but not TOO smooth or too stuttery.

Things like the hair physics are unnecessary as well, they make it look even less "convincing" if the idea is to mimmick 2D.
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>>151606147
Fuck!
First people complain about lack of frames and how you complain of too many frames??
Make up your fucking mind!!
>>
Anime production studios will use whatever tools and resources which would cut the most cost out of producing shows.
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>>151605067
Some old series are definitely better but every era has it's own set of problems. we look back and we see the cream of the crop and complain that what we have is inferior when we have the same amount of good and terrible stuff.

>>151605163
the problem with berzerk was the direction not the 3D animation they could have made a good show even with 3D. Same with how I wont ever be able to enjoy Etotama even though the 3D is really good because I hate the entire premise.

>>151605619
Heres your (you) I guess.

>>151606147
>if the idea is to mimmick 2D
This is another problem with the 3D in the current era, people want anime (2D) or so they think but what really matters is if the whole product looks good and comes together well.
Between a competent 100% 3D show and an incompetent 3D to 2d lookalike I would choose the former every time. But if pressed to choose between 2D and 3D of similar quality I think I might go with 2D.
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>>151606365
>This is another problem with the 3D in the current era, people want anime (2D) or so they think but what really matters is if the whole product looks good and comes together well.

It's still animation, and we have a lot of "laws" and "theories" of animation like we do with film or any other medium. Stuff like the hair flowing is uncanny, and in anime especially you want to avoid uncanny imagery because it can disrupt the viewer's immersion.

If we're to eventually switch to mostly 3D animation with 2D as a novelty, imitation is the way to go in terms of the transition. Once 3D anime comes into its own then animators can experiment more with it. And of course 2D will never completely fall out of style because there are techniques and aesthetics that simply cannot be replicated in 3D, like how some animation is still done traditionally vs digitally because digital animation cannot do everything traditional can.
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Just look at guilty gear xrd.
Basically as good as cel shading gets
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>>151606218
The only problem with this I have is that the character looks too damn 'clean' compared to the dirty as fuck backgrounds.

That combined with the fact that the backgrounds are flat plates, even though they try hard to hide it the character looks 'floaty' in some places like the feet in >>151605700
.
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>>151606657
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VudKBQ-bsMs
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>>151606500
Yeah but I pose that the only reason it is 'uncanny' is because it doesn't look 2D enough or 3D enough and is stuck in-between.
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>>151606147
Hair physics are usually a plus, see how it's done in western media for good examples. It's just that this particular movie was fucking terrible.

Actually, just look at western media in general for examples of how powerful CGI can be. CHeck out Rogue and realize that almost everything you see, including some human characters is 100% CG. Watch a Pixar movie.

CGI has the potential to be an amazing tool for anime. The reality is that the anime industry is inexperienced with it, and too set in its ways to make progress.
>>
CG PIGGU GO HOME
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>>151606933
Japanese anime isn't and shouldn't be animated like Pixar's films. Pixar's characters aren't designed to be attractive like most anime characters, they're made with a general western audience in mind and are stretchy and pliable. They aren't focused on keyframes either, and I wouldn't sacrifice Japan's beautiful use of keyframes for anything.
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>>151602046
I was hoping for something that looked good as well as being nicely animated
>>151602197
holy fuck how bad does this look
what were they thinking
>>151603475
way to answer to the original question
>>151605879
thanks for the input, tho I was hoping for something using a shader so to make everything look 2D, and still being animated on 1s
FLCL, to name one, doesn't look much like it's made using cel-shaded 3D models, and in most scenes it's animated like the vid about Seikaisuru Kado you posted, tho isn't there something that looks 2D and it's animated on 1s?
>>151606347
>which would cut the most cost out of producing shows.
take The Rolling Girls, which I'm guessing it's cel-shaded 3D models
it wouldn't have cost much more to render a bit more frames there since the models and key frames were already there
>>151606667
agreed
>>151607525
>I wouldn't sacrifice Japan's beautiful use of keyframes for anything.
>old stuff is better
>new stuff will never be as good as old stuff obviously
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>>151607832
>FLCL, to name one, doesn't look much like it's made using cel-shaded 3D models
>take The Rolling Girls, which I'm guessing it's cel-shaded 3D models
The fuck are you talking about, they're both 2D productions.
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>>151606582
Where's this from?
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>>151602579
No, rotoscoping always stands out for several reasons:
* Animation designs rarely have realistic proportions, so tracing footage of a real person will cause a mismatch in that respect.
* Traditional animation is typically made by first drawing keyframes and then drawing in-between frames that transition from one keyframe to the next. The end result of this is that it's basically morphing from pose to pose (this is part of the reason why it's difficult to animate slow-moving objects). Live action footage does not have this behaviour, so rotoscoped animation ends up looking different in this way.
* Unless you're going full Aku no Hana, there will always be parts that cannot be traced at all; commonly, the head. Not only is this often the most disproportionate part of an animated character, which will stand out even more on a realistically proportioned body, it would end up being animated the conventional way, so even when animated on ones, its motion would stand out.
* Real people are slow compared to animated characters.

