Why has animation gotten so much worse since the golden age

>>149585406
It's no longer hand-drawn.

>>149585406
Who is in wrong here ?

What's wrong with digital animation? It's like you people live with this nostalgia you can't leave behind. Aren't more digital works looking retro old school lately just to look cool? It's like you people complain about everything.

>>149585746
When will people stop saying stupid things like this?

>>149586496
Digital encourages lazy shortcuts. Just look at how the young digital animators like to animate and you'll see everything is so simplified and lacks attention to detail.

Pretty lame compared to what America had at the time.

>>149585406
Pokemon reference?

>>149586709
Fuck off to /co/ you moron.

>>149586709
Looks similar to Fleischer Studios works

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>>149586829
No need to be upset.

>>149586899
Do you like Fleischer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtzjOpt-vMw

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Modern day animation can look great as well.
I think nostalgia goggles need to come off.

>>149587054

dorarararararararara

>>149587171
No offence, but this webm isn't particularly amazing. Cool perspective though.

>>149587054
>See-through dress at 3:03
I thought this was a children show. This is too lewd.

>>149586611
>Digital encourages lazy shortcuts
How exactly and how do you think that would lead to artist making less detailed art?

>>149587054
They're alright, I prefer classic Disney.

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>>149587465
Watch Betty Boop. They go even further. To make this /a/ related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Language_All_My_Own

>>149587623
So do I.

>>149587366
Didn't mean it to be a showcase of the best of the best Sakuga, but it is fluid and well animated.

>>149586563
When some turbo autist goes into every thread and corrects every post that says something stupid related to anime production

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>>149585406
The faces scare me.

>>149587677
As expected, nips are major idolfags.
Funny how this was done before WW2 started, it would have never got made otherwise.

Maybe some /co/fag can explain me, but when did cartoons started being taken as child entertainment? All this old stuff looks like it could appeal to your usual adult back then.

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>>149587832

>anime before hiroshima
>anime after hiroshima

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>>149587839
Early animation films were really for all audiences back when the whole moving image thing was new. In fact, adults were possibly a bigger audience. People wanted shit to laugh (or just be entertained) at during post-ww1, the great drepression, ww2, etc. Animation being for kids really started in the 60's when TV became more widespread. By the way, if you're interested in early-ish animation, consider starting with the Silly Symphony series of shorts.

>>149588058
>silly symphonies
why start with disney shit
MGM and WB stuff are way better

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>>149588208
Don't diss on Disney, lad. That is the perfect place to start.

>>149588278
only if you're an uncultured pleb desu

>>149588278
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYEmL0d0lZE

Disney production values were way ahead of their time

>>149586563
Because it's the truth.

This is what i need to say. I miss my time. I miss everyone. animation is getting go away. 3D are shit.

>>149588301
More like the opposite. They were the truest innovators and pioneers, and put out some of the best and most important stuff ever made. No need to underrate them.

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how do we bring back cels?

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>>149588418
Me too... anon.

>>149587839
Not a /co/fag but it's not hard to see why it did if you look at the history of entertainment.

Television always was the big thing to leave your kids hooked to so the little shits would quiet down, especially so once the novelty wore off. Cartoon shorts began airing on television in their own segment shows, and their general silliness and fast pacing and action appealed to kids.

With time, they began to be seen as a "kid" thing to watch and started being made to match the audience, in contrast with live-action entertainment which, at the time, showcased more mature action and storylines which appealed more to adults.

>>149588680
>stiff, weightless animation
Why do people thing old anime had better animation?

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>>149588766
>hating based kanada
kill yourself

Cel animation doesn't inherently mean better, but you've gotta love that 80s/90s aesthetic nonetheless.

>>149588208
>>149588301
>he thinks the blatant imitations "Merrie Melodies" and "Happy Harmonies" can even come close to reaching the bar set by Disney's Silly Symphonies

A lot of great post-war stuff was made under the likes of Chuck Jones and Tex Avery, but proposing the idea that Warner Bros and MGM as a whole were even comparable to Disney in the Silly Symphonies era is laughable

>>149588680
I will personally bring back cels right now if you can explain why you can't draw the same exact thing digitally.

>>149588994
digital colors are shit

>>149588994
>no grain
>no variable line weight
>better colours
There. And any time digital tires to emulate cels the end result is inferior.

