https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ 0K3lWKRc Miyazaki is fucking savage

>>150836199
What a bitter old man.

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>>150836199

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>have an AI that is self learning and can manipulate models to achieve task
>Miyazaki cries like some triggered SJW baby
He has no idea what he's even looking at. He probably thinks they made it move like that themselves.

>>150836349
this

>A.I. was a mistake

>>150836199
>savage
Kill yourself

>>150836349

T. Asshurt moefag

How the fuck did he not see this coming and why is he being such a bitch about it? Change happens, get over it.

Good, I only participated in one of the previous 6 threads so I was hoping for another.

>we humans are losing faith in ourselves

Don't loose faith, /a/.

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JUST

>>150836199
>creating art is glorious
>creating something that creates art is disgusting
this is why japanese don't reproduce

>>150836349
>>150836440
>>150836454
>>>/v/

>>150836199
>Show him some gross looking zombie shit
>Expect him to look pleased.

>>150836769

Not everyone was here yesterday you cocksucker. Some of us have better things to do than lurk a Congolese gravel transportation board every day

when I saw this i realized i agreed with him

for everyone on this thread, this comfort with the supremacy of technology is sort of ingrained for us. when i sat on the computer with my dad when i was all of 5 years old, for him it was a cool capitalist gizmo, for me it was this unquestionably amazing thing that symbolized pure progress.

for anyone who was less enthused - again, technology as this byproduct of capitalism, the tendency to throw ourselves at these things is just bizarre. and now we're making these just... strange things, just because we can. it's not right.

where i agree with miyazaki spiritually is that i do anticipate down the line you're going to see this sort of pop culture theory of 'humans are meant to evolve into machinery/the singularity is inevitable/seele is gonna bring about human instrumentality' actually come to fruition. some people are proud of their history and see themselves as individuals, with an identity, and a duty to their ancestors and to their future descendants, and some of us are post-gender asexuals liberals, actually unknowingly totally under the yolk of capitalism who are probably so apathetic to identity that ascending into some formless communal orb that represents the end of humanity isn't an inherently objectionable idea


t. /pol/

>>150836695
I agree with what he said, but fuck that was harsh.

>>150836199
What would you expect by showing an old fashioned traditional man something that looks fucking stupid and gross looking and talk how machines will replace men.

Didn't we already have this thread multiple times? It's just another excuse for retards to shit on CGI, AI, and 2D. Theoretically CGI can make any image imaginable, if it isn't good enough the animators simply aren't trying. AI is also another technology with infinite potential, something that could surpass humanity vastly not just in ability but also creativity. Could the first plane go 3 times the speed of sound or carry thousands of people? No, it was a shitty wooden box with cloth draped around it that could get itself for barely 12 seconds. Some people wouldn't even consider that flight. Did that stop them from making the massive skyships we have today and even going to space? Fuck no. Have faith in human ingenuity. What looks weak, frail, and useless today, will be more powerful than anything we could ever imagine in the future. And remember, a dedicated artist would make a good series no matter what tools, and a shitty artist would still make a shitty series with 2D hand drawn animation. CGI simply gives people more freedom and make sit so that many more people can try their hand at making things. Many more shitty series will be made, but the good series can be even better than the best 2D hand drawn series.

>>150836199
>I feel like we are nearing to the end of times
Same shit. That's why AI is needed. Humanity is degenerating unfortunately.

>>150836835

Then you check the archives, the board is not your fucking facebook feed you humongous newshit

/a/ now likes cg because Miyazaki hates it.

>>150836850
to be human is to be more than human, technology IS our tradition.

>>150836921

Pixar pls go

>>150836921
absolutely. but technology is a tool.

previous tools, so like your example, a plane, was made with the intention of enabling man to fly anywhere in the world very quickly and advance our quality of life.

what you're seeing now with technology, robotics, and AI is talk not about enhancing human quality of life, but either "just because," or on an even more extreme viewpoint to actually replace humanity.

miyazaki is disgusted because this strange cgi doesn't advance our quality of life. it doesn't tell a story that increases our human empathy for one another, or inspire creativity, or even have anyone cynically advocating for some positive quality it carries with it.

it's trash

Did none of you faggots actually watch the video? The body was failing around like some stupid Fallout 4 ragdoll. It was actually disgusting.

His anecdote about his friend was odd and out of place, but CG and trying to have robots create art in place of humans is disgusting.

John Lasseter is the worst thing to ever happen to animation.

>>150837055
This.

Why didn't they showed him a cute 2d loli instead.

>>150837055
Yeah, no. I agree it looks like shit. As >>150836921
said though it is a prototype and you shouldn't be praising it but you shouldn't be shitting on it either. It's like "huh, okay keep it up and maybe I'll start caring".

>>150837055
Did YOU watch? It is intentionally made disgusting for zombie videogame.

>>150836850
Humanity has become a tool bases race for a long time. We're at a point where even if something like the earth flooded, we wouldn't evolve. We would just use tools to survive. Technology is part of being human.

>>150836199
Hideo Kojima warned about this

Look at Silcon Valley now, everyone wants to implement the most cutting edge AI to replace almost everything from sales, art, finance, medicine, etc etc. This in turn decreases the population count dramatically, transfers current corrupt government structures of one with bold and unapologetic power that of a dystopian fiction novel, and everyone as a result becoming easier to control while folks at the top become emperors

This isn't good no matter how much you try to meme this as a good thing.

>>150837189
Sounds like my kind of world.

>over 60
>relevant
stay home, jii-san

>>150836349
I live in constant pain and suffer from multiple health issues which can cause severe disabilities and even I'm not that bitter.

>>150836850
Okay, but what if I just want to have a really powerful body without fusing with anybody elses brain? Am I still bad? I don't want to fuse minds with anybody else, but I don't care to cling to the short sighted ideals of my ancestors either. And for the people who do wish to fuse with others, do they not have the right to do so simply because that wasn't the original plan? It is not for others to say what I may do with my life, only what they want to do with theirs. You want to uphold the traditions and morals of your ancestors? Good for you, I'm glad you enjoy them and them worthwhile. But you shouldn't force them onto others.

I don't think people have a duty to live their lives the way their creators wanted simply because they made them. You can't force people to exist and then also expect them to be exactly what you want. I believe people are only responsible for those things they themselves choose responsibility over. I am responsible for the things I do only, not those actions of my parents. I did not choose to do the things they did, or love the things they did. They chose to, and that is their responsibility and duty. Either don't complain when other people don't get something done, or do it yourself.

>>150837253
Then you're stupid.

>>150837253
Coddled Athens boy, in my time we would leave you in the mountains.

He's right you know.

>>150836850
>and now we're making these just... strange things, just because we can. it's not right.
Who are you to say what these people can/can't try to achieve? And for whatever reason?
Also, your last paragraph is nothing but slippery-slope-heavy conspiratory dellusions.
>>150837042
If that was the point, that is extremely short-sighted of him. It's the same nonsense theater and radio people said about cinema and the TV before they became mainstream.
Plus, feeling bad for his disabled friend because of uncanny movement simulated by a computer is a complete over-reaction. Even more so when it was japan and their horror movies that had a huge impact in popularizing uncanny body movements in the media.

>>150837145
No. They decided it would be used to look disgusting after it looked disgusting.

>>150837042
>miyazaki is disgusted because this strange cgi doesn't advance our quality of life. it doesn't tell a story that increases our human empathy for one another, or inspire creativity, or even have anyone cynically advocating for some positive quality it carries with it.
>it's trash
You just say that because it doesn't entertain YOU. The same things you could say about 2D animation if you're going by the logic that something which can't affect the real world in a physical way is trash. But I've seen some CGI movies, series, and short videos that I enjoyed. Toy Story, Final Fantasy Advent Children, and Many mecha series that have CGI mechs. Something isn't bad just because you didn't like it.

>>150836349
He isn't wrong though.

CG more or less killed hand drawn animation in the West, at least in the box office. There are people that have spent their entire lives learning the trade, and then these nerds come along and say "okay, you can put your pencil away granddad, Windows will take it from here".

>>150837563
I bet you still use a dumbphone.

>>150837184
we would use tools to survive/improve our quality of life. we would not create some robot that can breathe oxygen underwater 'just because we can' while letting ourselves drown

hopefully not, anyways.

>>150837189
>>150837224
if this is your kind of world you are a globalist. look at what is happening in europe. angela merkel is letting hundreds of thousands into europe because she doesnt identify with german national identity, christian culture, her white heritage... so this dilution of identity is fine with her. she can chastise from above because she is one of these 'overlords' benefiting from automation and universalism. the smoking gun of her (lack of?) ideology is her lack of children. nothing to pass on. no investment in the future

>>150837344
sure. you can do whatever you want. naturalism is a fallacy. i just think my culture, traditions, language, etc. etc. etc. all have value and these ideas are worth preservation. if you want to hit up the human instrumentality project.. go ahead, but i am going to find it disgusting. you're touching on another idea here: there's a difference between tolerance and acceptance. people must tolerate each other and indeed our legal systems dont really allow for us to do otherwise

but asking miyazaki to not shit on this, or even more ludicrously asking me to say 'hey yeah you're a furry post-female trans tetrasexual birdman identity is just a construct' is asking me to -accept- that ideology. these are two different levels of acknowledging reality and you have no right to ask for the latter

>>150837531
i was specifically going after this idea "we made this AI zombie that represents a technological advance in CGI just because we can" and not just dissing CGI in general. i enjoy cgi and i think anyone would agree toy story is a good movie..


but having said that now that you bring this up i dont think cgi will ever hold a candle to traditional animation

Okay but why the fuck do some people hate CG so much? I'm not saying that there haven't been bad uses of CG, but I really don't mind it that much. I'd prefer 2D in some cases, but in other cases I think CG does a better job. It's just fucking blind to say CG isn't a better tool to use when making over the top fight scenes.

>>150837634
/pol/ is in the house

>>150837189

Those who are powerless like me will lay back, crack open a beer, and watch lives be ruined in the process.

I hope one day to kick every one of those idiots in the balls but I doubt I'll be able to so I'm just going to watch the world destroy itself.

>>150837662
Because they're bitter hand drawn animators mad that their job is not secure anymore, it's no different from taxi drivers bitching about Uber.

>>150837662

>CG fights are better than 2D fights

What kind of fights are you referencing to make this statement, anon?

>>150837563

You fucking luddite, i bet you were the kind of person who wanted faster horses instead of automobiles.

>>150837595
>Actual art is comparable to technological advances purely for the sake of convenience and efficiency
Careful, your stupid might leak and infect someone here.

>>150837771
No you fucking retard. I just didn't want them to shoot every horse because somebody invented a horse with wheels.

>>150837042
>miyazaki is disgusted because this strange cgi doesn't advance our quality of life. it doesn't tell a story that increases our human empathy for one another, or inspire creativity, or even have anyone cynically advocating for some positive quality it carries with it.
>or inspire creativity
Unnatural movements have been a staple in japanese horror for decades. It works well because it elicits an uncanny feeling on the audience when they see something they are all (presumed) to have behave so differently and strangely. It creates a strange feeling of having something that looks really human, but is clearly not, conveyed not even just by the reactions of the characters, but by the people watching themselves.
Through that angle, as AI is still not able to perfectly simulate human thought, it is kind of a neat idea to use that incompleteness to have it take a human body and have it behave completely different.

i think a good comparison here is pick some random symphony... here let's say any one shostakovich's symphony, and compare it to john cage's 4'33"

i like both pieces of art, both are sort of historically removed, which spares me from going full /pol/ in here.

