How much value do you put into visual direction?

>>150179923
>those were the best frames OP could nitpick from a Kyoani show

What piece of that anime was.

>>150179923
Well it's a visual medium, so it's more than a little important.

>>150179923
it reminds me of flip flappers

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Phantom sales have much better scenes to be honest.

>>150180393
webm unrelated

>>150179923
A lot. That's why I'm a fan of KyoAni, the clear industry leaders in visual direction, animation quality and single frame art quality.

>>150179923

I think it's as important as the story or music direction. Aesthetics matter more than lot of people even realize.

>>150180681
I agree, but presentation can't hold up a show alone (e.g. Phantom World)

>>150182668
Phantom World's presentation isn't anything to write home about.

>>150179923
None. I'm blind.

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>>150179923
a lot, which is why i don't care much for Kyoani's shows.
they need to be more than just pretty, there's a reason why shots of Kyonani shows are generally unmemorable

>>150179923
I wonder what it feels like to kiss a giant. You're basically just stuffing your face in a soft meaty pillow.

>>150183318
that's because there's more to their scenes that can't be captured in a single shot

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>>150179923

>OP cherry picking

I can do that too for shit shows.

>>150183318
>498KB
How did you get your webm that small?

>>150179923
Enough to know that kyoani sucks

>>150183619
shots are what stay in your mind, posting WEBMs is useless

>>150184537
the most stupid post I've seen today

>>150187007
>complaining about artificial blooming/blurring in animation
Bruv that's a fundamental and one of the key technical differences between film and animation's cinematographer.

>150187007
For a pic babbling about 'muh direction' it sure has a horrid design

>>150179923
A lot, but only if its supporting the story and plot. Otherwise its useless as fuck in an anime or movie. Might as well just watch an animation expo short.

part of the reason why I've been enjoying flip flappers is because of the sheer inventiveness of its visual design. There is a very human, organic quality to the motion, expressions and characters that really sticks to you.

>>150182427
>>150183160
>>150180393
The thing is that is not having good visual direction. This is just putting in more effort to look fluid or more digitally enhanced. It serves no prupose, there is no underlying message, its just looking flashy without any depth or worth to it. Like any transfromers movie. It might be pleasing to the eye but the visual direction is all over the place and it looks quite shitty.

>>150189366
kyoani invented visual direction, they can do whatever the want.

>>150189420
I invented Kyoani so they do what I say

>>150189420
directing visually involves actually having a direction to take. It's all visual masturbation for kyoani, nothing is achieved.

>>150189366
this
fucking why post phantom world? even hibike does visual direction better and it's yamada's weakest by far
tho it improved a bit in s2

What shows do you guys think had good vidual direction? The first to pop in my mind were Steins;Gate and Hyouka.

>>150189420
Its visually pleasing but it serves no purpose. Its just bland bombast, but not in the same way that space dandy managed to put in some value into its episodic narrative. If you want to give transformers an oscar every year for looking flashy pls do so. I and the majority of other people on the other hand think its quite mediocre and bad, just like most of what kyoani puts out. The new movie with the deaf girl does look really promising and I cant wait to see it.

>>150190095
Anything from yuasa for example. This year Mob Psycho had nice visual direction for most of its run. Flip Flappers looks amazing too, but I dont know if its just fluff(didnt watch more than 2 episodes yet).

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>>150179923
as much as I put into cinematic timing

>>150189319
sounds like a load of nonsense to me

>>150179923
As much you into OP's.

>>150192298
That's not even a word

>>150179923
>How much
And what are the units of measurement used to measure how much value it has?

>>150190095
Belladonna and the Keion movie. Nothing else compares honestly in this medium.

>>150197234
KyoAni units. 2 Yamadas = One Visual Direction

>>150183558
I want to watch this now. Should I?

>>150190319
You either didn't watch Hyouka or were too stupid to follow it.

>>150179923
>digital coloring and effects
Not even once.

>>150203324
So you don't watch post 90's anime?

>>150204357
Why would I?