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>>149588982
No need to make it into a competition. There are a ton of really good stuff from the 30's and 40's that weren't by Disney. Warner Bros and MGM are definitely close, perhaps even better in many, many aspects.

>/a/ actually likes sully symphonies
All are completely forgettable.

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>>149588388
WHat are they drawing with then, if not their hands?

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How much do you value animation?

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>>149589476
I only care about /a/nimation desu

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>>149587677
why are american 2d women so ugly?

>>149588680
Honestly AI would be the only anwser. If we can somehow train artificial intelligence to draw and draw like the classics, animation would be god tier. Hand drawn animation can be hard, time consuming and expensive. If we can get AI to do all that I can guarantee you it'll be less expensive and less work. The writting would be a different story though.

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>>149585406
Fuck you, keep yelling at those clouds you old fart. You're more than two decades behind us. You wish you could draw half as well we do now. Even that hack Walt Disney is jealous. We're in the Golden Age of animation right now, and you have to be delusional to deny it. Get with the times already.

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>>149589476
Sometimes when I feel like shit I go through sakuga video binges.

DAICON IV always cheers me up.

>>149589944
What are you even talking about? Even if you had AIs that could draw, you couldn't get them to work on cels. Cels are simply outdated technology that will never be used again within the commercial anime industry. If you're just talking about older styles, then modern animators could draw like that, but don't because it's not what's in at the moment.

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Was Popeye the original shonen?

>>149587171
>same 11 frames repeated for 4 seconds
>any way good at all
hue.

>>149588747
and cartoons being made for television, they had to make a bunch of episodes to last for weeks, and basically crank them out.

it would be madness to spend a massive chunk of your budget on a single cartoon for television

a cartoon before a movie in the cinema just had to be completed before the film premiered.

how do i get good at animation?

>>149590616
In all seriousness: yeah, it pretty much is. Supposedly it influenced the golden-age of superheroes from the late 30's.

>>149590616
Damn that was slick.

>>149590727
Same way you get good at anything.

Study and practise.

>>149590727
Draw porn.

>>149590727
Read "The Illusion of Life" and "Animator's Survival Kit"

>>149590762
what animator am i supposed to study from though

>>149590616

gum gum rifle

>>149590830
>filename

>>149590805
You study real life first.

>>149589327
Technology.

>>149590805
Not any Japanese ones, that's for sure.

>>149590860
The only western animators worth a shit are the ones who worked on the MGM Tom & Jerry shorts though.

While we're on the subject, any pre-70's anime worth checking out? Even as a curiosity.

>>149590871
The GOAT animators are from Disney though.

>>149590897
Maybe the ones who worked on Fantasia and Pinocchio, that's about it though.

>>149590871
Wew. That's a vast underestimation of everything from the 30's and 40's.

>>149590871
>>149590917
>can't even name any artists
>thinks he knows the "only western animators worth a shit"

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>>149590616
That's not too far off actually

>>149590860
Why not?

>>149590890
Just the more popular movies. Legend of the white serpent, Horus prince of sun, ect

>>149590890
Yes

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>your argument

>>149590729
Fleischer Superman is great, by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjdnCC6n4xk

>>149590938
Considering there is no western equivalent of sakugabooru, there aren't really many western animators that are in actuality, worth a shit.
Animators like Milt Kahl and Ralph Bakshi are the only ones ever mentioned.

>>149590979
They rarely exhibit all of the fundamental 12 principles of animation. Also, Japanese character animation is weak.

>>149591014
Stop trolling

>>149591014
Sakugabooru accepts western uploads and has a variety of western animators tagged beyond the two you mentioned.

>>149591055
it's true though faggot

>>149590855
A pencil is technology. Animators have always drawn with technology.

>>149591014
you were doing well up until here

>>149591063
The western uploads in comparison to the Japanese ones are like 1:1000, there's very little on it.
I want to see more works of talented western animators than it to be regulated to YouTube compilations.

>>149591026
Japanese ideals in animation and animation production developed considerably differently than in the west; I don't think you can make a claim any stronger than "they're different"

>>149591026
>muh 12 principles
Get fucked, Disney.

>>149591115
B-but m-muh principles

>>149591014
Stop pretending like you know a damn thing because you masturbate to a Japanese gif website.