4'33" is clever. it doesn't speak to the human soul, but it brings up really interesting questions about what music is. i've always compared it to holding the function key at a computer startup and letting the OS do those self-tests to make sure everything's still ok. music 'testing' music. the best thing you could say about it is it might've inspired someone to walk away and make a piece of music that considered its questions in it


whereas with a shostakovich you can sit there for hours and admire the duplicity of praising/criticizing the soviet regime, was he secretly admitting he was gay in a song(???), its quotations of traditional russian folk songs...
i think you can see where which thing is which in this comparison. going back to 4'33" is a footnote. going back to shostakovich's symphonies is life-affirming.

but now imagine 4'33" was a gateway to replacing conductors with machine generated music that has the same impact as shostakovich? people are gonna be upset

>>150837634
> we would not create some robot that can breathe oxygen underwater 'just because we can' while letting ourselves drown
It is called research, we can't predict all the ways a new tech can be used and you're just being silly when you say we will not use it for our own benefit when it is apparent it can be used.

>if this is your kind of world you are a globalist
I agree with you on the problems you identify there but I don't think going back to traditionalism is the solution. We should keep moving forward, just in a slightly different direction. Instead of global hegemony we need global federalism with strong and diverse individual states free to govern themselves as they see fit.

> i just think my culture, traditions, language, etc. etc. etc. all have value and these ideas are worth preservation
Certainly progress and conservatism are both necessary. We try new things and we keep the things that work, but sometimes we try something that works better than the old thing that also works so we replace it. Not to go full /pol/ but obviously we shouldn't replace western culture with islamic culture, but we should keep improving western culture.

>>150837189
The world will stop revolving around Silicon Valley long before that happens, VC money isn't going to exist forever.

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>watch your creative medium be completely taken over by otakus and waifufags
>the actual substance of storytelling and compelling characters is replaced with lolicon waifufaggotry and "male" Kpop star protagonists
>get completely triggered when you get lumped in with this garbage
>realize the the industry will never change so long as otaku culture remains in japan
>Recent headline: Otaku NEET virgins are causing the population of japan to go into freefall, they just want to fap to waifus and play dating sims
>develop a strong hatred of younger people over time, since they are now all indoctrinated into this garbage via popular japanese culture
>become very vocal about how japanese people have lost their ability to wonder and dream, and dedicate the rest of your career to setting an example of what actual animation and storytelling is supposed to be
>animewasamistake.mov
>some college students who idolize you invite you to see their new innovative project in animation
>go in with low expectations
>be shown them fucking around with the neural network and not producing anything worthwhile
>chew them out for wasting everyone's time
>"we want to teach a computer to draw like a human"
>be completely horrified at the fact that these kids want to mass-produce your art with computers
>assume they will program them to pander to waifufag otakus for that sweet, sweet yen profit
>realize you are staring into the abyss while these dipshit college students are wondering why you're being so mean
>storm the fuck out never looking back, and resume your mission to save animation
He is truly the hero Japan needs.

>>150837634
>but asking miyazaki to not shit on this, or even more ludicrously asking me to say 'hey yeah you're a furry post-female trans tetrasexual birdman identity is just a construct' is asking me to -accept- that ideology. these are two different levels of acknowledging reality and you have no right to ask for the latter
Yes, and I wouldn't ask you to. I think speech isn't free enough as it is, I wish for total freedom of speech. But at the same time you have no right to ask that I not become whatever the fuck that is you just said.

I myself find collective consciousness distasteful, what I want is a body that is vastly improved. I would see no point in existence if I was not my own free mind. But I wouldn't stop people from becoming a collective consciousness. I also can't understand why someone would be overly bothered because of how someone else chose to live their life. Unless they are using physical force to make me join them, I don't really care enough about it to be upset by it. I'm not saying you don't have the right to dislike it, don't get me wrong, but I'd like to know why you dislike it so much. You value your own freedom, do you not think they deserve theirs? Just wondering, because /pol/ and other people similar to them, including many liberals, seem to really hate people who are different from them.

>>150837810

Then don't support CG, in doing so you're creating a market for alternatives. Doesn't mean everyone else is obliged to be as anal retentive as you are.

CG will eventually look the same or even better than hand drawn animation.

>>150837995
Fuck off you fucking naive child. The market is determined by the producers and everybody fucking knows it. People will buy whatever gets the most exposure not whatever is best.

>>150837910
>VC money isn't going to exist forever

Not anon you mentioned. Why is that?

I can't see that as long as Silicon Valley continues providing technology. VC will continue to try to fund them as the potential of profits can be skyrocket. Until Silicon Valley doesn't bring any sort of confidence to any investor then nothing is stopping them.

>>150838115
Fact.

>>150838133

>everybody knows it

argumentum ad populum

>>150837891
i don't disagree with anything you've said, actually. i just try to argue for where i think miyazaki came from with his statement it's disgusting.

i personally think, for example, everyone involved in transformers movies should be round up and shot and killed without a trial. these movies are ridiculously expensive and impart absolutely no social value.

i believe in free speech and hate censorship but my exception that proves the rule is that i think someone in the us government should be answerable that so much money can be spent in the name of something like that and impart no value whatsoever. i realize i am basically advocating for a ministry of propaganda and countering my own belief but i cant think of any other answer on how to draw a line on the millions of billions of dollars - and even more critically, time - spent making these films. at the same time, the money and time watching them. you have a de facto captive movie audience and you're not telling them anything. you're not trying to. you're just making undrawable robots blow shit up and make bathroom jokes. someone should be shot.

at the same time i am for spending money to go to the moon / go to mars because i do think the offshoot technological advances are critical. also a nihilistic belief the planet is fucked and rather than spend money on carbon taxes and electric cars let's start on a plan b to get a move off this rock

i'm getting away from animation now though.

i personally believe machine generated animation is inferior to hand drawn animation. i can list off myriad benefits of AI and machine animation but these guys give themselves away when they say "no reason"/"just because." when miyazaki accuses them of losing faith in humanity he is dead-on

>>150838115
>eventually
When? Do we kill off hand-drawn animation now or we'll wait a couple of months?

>>150838178
That's not what an argumentum ad populum is you buzzword parroting shit. If I had said "this is this because everybody says so" it would have been a different story. I'm done talking to you, fucking pseudo-intellectual.

>>150836199
This is the fourth thread, you fucking mong
http://desuarchive.org/a/search/text/ngZ0K3lWKRc/type/op/

>>150838268

>i'm a petulant child with nothing else to say

>>150838115
Just like multivitamins will replace Michelin star chefs, right?

>>150838287
I found 3 in the archive and couldn't find the one I posted in, so this is at the very least the 5th.

>>150838306
>food analogy

>>150838207
>i personally think, for example, everyone involved in transformers movies should be round up and shot and killed without a trial. these movies are ridiculously expensive and impart absolutely no social value.
You sound like some kind of collectivist commie. If I have the resources to make something, and I want to make it, fuck you I'm going to make it.

>>150836754
This, holy shit, why are you showing this to Miyazaki? You had to see this coming. Have you ever even seen what Miyazaki makes? What posessed you to do this?

For Miyazaki's part, he overreacted, true. What these kids are doing counts as a creative process just as much as what Miyazaki does, even though it's not really as good, or finely trained as his stuff. They enjoy what they're doing, and to even show it off at all demonstrates that they at least think it's pretty cool. For Miyazaki to say that it reflects badly on humankind in general or that it even threatens his kind of art at all is completely overblown. I mean, tastes differ. Understanding that is, as Miyazaki would probably agree with-- part of the fundamental human experience. I mean, any modern horror movie uses stuff like that. Some of that stuff is just as inspiring and brilliant as anything he ever put out-- the Alien movies for example.

I don't really blame Miyazaki though. He's been head of a studio for 30 years, and a creative professional for what, 20 years before that? He's used to making creative decisions day in and day out. He has a finely toned taste and has disciplined himself to assert it as strongly as possible because his projects rely on him to keep them cohesive and on schedule. His position is completely understandable.

Basically, the major failure of this video is whichever person set up this meeting. I wonder if someone intentionally set those kids up for a dressing down-- that shit apparently happens all the time in Japan.

>Miyazaki disgusted because he has a friend who is disabled.

That is just ignorant, I wonder how he feels about Silent Hill. This kind of technology could be used to tell a story that has a lot of depth and emotion and he just writes it off because it reminds him of his friend.


Cmon old man.


As for machines replacing humans there is no use complaining about that because humanity is already far gone. I wonder why we are at the "end of days" now because machines are more common in society but we werent when people had slaves, Japan murdered and raped chinese children, and America dropped two nukes on Japan.

I think Miyazaki is just another old man who hates change. I still love his work, much like I still enjoy Watchmen and The Killing Joke even thought Alan Moore is fucking insufferable.

Is this the new shitposting general?

>>150838344
like i said, it's my exception that proves the rule. i dont care how much i advocate for free speech and liberty, i cannot justify the time and money spent on those films.

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>>150836850
> the tendency to throw ourselves at these things is just bizarre. and now we're making these just... strange things, just because we can. it's not right.
This thought here is, to put it bluntly, a 100% incorrect statement that goes against everything we humans are. Why do you think that Humans were the only Great Apes to survive its contemporaries like Neanderthals? Because Humans took stupid risks like sailing toward the infinite blue seas, leaving the safe hunting grounds for promises of 'maybe's. Doing things just because we can is quite literally why we're here still.
To express a refusal of this driving nature to innovate, to take roads no one has, is literally going against your own humanity.

>>150838332
That one actually applies though.

>>150838435
Sure

>>150838115
At least in the eyes of the general populace.
Chances are, we either get a generation raised in it or someone makes a huge breakthrough.
But there will always be people dissatisfied with the way the media is going mostly the old guard that will keep pushing that the new stuff has no value or could never compare to the old/current.
The same old guard that forgets that to this day, there are cinephiles in academia that don't give much thought to animation or masters of theater that don't give a thought to movies in general

What the fuck are we discussing anyway? Hayao is discontent about using AI in the animation industry, mainly because of shitty presentation, and y'all going full futurism.

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It's surprising to me how many technologically inept retards there are in this thread

Nobody makes this kind of stuff "just because they can" or to "replace" anybody.
As they said themselves they wanted to further human imagination by making a program that think differently form a normal person.
AI has SO MUCH potential and i think that's what's scary to Miyazaki, he can't comprehend what its use would be and therefor just think it's made to hurt his fefes and take over the world.

Also that whole speach he gave about his friend was such an asspull. What relevance did that have to AI somehow being able to be used in the anime industry at some point?

Shit like this legit makes me angry.

>>150836972
When stop liking what i don't like meme will stop

>>150837713

i cant wait for the next 5 yearly miyazaki retirement movies

old man should just pack it up really.

>>150838504
>>150836199

>>150838546 (You)

>>150838395
Those guys should've shown him something more thought-provoking, and not just wriggling corpse. It's like presenting the invention of the Internet with some memes from 9gag.