Now using existing footage as a reference, much like an illustrator will have books full of hands and poses, will undoubtedly be more common, but that's not the same as rotoscoping.
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This is pretty much the thing that's lacking in 3DCG attempting to look like line art. Sure, it's possible in principle, but it would require making multiple 3D models for every character, which kind of goes against the whole reason 3DCG is typically used for: to lower costs.
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>>151608673
gravity rush
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1iqJqfvV_o
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>>151600042

WHO SAID YOU COULD HAVE NICE THINGS
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>>151606582
This shit was crazy, not to mention the CGI looked pretty good.
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One day we'll have neural networks drawing anime for us. By the time that happens we'll be long gone dead.
>>
>>151609239
What is this from?
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>>151610349
Nippon no Mukashibanashi (Folktales from Japan). Note that every story in this series is drawn and animated in a different style. This one's from the most recent version of the Orihime and Hikoboshi story in episode 221.
>>
All 2D anime human doll CG looks like crap. Maybe animators can reduce the 3D to 2D gap in the next few years, not only limiting to CG backgrounds.

These are the popular ones.

Guilty Gear, looks cheap with subpar art.

Etotama, generic Korean CG used on cheap mmorpg commercial, miniature CG human doll, and looks like 3D.

Casette girl, looks cheap, no innovation, and subpar art.

Polygon, subpar art and stuttering animation or low framerate.

Sanzigen, low framerate resulting to stiff animations.

Orange, still looks like 3D.

Disney's Paperman, still looks like 3D even with washout colors.


https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/12350
This came from one of Toei's CG director, who single-handedly improved Graphinica's CG animation, even though they have amateur animators, for example, they did a mistake on Haifuri, which is embarassing for a CG animator.

And they're improving.
http://youtu.be/Zb23-qAOjeg
>>
Etotama and Expelled from Paradise
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>Cel shaded anime
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>>151610566
Thanks. I've watched a few episodes of that before and it seems like a neat series. Not sure if I can be bothered watching through the whole thing though.
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>>151611152
>>
>>151609239
Studios would need funding to develop animation software that allows for more modular models and skeletons.

Which they can't do because Japanese studios have almost negative funding. And Western studios like Pixar are only interested in making 3D look good, not making 3D look like 2D. It's an unfortunate conundrum.
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>>151610233
INA
ZUMA
KICKUUUUUU

Is there a compilation of every time this has been referenced? Must be at least a dozen times.
>>
>>151611443
There's hundreds of action anime that have come out since 1988, so at least dozens (plural).
>>
>>151603898
>Cleopatra and I are basically BFF's for 3000 years
>suddenly CHINA declares war on me and Cleopatra sides with the treacherous chinks for some idiotic reason
>I thought we were friends, she's always praising my actions and bringing up the idea of forming an alliance
>I conquer both of their empires using my superior navy while repeatedly ignoring their pathetic attempts to make peace once they realized that they were going to lose
>every other civilization in the world hates me because they "think I'm a warmonger" even though I've never started a single war and have removed the REAL warmongers (the ones who actually declared war for no good reason) from existence

Why is it always so lonely at the top?
>>
>>151600042
https://youtu.be/HqUEISdpDss
https://youtu.be/1E4O5YFarYQ
I liked Bubuki Buranki.
CGI is good for stills and short repetitive animations in characters. I personally hate obvious CGI backgrounds and faces, like when they talk and you can see the row of teeth. And one thing that always bothered me is when they just leave the physics and shadows on auto, so even a talking close up has hair and clothes awkwardly moving around and shadows constantly appearing and disappearing with every movement.
>>
>>151600042
There is a cost there for that which you didn't calculate. Making CG look like cel is more or less untreaded territory. If people will like it or not is unknown or if there is a feasible way to do it and have it not cost an absurd amount of money is also a variable to look at. In the end there is no reason to do that as whay works not works fine.
>>
>>151611417
Why do the Jap animation studios have such tight budgets? Is anime in general just not very profitable or is the money just allocated in a way that leaves the animation side of the operation disproportionally underfunded compared to western animation studios?
>>
>>151611278
As you'll no doubt have noticed there's not a shred of continuity in the series, so you can just watch whatever you're interested in. Sometimes they remake stories they already adapted once or twice and it's kind of interesting to see the differences between the versions, but that alone is not enough reason to take on this 246 and counting episode colossus wholesale. That said, if you are interested in following the series, I do recommend watching the earlier episodes up to a point instead of only watching the episodes coming out from now on, simply because that's where all the well-known stories are concentrated.
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>>151612038
To add to this the only CG show that looked really good were shows that used videogame CG such as etotama and bubuki.
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>>151612151
>shows that used videogame CG
???
>>
>>151612189
Bubuki used the same CG for the show that the recent fire emblem games used for it's cutscenes. Those CG were tried and tested and the result was something that didn't look like complete ass. Regular anime CG ends up looking fairly bad with the exception of sidonia.
>>
>>151612077
Most animation in Japan is contract work. That means that how much a studio is charging for its services will be a major factor in a production company's decision which studio to go with for a certain project. It's therefore often in a studio's interest to make their prices as low as possible.
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>>151600042
Do Wind Waker's (GC) cutscenes count?
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>>151612628
>a very nicely animated cel-shaded anime
>nicely animated cel-shaded anime
>cel-shaded anime
>anime
>ANIME
Take a wild fucking guess, idiot.
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>>151600042
I think the biggest issues with 3D anime are these top 4 things.
1. Animation Quality (budget/talent)
2. Framerate (design)
3. Lighting (budget)
4. Model Quality. (talent)

So much could be improved in anime if the top 2 were fixed. Why people decide to limit the framerate of 3D anime down to the teens makes things look absurdly janky.