>>149591126
Go to bed Ralph

>>149591126
>>149591154
Stop, you fucking faggot.

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>>149590871
The American animation industry was damn good before the Hanna-Barbera days and the shilling toy shows of the 80's. It inspired generations of animators across the globe. Tom & Jerry alone did not account for the golden era's success.

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How do western animators even compete?

>>149591212
Not just Hanna-Berbera, but also Filmation, shitting out horribly animated tripe just to fill airspace, yet it made money because it sold toys.

>>149585406
old animation creeps me the fuck out

>>149591254
Quite easily. Have you seen most of the thread? Shorts from 80 years ago are still better than most anime from any era.

>>149591115
The best of Japanese animation is inferior to the best of its western counterpart though. The former is more expressive and full of life. Western animators animate characters like they've living people rather than mere drawings.That's what puts western animation ahead.

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Western animution so gud!

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>>149590616
More like the original 4koma adaptation.

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>>149591325
The best!

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>>149591346

>>149591325
>>149591346
>cartoons animated by Japs or Koreans

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>>149591346
>>149591325

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>>149591254
>How do western animators even compete?
By continuing to not to compete.

>>149591325
>>149591346
Both animated in Japan. not really helping your case.

The Max Fleischer Superman shorts are still some of the best animated things you'll find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjdnCC6n4xk

>>149591315
Different strokes for different folks, I admire both at the top of their game for different reasons. Two completely separate approaches, I don't see the need nor the reason to pit them against each other.

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>>149591380
I'm not really making any case. Just looking for an excuse to post some terrible animation.
Like this Jap-produced show that got outsourced to Korea for several episodes.

>>149591360
This film is absolutely bonkers and probably the best piece of western animation. It's a shame it was never completed.

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Daily reminder that western cartoons were much better when they were outsourced to Japan.

>>149591446
Fantasia is better for being an artistically-driven film that was actually completed and released.

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JAPAN ANIMUTION SO GUD!

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>>149591446
It's a little too floaty for my liking, but still good.

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>>149591550
Fixed that webm for you.

>>149591212
>>149591262
>i want to go back when televison doesn't exist and only make cartoons for movies where i have long production period and little constrains

whatever dude, i can see this is the luddites thread, half complains why we can't go back to making anime with cell animation, soon complains on 3D will come, and but you too take the cake with disregarding television.

or you want cartoons on television but have them not make any profit or something.

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>>149591613

>>149591491
>>149591564
The smoothness and play with visuals is what sells it for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HR4Junqmzg

>>149591613
>old anime was random transforming drawings

Not at all. NGE is good though.

>>149585406
still not as good as old school Fleischer tbqh.

>>149591796
Is anything?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gua71Ia7rAU

>>149591889
I watch it the entire way through every time it's posted. so cool.

goddamn cartoons were degenerate as fuck back then.

>>149591889
>no gang rape

There's one thing I like in western animation that I don't see it that much in anime and that is mouth movements while talking. In anime they look like they're just closing and opening their mouths. If you mute the they look like they're fishes trying to breathe out of the water. Whereas in western style animation, even on animals, you kinda can figure out what they're saying through the mouth movements alone. Why is this?

>>149592175
Anime rarely has the resources to spend extra drawings on lip-syncing. Anyway, what's more important in conveying life and emotion in character animation is effective posing and expressions. Accurate lip-sync is secondary.

>>149592055
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xZocdDR9WM

>>149592277
>3:27

oy vey

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>>149592496

>>149585406
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlLHZruDCAA

>>149592150
>read that as "no grape ape"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8G5gSP64D4

>all the /co/ idiots in this thread
Do you even know what board you're on?

>>149593521
You do know that /a/ can talk about /co/ stuff too

>>149593956
No you can't, read the rules idiot.

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Modern animation is better than ever.

>>149587465
Fleischer made cartoons for adults, not for children.

>>149585406
It's a common misconception among fans of American animation that the more unique frames of animation you have the better your animation is, and that it's the only thing you need to take into consideration in an animation production. So it's no wonder American animation never got anywhere near as good as anime.

>>149585746
>>149588388
Anime is hand-drawn. Try actually watching it some time.

>>149586611
Production quality in TV anime has gone up, not down, since the move to digital production.

>>149589035
Digital animation has all the same colors as cel animation. It has unlimited colors.

>>149590623
Animation loops are a completely legitimate technique.