>>150179923
Always secondary to the story. Everyone who watches a series because of visuals is a pleb.

Someone post that one autistic image about water, earth or some shit from hibike threads.

>>150203809
I feel like Hibike, more than Hyouka, has issues with characters that take up little screen space lacking detail and having lines that are way too thick. I guess it's probably just that it has far more crowd shots due to its nature as a show about an orchestra, but thanks to that I just can't help but think it looks disappointing as a whole, despite having some really nice looking scenes.

>>150206776
Stories in non-written media are for shallow people. Or rather, it is shallow to come to these and only/primarily appreciate something like a 'story' when there are so many different forms of expression being used and exploited that can create a unique experience.

>>150183318
People raged at this shot even though it's a masterful manipulation of artificial/artistic temporality, especially in addition to the balance economy.

>>150183318
KyoAni's usually pretty good, their shots are nice and way above average anime, but it's overall too sophisticated (nothing stands out in the crowd of all this goodness), yet it rarely have truly outstanding shots (like yours, but Anno is something else entirely). It's the irony of being too perfect.

Sure, you can reproach things to them like there is no real risk (although it's related to what I just said), but overall it's still pretty great. Haruhi is from what I can remember the most daring KyoAni.

>>150207613
Not him. I don't think so. Shallow stories in non-written media are for shallow people. Stories are abstracted and sequenced from staging, lighting, scripts/screenplay, music, etc., and thus, with a good arrangement of such elements, it would be impossible to not produce an equally good story.

>>150207950
>Haruhi is from what I can remember the most daring KyoAni.
This. LN adaptations are very daring.

>>150187007
>>150207950
KyoAni also usually lacks cinematographic meaning, or at least it's too removed/subtle for me. But that's also related to their themes, I've seen people analyzing the colors and all in Tamako (some nice things) but it's really quite random, nothing stunning like in Oshii's works. It's nice to be subtle, but it's also nice to be memorable.

>>150207613
That's a load of bullshit, do you even read books? The written word isn't purely story in the same way film isn't.

>>150208037
Meaning is drawn from interpretation, it's not something to have or lack.

>>150207980
I guess this is sarcasm, but they seem to only have made great choices, adaptation-wise. This is not the usual 1:1 adaptation that autistic people are asking for, shit like FMA:B, but this doesn't stray out too much and enhance everything with rarely mastered factors like the rhythm (Endless 8, a pain but it's daring and totally justified, but again maybe the lack of real goal/themes kills it or I don't know), direction gimmicks like removing the OP, putting the credits while the episode is playing, the way wall of text is delivered is pretty well done for once I think, and a lot of little details like that. That's a common thing in the KyoAni's adaptations that make it stand out. But when they adapt shit it's vain of course.

>>150208163
Sure

>>150208201
Are you relatively new to anime?

>>150179923
Not enough value to make me sit through this pile of garbage.

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>>150208299
No but why would you think that?

I'm relatively new to the artist's vision of cinematography and I'm not always sure though since there's a lot of subjectivity in all of this. I mean like the guy said before, I said their shots lacked strong meaning, but is there a real need for it to be "its own painting" rather than just to be a piece of an ensemble, I'll never know, I guess both are a comprehensible way to tell a story visually.

What I meant is that you can screenshot a KyoAni anime it makes nice artworks like what you can find on the booru, but to me rarely anything that I would put on the level of a classical painting, in term of research of the composition (whether it is lighting, meaning of it, the spacing, placement of the elements, things like that).

While in a Mamoru Oshii's work (again, another level entirely) a lot of the shots seems very symbolic, but it's not surreal symbolism like Shinbo's, it's grounded in reality but it has multiple layer of interpretation by ingeniously using all of the composition elements at their best (idea is key here).

So what I mean is that I think, while I think Kyoani's doing nice thing, it's formulaic and a bit bland, even if nice to watch. But I'm saying that, I'm not sure it's that important to do things like Mamoru Oshii, I mean it's just different ways to do things and slice of life stories rarely call for such sophisticated composition, even if it can do wonders sometimes.