And for those who don't have the budget to get fantastic results, they can always draw over the most important bits of the 3D models to make things look better.
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>>151612329
>Bubuki used the same CG for the show that the recent fire emblem games used for it's cutscenes.
That's... clearly not the case. They're entirely separate productions utilising noticeably different animation pipelines.

I think you're getting yourself confused over the simple fact that both franchises had Kozaki Yuusuke working on character design...? In which case you really shouldn't be talking like you're a sort of authority on anything when you're making huge assumptions based on half-assed observations.
>>
>>151601221
Guilty Gear would like to have a word with you
>>
>>151612329

Sidonia looked crap too, with its zero-g creaseless plastic clothing and underwater-slow character movements
>>
>>151601221
3D already looks better than 2D. You want the highest quality animation in the world? Go watch the pixar short that aired before finding dory. Nothing 2D can ever touch it.
>>
CC2 CGI anime when?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaECpq61H8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-PudD1UrvU

https://youtu.be/jQeIVpehXoc?t=17m35s
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>>151613383
>>
>>151613541
Fitting because it takes place in fucking space
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>>151613297
He's also designed characters for a couple of CG projects by Khara.

He seems to be a real favourite when it comes to adapting anime style into 3D.
>>
>>151606001
this shit is like 20fps?
>>
>>151606729
>english
puking my brains out.
>>
>>151613690

In a ship with artificial gravity
>>
All of you guys should go back on r/anime and r/sakuga
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>>151614549

And you should fuck off back to gaia
>>
>>151603898
Yeah, it's the SLERPing that makes things look disturbingly smooth and unnatural. Why body noise and physics aren't folded in to counteract this, in this day and age, is a mystery.
>>
>>151600042
Animating in 3D is infinitely more complex than animating in 2D.

Draw a shape in 2D = draw a shape
Draw a shape in 3D = ????
Do you draw an infinite number of 2D shapes?
Do you draw the shape using a sculpting brush that draws surfaces instead of lines?

Even if you could draw surfaces like you could draw lines in 2D (such as using tilt brush or a scultping pen), you still have to draw a lot more than in 2D. It is not feasible to draw 3D models frame by frame.

So that is why in 3D animation, instead of drawing shapes, you just create a small number of vertices to control, which the computer makes into a smooth surface.

But that inevitably gives less control and freedom than simply drawing the shape directly. Imagine, in 2D, instead of just drawing the lines you want, you had to use Paint's pen tool to draw fucking everything. That is what 3D animation is and why Disney/Pixar all looks like smooth blobs.
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>>151614710
Anime studios doesn't have the budget to make 3D look really great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZJLtujW6FY

Shit is complicated.
>>
>>151610233
Looks good because they set the shaders to off everything is flat with no shadows.

>>151611417
>need funding to develop animation software
Yeah if only the studios could afford the expensive software that randos on the internet use to make MMDs. This isn't a technology problem it is an execution problem, modular skeletons are fucking easy compared to hiring a team of competent animators and a director that knows how to use them.
>>
>>151601221
Just run a 3d animation model in a neural network to output a 2d hand-drawing drawing.
There, problem solved.
>>
3D just needs to advance. It's the future whether we like it or not
>>
>>151613189
Fuck NuBerserk looked awful.
>>
I'm probably a Luddite, but I don't believe in 3D unless it's shaded in a way that makes it look like it was drawn by a human. Every frame deserves a mother or father.
>>
>>151614710
About that

Peter Chung says that 3D animation is more "animation" when 2D animation is half drawing half animation

And that 2D is a pain and if they had 3D back then, they never would have even attempted to animate in 2D

https://vimeo.com/22175308
>>
http://a.pomf.se/fnnxva.webm
>>
>>151615077
I think it's a combination of lack of tech and incompetence, honestly.

You can't seriously say that MMD produces acceptable 3D-imitating-2D anime, it just produces pure 3D animation. Most animation software isn't designed for cel-shaded 2D imitation, it's designed to create things that instead take advantage of 3D cartooning.

And yeah, I totally agree that directors and animators are incompetent when it comes to 3D. Which makes perfect sense since they've been working with 2D for years and we're still in the transition period. Up until around 2005-2008 there was almost no CG in anime. Even now mecha shows are still a mixed bag in order to achieve the right aesthetics.

>>151615820
He's right. However, the aesthetic of 2D animation has a charm and certain capabilities due to being drawing that it will never be fully surpassed by CG unless they can perfectly imitate the quirks of hand drawn animation. Which would require more specialized software and people who are skilled with imitating 2D in 3D.
>>
>>151601221
>3D looks worse than 2D because it's not good at copying 2D
>>
>>151600042
Okay, you want to know the REAL reason why 3D will never look as good as 2-D? The reason is insanely simple: They OVERTHINK things.

Just go look at the blender tutorial online for making a character's face. That shit is takig waaay too long because the fuckers start with a "plane" then shape it out to fit.

How are you taught to make a face i art class? a fucking CIRCLE.

So, you have these numbnutses that overthink their methods to make something simple.

Once these fucking idiots start with basic shapes like cylinders, cubes and circles, you will see that they can then simplify the process down to manageable levels.

Hell, if they interpolate the algorithm properly for things like hair, they can compute it to take the "mass average", flatten the colors, and get more fluid 2-D hair.

Dumbasses. All of them. and just so they can make their jobs seem more complext than they are.
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>>151609239
>This is pretty much the thing that's lacking in 3DCG attempting to look like line art.
So why not just stop doing that? I mean you don't have to go full photo realistic, but why do they have to attempt replicating thing one-to-one? It's the same thing with the framerates. Is it because of the manga adaptation business or the otaku that anime have to look so similar to each other? Why don't they try to sell the shows themselves with how they look or as platforms for new technology? If the selling point is looking good then animators would get funding exactly for what they want to do!