>>149591026
>They rarely exhibit all of the fundamental 12 principles of animation.
So what? Those were just Disney's ideas on how animation should work. They are not scientific laws.

>Also, Japanese character animation is weak.
No it isn't.

>>149591315
Western animation is inferior to anime. There is more to animation than having lots of frames and having the characters emote wildly.

>>149592175
Audio is recorded after or during animation in anime, in America it's recorded before. Mouth flaps also save a little time, and with Japanese being more sound poor than English it's easier to get away with them.

>tfw will never be involved in bring 2d japanese and western animation back

>>149596578
2D Japanese animation has not gone anywhere.

>>149593225
Man, I love this one, animated by a single guy btw

>>149585406
It's pretty decent for it's time, but what makes it so much better than modern animation?

>>149590616
I could never get over how unattractive Olive Oyl is

>>149597897
/co/ thinks that the more movement and more unique drawings there are the better the animation must be.

>>149595284
>Audio is recorded after or during animation in anime
It's common for dubbing to be done based on storyboards these days given how rushed anime productions are.

>>149598557
why is anime so rushed

>>149598867
Too many shows, too few animators.

>>149598967
That's because animators are generally underpaid in Japan.

>>149599090
It's more of a problem of too many shows rather than too few animators, and there are other factors that can cause production issues too.

>>149594789
The 3d effects are so bad and clashing.

>>149599436
The effects animation is 2D though.

>>149594789
this looks like shit desu

>>149599463
Either way they look horrible.

>>149599543
I don't think so but you're entitled to your own opinion

>>149599580
It is so bad i thought you were baiting, i still do.

Well the greatest animation feat of all time will likely always be Gertie the Dinosaur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVra1mW7LU

It predates cell animation which means each scene had to be redrawn on paper in full.

>>149599634
Cels were the worst things to happen to animation. The convenient shortcuts they offered made animators lazy.

>>149585406
It hasn't. You just linked a video of jerky nigh-stop-motion shit that pales in comparison to the fluidity of today's visuals when they give a remote shit.
But they barely have to, because they can rely on flashy visuals that are simply more enrapturing than anything these prehistoric fuckboys could hope to conjure with their relative sticks and stones.
tl;dr you're a hipster

>>149599667
Cels were literally the best thing to happen to animation.

>>149599686
Give an example to back up your claim

>>149594789
>better than ever
Sure thing. Effect+effect+effect+another fucking effect != good animation.
Really, it just goes to show how they don't even try to do normal movements, as it actually takes skill, time and knowledge to do.

>>149599634
What do you mean? It's already drawn on paper and it should be easy to film straight to camera given that the short is all line art.

>>149599634
I'm not at all impressed.

>>149599698
Anything.
Literally anything current airing has scenes of flowing motion that take fat shits on OP's example, they just often care not to, or people are often dissuaded by OP's bare-bones approach more emphasizing the fundamental strengths.
Basically, those rudimentary assets that are more present than ever are coated over by layers upon layers of gloss and sheen, to the point where people mistakenly value them in archaic works in which they're inferior, because they're the central point and more easily seen.

>>149599699
The background animation isn't impressive?

>>149599744
Give an actual example

>>149599809
Not impressive enough to make a case for animation being better than ever.

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>>149599810
Just choosing one of the webms I have available at random, because that's all I need to do.
Aesthetically, mechanically, the movements and palette; it's all leagues ahead of what was available in the 30's. As is natural in a progressing medium.

>>149599809
It's fucking trash, it's like Initial D with a meal voucher added to the budget.

>>149587054

WIMPY PLEASES OLD MEN FOR HAMBURGERS

>>149599699
Are shiny effects not an avenue, as well? Is it not a medium that supports multiple strengths, from natural movements, to flashy explosions?
They're all indicative of "good".

>>149599966
No, I don't think effects like that look good, they are nothing spectacular.

>minimal details and no shading at all

You must be fucking kidding.

>>149600134
Otaking please

>>149599699
The effects need to be animated as well.

>>149600185
Yeah, but I'm not one for effects in anime.

>>149600088
The majority of the world disagrees with you, so, I guess they do.

>>149600223
You are saying anime should have no effects animation? No smoke, no debris, no fire, no explosions, no water, no particles, no sparkling lights, no nothing?