Oh so these threads are the new way Kyoanus samefag(s) start Kyoani general threads. Was wondering why there's always one of these bait threads with the exact same OP.

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>>150208560
Is this a joke?

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>>150179923
>>150180393
>>150180591
>>150182427
>>150183160
>>150183881
>>150183965
>>150184023
>>150185477
>>150187097
>>150187568
>>150187870
>>150187921
>>150195778
>>150197070
>>150203809
>>150208560

>>150208507
It was a guess since a lot of what you considered daring is pretty widely used among LN adaptations or other "non-art" shows.

>>150208781
I don't watch much LN adaptations, but yeah good ones like Baccano!, S&W, Kino no Tabi, etc might be as good, what I meant is that KyoAni does it nicely too, and maybe have a smarter approach for some things.

>>150208831
How much experience do you have with actual cinema, by the way?

>>150208560
>In Madoka Magica, Madoka's color is pink, representing how she would love to have her pretty pink vagina rammed by massive black cocks. Homura's color is black, further strengthening their romantic connection and highlighting the underlying sexual tension in their friendship.

Look, I can do it too!

>>150208878
Not much, and I'm way more accepting of anime. I can appreciate a mediocre fun anime while I have a hard time liking mediocre movies.

Since I've been interested in cinematography I haven't watched much movies, I've never watched Ozu's but I've always liked the pillow shots in some anime, Anno's, Nichijou use a variation of it too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo9BUKyTeK8

I'm blogging but I hope this is not for naught and that it will lead to an evolution of the discussion, if not, sorry.

>>150208967
Magical girls pairing. It's always either pinkie with blackie, or orange/brunette with blackie. Bonus point if yuri.

>>150209146
That's my suggestion then, to explore the classics of world cinema. From the way you talk it seems like you really badly wanna have this discussion but are fumbling uncollected, stream of consciousness thoughts. It's a more mature art and you'll come out with a much clearer sense of what's good or bad, what you like and dislike in cinematography.

>>150209256
Not him, but cinema is a strange world. I have some experiences with theater, and people there said that cinema is totally different than drama, in contrast to what people commonly assumed. The artificial cuts and takes sounded horrible to me, almost like the eerie feeling when I read philosophical works dealing with subjects such as postmodernism, artificial society, consumerism, etc. Doesn't help that the camera gaze is frightening. It's like you get sucked into the picture, leaving you as an empty floating ghost whenever you see yourself in the picture. The same with social media except anonymous imageboards.

What do you think?

>>150209256
Thanks, true that I'm interested in the subject.

I'll need to watch a lot of it.

>>150209553
I've only ever seen crappy student plays so I can't speak to theatre. Definitely totally different, but not necessarily in the way you describe. I think good art assumes phenomenological involvement; I've been just as absorbed by a good book or song as I have a movie. I dunno what you mean by artificial cuts and takes.

>>150200557
Watched 1 episode a few years ago. Its pretty bad. Has nice visuals though. But also bland narrative, characters and direction.

>>150210584
>Its pretty bad
>But also bland narrative, characters and direction.
Elaborate.

>>150209748
>I've only ever seen crappy student plays so I can't speak to theatre.
Well uh, I only did it during my uni days, though but it wasn't shit as far as I know, as it was in the liberal arts faculty. Maybe it's actually shit, but whatever.
>I dunno what you mean by artificial cuts and takes.
I mean, in contrast to plays in which if there are more rooms for improvisations and covering up errors, cinema instead can get around there with cuts and takes. The difference is that the director is absolutely more 'authoritarian' and stricter than in plays. I even read something like Ingmar Bergman deciding everything up to the smallest details of blocking and timing in acting. That sounds like a horrible job to me, acting like that. Is one of the reasons for this is because of the camera gaze? It's not a live, non-stop performance like in plays. Instead of the eye of the spectator, it reveals something different regarding the illusions of movements captured by the gaze of the eye (camera), made up of cuts and takes. Which means that is it more personal than the spectator? I guess that's what I'm looking for, for you to comment at. Probably basic stuff for you that needs no mentioning. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word artificial because it's redundant and confusing (all art is artificial, after all).