>>150838411
i mean i go fast on the highway because i can but that's about $80 for a full tank of gas and maybe $300 if i get pulled over

we left the hunting fields because we thought our current ones were getting crowded and someone thought the other ones were abundant as fuck

humans crossed the seas for god, queen, and country. we lost faith in the first one, overthrew the second one, and now are told it's racist to believe in the third one.

"because we can" used to be a cute way of summing up a complex set of beliefs in a few syllables. along the way it lost the complex scaffolding behind it and now it's just an empty statement that gives away our collective nihilism

>>150837055
Not to mention it triggered his memory of his friend's disease.

>>150838142
SV can't provide tech forever, eventually both investors and consumers will lose confidence as startups continue to bite off more than they can chew and never turn a profit. The big companies will stick around in order to maintain what already exists, but your average agile startup isn't going to make it.

>>150838447
Glad we're in agreement. Now let's stop pretending CGshit can in any way compare to hand drawn anime.

>>150838620
Does this friend even really exist?

>>150838644
Okay

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>>150836645
You can't lose something you never had to begin with, senpai.

>>150838678
Great, thanks anon.

>>150838596
As much as i think Miyazaki is in the wrong here this is so true.

Who in the fuck goes up to some big name company and shows a (ONE ((1))) prototye of a wiggeling corpse and expects them to be expects by it?
They didn't even fucking try

>>150838306
That is the poorest analogy I've seen in a while. You can't live off of multivitamins and they don't taste like anything.
Your analogy does prove the actual point he alluded to. There was a time when many of the foods prepared on a gourmet level today were comsumed mostly by the general populace and scowled at by the connoiseurs. Eventually, people who learned to like that taste and had fresh ideas took the art of cooking into a new direction and it became gourmet cooking.

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>>150836199
>they wanted to teach a computer how to draw
>use a sampling of failed CG walk cycles from the neural network's learning process as an example
why did they think this was a good idea

>>150837137
>you shouldn't be praising it but you shouldn't be shitting on it either.
Oh look at this participation trophy bullshit. Only thing they should be glad about is that they could salvage it for something

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>>150838710
You're welcome.

>>150838722
>expects them to be expects
Impressed*

>>150838502
I beleive that the old man just sees farther than us. With the invention of such advanced AI, all humans will eventually go "fuck it, let the AI decide for us, he's better in everything." Human creativity will just perish, because AI will handle art creating just fine.

>>150838596
This. Even a landscape generator would've been fine. But not this shit.

nigga hasn't made a good movie since the 90s

>>150836199
He is completely right.

>>150836850
Has someone made a thread on /pol/ about this? This would be extremely interesting to talk about there.

>this comfort with the supremacy of technology is sort of ingrained for us. ... for me it was this unquestionably amazing thing that symbolized pure progress.
You are absolutely right to be afraid of this line of reasoning. But what's happening there isn't that the technology itself is doing some specific thing to you, it's other people. They are using the amazing capabilities and products of technology to sell a political ideology that puts them in control. "We are the dreamers of dreams," they say, "we give you these gifts, fully-formed, and we don't want you to think too hard about what all of this means-- after all, you're a simple human! You never invented a CPU architechture, or designed a circuit did you?"

Don't eschew technology except where it encroaches way too fast on your identity as a human being. What you should do instead is work on improving yourself. Learn this stuff. Learn what computers can and can't really do. Master your own nature, and that of the tools you use. Rearrange your biology if you have to (the fact that women only have until their mid-30s to really reliably have healthy children would be the first thing I'd change, personally), but make sure, at the end of the day, you're still human. Make sure you still have love, children, fun and interpersonal relationships in your life. Make sure that this future you're building is worth living in.

We can't just throw this away because we ARE our technology, in the same way that our cells ARE us. It's an extension of our own will, and we should be the masters of it, not the other way around. Technology should not be able to have a meaningful existence without some intelligent, sapient, empathetic beings behind it.

>>150838739
It is what it is, it's not even participating really, it's still in the Rocky-esque montage sequence. People forget about the actual default position - suspending judgement. That's not a trophy of any kind.

>>150838301
Everything he said was right though.

Even the parts where he outed the holes in your arguments.

>>150838824
Stop me if you'e heard this before:
>These new radio dramas will never be art, they won't be able to display their expressions like in a play
>These new motion pictures will never be art, their rehearsed and selective line-reading will never stand up to a genuine performance
The argument you're using right now has, in some form or another, even been used against god damn books in the past.

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>>150838824
>Human creativity will just perish
People said the same shit when the car was invented.
>Oh no, nobody is gonna walk anywhere now
We are genetically made builders, people aren't just gonna stop making shit because we made other shit that handles things faster then we normaly could.
That's the whole idea, so we can get on to making more new shit

>>150836199
>all this asshurt because a geezer doesn't like a modern thing
For what reason?

>>150838728
Multivitamins and bread then.

Point is that one is a supplement that's there for cost effectiveness and convenience, while the other requires a human touch and can actually be enjoyed for its creativity, just like hand drawn vs CG.

>>150838598
That scaffolding is a set of justifications we've given ourselves as our civilization grew, justifications for our primal impulse to head to the unknown. We've sailed the seas a million times over for a million different reasons, but shouldn't that actually go to show we don't actually need any justifications to do it?
We sailed before kings or queens, before nations and perhaps even before God. From the dawn of man outwards, we've done nothing but try going on just a little further ahead, just to see what's past the horizon.
Doing things just to see what we can do is not nihilism, and saying "because we can" is just as much an excuse as is "doing it for God". It's just what we like doing, and if you wish to use the most objective morals you could, anything furthering humanity is good, and nothing drives it forward more than technology.

And if you want to take a more pragmatic approach as to why these kids shouldn't barge in on the holy grounds of creativity, well, there's a lot of practical reasons, too. The anime industry has formed a big bubble of thought, endlessly cycling the same ideas. Having a completely fresh perspective is quite simply adding new ideas into it, while lessening manpower needed to see said ideas come to bear fruit. There is literally nothing wrong with this, objectively speaking. Humoring ideas is not the same as agreeing with them, a new perspective can do nothing but offer you a new view to cement or rework your own ideas.

>>150838999
Up until this point, those things were created by a man. But when AI development will hit a certain point, the man will be no longer needed. Not only in art, but in other things too. And I'm fucking scared of that.

>>150839056
>Oh no, nobody is gonna walk anywhere now
I mean, we're slowly drigting in that direction. Those fat Americans on cartwheels and segways are already there.

>>150839168
you should be more scared that you're a NEET virgin living with your parents you fat fuck

>>150839168
We can predict this already now. Terminator movies with it's skynet came out like 30 years ago, and there were books about it way before that. I see no reason for us to not be able to stop on this supposed slippery slope at the point before catastrophy, or indeed turning in another direction like improving ourselves with AI instead of being separate and subjugated by it.

>>150839168
The man may not always be needed, but someone somewhere will always want the man.

>>150839102
>we've done nothing but try going on just a little further ahead, just to see what's past the horizon
Have you ever considered the thought that all this progress was made out of dire material need?

>>150836199
Was the presentation specifically for him, or was he just one of several people attending it?

It didn't seem like it was aimed at him at all, despite his being in the front row.

>>150839268
>I see no reason for us to not be able to stop on this supposed slippery slope at the point before catastrophy
>two world wars and two nukes
Humanity is slow to learn.

>>150839168
Note that, other than the radio, everything I mentioned still exists today in one form or another. They just had to grow different and adapt.
Ok, plays aren't as mainstream today as they were before the advent of cinema, and their structuring isn't the same, but they still exist and still boast some success. Your fear is not really founded.

>>150839226
But I'm not. NEET virgins want AI to appear and solve all their problems.

>>150839323
The second world war was caused by the result of the first, and both of the bombs were dropped at the same time. I think we did learn from it. I mean there's still lots of smaller wars so there's more to learn of course.

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>>150839276
Maybe it was in the past, just as having a fear of the dark was a really physical need first and foremost. Now that we live in perfectly safe cities and houses where there are no hungry lions in search of meals, we've out grown that necessity. And yet, our primal impulse is still here. Just because we dont 'need' to, doesn't mean we stop having the drive. And people can do amazing things harnessing drives we don't 'need' any more, to the betterment of the race.

>>150839363
When was the last time the west actually drew a cartoon?

>>150839363
Even radio exists to some extent as podcasts and youtube audio-only content. I listen to many hours of youtube while working.

As for me, I'm hoping culture changes to a point where people don't NEED so much entertainment and distraction that it can't be produced by humans.

Stories are great, but they're supposed to be enjoyed along with having a real life, not as a substitute. We are as we are now because our lives have become so bleak and disconnected that our experiences while watching this shit is for a lot of us the only thing even remotely close to happiness.

>>150839323
You do know that since the 50s technollagy has advanced at a rate of 200% and climbing right?
New shit that you have never heard about get's invented every day and so far non of it has killed us yet

How are people this paranoid?

>>150836349
fpbp

>>150839535
>>>/reddit/

>>150839504
What do you want to have in your life, so it wouldn't be as bleak? People before us didn't have much lesiure because there was no time for it. Life was fucking awful.

>>150836349
I'd be the same way if i were him. Miyazaki's MO is capturing the smaller moments of life inbetween the big ones to tell a story rather than sell it like most studios do nowadays. He also highly cherishes life, anyone whose watched his movies would realize that

Quite frankly the developer as a jackass. Might as well have tried to sell a sushi machine that makes dick shaped cuts to Jiro Ono

>>150837870
>John Cage
gtfo fucking cultural marxist

>>150839649
Well during the industrial revolution you're right-- but that was another manifestation of the same problem, namely that we are being used by corporations to squeeze as much out of us as they possibly can.

>>150839680
>Quite frankly the developer as a jackass. Might as well have tried to sell a sushi machine that makes dick shaped cuts to Jiro Ono
This may be the single greatest analogy to be written on /a/.

>>150836199
"Here's something a machine made. The machine doesn't know about pain, so it can make pretty gruesome things!"
"Who made this disgusting thing? They don't understand pain at all! How dare you insult my friend who is a spastic and my other friend who is in the hosp..."

Miyazaki is a fucking faggot. Jesus christ.

>>150839794
Pretty sure he meant even before the industrial revolution when we needed to grow and hunt our own food and build our own shelters. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you could've been more right. I'd rather live during the industrial revolution than any time before it.

>>150839495
True, podcasts and stuff are still a thing. I myself actually listen to them.
Even radio lives on in a way

>>150839794
Well, if you put it that way, the answer is quite simple - we will be used by corporations/govenments/etc. as long as there is a shortage of material goods. Mabe one day we will be truly free, but not today, and not tomorrow.

>>150839649
There's more than one historical period in history, besides, anon. Some time periods-- generally times of low population density forcing companies to compete for labor driving the value of an individual up-- were downright comfy.

We probably will never be able to create a time again where the value of any individuals abilities on the open market are high again, so we will have to find other ways to make life worth living.

I'm not *raelly* a socialist, I believe people do have to have some kind of goal, a job, something to work for in order to be happy, but the current system is just forcing more and more people to the sidelines in pursuit of profit is going to break down eventually.

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>>150839680
You would expect Miyazaki to at least have enough of that life cherishing to not tell college kids what they made made him sick to his core.

He went way overboard

>>150836199
If he's so thoroughly revolted, and the product is supposed to be a monster for a horror game, then didn't the work do its job by eliciting such emotion?

Granted, I don't know why they're bothering to show him this.