>>149599850
I'ts just a bunch of jerky ass "movement" and a bunch of effects.

>>149600984
Movement and effects are animation.

>>149601055
Doesn't mean they are good.

>>149600257
The majority of world agree with me, so, I guess they don't.

>>149600449
They might be needed, but they are certainly not spectacular.

>>149601055
Effects animation takes considerable less skill than character animation. There's a reason why noone remembers the effects animators at Disney or how the best Japanese animators are known for character animation first and foremost.

>>149601098
It's not particularly good animation, but do you even understand why he posted it?

>>149601121
>but they are certainly not spectacular.
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/4896/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/8992/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/15895/

>>149601141
I don't remember Disney even having much if anything in the way of effects animation.

What's up with all these retards suddenly denouncing effects animation?

>>149601055
And yet the effects are lame, and there is no flowing motion in that webm like he/you promised. If he called OP jerky then he's probably blind to see what he posted.

>>149601311
So does nobody understand why he posted that video? You could try reading the relevant posts.

>>149600984
>i-it's just animation I don't accept as animation!

Too bad, lad.

>>149601121
>The majority of world agree with me,

They don't. Most people aren't elitist about stone-age-level old animation that we've progressed so far beyond it's a black and white blip in the rear view mirror.

>>149601305
Pinocchio had amazing water animation, probably one of the best ever in animation.

>>149601305
To say it's better than the old days but it doesn't prove anything.
It's mediocre in everyway and out of his characteristics only mechanics is that much better and not even leagues ahead; if you balance it out with the technology available it's fucking nothing compared to OP's.

>>149601416
>if you balance it out with the technology available

By what reasonable metric can you perfectly assume the levels of improvement to available technology?
And you do so whilst discarding the notion of cost-effectiveness and the fact that I posted a fucking OP – hardly the most impressive aspect of a show.
OP's example was intended to be the pinnacle of it's time; Keijo is far from the pinnacle. It's just somewhat pretty.

>>149601305
>I don't remember Disney even having much if anything in the way of effects animation.

Can you be specific on what you mean by "effects animation"? Do you mean like lighting, dust, water, small details, etc? Start watching the Silly Symphony series. The Old Mill (1937) really helped innovated a lot of that stuff (and in general) because of the multiplane camera.

>>149601305
Do you have some rare, but very serious brain disaster?
Why are you posting random sakuga?
I've said that I'm not a fan of effects and explisions in anime, sure, so these examples won't change my opinion. But what I said looks shitty is the one post I'm replying, that Mob Psyhco full random effects webms.

>>149601305
>posting anno's animation as an example of good animation
Kill yourself.

>>149601364
He posted to prove that there is more potential now then there was in the 30's. Wow, such insight, damn. And yet even with all the colors and computer aid that thing he posted looks not much better.

From one of the posts in the chain
>Basically, those rudimentary assets that are more present than ever are coated over by layers upon layers of gloss and sheen, to the point where people mistakenly value them in archaic works in which they're inferior, because they're the central point and more easily seen.

Yeah fucking right. More present than ever? There's less and less motion in non budget scenes with the years coming. There's mostly mouthflapping followed by a few seconds of some jerks and cuts with a bunch of effects to make it flashy. Hats off to exceptions.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not the guy who said here that effects don't belong in animation. I, like you, have personal preference of how much effects should be in proportion to actual movement. It's just that he attacked the problem from a bad angle. He started accusing people of being hipsters, and claiming that modern movement takes big shits over anything old people can conjure here, but the fact is that it has nothing to do with when it is made, but how much money goes into the whole show. 1mil for a couple of minutes like back then? You bet your ass it's gonna look good. 1 mil today into half a season? Mostly budget saving effects with careful choices of where to place the good stuff.

>>149601458
By what what metric can you assume the levels of anything you said?
Then you should post the pinnacle; what you posted only makes your argument weak because it is shit.
Nothing you said was of value and proves anything about whatever the fuck you were talking about on your first post.

>>149601590
Standards have shifted. People now want flashy lights and neon battle-scenes, as opposed to perfectly realistic appendages.
That doesn't mean better or worse than the works of the 30's, it means stylistic difference. Though, if you look at how overall pleasing it is, instead of honing in on the one trait these older cartoons placed more emphasis on, that current ones don't really care about, because they're simply inefficient and laborious to employ, it's not comparable. So the statement that standards have dropped is ridiculous. They haven't dropped, they've been replaced.