Also, does /a/ think there should be a fundamental difference between animation and film techniques, regarding how a director should envision time and space? Like, should anime retain realistic perspective like cinema or not, etc.? I've seen this thrown like crazy on /a/ sometimes, and I feel like it's a pseudo-debate (like most things on the internet), but I might be wrong too. From my own limited knowledge of anime, it seems that animation is like the bastard child of cinema or something. I remember watching a famous but old Russian short animated film composed of crazy shapes, about an alien trying to make sense of the human world by imitating an average Ivan. The uploader claiming it's the best animation ever. While I don't know if it's the best ever, I wonder if it's still translatable to live action cinema without butchering its inherent values, because the weird shapes are substantial to the themes it has brought. However, I also remember film shots that have surrealistic influences, weird shapes and composition in it, but still retains conventional perspective, judging from its staging and placements. So, I wonder if it's true after all that it's still the same fundamentally?

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>>150211086
>>150211113
do you really expect me to read all that shit

>>150210584
>1 ep.
Judging the quality of the whole show. The visual direction is pretty great and everyone except chitanda gets great character development which is pretty realistic as well. It's honestly really famtastic

>>150211086
I'm sorry but I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say and I don't care to puzzle it out. The way you write is absurd. Go to the library and pick up a text on aesthetics, you'll learn more through that than through the apparently difficult task of conversation.

>>150208163
And neither is the oldest form of storytelling, speaking. But I think spoken and prose are the two simplest forms of conveying/consuming a story, so people who only look at the story in those cases are eh.

But looking into film, animation especially, and saying "only the story matters, everything else is for fags" reeks of having no real engagement with it.

>>150211896
I'm almost certain it's a reactionary comment directed towards the equally stupid notion of visuals / animation being inherently more important.

>>150211113
I think there exists a kind of 'soft' media specificity, which is that certain approaches to media lend themselves better to certain ideas/subjects, but I don't think there should be a hard divide. Animation using film techniques should be as accepted as live-action incorporating animation, as long as you can find a way to connect with it and say that the idea was well-conveyed.

But there is definitely value in things that try to break current trends or assumed limits of a craft, like Feherlofia, because they're attempting to advance the artform. That's where traditions are born.

>>150211987
It's a reactionary comment directed towards anything that could possibly be interpreted as someone being awed / appreciating anything related with aesthetics. It has been the same for over a decade.

The average dude watches his shows with a casual mindset and the few tools he managed to glean from high school English class. He ain't got no mind to pay for this 'cinematography' or 'visuals' bullshit

>>150211266
>>150210929
>1ep
That was just a hyperbole. I think i watched about 7 episodes, but the amount of lazy tropes and bad characters turned me off pretty quickly. It had the infamous "I dont need any friends and i am bad at school but actually i am fucking smart" stoic and bored MC( who is obviously an otaku self insert), the lazy school setting with yet another shitty club, the female airhead MC who was fucking unbearably stupid and I cant even remember the other characters cause they were so bland and boring like everything else in this show, though I did like Fukube he was interesting.

It was still the dullest thing I have ever watched. And when they did try to spice things up and go the more dramatic route, the bland characters and cutsie moe look destroyed whatever tone they wanted to create. The only thing I liked was the attempt at focussing the mysteries on the most dullest and mundane things possible. That was was a nice twist to the generic problem solving anime. But the rest of the show was subpar character- and plot-wise from what i have seen. Such a shame, because the pure animation quality was really high.

>>150211337
Are you a practitioner? What book should I read then? Do you have specific titles in mind?

>>150213636
you're wrong

>>150213657
For me, art falls under hermeneutics. Being and Time (Heidegger) and Truth and Method (Gadamer) were probably the books that influenced myself the most. There are lots of valid approaches though, and it's fun to explore different kinds of ideas.

>>150213703
Elaborate :^)
I don't agree with everything that guy says, but god do I hate how Hyouka is an infallible masterpiece in some circles.