>>150837595
>If it's new, it's better, no questions asked.

And I bet you change your NSAphone every three months

>>150839981
Can you name some periods? Maybe it's just my point of view, influenced by country, upbringing and so on, but I don't think there is a period in history when people lived better then we are living now.

>>150840076
See, that's why I'm wondering if they were really aiming at other people in the audience and he just had a front-seat spot because of who he is. The video doesn't give any context about the presentation.

And the uploader is "Mahattan[sic] Project for a Nuclear-Free World".

>>150839903
>I'd rather live during the industrial revolution than any time before it.
You would definitely not say that if you knew what working conditions were like before and after.

Not saying subsistence farming wasn't miserable either. At one point in britain, it got so bad that the poorest, least capable people had to work their entire lives and follow crops around just to be able to afford to eat.

It wasn't because of a shortage of food, but because of *overpopulation*. If someone didn't want to work, just kick them off the production line and find somebody else. People would only stop working when you didn't pay them as much as they needed just to support themselves.

Technology is almost irrelevant to the level of human decency. It always goes back to population, and capitalists paying people the absolute minimum they possibly can. I am *NOT* anti-capitalist, btw. If we could sanely regulate them, and control our population, there'd be no problem with capitalism.

(as an aside that probably belongs more on /pol/, we have proven we in the west CAN control our reproduction. The problem is that the third world presents an easily exploitable substitute labor force that imports itself without corps having to pay for it-- except for a couple of kickbacks to congresspeople to let them in.)

Why did Miyazaki bring up his crippled friend? He knows the zombie isn't a real being right?

>>150840393
Searching for stuff to be offended by, I guess?
I mean, the zombie is supposed to move in a creepy way, they said as much.

>>150840393
Hayao is a man of a heart, not mind. He mentioned his friend because that thing was reminiscent of him in some way.

>>150840325
Oh yeah I too am not anti capitalist but not blind to it's problems, and yes I wouldn't want to be a first wave factory worker at all. What I was getting at is that your reply didn't get at the point of the post you replied to. Maybe you found a small exception when the future had worse living conditions than the past in a particular place and moment, much like any war in any period is worse than any peacetime, but his point was that overall the trend is improvement of life conditions and almost exclusively because of technology.

>>150840270
OK. Let's start.

In the rainforests of the congo, most humans only have to gather food for 3 hours per day to meet all their needs.

Egypt was able to build the pyramids because the seasonal crop cycle meant that people were left idle for half the year, while meeting all their needs, and there were off-duty farm hands getting into trouble. Not exactly an example, but it shows what was possible if social forces would have been different.

The indus river valley civilization was RIDICULOUSLY advanced. They had indoor plumbing and sewage, dense and clean urban centers with parks and recreation. These weren't limited to the top rungs of society.

Hell, in the 1950s, at the start of the baby boom, your (great grand) dad could get a job 9-5, come home to spend time with his family, and take a couple of vacations every year. The wife didn't have to work, and they could afford to have a house with a yard and a dog.

Just look at home prices and tell me we're sitting as high on the hog as you think. Sure, we have cell phones, we have angry birds and facebook, but do those things REALLY contribute to quality of life?

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>>150840551
Also understand I'm not taking into account disease, or how advanced our technology is. I'm talking about how much resources are available for everyone to meet their needs. How easy it is to build a life and reach your human goals, whatever those are.

The point is that our technology is ultimately irrelevant to our overall happiness. What really matters is social forces.

>>150836719
Can you really create something that creates art? Can it even be called art by that point?

>>150840434
When have you ever seen a zombie use its head to walk as if it was an extra foot? Most of the time zombies are still able to walk or crawl like a normal human, just slower and more creepily. If I were Hayao, I would have chewed them out more for thinking it's acceptable to use procedural generated animations in place of actually trying to make something scary and resemble a threat to their viewer. I would laugh if I saw a zombie buttwalking at me while smearing its face on the pavement; it's not scary at all.

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>>150840393
That shit was such a cop out
It was like he couldn't even come up with a good excuse to be angry at what they showed him, so he just picked something that vaguely resembles a sad constant in his life.

He just layed all that saddnes on to what they made like it was their fault his friend is a vegetable.

>>150840662
I don't see why not. I mean I even gave the example that you can create offspring that go on to create art, but if you think it is false to claim ownership over your offspring's achievements then you can consider creating an AI that creates art just equal to creating art itself but with different means since you programmed the AI to learn in that specific way rather than another.

>>150836967
No. Fuck you gonna do about it?

>>150839940
>as long as there is a shortage of material goods
That's not how this works.

In every deal, you always take as much as you can for yourself, and leave as little as possible for the others. This is considered "fair." It's what the market will bear, even if individuals won't.

Now, if we could easily produce enough food and iPads and wrist watches for everyone to have a billion of each, why would we? What does that get us? (speaking as a corporation)

We only want to give up as much as we have to. So we start low. "Will you work eight hours for a wristwatch?" "No," "How about for an iphone?" "No." "How about for two iphones and a car payment?" "Getting closer." "How about an iphone, a car payment, and rent on an apartment!" "Alright, well, I gotta live right? And there are fifteen people just like me already lined up for this job so... Sign me up!"

And yes, I understand the concept of market competition, and that having a high-paid workforce means you can sell more products, but that doesn't influence what kind of stuff gets made nearly as much as you think, especially when there are better ways to get what you want.

Money is concentrated severely in the hands of the elite, who mainly use it to buy political influence. In fact, that's the main point of money anymore-- as a proxy for political power. Even in your own hands, it's the same.

>>150840699
Ever seen an old japanese horror movie? Creepy-walking is very much a thing.
The idea of using procedural generated movements is to get movements in a way a body would never move in. Not what I'd do it, but there is some logic behind it
You obviously pick which one would make into the final game, so a buttwalking zombie wouldn't be used.

>>150840049
The guy had the machine that made a walking corpse video. Using its head as a limb.

Miyazaki didn't go overboard, he was professional if anything. Ice cold, but professional.

>>150840930
>Ever seen an old japanese horror movie?
Where they walk on all fours and their head turns upside down? Sometimes they walk on the ceiling like a bug.

Still, that's still more of a fault of the college kids when they chose those terrible examples to show to him. What the fuck were they thinking?

>>150840393
You know jokes arent real but you still wouldn't tell a nigger joke in front of President Obama

>>150836199

Why do they have a 6 year old child narrating this?

>>150841003
How is saying you are disgusted and going on a tangent about your disabled friend "cold" or "professional"?

>>150840551
>>150840618
I think I get what you're saying, but the examples you provided are not really applicable to the rest of the world. While Congolese were happily eating their banana, some Mongolians were traversing the tundra in search of food. And while your dad had a comfy 9-5 job in the 50s, mine was working his ass off on a construction site, because half of the Europe was wiped out in a war. Point is, it's a more of a matter of luck and outer factors than just social forces.

>>150836199
Yeah, him criticizing the zombie 3ds movements was fucking pathetic, shows that he is being a backward senile old coot, again.

But the thing that I agree with him was that comment in the end about the plan making robots draw and basically replace many animators. That shit fucking made me worry about anime industry's future for the first time in my life.

Yeah, Old coots, I saw digital animation as a positive progress as well as better integration and use of CGs, but they are still made and supervised by the minds and hands of humans, and they can put their imagination and creativity into their creations. But taking away that human factor and leaving all of them to a fucking robot was an OBJECTIVELY FUCKING MISTAKE.

If they want to do that, wait for humans to create robots that can rival humans in terms of sapience and consciousness, which is still nigh impossible today.

>>150836199

more like a retard

>>150841003
Nobody is saying what they showed him wasn't fucking stupid.
But he was talking to people asking if his company would help them develop it so it could maybe it get a little prettier to look at, not fucking con men trying to sell him shit.

>>150841087
Yeah, but that is because of the social stigma associated with that word.
No one compares japanese horror monsters to the physically disabled. At least I've never seen a horror movie about pale kids reciting sutras while crabwalking with crutches somehow

>>150841228
There are probably a couple of exploitation films about that.

>>150840699
>It's not scary at all
Subjective, just your opinion. There are people who can find this creepy and/or scary but it also depends on so many factors.

>>150841199
>not fucking con men trying to sell him shit
For me, it looked exactly like that, some Sean Murray shit.
>we're developing an AI that will replace the human animators!
>here's a wiggling corpse!

>>150837145
>did YOU watch?
They made it just because they could then decided they could use for it Zombie games... stupid

>>150840751
It WAS their fault dumbass.

Like I said, he may as well have tried to sell a sushi machine that made dick shaped cuts to Jiro Ono. Another example would be like trying to pitch autotune to Andrea Bocelli with a sample from Fetty Wap.

You crass, shortsighted, puerile plebian

>>150841285
The eighties were a magical time, with their "toxic avenger: the animated series" and all, but it would genuinely surprise me if there was such a horror movie

>>150841140
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. It's an interrelationship of a bunch of different things.

When populations are low, things improve, but it's not because there's more resources to go around-- it's because the bodies to man the machinery the powerful need to keep their dynasties going are rare and expensive-- they have to give up (a little) more to get what they need.

When human life is plentiful, they can give less, and life gets more miserable.

The black plague was a tremendous boon to the survivors in Europe. It introduced the concept of leisure houses, bars, playhouses to Europe because people suddenly had free time and money.

And your great great grandfather probably did have to work hard to rebuild after the wars but I have no doubt he was paid what it was worth. Unless you lived in the Weimar Republic, market forces still operated as they always do. Anyway, the 50's were fucking great in europe. You guys had a tremendous economic boom, and a thriving (and very self-centered) youth culture-- that shit doesn't happen when times are hard.

>>150841357
>replace
Never once did that word occur in this video
Stop being deluded

>>150841140
Northern latitude people actually had it surprisingly easy. Their summers are very highly productive, the native plants-- nuts and seeds, very high-fat animals-- are very energy dense. Much of their winter time was spent sitting around a hearth, carving bones and playing music, having festivals at important events.

I'm not saying it was universally easy for everybody, what I'm saying is that the world can easily produce enough for everyone, especially with our technology. My argument is that it probably won't make our lives more fulfilling because market forces dictate that we will give all our time and energy over to an economic system that... I really don't want to sound like a communist here but I'm just stating a fact... exploits us.

Not that there's anything even wrong with that, being exploited with a commensurate reward is great, it's just that over the years those rewards are getting less and less, there's less to go around (less housing, less wealth, less ability to self-determine) despite productivity being the highest it's ever been.

>>150841379
Yea what they showed him was shit.
Not like he understod what it's intended use was for.
>shortsighted
The fucking irony

>>150836199
Who is more of an crabby old coot /a/?, Miyazaki or Jodorowsky?, keep in mind that this is what Jodo has to say about the current state of cinema.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2d8fdUENMA

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>>150841130
He didn't yell and scream with outrage, he didn't flip the table or trash the conference room either. He sat there and gave his opinion with candid acerbity. I've literally seen people flip greater shit at the law firm I interned at.

>>150841199
>Here help us develop this machine which literally reduces your life's work to nothing while also helping us dig the grave of the industry you pioneered from the earliest decades and made you what you are.