Look at videogames from the 90s and 00s. Sure they often don't look incredible but you can tell they were trying to work with the technology and not against it. Something like The Wind Waker still looks great despite the years because they knew what their limitations were. I know comparing the average anime to a Nintendo game isn't fair, but still.
>>
>>151605163
[CLANG]
>>
>>151616526
>Why don't we ignore the business model that works and gamble on new technology.
The real answer you will probably get is that 3D isn't anime and that you should go fuck off back to your final fantasy spirits reborn and leave us alone.
>>
>>151605163
>>151616630
stop
>>
>>151615820
>Peter Chung says that 3D animation is more "animation" when 2D animation is half drawing half animation
Well that's obviously true, but it's because the roles are split.
In 2D, one guy does both the drawings and the animation, they're inextricably linked.
In 3D one guy does the modelling of the characters, another guy does the rigging of their skeletons to facilitate animation, another guy does the animation, another guy handles the cloth and hair simulation, another guy handles the shading, rendering etc...

There are advantages and disadvantages to this. The advantage is that each individual gets to really focus on what they specialise in. The animator's canvas is JUST movement, he gets to think purely about that, and doesn't need to know how to do anything else.

But the disadvantage is that he doesn't know how to do anything else, and if he wants to stipulate certain things about any of the other aspects of the 3D animation process to create a more cohesive looking result, then he has to really be able to communicate that to his colleagues. Getting ideas across properly, not to mention wrangling with just all the hassle of communicating between departments, it's all a real hindrance.

Meanwhile, the 2D animator mainly has himself to communicate with, so many more roles are consolidated within one person. If he needs things to be a specific way, he can just draw it. Of course I'm not saying there aren't different departments and roles in 2D, there are, but it's all a lot less spread out.

This is a really longwinded way of getting to my point that I think the true problem with 3D half the time is that the animators have too hard a time grappling with the rigging and the modelling of the characters, and also because they don't need to know how to draw, they often suck really fucking hard at posing. What others me more than anything else in 3D is stiff characters. Stiff around the neck, stiff around the back.
>>
>>151617397
Ah, I hit the character limit.

The final thing I wanted to say is that I find 3D characters often look terrible when they run. Even in 3D stuff made by Peter Chung. Running is really complicated, there's a lot of physics in it, I think this is what throws the animators off, because it's difficult to know where to "start" from, they often end up looking like they're weighted wrong.
>>
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>>151617397
I'm not really knowledgeable about 3D animation but I thought that maybe even alone you could first model the characters, then animate them

When in 2D you gotta alternate

Even if you're right, with light drawings such as pic related it's kind of the same as being able to focus on animation and only later on drawing. It might just be a matter of distribution of task.
>>
>>151600042
>very nicely animated as in, it isn't animated on 2s or 3s or trying to imitate shoestring budgets hand drawn anime in any other way
practically all anime is on 2s and 3s most of the time. 1s are only used for dancing or fight scenes. and often not even there and they just smear and stretch instead of doing 1s.

so what's important about that if it's not important for regular anime?
>>
>>151617397
>another guy does the rigging of their skeletons to facilitate animation, another guy does the animation, another guy handles the cloth and hair simulation, another guy handles the shading, rendering etc...

Except you don't need most of that you just need a competent animator a decent model and a good 2D shader.
>>
>>151606667
>The only problem with this I have is that the character looks too damn 'clean' compared to the dirty as fuck backgrounds.
Well in that movie it's because the girl is from space and on the ruins of Earth.

I agree it's a problem in other 3D shows though.
>>
>>151617053
>the business model that works
Does it though? Why are """""we""""" here then?
>>
>>151617756
What space magic makes it so that she doesn't get dirty walking around a bunch of ruins.
>>
>>151617579
>Even if you're right, with light drawings such as pic related it's kind of the same as being able to focus on animation and only later on drawing. It might just be a matter of distribution of task.
This is what I'm saying though. Iso does it rough to focus on the movement, and then draws over it neatly do that it's well drawn as well as well animated...

...but what's important is that it's him doing both of those things. While he's roughing out the movement, he's thinking ahead to the drawing, and while he's doing the neat drawings, he's thinking back to when he was roughing out the movement. Each phase informs the next, because it's all being done by the same guy.

If two people do this separately, their understanding of what the other party imagined the final result would turn out like isn't as solid.
>>
>>151617762
Because we like to complain about all the free stuff we torrent from the internet.
>>
>>151617710
You don't need a good rigger?

You think you can competently animate a character by literally deforming the model frame by frame? It'd be a mess by the end.
>>
>>151617795
>This is what I'm saying though. Iso does it rough to focus on the movement, and then draws over it neatly do that it's well drawn as well as well animated...

I know, I was just confirming. Most animators do that really, it's quite impossible to do nice things without that.
>>
>>151617851
You think you need to rig a different model for every scene?
>>
>>151618003
No, but I think you need to rig the model in the first place, which you seem to be implying isn't necessary
>>
>>151605879
>GoPri ED
no, it's shit

Doki or Maho looks way better.

maho ed1: https://aww.moe/u2p7ft.webm
doki ed1: https://aww.moe/prjgnj.webm
doki ed2: https://aww.moe/2h0cvl.webm
>>
>>
>>151618095
And somebody has to do the rigging, right?
>>
>>151618144
Whether or not it's shit, this is one of the best examples of 3D imitating 2D I've seen so far. I'm assuming it doesn't look as good in other scenes, but part of capturing the aesthetic would be careful cinematography to trick the viewer anyways.
>>
>>151618153
Yes. A rigger has to do the rigging.