>>150213703
Could be, but from what i have seen this show could be described with just one word. >Bland<. Its the most boring show i have ever seen mostly because of the bad characters. I dont hate them, but they are just there, like a sheet of white paper with one cliche anime trope written on it and thats all. Setting and writing is uncreative too, the only saving grace of this show are its visuals and its prodcution values but even those fail because of the cutsie moe look.

>>150213833
hyouka has much less lazy tropes than the kind of otaku self-insert anime he was hinting at and the characters aren't half bad, if not super unique. the strength of the show is in how it reveals character slowly through a consistent build-up of small incidencies and interactions, rather than punctuating every single beat with neon lights announcing to the world that "this is where development happens!"

instead it reserves that kind of stuff for major stuff like episode 11 and it's better off for it. it's a show very focused on its themes, with character relationships that tie closely into it but aren't the end goal themselves, and in that sense the directing and visuals do a pretty good job of making somewhat trodden ground feel fresh.

>>150213923
Hyouka is just too well-directed and created to be bland. this is what i said before about people overfocusing on subject at the expense of enjoying execution.

>>150213923
>cutsie moe look

Are you from reddit?

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>>150209256

What do you think of Kazuhiro Furuhashi in Hunter x Hunter 99 and Kenshin Tsuioku-hen?

>>150208037
I'll admit, I haven't really watched many kyoani shows but Hyouka had very good visual direction, imo. There were times where it was just to look pretty but it usually tied into the show's themes.

>it's a cancerous /tv/ crossboarder grid poster episode

>>150213956
And what I am saying is that, if there is no underlying message, purpose, knowledge or feeling the show wants to convey then even the best visual directing is futile. Kyoani is one of the studios most guilty of this. Koe no Katachi for example is something that i really enjoyed, cause the narrative and visual direction worked togehter and elevated each other instead of just being there to look good. Probably the best thing kyoani has put out since Full metal panic.

>>150208967
Madokas.symbolism is very blunt and honestly.means nothing half the time. That image kind of makes sense, mostly because of all the pictures of rivers/island and how prominent they are, Kumiko's apparent love for water and the water timer in the Ed. It does makes sense win one starts to think about it.

>>150214009
Why are you asking me this? Reddit adores kyoani shows every season. I dislike it.

I wish my shitty laptop could run premiere pro

>>150214158
and how is hyouka guilty of being purposeless?
>since Full metal panic
not sure if serious or not

>>150214163
Madoka is just a darker magical shows if anything. Its symbolism served its purpose. I dont think anyone was trying to be super deep there.

>>150214158
>Kyoani is one of the studios most guilty of this.
>if there is no underlying message, purpose, knowledge or feeling the show wants to convey
The only recent KyoAni shows that fit this are Phantom World and Chunibyo S2 though.

>>150214270
>how is hyouka guilty of being purposeless
Does it have a plot I am unaware of?

>>150214374
Well hibike was shit for a plethora of other reasons.

>>150214158
there is an underlying message, purpose, knowledge and feeling that hyouka wants to convey. it's really fucking blatant about it.

maybe you are just a bad watcher. you know, like people often talk about "bad reader" or "hard books". maybe hyouka's film level was just too much for you.

>>150214015
I like both of those. That's the extent of what I know about Furuhashi though. He's got a pair of films adapting an old shoujo manga next year though, I'll watch that when it comes out.

>>150213956
I don't really care if it's not as bad as the worst, but for a show a whose strengths lie in character building don't you think it ought to have better characters to match? Mayaka wasn't bad by the end, but the other three, Oreki and Chitanda especially were egregiously bad to me.
That aside, a lot of what you're praising it for sounds like mere competency, an "it's not bad so it's good" kinda thing. Have our standards fallen so low that we need to celebrate not fucking up basic character development? I'm not saying it's a bad show by any means, but I can't rationalize some of the praise I hear for it.