>>150841228
Go to a physical therapy center, the kind where they help veterans that lost limbs, people that were in horrible accidents, elderly with horrible diseases etc. Show them that and ask them if it doesnt phase them one bit

miyazaki did nothing wrong and /a/ is as bad as those fat retards thinking this was a good idea

>>150836850
>yolk

Apparently homonyms were never your forte.

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>>150841646
He damn well understood what it was going to be used for, he was disgusted not only by lurid demo they presented to him, but also disgusted because it tarnishes and objectifies an important part of the creative process all for the sake of reducing production costs while completely disregarding the ascetic root of telling a story through said medium.

>>150837189
Sounds like China, except they're not retarded enough to try to reduce the involvement of humans in their society and economy. No wonder they're bilking us for all we're worth with complete impunity and laughing all the way to the bank.

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>>150841855
>>150842188
>being this fucking paranoid
Call me in a 500 years when we have made actual artificial intelligence

Maybe it would actually make something Miyazaki would consider art, instead of the trash his coworkers are pouring out today

>>150841855
>He didn't yell and scream with outrage, he didn't flip the table or trash the conference room either. He sat there and gave his opinion with candid acerbity. I've literally seen people flip greater shit at the law firm I interned at.
What, is anything less than that a perfectly contained and professional response to you? Your life experience doesn't make him going out of his way to find someone to be offended for acceptable.
>Go to a physical therapy center, the kind where they help veterans that lost limbs, people that were in horrible accidents, elderly with horrible diseases etc. Show them that and ask them if it doesnt phase them one bit
Appeal to emotion much? By that logic, no one can make anything visually umpleasant ever, I just need to search hard enough for someone for whom that'd be distasteful.

>>150841884
Well what do you honestly expect from these plebs? They're the same morons that find Fall season big tit & moe clone # 236856 to be considered highbrow.

>>150842294
This. The kind of A.I. we can actually make currently isn't even close to replacing men in the realm of arts.
Really, thinking machination will replace human-made art is nothing but the most boring sci-fi pitch I've ever heard

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>>150836199
>this is the eight thread this week

>>150842477
>Post-apocalyptic future where robots wear turtlenecks, wear berets and clap by snapping

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>>150842477
I don't know why people want to force the "they want to replace us" argument
It's not even what that spciffic AI was made for.
It's a completly different things they want it to do.

We do have stuff like the Deep learing AI that can make paintings, but it can only do so by getting shown what more talanted people made.
I't could only draw a simple 2 dimensional bush, like the ones people make in kindergarden, after having been shown 5000 paintings

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>>150838411
>Why do you think that Humans were the only Great Apes
A theory, don't act as if it was a fact.

>>150842707
Why did you cut the
>...to survive it's contemporaries
Part?

>>150842667
>We do have stuff like the Deep learing AI that can make paintings, but it can only do so by getting shown what more talanted people made.
Surprise surprise, that's how humans learn to draw as well.
It'll take a good while longer before it can replace the one in a million geniuses, but AI is well on it's way to reproducing the droll, uninspired commercial shit that 99% of artists are employed to do currently. Even if AI can't replicate everything a human can do in the near future they can do enough of it to put most of the industry out of work.

>>150842782
Because it's about the Great Apes part.

>>150842858
But he didn't say "humans were the only great apes", he said specifically they were the only ones to survive their contemporaries.
Unless you are taking issue with the guy calling humans "great apes", what you posted makes no sense.

>>150842803
>Everything stays the same so nothing changes the post

>>150842803
Where are you pulling this data from? This mechanicart apocalypse sounds vivid with the ammount of certainty you give your claims.
Hell, the learning process of an A.I. is not really that similar to a human's either.
What about you provide some evidence in the form of papers with A.I.s performing even close to the level of stuff you claim they are at the cusp of doing?

>>150842305
>What, is anything less than that a perfectly contained and professional response to you?
Yes, and most of the professional world will agree with that. If you''re too fragile to have your ideas and creations objected then you shouldn't even present them to those that are supposed to judge. Have you never held a real job or been chewed out by a superior?

>Appeal to emotion much? By that logic, no one can make anything visually umpleasant ever, I just need to search hard enough for someone for whom that'd be distasteful.

Well someone read the /pol sticky. No I'd call it an appeal to reality since you talk big but have no evidence to support your credibility on the matter, nevermind that shoddy black or white fallacy you call a defense. Gore and horror for its own sake is tasteless and boorish.

>>150842294
Would you consider the work an automotive factory robot does art?

>>150842976
>Unless you are taking issue with the guy calling humans "great apes"
You'd have to be more than dense to not realize this after reading my original reply.

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>>150843100
That anthology was so fucking bad, holy shit.
That's like asking if you think cars made by automotive robots really are cars because they aren't hand made

>>150842707
by Great Apes I meant both Homo Sapiens Sapiens and it's close cousins like Neanderthals. Humans are the only Great Apes who survived because they are the only ones who spread EVERYWHERE, whereas others kept to their regions and eventually were bred out or wiped out.

>>150842654
Because this is an important topic concerning /a/ dumbass. Miyazaki is basically the Walt Disney of anime that counted Roger Ebert among his fanboys. This is grave shit son

>>150843228
>Great Apes
A theory, which was the original point.

>>150843288
Sorry, I think the terminology just made things a bit confusing. Great Apes is just a term of taxonomy, a way of saying Hominidae members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
In my intent to avoid calling humans and near-humans "homos" I got a little too broad. My mistake.
And then there's your mistake. Great Apes isn't a theory, it's just a classification.

>>150843100
>No I'd call it an appeal to reality since you talk big but have no evidence to support your credibility on the matter, nevermind that shoddy black or white fallacy you call a defense. Gore and horror for its own sake is tasteless and boorish.
First of all, authority: we are both anons in a message board. I never thought I'd see someone boast or try to disqualify someone about authority somewhere I can't even tell who the guy even is.
Second of all, it isn't the "black or white" fallacy because that is precisely what you did: You tried to refute the work by choosing a group of people who could find that distasteful, without offering any evidence that would even happen. Why would a character model moving with his head irk someone in a rehab center anymore that any other person?
It isn't even that you said it was distasteful to them, more that it was the only actual argument you used.
Third, who are you to just dismiss "gore and horror for it's own sake" outright without offering any reasoning behind it?
For someone asking for evidence, you sure don't lead by example.

>>150840662
If you were showed something that you considered art and then were informed that it was created using "artificial intelligence" would it stop being art?
Does food stop being food if it's prepared by a machine?

>>150841855
In my opinion, it would have made a better demonstration a machine that creates a setting given certain parameters.

For example, you would tell the AI to draw a beachside or a forest. That would have been a much better thing to do.

>>150836199
Miyazaki-san did you escape from the asylum again?

>>150843412
Saying that humans were the only survivors of the Homo genus because of some unique inherent quality to our species is nothing but speculation.For starters we know that some of the now extinct species of humans had an equivalent (if not larger) cranial voulme and possessed tool making abilities,not to mention superior athleticism which would comein handy in a direct confrontation, so in reality our survival may have simply been the result of factors completely outside of our control.

>>150841855
>Here help us develop this machine which literally reduces your life's work to nothing while also helping us dig the grave of the industry you pioneered from the earliest decades and made you what you are
So you're arguing against automation? Literally a luddite.

>>150836850
if 10% of /pol/ could communicate intelligently like this, they might get somewhere in society.

Miyazaki is just bitter because he's irrelevant now.

>>150843828
The last paragraph was still nothing but insane conspiratory ravings though

>>150836199
Although he comes across and perhaps is bitter and resentful, I actually think he's making an extremely good point. People DON'T consider the wider, far-reaching implications of their work. If there is no immediate, observable side effect that can be directly traced to their actions, we tend to feel that we can do anything and anything we want and there is no harm from it. And that is simply not true.

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>>150843205
and you're obviously spitting verbal diarrhea since you cant offer a real rebuttal.

Boy I want you to look at this pic I've posted with this. Granted this is with a western cartoon, but back in the day that is how they came up with alot of those crazy facial expressions. And I am willing to bet my left nut that Miyazaki and many of his colleagues and predecessors in the anime industry did the exact same thing if not something similar for decades.

That is only one aspect of the human element the machine removes from the animation process. So let me rephrase it for your dull mind, provided it can comprehend it: You cant get a computer to write a bestselling novel. You can get it to print alot of it, but its going to suck because what makes a said artisitc medium good is the human element the writer puts into a book, much like the people behind a studio with an anime. That is also why something like Kimi no na wa is currently the fifth highest grossing film of all time in Japan, while most of the generic shit of this season you're watching will be consigned to the bargain bin in a couple of months; because it actually puts by far more of the human element into it to tell a story first and foremost.

>>150837061
I might be misudnerstanding something, but to me it's clear that the friend anecdote was the point. He felt especially repulsed and personally disgusted because he felt it was taking light of the disabled, like his friend. With that in mind, Miyazaki is just whining and smacking down on these people super hard for no good reason. It's really just a horrible situation for everyone involved.

>>150843603
It's dumb since what is defined as "art" is completely subjective. If I say this piece is art than it's art. Done plain and simple. The creator is irrelevant.

Look at modern "art". I refuse to call that shit art. If a robot can paint the Mona Lisa, I'd sooner call that art rather the tripe I see in museums these days.

>>150836199
CG will never not be garbage for animation he said nothing wrong. It's soulless.

>>150843935
>You cant get a computer to write a bestselling novel.

You're more wrong than you know man. We will have a best selling novel written by a machine by the end of this century.

>>150841855
>>Here help us develop this machine which literally reduces your life's work to nothing while also helping us dig the grave of the industry you pioneered from the earliest decades and made you what you are.
Good to see how little you actually think of Miyazaki's work that in your head that his life work can be anulled by... well, anything really.
Just saying, there are still people who listen to Chopin even after Waka Flocka Flame came into being. You are kinda making a mountain out of a molehill

>>150843983
There's nothing inherently wrong with CG provided it's done correctly. CG is a tool but it isn't a shortcut method like you see in anime.

It isn't soulless. Pixar films are the counterpoint to this.

>>150844003
Again, any evidence of that?
A study showing a machine doing anything somewhat similar? Statements from heavyweight scientists claiming they are moving in that direction? Anything?

>>150843964
I don't think art should ever be censored because it makes people uncomfortable. If you're animating a zombie, it should be grotesque. There problem is that from an artistic standpoint, it was shitty.

>>150836199
I'm not giving my opinion on whether or not he's wrong, I'm just annoyed that someone can't give a simple opinion without others (not just OP) spewing, "OMG SAVAGE REKT ASS-BLASTED."

Like, seriously. It's just a guy's opinion. Why do people have to make it out like he embarrassed them or that it was some sort of attack?

>>150844031
Not him, but Miyazaki's plots are usually the same, but with different characters. Some young girl in a situation against her will, with some old lady acting as a sort of antagonist with some depressing existentialist/ambiantalist bullshit being spewed on.

What makes Miyazaki famous is that his movies are damn pretty. Give him a much smaller budget and you would see those numbers dwindle.

>>150843975
Pretty much.
I do think that art could be a very useful tool for teaching artificial intelligence though.

>>150843983
But souls don't exist, anon.

>>150843983
>It's soulless.
Explain what the fuck this actually means and why your point is different from the adversaries to cinema, the radio, theater, or books.
Again, there was a time when freaking books had opposition from going mainstream.