So when I say:
>>151617397
>one guy does the modelling of the characters, another guy does the rigging of their skeletons to facilitate animation, another guy does the animation, another guy handles the cloth and hair simulation, another guy handles the shading, rendering etc...

and then you say:
>>151617710
>Except you don't need most of that you just need a competent animator a decent model and a good 2D shader.

You're saying the model doesn't need to be rigged.
>>
>>151618095
I am implying it isn't the majority of the time and who does it doesn't matter terribly much to the final product.
>>
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>>151618196
>I'm assuming it doesn't look as good in other scenes
that would be an understatement
>>
>>151618284
I mentioned earlier in the thread that a huge advantage of 2D is that because it's drawing, you can distort perspective and proportions.

Get rid of the fog, play with warped camera effects, and this shot would look way better. That distortion of reality is something that 3D animators really fail to capture, and it's what makes 3D anime dip into uncanny valley.

The two shots you posted are actually perfect because they show that detailed closeups are fine with those shaders, but wide shots NEED to be distorted to imitate the aesthetic.
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>>151607977
>they're both 2D productions.
it's not all scenes but there's more than a little 3D stuff
>>151617660
>so what's important about that if it's not important for regular anime?
>it's not important for regular anime
it's not vital but it would look better, and it's not done because of either the animators have a very tight budget or they want to imitate the aesthetic of very tight budget anime
>>
>>151618144
There is next to no movement to the model so 3D can do better than 2D. Action scenes are much more challenging.
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>>151618450
I remember FLCL being completely traditional animation. What parts had 3D?

>>151618458
Yeah, anime animation software would need specialized features for more modular models to tie into that idea of distorted proportions.
>>
>>151618282
Not him, but I don't think you understand what rigging is. There are job listings for dedicated character riggers in Hollywood.
>>
>>151618554
Human movement and facial expressions seem awkward
>>
>>151618555
There were literally 2 scenes with 3D, in episode 1 and episode 3, that both involved the camera rotating around characters. If I had my hard drive to hand I probably have a webm of it.

In both scenes the characters are rotoscoped over 3D models, and they're not even animated, really, it's like a freeze frame bullet time sort of effect. I'm sure you know the scenes I'm talking about
>>
>>151613655
If it wasn't for all the hair movement in the first shot and some janky modeling/shader stuff when she does the spin this would be nigh indistinguishable
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>>151618555
>Yeah, anime animation software would need specialized features for more modular models to tie into that idea of distorted proportions.
They're working on that in small bits and pieces.

I've seen smears, afterimages, non-geometric faces and face-faults being applied. But only in small amounts. More like test-driving the features than actually applying them from day to day.
>>
>>151618554
That character looks great from the front but terrible in profile
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>>151618554
Cel shading here is 8/10 but there's the issue with keyframes again that I can't exactly pinpoint, it makes the movements look really jagged. Someone here more versed in animation might be able to explain exactly what the problem is.

Since they got everything else right I'm assuming it's a problem that's not exactly a quick fix.
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>>151618717
>>
>>151616526
Because:
* 3DCG is often used in combination with traditional animation and while there's no way to make them indistinguishable, you still want some semblance of cohesion.
* Anime is often based on existing works with existing designs, and while designs always need to be reworked to be practical for animation, in order to look good in 3D "rework" pretty much becomes "rethink from the ground up"
* There's a whole industry of people trained and experienced in the "2D way". Going to the "3D way" doesn't just affect the animation, it affects storyboarding, layouts, colour setting, character design etc. People who can do this need to come from somewhere.
* Looking good in 3D requires more advanced rendering, which takes more time and therefore is more expensive to do. We're trying to lower costs here.
>>
>>151618755
this is well done
>>
>>151605619
>I never mentioned CGI
>Doesn't know what CG means
>not the same as 3D animation

You don't know what are you talking about
>>
>>151618690
The motion smear and camera work here are pretty good.

It's also lacking the keyframe issue, so maybe I was wrong about it being hard to fix.

2D backgrounds are also a huge help, especially with complimentary camera work to not make them jarring.
>>
>>151618858
Oh shit, so they do have the ability to warp models based on camera angle. Without the jittery keyframes it would look really good.
>>
Is it weird that compared to most 3DCG anime, I find that RWBY does it much better? The Japanese could learn a thing or two from RT
>>
>>151618975
They always had the ability to change meshes. The thing is doing it efficiently and making the workingflow intuitive so that it does not require too much work from the animators.
>>
>>151618569
>There are job listings so it must be a hard job and stuff. Also I am going to go ahead and assume you are uninformed because we disagree.
I Know what rigging is and I also know that it takes less time than animating and is a fundamental part of the modeling process for making models that you know are going to be animated the modeler can do it if they choose to or the animator can do it if they want something specific and that depending on your software the damn thing practically rigs itself if you need a dedicated rigger once it is done then the rigger can go get fucked.
>>
>>151618458
>Action scenes are much more challenging.
Actually I would say action scenes are less challenging. They're more work, just because the character is doing more, but easier to mask the 3D-ness.