>>150214442
i was responding to the guy calling it the dullest laziest thing ever, not claiming it to be some misunderstood world cinema gem. competency goes a long way in terms of my point.

besides, i don't think it's merely competent overall. in some aspects it is merely competent, and those go along with and are elevated by the aspects in which it absolutely excels at. when you look at it, it paints a picture of high school life that few japanese media get at this succesfully. well-balanced, down to earth, with a little cynicism but not devoid of idealism, much like most of the teenagers growing up in them. It's in complete contrast to most shows of the same setting that either go full disney channel melodrama (euph) or full healing nostalgia cutesy (k-on and its kind)

>>150214434
It was obvious what it was trying to achieve and I am saying that it failed for the most part. Its not entertaining, its bland and it lacks any sort of narrative that could provoke thoughts. So for me this show is just a waste of time. Cant even relate or feel any emotions for these characters cause they are so poorly designed. If this is considered one of the best shows of this decade then the standards for anime sure are getting low.

>>150214587
I said its the dullest from a story/plot standpoint and laziest from a character standpoint.

>>150214653
okay, i can respect you not liking it. but your entire post boils down to "i don't like".

make arguments. point things out. use examples. develop concrete points. shortly, make your claim to be something a little meatier than your visceral reaction to the show, because it's impossible to have a half-productive discussion about that.

>>150213833
I've wikied them. Seems like it can only be applied in social sciences like anthropology. I don't really fancy historicism in art.

For some reason, when I googled shit, I got this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_1:_The_Movement_Image#Types_of_movement-image
What is your opinion on this guy? Is it gud? I couldn't make sense of any of it, but I also heard/read some good things about this Deleuze Cinema guy.

>>150214587
>when you look at it, it paints a picture of high school life that few japanese media get at this succesfully. well-balanced, down to earth, with a little cynicism but not devoid of idealism, much like most of the teenagers growing up in them.
How is that not as dull as Hibikek?

>>150214867
it just isn't, man. maybe you simply don't get it (^:

>>150214908
>using the smiley with caret nose

>>150214708
I would have to watch that shit again which i will do pretty soon just so i can make up my mind about this show. I only watched 7 episodes 3 years ago. I can only talk about the things that stirked me as really good or bad. Might have changed now that I have lowered my standards a lot.

>>150214970
if it helps, most people only turned around on the show starting from episode 12 (the festival arc). your opinion was a pretty common one at the beginning but the second half of the show changed the mind of a lot of people, and it is a show that rewards rewatching once it's finished.

Why not direct a live action if you want to make an anime that imitates live action? Are they afraid of being exposed? Oshii was able to do so, perhaps got exposed (though only a little). Why not Kyoani directors too?

>>150214587
I get what you're saying there, and I'd agree if I didn't feel that a lot of that stuff (cynicism, idealism, growing up) were buried beneath the show's shortcomings to the point of calling them strong points would be reaching.

>>150214792
You'd be surprised at how universal these things are! As for Deleuze, I've only read Difference and Repetition. He doesn't really work for me, personally, but he's absolutely a smart person and if you think his work sounds interesting then fuck yes, give him a read.

>>150215157
maybe the fact that someone like oshii got "exposed" with live action while having such masterpiece animated films in the "imitating live-action" mode just calls to the idea that animation is fundamentally different from live-action no matter how much you want to 'copy' it? (hint: it's called representation)

>>150215229
So, how about Kyoani then? Are they overrated mediocre hacks or not?

>>150215025
Okay, doesnt sound too bad and I did like the mysteries quite a bit. Might as well check it out now and fully watch it. Not much i want to watch anyways. I am also quite suprised by how calm you were even when I talked shit about your show. That confidence doesnt come from nowhere, so its likely I did miss something.

>>150215157
Animation is ontologically distinct from live action cinema. Saying stuff like it imitates live action is pretty stupid.

>>150215342
>ontologically distinct
Is what??

>>150215481
Like, the nature of their being is entirely different. Untranslatable. You can't say "why don't they just make live action," because live action is completely different.

>>150215157
>Why not Kyoani directors too?
Because their works are too medium specific to be pulled off in live action?