>>150843874
>Insane

I don't think that word is appropriate, especially in this case. Identifying yourself by race is one way to look at the world. Identifying yourself by sex, or the lack of it, is another.

>muh mass producing art
Guys, did you ever think that the most believable application for a drawing machine would be simply to replace assistant animators ?
I am an assistant animator and let me tell you, it's fucking boring and repetitive, and Im in Europe so I have good working conditions. But in Japan ? They live like students, doing the same boring job day in day out. All that so that they may one day become animators.
Im not surprised almost half of them give up after their first year.

Now think about it. If they managed to develop this so that it can act as an assistant animator, that would have a lot of beneficial consequences on the industry :
-People would start out as animators, meaning probably less people giving up and thus more talents.
-Assisting work would stop being done in China/Korea/India in poor working conditions.
-Assistant animators woud stop dying from stress and overwork.
-Less cost for producing animation, wich means more time for good animation and more rentable cheap animation.
-More money also means most studios would be much more stable financially, wich means more creative freedom and better working conditions.
-Faster productions.
-Better cleaning and inbetweening work for cheap productions, since it's not done by a guy who just wants to get it done as fast as possible so that he can eat something else than cup ramen.
-Investors would be more interested in 2D animation thanks to the drop in costs.

A drawing AI is the best thing that could happen to 2D animation.

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>>150844081
https://www.sciencealert.com/a-novel-written-by-ai-passes-the-first-round-in-a-japanese-literary-competition

Yes, there are people moving specifically in that direction.

Natural language processing and computation linguistics have seen huge strides in the last decade, and that progress is only going to keep speeding up.

When I get into arguments with people who say shit like "Computers will never be able to do X!", I often get the feeling that they're only saying that because they don't WANT computers to do 'X', not because they legitimately believe it's impossible. It's fine to have the opinion that you don't want computers doing a task that has historically been seen as creative/human. But it's ignorant to say that it won't happen.

>>150844082
Ehh, I thought it had potential. It was untextured, and devoid of context. The horror video game was a good idea for that particular animation

>>150844079
>CG is just a tool
This is the stupidest fucking argument in favor of it I've ever heard. If I take a talented animator like Yutapon and give him a pencil and stack of sticky notes, a box of crayons and computer paper, cels and paint, or a digital drawing tablet, he'll make something amazing. If I give him CG software won't, because it's a fundamentally different medium that doesn't utilize any of the same skills or talent. How stupid do you have to be to think it's just another tool? There's a reason no one has favorite CG animators and styles they like, it's a fault of the medium itself. The reason people don't just accept it as another art form is that it's been encroaching on actual animation in anime, and already killed hand drawn animation in the west.

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>>150836850
I somewhat agree with your pessimism towards tech but then i see
>identity
>duty

>>150844135
I do like Miyazaki movies beyond the production value, though.
Which is why it pisses me off when the guy talks as if mechanization is just going to wipe them from the face of the earth.

>>150844232
>How stupid do you have to be to think it's just another tool?

What exactly do you think animation is man? Animation is the art of creating the illusion of movement.

A good animator understands how things MOVE, and should be a good animator in any medium.

Good artist =/= Good animator.

>>150844232
But, you dense motherfucker, if you give the CG software to newbs a higher percentage of them will reach greater heights than with a more skill and labor intensive tool like pen and paper. Yes previous skill becomes useless, that's the point, you can use the CGI software with less skill.

>>150844320
How did anything you said contradict, or even address my post at all?
>CG is still technically animation
Is that the best you could come up with?

>>150844167

This. The 'soul' argument is just garbage that liberal douche-bags spew out because they're mad that the sciences are encroaching on their fields, and developing the skills that were typically thought of as being 'unique'.

Authors use computers to aid them all the time when they write novels... is it soulless to run your book through a fucking spell check? Is it soulless to have access to an online dictionary, or have a word processor with grammar syntax checking?

>>150844351
>Openly advocating the destruction an art form in favor of mass production
Ok, you don't actually like animation, we get it.

Now show me all those talented animators who can complete with the best hand drawn animators Japan has and America had. CG is nothing new, plenty have grown learning that craft, so show it's results.

>>150844213
True enough. I wouldn't mind it if good stories were written by machines, though.
As long as there are good stories to read and all.

>>150843935
You're also misrepresenting what occurred here. They didn't say, "computer, make a zombie"; they took a physics engine, made a human model, and said, "learn to walk". The computer failed, miserably, trying to use a head as a leg. But they saw potential-- they drew inspiration from what the machine produced and made it into a zombie. And is that not exactly what the creative process is about?

>>150844429
That's whatever the opposite of ad populum fallacy is, just because a small amount of people can do something doesn't mean they do it better. Elitism I guess. No, if the product is equally as good or better then I don't care if everyone can make it or just a few. Infact I'd prefer if everyone could make it as a consumer because it'd be cheaper and more abundant. Fuck your subjective label called "art" it's a thing, a product. If you like the product you call it art, that's all it means.

>>150844373

You said that CG is a 'fundamentally different medium that doesn't utilize any of the same skills or talent'.

That's painfully, woefully wrong. If you honestly think that a talented animator couldn't make something in a CG program.

How can you not tell that that was part I was addressing? It was the most definitive thing you said.

>>150844421
>The 'soul' argument is just garbage that liberal douche-bags
Putting political definitions into it feels kinda gratuitous after we literally had /pol/ people say "A.I. artistry is bad because traditions" earlier in this very thread

>>150844529
So no examples of CG that can compete with good hand drawn? Didn't think so. We're talking about art, not manufacturing. "Easy to mass produce" is not better.

>>150844534
Did you just say that someone who composes and draws anime by hand can transfer those skills over to 3D modeling, rigging and animation? Do you have any idea how stupid that is?

>>150844548
>4chan is one person and can only have one opinion.

Come on man, just because one anon said that it's bad doesn't mean a different anon can't say it's good. That's fucking retarded and you know it.

People who majored in arts or languages should be shitting their pants right now, because the people who were smart enough to go into STEM are gonna make them fucking obsolete in the next 5 decades.

Just remember, every time you post on 4chan and solve a captcha, you're helping google teach their AI.

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>>150843935
Im not gonna refute the previous rebuttal because it was so fucking stupid.
If adhominen slinging little cunt like you can write this much text i believe you are capable of understanding why.

>That is only one aspect of the human element the machine removes from the animation process
As said before AI today can't even make basic drawings based on the knowledge they are given over 10000 examples.
So yea, we are pretty far awasy form the self imposed doomsday scenario you are talking about.

Also you keep mixing a lot of different elements together.
What you are so afraid of, the thing that you think is gonna "replace" anybody is actually what would be described as "ture artificial intelligence".
That's the point in time where we could actually make them understand the meaning of our written words and not just the data those words hold.
Thuse making them just as "real" as any human.
And you somehow mix that up with automated processes like making a fucking car to ease the production cost.

And on top of that you just contradict yourself at the end buy pulling out Kei Ai and saying
>Well it's made by people that put some heart and soul into it so it's good
But at the same time you say that there is generic shit on the market already.
I don't know if you know this but THAT GENERIC SHIT IS MADE BY PEOPLE TOO.

So seeing as you are to stupid to both be able to understand that AI at this point in time can't even make simple drawings, let alone express feeling through art, and too stupid to make a valid point for yourself im not even gonna waste my time explaing just how fucking stupid everything you say is.

Stop fucking posting

>>150844648
>So no examples of CG that can compete with good hand drawn?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsEoxr-cFg0

Also for an example of abundance, look at SFM porn. Most of it is shit but I'm very glad it exists and any dork can make them, and there is room for creativity even if you're just inputing data into a program using a mouse and keyboard.

>>150837189
>medicine
I'm a doctor myself and medicine is nothing but remembering shit. A database could do this work much more efficiently, but sadly we're not advanced enough to make people communicate with machines in an efficient way, most of the time they can't even communicate with us, and i'm not talking about physical inability to communicate, they're just too stupid to make an idea, how would a machine correctly assume what someone tries to say? It will be a great advance when we get it.

>Sales, finance
Bullshit jobs that machines should do instead, there's no reason for humans to be in those fields.

>art
Art is a hobby, not a job. Nothing will stop humans from making art, even if its trash, machines doing it doesn't even matter, perhaps it will increase the quality once we've figured out what exactly we like about art.

>This in turn decreases the population count dramatically,
Good, there's too many people here, and more people will be doing actually fulfilling jobs or occupations once everyone has their needs satisfied.

>etc 1984 bullshit
Who cares, right now i care to not being shitted on by the government because they're not satisfying my needs, they steal all the fucking money and do nothing about roads or financing stuff. If machines can satisfy those needs i couldn't care a single shit how many whores some politician's fucking, why should i even? If they want to watch me masturbate, let them watch me masturbate, if they ban masturbating, i'll play along, my life is not based on masturbation anyways. You're nothing but a delusional idealist shithead.

>>150844716
>If adhominen slinging little cunt like you

lel...

>>150844651
I claimed the opposite of what you just said, you were the one lumping together people on an entire political spectrum, I didn't even say /pol/ unqualified, I made sure to say /pol/ people.
My point is, there are stupid fucking people everywhere.

>>150844648
>Did you just say that someone who composes and draws anime by hand can transfer those skills over to 3D modeling, rigging and animation? Do you have any idea how stupid that is?

Yes. Because while the tools may differ, the understanding of lighting/movement/design/color composition/framing is all the stuff that takes a long ass time to learn. Learning to use some animation program is nothing when compared to becoming a master of visual arts.

You don't really seem to understand what 'medium' actually means. Yes, drawing stuff by hand is certainly different than drawing stuff on a computer, but learning a new medium is a relatively minute task when you compare it to mastering the fundamentals of visual arts.

I'm not saying that a master animator would be able to sit down and instantly animate something amazing, but the skills are a lot more transferable than you would seem to think.

>>150844232
>because it's a fundamentally different medium that doesn't utilize any of the same skills or talent
In the same way that smearing something on a surface is fundamentally different from gouging away at a solid block.
>There's a reason no one has favorite CG animators and styles they like, it's a fault of the medium itself
Because for CG to look good, you need a shit load of budget. Individual artists don't have that kind of budget; companies do, and when you make something on such a grand scale, you have entire teams of people working on it. As for style, people do, in fact, like the way shit like Disney or Dreamworks looks.

>>150844648
Here, have some MMD art (NSFW) mass produced by individuals for free:
http://ecchi.iwara.tv/videos/dggjktgnws7jdm9y

>>150844745
Movements are still jerky and it favors motion for the sake of motion over deliberate stylish movement. They also lack any sense of weight, and the slow motion during her introduction was horrible.

Since you posted Khara, go watch EoE and pay attention to Asuka's big fight. That's what animation with talent behind it looks like.

>>150844820
Scene composition isn't something you just transfer over between mediums. Figuring out lighting in a shot in a movie shot on film is fundamentally different than drawing it which is also fundamentally different than producing it via CG. The extent to which you look down on technical skills and the talent and hard work it takes to actually draw is amazing. Do you honestly think that a CG animator could sit down and practice drawing for a few months and then draw at the level of a hand drawn animator?

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>>150836199

>>150837042
I think miyazaki thinks somewhere along those lines, but not for the quality of life part.
>it doesn't tell a story that increases our human empathy for one another, or inspire creativity, or even have anyone cynically advocating for some positive quality it carries with it.