Look at this >>151606582 where the character is moving around a ton and you barely have time to take in the fact it's a mathematically perfect rendering of a model (i.e. that it's not a drawing)

and compare it to something like this >>151606001 where the movement of the model takes it on a fairly simple path and our view of it takes us on a slow rotation around the model, giving us a clear idea that it occupies a 3D space
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>>151618989
>RWBY
No.
>>
>>151616496
>How are you taught to make a face i art class? a fucking CIRCLE

There is a box method to draw faces tho, and is even better that the circle one becouse the box help you make bone structure.
>>
>>151614374
Anime has 24 video frames per second (not all of those are necessarily distinct images). It's not a video game.
>>
>>151619074
But do you know what commas are?
>>
>>151618989
Isn't RWBY barely a step above machinima?
>>
>>151619102
>Season 2
>Not Season 4
They've gotten better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WeiG2-HRQ
>>
>>151619219
>machinima
did you know what machinima means?
>>
>>151619227
wow, they finally reached tesagure levels.
>>
The Fire Emblem cutscenes have already been mentioned, but the 3D cutscenes of Tokyo Mirage Sessions are quite gorgeous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofneUr8ekA

Is similar technology just too damn expensive for anime to use?
>>
>>151619295
Yes. What's your point in asking me?

The animation looks like it was recorded in a video game, and likely it was done through a method not unlike recording gameplay in a video game hence why the animations seem reactionary or based on very crude cutscene scripting.
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>>151619216
>I don't have anything worthwhile to say so I will complain about some pedantry.
>>
>>151619227
It's still both unimpressive and irrelevant to the discussion since we're talking about cel-shaded 3D anime, not just 3D animation. RWBY only vaguely preserves anime aesthetics.
>>
>>151619421
>looks like it was recorded in a video game
but it wasn't, it's not even close to how retarded it looks something out of a machinima.

That is why I asked.
>>
>>151602197
Why are they picking up the chips? It's disgusting
>>
>>151619400
some of those outfits look too detailed, they stick out.

Looking beyond that, the write dress sure looks damn nice.
>>
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>>151617793
The same kind that makes butts like this.
>>
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>Knights of Sidonia
>used 3D cel shaded animation
>"well it looks like shit, but at least the animation will be smooth"
>stagger model animation to simulate being "shot on threes"

FUCK FUCKING MOTHERFUCKERS WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU EVER DO SOMETHING SO FUCKING STUPID IT DEFEATS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF USING 3D ANIMATION YOU STUPID GOOKS AND YOUR FUCKING MOTION SICKNESS AND YOUR SHITTY CHOPPY ANIMATION MADE BY CHILD SLAVES IN KHON KAEN

FUCK

FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKK
>>
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>>151619619
Makes sense that she is a robutt. If a regular human wore those heels they would be incapacitated before the dirt became a problem.
>>
>>151619768
Your reasoning is flawed.

If 2d animation can look decent at 12 fps then so can 3d if they apply it properly.

Otherwise you're just gunning for pixar movies and not anime.
>>
>>151619837
she's an uploaded human mind stuffed back into a lab-grown body. not a robot.
>>
>>151606582
Khara got that on lock. 4.44 is saved?
>>
>>151619882
But can she solve the captcha?
>>
LEST WE FORGET
>>
>>151619951
Now this is CGI done right.
>>
>>
>>151619802
I can hear the clicks between frames.

>>151619841
False. 2D is interpreted completely differently by the brain than 3D and you are forced to see the jank at low FPS.

>>151619882
Don't you think they could have lab grown her some clothes so she doesn't look like a laser slut.
>>
>>151619951
Things have come a long way
>>
>>151620001
>2D is interpreted completely differently by the brain than 3D
why? both are just tools to get pixels onto your screen. with sufficient finesse they can achieve the same.
>>
>>151619980
Aoki looks really nice when the characters are standing still, but the actual animation looks really wonky, like a bad clay animation.
>>
>>151620068
I find it often looks bad when the movement is just a simple pivot around a fixed point, especially when it's the waist, like that character sitting up at the end (I don't know their names)
>>
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>>151619841
You missed the part where everyone who was following it had to use a fucking custom MPC plugin to make it not look like ass. Face it, the show looked like hot shit. The only reason they staggered the model animations was to make it look more "like anime" when it was perfectly capable of running "on the ones" as they say.

>>151620001
>False. 2D is interpreted completely differently by the brain than 3D and you are forced to see the jank at low FPS.
I don't know if this is true, but the entire show was a choppy, unwatchable mess. FOR NO REASON. The 2D parallel doesn't even matter in this case since they purposefully made it look like dogshit - no wait, that makes it even worse. It's like making a feature length movie, cutting out 50% of the content, then releasing it as two straight-to-VHS movies with different names. Or building your own yacht, putting wheels on it, and driving it to work with the anchor trailing behind you.

Why?

WHY?
>>
>>151620288
sure, sidonia looked like shit. but more fps really does not make it look not-shit. it just makes it look like fluid shit.
>>
>>151620346
I would rather drink diarrhea than choke to death on a shit log.
>>
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>>151620346
This. One thing that really bothered me was that literally all the characters felt hindered by having oddly short necks.

Sidonia's one redeeming factor was all the GUI porn
>>
>>151606417
>Force of Will movie
Hopefully that expands the player base.
>>
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>>151619841
>>151620062
>>151620346
But the fact that Nips intentionally fuck up 3D animation to make it look more "anime" is fucking horrifying.
>>
>>151620671
I have no problem with that as long as the end result is ok.