This emotional expression is what he worries about. An ai can't replicate the emotional side of art, and he's irritated at how the people developing the ai can't understand that and the true quality of art. Miyazaki fully believes in the use of art to embody an emotional message, and this line of thinking presented to him disgusts him, showing him that the path of the future defies that emotional piece and the importance of it.
I stand by him there, but if people can keep mechanical wonder and emotional wonder separate, I think the amazement of both is justifed. But, seeing how things are, art made mechanically may just be appreciated in the same manner as a human painting.

>>150845138
The problem I have with your posts is you venerate hard work, while I prefer working smart not hard. Why do you think the difficulty is relevant to the quality of the end product? I think it's better if it didn't a lot of talent and hard work to get the same result.

>>150836199
Great.
Now tumblr will have another meme to spam to death whenever a slightly unusual anime comes out

>>150837771

The problem here is not the style (3D, 2D, Hand drawn, Stop-motion) it's the fact that they want the computer to animate for them, and when you make a machine do something that's not "mechanic" then it will become a possible danger for our civilization, it's not just CG we're talking about here, if there comes a point where machines need no human input at all to create art...then... what will machines do for us in the future?

A line should be drawn with these things and it's a bit blurry, say, something like printing multiple copies of books at once is better than having a thousand humans transcribing the text, and, while it's more unique that way, the people would be better off creating their own content and art and let a machine just copy it.

But if it's the machine that does the creative part (write books entirely) then, I fear something shitty would happen, maybe depression or having us (humans) lose that which make us unique.

Miyazaki stated it well "If you want to creaty something creepy, go ahead and do it, don't let the machine do it for you since as a human, you're creative by nature"

And while programming this thing is of course, creative, it's purpose is to create things "people would have never imagined", making the assumption that humans can't even think for themselves and create.

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>>150843596
>First of all, authority: we are both anons in a message board. I never thought I'd see someone boast or try to disqualify someone about authority somewhere I can't even tell who the guy even is.
You have tried to discredit it just the same, it is your obligation to bring your own evidence/experience foward if you want to attempt to trump my own. Call it ad hominem for pointing out the All or Nothing inconsistency of your Black & White fallacy, but everything else youve stated since can easily be pigenholed into tu quoque. For someone that talks big with so many criticisms you sure have very little to back it up with.

But let me elaborate since you're so eager to change pace with this.....social-symbolic metathought charades? Its gotten so deep I dont even know what to call it but I know what it is. Anyways the way the character model would cause greater distress more to lets say a parapeligic from an accident is because of the psychosomatic nature of the movement and the memory of their trauma. In layman's terms PTSD. Normal people aren't going to be as sensitive to it because most have never experienced the horrors they have.

Finally I dismiss it gore and violence as such because its supposed to be a tool in the story; not the overarching wholeness of it while also being used to cover the story's gaping plotholes. Case and point is High School of the Dead compared to say I am a Hero (Japanese Walking Dead). One actually explores human nature and morality while the other is just Generic manga TnA : Zombie Apocalypse Edition. SnK is kinda 50/50 IMO because although it does attract the lowbrow crowd for self evident reasons, it also does raise some similar socio-philosophical questions about human nature and politics with its underlying themes (but thats a matter of subjective interpretation)

>>150845138
>The extent to which you look down on technical skills and the talent and hard work it takes to actually draw is amazing.

Man, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said I don't respect the work that people who draw do.

I'm obviously never going to convince you to change your mind. You have a pretty specific opinion about this.

>>150845246
Sigh, I bet you believe free will exists too. Humans aren't unique, we're meat robots. If that makes you depressed it's only because you thought otherwise before. If we stopped lying to people that we have "souls" we wouldn't get depressed when we find out we don't.

>>150845205
Because the result isn't even close to being the same? You seem to like mass produced garbage. If bright moving colors and sound are all it takes for you to enjoy animation, then you don't really have any place taking about art.

>>150845331
You just fucking said it's not that hard to get good at those things. How is quoting you putting words in your mouth?

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>>150836199
>That face on the guy
Jesus, Miyazaki is just an asshole.
Nothing worse than an old man who has been jerked off his whole life.
I can't imagine he didn't get shit from his elders wanting to be an animator in the 1900s

Instead of learning from that and having empathy, he spergs out like a literal tumblr user because "triggers my PTSD of my disabled friend"

>>150837910
Just saying, there are other machine learning/AI based startups outside of SV.

>>150836199
>This dude probably idolized Miyazaki
>This dude probably put blood and sweat into his work that he thought was going to be special and revolutionary
>Gets absolutely fucking shit on
>That reaction

>>150839363

The thing is, look at it this way, back then, there were less forms of media than today, so, since movies and music (In the form of discs, casettes, you name it) of course come along, but all that shit STILL has human input except for the method of distribution.

But when A.I. starts to take over humans EVEN in art, then... humanity will just start to preffer the A.I. since it's better in every way, and this could hurt society as a whole in the future, killing off creativity once and for all.

>Need to make a big budget film like star wars?
Now you don't even need to thing about doing it since a computer will not DO it for you but do it INSTEAD of you, so you will not be needed in the least.

Probbly you won't even be around when this happens, hell, it could take a couple of centuries (or maybe less), but it will come.

Skynet and shit liek that it's not what we should be afraid of, but this...

>>150845406
>Because the result isn't even close to being the same?
Says you, what I've shown is better than most of anime as far as I can tell. I didn't intend to show you THE BEST nor to beat THE BEST drawn. It's probably something I've yet to see.
>You seem to like mass produced garbage.
Yes, it is good to enjoy things in my opinion. You seem to prefer to have very few things to like. I really wouldn't want to trade places.

It's because of people like Miyazaki why Japan is still behind the times. It's because of countries like this America can be so powerful. Because America isn't afraid of innovation and potential of human intelligence.

>>150843804
It isnt a ludditical fallacy because its arguing against people trying to pass off a database using program as an AI that could successfully pass a Turing test and be an indiscernable substitute for the human element. AKA aesthetics not economics; machines can only operate within certain parameters based on the the breadth of the extent of their programming and the size of their database from which the programming draws from.

>>150845608
and look at where merica is compared to japan.

>>150838824
As if AI government wouldn't be better idea than using humans. How's shit working with all these crazy dictators? AI doesn't feel and doesn't feel hunger for power. AI government would be extremely objective and that would be for the best.

>>150845617
>machines can only operate within certain parameters based on the the breadth of the extent of their programming and the size of their database from which the programming draws from.
Same goes for humans, we just interact with our database in more complex ways - it's not even a larger database.

>>150841518

You need to be an idiot to think that wasn't the final intention, or at least, what will probably happen in the future with this.

Imagine you're a fucking carpetner, of course having tools if fucking great, they help, and you love coming up with new designs and crafting the shit you want.

But then, a machines that does the creative work for you comes along, you're fucked, and if computers or machines entirely replace humanity, then... what will become of us? what will we do for the rest of our possibly immortal lives by that point?

>>150845656
You mean still ahead of China unlike Japan that was overtaken by them years ago?

>>150845656
A superpower? A country that is not going to die because of population decline?

>>150845673
>what will become of us? what will we do for the rest of our possibly immortal lives by that point?
What do you do in your free time? The same, but you'll only have free time. Nobody's gonna stop you from building tables, they'll just be shit compared to the ones made professionally by AI.

>AI can create art
>Best case scenario, we get some interesting shit that people never could have thought up of
>Worse case scenario its all garbage and we just ignore it like we ignore garbage now

What's the issue?
Don't tell me some retards think robots will get like a monopoly on art, right?

>>150845673
>But then, a machines that does the creative work for you comes along, you're fucked, and if computers or machines entirely replace humanity, then... what will become of us?
People like this probably were against laundry machines, cars and telephones as well because they can't keep up with the development. These machines are made to help humanity, it's your responsibility how you use your free time. You can use it on video games, family or education, for example.

The only questionable technology is the one used in war, such as drones or nuclear weapons. But even nuclear weapons kind of guarantee world peace.

Poor Miyazaki

He tried to make anime art, but it became nothing but degenerate material for the lowliest of human scum, the Japanese NEETs jacking off to their manufactored waifus which were nothing but a crapshoot of trying to throw the most pandering elements and fetishes upon singular characters in some sort of forced evolution.

While fictional characters evolve into mary sues, what state does it leave the people who enjoy this garbage? The end up staying at home, being hedonistic NEETs with sad pathetic lives leeching off their parents well beyond the acceptable age. They eat nothing but hot pockets/instant noodles, sit in their rooms all day, and then constantly make demands of their family despite never getting any of the chores done.

I used to like anime, but now... I've changed.
I'm an otaku no more.

I have no doubt that if someone said this to a young Miyazaki he would brush it off and call the guy a baby.

>>150845673
If machines come and replace 99% of jobs, guess what?
No one has to work anymore
We can just do whatever the fuck we want forever

Depends how good the CG is.

Shit like Moana is dope as fuck but I do prefer 2D. Disney wanted princess and the frog to fail so hard.

>>150845334

Not exactly depressed as much as worried, souls or not (I don't think we really have an ACTUAL soul) we're all different in one way or another, for someone else to be exactly the way you are down to your last atom and way of thinking...it would have to be nearly impossible.

I think humanity will face something they have never faced before, or at least in that magnitude, we must draw a goddamn line with A.I. as early as we can, even Stephen Hawking warned us about this shit.

>>150845571
>That scene
>Good
Like I said, you have no standards and like seeing colors move. I still don't understand why you decided to enter a thread about art and animation.

>>150845888
Stephen Hawking is saying lots of dumb shit nowadays. Aliens will destroy us, AI will destroy us... He probably just hates life and wants to die.

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>>150836199
>Trump meets Miyazaki and does an impression of a disabled guy
What would Miyazaki do?

>>150845834

>implying you're not just going straight to the work camps

Technology is never used optimally in capitalist societies. Ever work at a WcDonalds, kid? They're using ancient equipment because upgrading costs money. It doesn't matter how much better the equipment is, ancient tech is used because it works and cheap labor makes up the difference, and cheap labor is easier to get now more than ever. Why update the equipment when you can just replace the cost with dozens of workers in their place?

>>150845928
Cry no doubt
or make a movie about a strawman Trump

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>>150836199

>IAs make humans animators obsolete, someday future animes are made of IAs, same that iphones are made by robotic arms and Uber with driverless cars
>Shirobako 2 is about engineers making IAs for making animes

>>150845913
Actually it was posted in another thread and it was the first thing that I could find with minimal effort (tab was literally already open), but yes I thought it was good. I'm not gonna fucking waste my time and effort just because you said so. How about you show me some drawn animation that you think is the pinnacle so I can shit on your taste?

>>150844716
Again you misconstrue, the difference that seperates the machine-AI spectrum and the human element is that past a somewhat broadly determined border (turing test) the human element constitutes what defines a being with its own free thinking consciousness and a behemothic mass of programs.

And I dont contradict myself. Kei Ai is successful because the human element the writers and the rest of the production team put into weaving the plot involves by far more human element to be invested in the process to create something and generate thoughts far beyond the slimmed down "Boy meets girl due to freaky situation" trope.

The generic shit on the other hand follows a near carbon copy of a similar motley mess of tropes that have already been done in previous seasons with little to no original change. Copying and modifying to that degree involves little to no human elelment. Its why alot more monotonus processes are automated by machines nowadays.