I don't want a realistic CG movie. I want anime, otherwise I would be on /co/ or /tv/.
>>
>>151620288
>>151620062
It is true your brain is exceptionally good at picking out what objects are 3D and what are flat or background this is fundamental to how we operate and lets us know when shit is about to go down.
For 2D this is less of a problem because your brain fundamentally ignores the flat, it doesn't look 3D because it isn't 3D but once it finds a 3D model it interprets the model as a physical object it NEEDS the thing to follow the rules and move smoothly and not accelerate strangely. There is a minimum frame-rate for this and 12FPS is clearly too low.
There is an uncanny valley effect for 3D separate from the one for human approximations your body knows what 3D looks like and can tell when it is wrong.
>>
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>>151620288
Rendering on ones just means generating more in-between frames, but doing that doesn't necessarily make things look better and in fact has the potential to look worse. It becomes more obvious that there are a relatively low amount of keyframes, because when something moves smoothly, you expect there to be more subtle motions, which doesn't happen because it's just transitioning between two states. You pretty much have to start lip synching, because smoothly moving mouth-flaps make the deceit just too obvious (you see this becoming a problem a lot in video games with an anime aesthetic).

It's pretty much the same problem as with vector graphics. Sure, you can zoom in indefinitely and it will never get pixelated, but something that was designed to look good at a small size is often going to look pretty terrible when blown up to take a good chunk of the display.
>>
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>>151619400
>kiria without pants in 2d opening
>with pants in 3d concert scene
3d was a mistake
>>
>>151621412
There was a bizarre single shot somewhere around episode 4 or 5 of Girlish Number in which producer-kun's mouth and jaw flapped as if they were filmed in 60fps. It lasted less than five seconds, but I went back and obsessed over it. It looked like that annoying orange thing's mouth.
>>
>>151621412
I don't understand why they don't just animate normally like 3d cutscenes in video games, but with cartoon shaders
>>
>>151618989
Only the third and fourth (so far) are better, and they imitate cel-shaded 3D from western TV more than Japanese, which generally looks better because it's not trying to look 2D (the main reason you probably think RWBY looks better).
>>151619488
You're an idiot. Trying to copy the same aesthetics that were designed in two dimensions in the reason the 3D looks bad. Something like Miraculous Ladybug would be a great improvement.

>>151619841
>Pixar movies and not anime
Fuck off with this. There is no reason Japanese shouldn't emulate something just because it's western, especially when it looks better.
>>
>>151621412
You say this, yet video games have no problem making 3D animation look good. "Anime aesthetic" doesn't magically make it worse, especially since such games really don't try to look 2D like 3D anime does.
>>
https://youtu.be/yhGjCzxJV3E

Guilty Gear XRD went to insane lengths to look good and it paid off. Why can't anime capitalize on this
>>
>>151622644
Because of the same notes they made in that same presentation. It's extremely labor intensive. Anime uses 3D animation usually as a means to cut costs not double it.
>>
>>151622530
>>>/v/
>>
>>151619951
A E S T H E T I C
>>
>>151622644
Still look like shit.
>>
>>151622172
Think about what games have animation good enough that you could make a show out of it and what games don't and you'll have your answer why they can't just do that.

>>151622635
Way to miss the point. The aesthetic doesn't make things magically worse, but it does allow for certain shortcuts to be taken they could otherwise not take, because it comes with lower expectations (e.g. no one expects an anime character to have proper lip synching, but it would look weird if a realistic-looking character didn't have that). It's those shortcuts that fall apart when the motion is too smooth.
>>
>>151622172
>>151622530
>>151622635
Fuck off ignorants.
>>
>>151603523
the gun is the most important object on the story and they fucked up its sound
>>
>>151619570
The chips are in individual packages.
>>
>>151618107
I hate Miyamoto's style too, but it easily has the strongest character animation out of all the Precure EDs so far.

Doki's first ED was also supervised by Miyamoto (and I believe he modeled Heart and Diamond), while he helped out on Maho's. I still think HappinessCharge's first ED looks the best though.
>>
>>151618794
There's a Making Of video that I can't link to right now. I do remember that the part with her hair being blown by the wind was assisted by 2D animation.
>>
>>151625824
see
>>151621711
>>
>>151600507
That actually looks passable. How did they do it? No stuttering frames due to low frame rate, good effects, the shading actually looks like 2D. What magic is this
>>
>>151603898
3D is so gross.
>>
I wish people would stop animating hair as polygons in 3D. When you draw 2D hair moving, you don't think of it as a triangular shape that is being bent and stretched. You're drawing the volume that all the individual strands take up, but the strands still move by themselves. 3D animation needs to simulate strands individually, and then render them as a homogeneous shape if desired.
>>
>>151626071
>No stuttering frames due to low frame rate
there is, a lot of it is on 2s

it's actually surprising to see how often people are blind to it, although the 24fps-to-30fps conversion has made the whole video a little janky looking, so that might mask it a bit
>>
>>151618144
>It's shit
u fuckin' wot? It was legitimately good.
>>
>>151614575
You are a true a true patron of 4chan and i enjoy being in your presence.
>>
>>151617053
God damn it i hope you see this.
I love you
You tell him
>>
>>151601221
>2D uses only x and y axis for animation
>3D uses x, y and z axis for animation
Not true, both cel animation (you call 2D) and CG animation (you call 3D) are still two-dimensional as they're displayed on a flat display (computer monitor, TV screen, cinema projection, etc), just as live action media is 2D, however all three simulate the effect of appearing 3D. For live action it is simple, it is an inherent factor of photographing reality that means things appear 3D. Things become bigger when they approach the camera, three dimensional shapes form as the camera moves around them, differing camera angles give the audience an orientation of the space in the scene, these effects are obvious and were factors from the very foundation of live action film. However the same is not true in animation, it took some years for animators to fully grasp how to display three-dimensional space in animated film.