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>>150845834

>If machines come and replace 99% of jobs, guess what?

My two cents:

1) Government force millions of people live in gulags with zero technology, things are made by human hands, meanwhile The 1% live in the fucking Elysium

2) Universal Income exist and human are the fat people of Wall-e with robot slaves

>>150845834
>>150845796
>>150845739

In terms of laundry and shit like that, it was different since they were kind of "mechanical" activities, probably most people doing it weren't even enjoying it in the first place, but with art it's something entirely different, art is not only a way of expression but also a way to leave our mark and a way for people to make for a living, they enjoy making art in one way or another, so, if I made a cool as fuck table, I could do it but... why? No one would need it, no one would look at it, I could express myself in that table but... to whom?

The most likely scenario IMO would be an actual Matrix of sorts, were we could connect ourselves and do whatever the fuck we want for eternity while machines handle the real world, but... is that good for us? No way to know until we get there, but that would certainly change the way our society operates in a drastic way.

>>150836199
why did they invite him anyway?
it's like they were asking to get btfo.

>>150845796

>You can use it for family or education

But why? Since any other form of A.I. would certainly do a better job than you, will actual families even exist if we get to that point? Why would you need them for? Love? A machine could replicate that but even better, maybe it's not a bad thing but it is certainly unnerving to think about it as of today.

>>150845334
Even by your definition of meat robots theres still a threshold for AI/machines reaching to our capacity (or lesser if you also include animals). Kinda like why lesser animals such as dogs or some fish can dream but we dont know if machines can. Its a lot of nero-psychological mumbo jumbo)
OK guys its like almost 2 by me and my head is starting to kill me. Been fun debating astetics and philosophy with you on this little mongolian throat singing board of ours.

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>>150846178
Nah machines won't replace need for human contact in long time except for socially inept NEETs who never had a chance anyway.

>>150846198
I never claimed AI will definitely reach our level of intelligence, just that we're made of atoms and reside in a mechanistic universe and magic doesn't exist. i.e. in theory AI CAN reach our intelligence, as well as other animals.

I personally despise cgi as a lazy "digital puppets" approach, vs. costly hand drawn cel art, but I still think this still seemed a setup. Everyone knows Hayao is crusty old luddite and lover of oldtime craft, nature, and rusticism. Throwing shit appropriate to animating zombies in an Xbox game in front of this guy was sure to go down like an SJW at a cross burning.

>>150845922

That's not dumb shit, anon, he's thinking about far into the future and likely scenarios considering what have we done as humans during our history.

He's not saying Aliens WILL destroy us, but that if we ever make contact, there's a good chance Aliens could use us and/or our planet for their advantage.

And yeah, A.I. could potentially destroy us, the moment the first massive learning A.I. starts to exist, it could learn faster and faster by the minute,may seem impossible now, but I assure you that 100 years ago, the thought of even a cellphone was fucking impossible.

>>150846211
This graph is so ridiculous.

Occupational Therapist was literally the first AI chat bot ever made, and modern studies show that talking with bots relieves more stress than psychologists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

Everything about that list is just fucked

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Quick to defend yourselves from change, a natural human reaction.

You're going to eat it up anyway. If not you, your kids will, if you ever have any.

Face it, humans. You're completely and utterly powerless.

We'll take it from here.

Signed,

ミクミク

Captcha: Identify the signs in these pictures. Ahahahahahaha

>>150846132
This was my thought too. Their project was interesting, but I would never think to show something like that to Miyazaki, and certainly never think to tell him that I want to make it so animation is automated. It's pretty obviously nowhere near what he'd be interested in. What idiots.

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>>150845246
There was the time when one person would spend their entire life to calculate something, that can be solved like in a one second by your mobile phone, not even as a main task. You would think that this shit alone would kill the all mathematical creativity by itself. But modern mathematics is alive as ever. Literature wouldn't die just because some program can write book in one minute. What kind of human creativity can be reduced to simple answers?! The literature of the future would be just more abstract and beyond miniscule dicisions of finding the right word in necessary scene that doesn't even matter in the end. Can you imagine writing not just book, that is fixed word by word, but the meta book that would consider who is your reader and choose the right words of your story for them? From language, level of education, personal taste and avaible time, meta book could write personal book that is based on your story for every reader?! Just thinking about all of the things that I can't read already breaks my hearth as an reader. Just thinking about all of good stories that I would never write for an every person, who is interested in my work kills me as an author every day. If any machine can do creative part and do inhuman job of delivering and personalising my story for everyone, than we would be closer to the ideal of literature that isn't limited by formality of a letters, phrases, choice of words and punctuation. It would even be more natural to how stories itself existed in older times. When freedom of language wasn't chained by limits of writing system. Books aren't the stories. The ideal of creativy isn't just to chose one medium or method of expression. The mathematic advanced beyond a basic arithmetic, literature could advance beyond basic books and arguably it does exactly that already with all kind of non-linear, interactive stories that already exist.

>>150846254
In theory theres no doubt that AI can reach our intelligence level but the question remains wether they will be capable of the more nuanced things we and other animals do. The day an AI can subconsciously dream is the day they have basically passed that threshold IMO

>>150846211

But it will come eventually if we don't do something about it, not everything will be replaced at the same time, the curiosity of humans is a double edged weapon.

>>150846295
I know exactly what he said about those topics and why, but the fact he's a physicist doesn't give him any authority on those subjects but he speaks with unwarranted certainty. Not only is he assuming that AI and aliens will act like humans, he mischaracterizes how humans behave. Humans enslaved and killed other humans; humans also freed slaves and saved human lives. Why the fuck would he only look at the negative possibilities?

>>150846398
Would be funny if we bumped into an alien civilization that went extinct to some microorganism but their civilization remains intact through automation.

>>150841884

Fuck off cancer

>>150845955
The medium is already creatively bankrupt to a point where you could replace the creators with robots and no one would bat an eyelid.

>>150846361
Ah, you're talking about "qualia" the qualitative rather than computational aspect or consciousness. It may be pretty hard to re-create it with non-biological matter, we don't know if that will be a problem, but the same principle applies - apparently it works for animals and animals aren't magic so it is possible in theory.

>>150846458

Well, with Aliens we don't really know, the possibilites are endless there.

But a machine could act like a human since well, humans will create it, it's a human dream, to replicate reality, you see it today a lot in videogames and 3D graphis for example, not saying that's bad, of course not, but it is probable.

And he looks on the negative output because there have been more negatives things to come out of the meeting of civilizations than good also.

>Humans freed slaves
But this was ONLY because humans also started slavery

>Humans saved lives
But only because those lives were in danger because of us (Unless it was some sort of disease or accident of course).

I know we have come far from that, but we have still a lot to learn, so, who's to say Aliens don't just see us as a cattle of sorts and will just sell us as slaves one day (As crazy as it sounds)? Well, we don't know, so it's better to be careful with that.

>>150846510

Would be cool and eerie as fuck.

If we reach the point where AI are able to produce art in the same manner that humans are, then that means that AI can think in the same manner a human can. And at that point, there would be no functional difference between a biological personality and a digital one; the AI would be essentially human.

This is a 2d board, ergo you punks should ditch your Xbox for a moment and show allegiance to the almighty cel (/vg/ is over that way). 3d cg in films is an awful unholy alliance of uncanny valley puppetry and Disney pabulum, foisted upon the movies as a cost reduction tool primarily. The west fucking ditched 2d for 3dcg Kool Aid, and much the pity...Pixar films look like old Atari games after a few years, while ancient films like Snow White are timeless.

Cgi is perfectly good for 2d tasks like ink and paint (tho not as nice and the real thing) and I'll give it it's due for that.

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>>150836199
Don't believe in yourselves humans.

Believe in the AI that believes in you!

>>150836199
Overrated old man yelling at a cloud.

>we humans are losing faith in ourselves

What a pretentious faggot speaking for everyone, some nips are trying to create machines that can achieve bigger things or concepts, that takes some fate in ourselves to actually try to make them.

Even if this experiment is a failure, he is in no position to act like this is an insult, considering of course he is also in his right to not want to work with it.

>>150846458
Sad men, tend to look only at sad things. Good men at least look towards good things, even if they're surrounded by the bad.

>>150846888
I think he was right to take exception to the designer's complete disregard for the apparently horrifying aspect of what they're making, as well as the wider social consequences.

>This is great! It would be great for horror movies!

This is just such a completely monetarily self-serving and narrow minded way to look at it.

Miyazaki is an 80 year old man. When he was young color photographs were hot shit. Did it not cross their minds for one second that he might be uncomfortable with this? It's interesting technology for sure, but you have to consider both the good and the bad possible aspects of what you're making for society as a whole. And gain, while his vocalization of it was not the best, he was right to take exception, I think. And I'm glad he did.

>Hurr durr he's old and old people are stupid and don't know anything

Do people really not see why it is bad to think and speak like this?

>>150846888
>Overrated
That translates as "normie" right? Face it, the Moe freaks that dominate /a/ see "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in making common ground with cgzombieshit against Hayao "anime was a mistake" Miyazaki. Shit, Miyazaki is a relic from the days when anime produced stuff with broad appeal, versus the pedobear pandering moe plague that has become an albatross.

>>150846632
Considering the options, weighing probabilities and risks, acting with caution - all fine. Yes aliens or AI MIGHT do that, but I really don't like that he doesn't even mention any possible positive outcomes. Even when our different civilizations first met there was SOME benefits for the natives, like new technologies and strategies (for the survivors, lol). Also he seems particularly influenced by particular meetings of civilizations, I'm sure there were lots of merchant caravans that made first contact that didn't kill or enslave anyone. Likewise modern scientists finding tribes in the Amazon or some shit that only wanted to study them. Really if the aliens have the technology to come to us they should not be in as dire need of resources as Christopher Columbus was, I'd really rather assume the worst case scenario is becoming test subjects and getting disected not robbed of our possessions and land (I mean why would they need the whole Earth for experimentation?).

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>>150847022
Exactly. I bet these little punks would say the same about the guy sitting across from Miyazaki here. Kurosawa? Some old bastard to these bitches. Kurosawa was a Miyazaki fan, and praised Totoro in this interview, buy hey Miyazaki is overrated no? I'd say Kurosawa's appraisal is more valid than some fag who jerks off to a moe pillow in Mom's basement, but that's just me.

>>150836199
Is this what will finally get people to stop treating him like the god of animation?

>>150847193
>>150847022
Venerating old(er) people is something I despise about eastern cultures. Wisdom does not necessarily come with age, it comes with relevant experience. A moefag in his basement just might know something an older person doesn't and in that particular instance he should hold greater authority.

>>150846993
Let's look at the absurd extreme and say hypothetically that mainstream entertainment is produced entirely by AI. Now, assuming that such AI are not sentient (and thereby possessing personalities indistinguishable from humans), will that prevent people from creating art? No, people will continue to do whatever the fuck they want to do, and assuming we're in a future where everything is conducted by AI, then we'd have even more free time to do what we want.

>>150845984
I already told you a fucking scene to watch, you shit gobbling idiot.

>>150847022
Issue is old people tend to think they're excused from having to give an argument cause they "know more than you and got life experience"

So people tend to become really bitter when old people act like this.

Miyazaki came off like a total asshole here, no one but cross-site redditors would defend him.