Take this film from 1906
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dRe85cNXwg
and compare it to this film from 1914
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVra1mW7LU

In the second example we see Gertie becoming larger as he approaches the frame and the rockface beside him shaded as to simulate a rounded edge. The film properly simulate a three-dimsional space, a cel animated film has all of x, y and z axis. You can try and justify the aesthetic principle that 2D imagery is better looking than 3D imagery, however no animated film (with the exception of the work of absolute film) has ever willingly attempted to appear two-dimensional unless due to the lacking talent from the animator.

>Simply put, 2D objects have less degrees of freedom thus, have less constraints to fluidity of movement.
oh shit sorry this was obvious bait because of the blatant and comical contradiction, fuck I typed all this before reading the rest of this comment. gg, 6/10 I'm slightly upset
>>
>>151626071
You and etotamafags think alike. They kept praising their favorite aots having all 1s, they didn't even notice stutters in the OP intro.

And OP is CG illiterate.
>>
>>151616496
You're trolling, but let me reply anyway

Uh...3D requires more thinking because you need to actually shape it in 3D space. You brought up plane modeling, and yes. people need to create a model that fits the form of the object they're replicated. In a drawing, the shape and depth are all implied. the only thing that exists is on the paper.
>>
bump to hear more technical stuff
>>
File: Arhan setup.webm (2MB, 640x360px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
Arhan setup.webm
2MB, 640x360px
>>151620001
>Don't you think they could have lab grown her some clothes so she doesn't look like a laser slut.
She is meant to stay inside her robot.
It is unfortunate turn of events she has to roam outside of it.
>>
>>151619151

Interesting thought - I have never heard of this method. I'll have to look it up. Thanks.

>>151631173
Not a troll - Someone that is frustrated that people take the HARDEST way to make something over an easier method that gives them better results. You know how long it took for people to adopt the "Fucking circle" method of drawing heads that people like Loomis used?

3-D is the same way - they make things too complex, instead of just using the shapes they have available to them, merging them, then adding in the finer details as they go.

I have literally, using blender, made a complex face i nless time than the guy that made his using that stupid pane method I mention. it was all just:
* Make a sphere.
* Select "front" view
* Cut sphere in half vertically, removing left side
* Mirror the object
* Switch to "left" side view
* Cut the top two horizontal longitude/latitude areas off
* Cut the bottom two off.
* Select the lower quarter of the sphere
* Shrink it in 25%
* Take central point in middle, left most point
* Stretch it out - this is now your nose.
* Start shaping top and bottom of head. Add in a plane on top and bottom and merge in. Total creation time: less than seven minutes.

The shaping still took less than 20 to get something I wanted shaped, and for a more detailed head with eyelids, etc., it took me two hours - still less than what the other guy did...
>>
>>151606347
When I was younger I felt more for the Studio's Owner but now I relate more to the Animator.
>>
>>151633653
You think you're being innovative, but that method leads to terrible topology and edge flow in the final product. It might look fine in a static render but it'll fall apart the moment you try texturing, rigging and animating it.
>>
>>151600507
Too many frames and too much unnecessary camera movement.
>>
>>151600507
This.

Also Active Raid CG sequences were pretty neat.
>>
>>151600042
CG anime is ASS and if you think otherwise you have terminal shit taste
>>
This thread has done nothing but prove >>151601221 right. Holy shit, 3D trying ti imitate 2D is fucking awful. It will never, ever look as good. They have better luck just sticking to 3D realism.
>>
File: hayao-miyazaki.jpg (36KB, 480x270px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
hayao-miyazaki.jpg
36KB, 480x270px
>>151603778
>Have they no skill in character animation?
Yes.
>>
>>151600507
It is just to jarring.
>>
>>151633653
Consider this: there are many, many ways of making 3D models. To name just a few:
NURBS
Constructive solid geometry
Digital sculpting (which seems to be similar to what you're alluding to)
Drawing edges like you would in a paint program, "filling" them once you have 3 or 4 of them in a loop

Many of these have been around for a long time and yet despite the ample choice, subdivision modelling remains the preferred choice for modelling animated characters, especially when you have a polygon budget. At this point you just have to come to the conclusion that several decades of experience tells us that this way of modelling isn't overthinking things, it's simply the right tool for this particular job, for now. Sure, people preferring methods they're used to, "I'm faster with an abacus than a calculator"-like thinking could be part of it, but this is a technology-driven field with a lot of competition that won't allow you to rest on your laurels.
>>
>>151634015
So the problem is lack of TALENT. I got you.
>>
>>151606582
Whoa
>>
>>151636754
The more time you spend on manually getting the topology right, the less time you're spending on shaping the model. Congratulations, you've now spent a lot of time on something the computer could have easily done for you had you accommodated it better, what a waste of TALENT.
>>
>>151606933
>modern anime is all about cutting corners and working for a bowl of rice
>look how gorgeous AAA movie CGI can be!
Literary imbecilic.
>>
>>151616496
No< it's because 2D is made by artists while 3D is made by technicians.
>>
>>151637638
Thread posts: 249
Thread images: 58


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