>>149601687
> People now want flashy lights and neon battle-scenes
But I don't want that shit, it's become so overused that it doesn't equate to anything good.

>>149601406
>Most people aren't elitist about stone-age-level old animation that we've progressed so far beyond it's a black and white blip in the rear view mirror.
Clearly you've not spent much time among /co/ and other American animation fans. A lot of them think that animation was perfected and fully explored in the early 20th century.

>>149601416
It wasn't an example of the greatest animation he could think of, it was just some random shit that's still better than OP's animation.

But if you think modern animation couldn't possibly compare then here's some clips. Hard more: they are all from TV shows.

https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/22678
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/26073/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/16157/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/26243
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/20710/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/21307/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/22293/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/21305/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/5477/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/14715/
https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/9995/

>>149601545
>Why are you posting random sakuga?
In response to:
>>but they [effects] are certainly not spectacular.
Do YOU have a brain "disaster"?

>>149601581
So I can't post Anno's animation because NGE made you butthurt? Yeah, ok.

>>149601590
>Yeah fucking right. More present than ever? There's less and less motion in non budget scenes with the years coming. There's mostly mouthflapping followed by a few seconds of some jerks and cuts with a bunch of effects to make it flashy. Hats off to exceptions.
This is meme shit. You clearly don't even watch anime.

>>149601811
Anno was never a good animator senpai.

>>149601770
This may startle you, but what you want isn't the deciding factor of what's good.
If you want to try your hand at making a time machine to go back to the 30's so you can masturbate to Popeye, be my guest. Nobody cares about it anymore because Kill la Kill had cool bright lights, and One Punch Man had neato looking punches.

>>149601841
>NGE makes me mad so that means Anno couldn't have been a good animator
If you have access to a gun, now's the time to use it.

>>149601811
>Clearly you've not spent much time among /co/ and other American animation fans. A lot of them think that animation was perfected and fully explored in the early 20th century.

We can safely write them off as the minority. Were they not, we'd be seeing a renaissance in OP's preference.

Again, >>149591182

>>149601850
Please kill yourself for supporting the cancerous Japanese animation trend of today.

>>149601841
Oh fuck off, his animation in Honneamise is amazing. At the very least Anno is a good mecha and effects animator.

>>149601811
It definately is not better. It has no value, it's just boobs and ass on color.
>But if you think modern animation couldn't possibly compare
I never said it. You are just drawing conclusions because i disagree with the shit you spout.
I didn't see all of them but they are not even that good, it's just regular shit you see everyday.
It doesn't matter no point will ever come across your mind and you'll keep seeing what you want to see.

>>149601811
And what happens in the rest of the episodes from which you have taken those clips? Pans and mouthflapping mostly. Unless there is another budget scene in there.

>>149601924
>cancerous

In your opinion. Your minority, overwhelmed, overwritten, archaic opinion.
Animation like OP's would be an arduous slog to churn out for every moeshit one-cour. It represented the absolute apex of their capabilities, replicating it in every single work today would be a ridiculous ask.
It doesn't mean animation is worse. It means animators aren't stupid, and want to make money, instead of pandering to a handful of westerners who jerk it on /co/.

>>149601687
>>149601770
I think you guys are generalizing things a bit much. Flashy action animation has been around for a long time, remember when Kanada-style was all the rage?

>>149601850
More like nobody cares about it because it's 80 years old, and most people would rather see something that's happening right now. Not that I think there's anything wrong with liking Kill La Kill or One Punch Man. If you ask me, this topic is being discussed way too aggressively, over what's basically light entertainment.

>>149602004
The difference was that the Kanada-style of animation was amazing.

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>>149585746
>>149587171
what's the matter?

>>149601875
I don't think they are a minority, but even if people want better animation they aren't going to get it (and it's not like they are even really the target audience). American movies have dropped 2D animation, and the TV shows look like ass and are outsourced to Korea and may or may not involve hand-drawn animation.

Even if American TV animation had its shit reasonably together, producing 10-20 minutes of animation on a weekly schedule is different from cartoon shorts.

>>149601972
>It definately is not better.
It's fucking light years ahead of early 20th century animation.

>I never said it. You are just drawing conclusions because i disagree with the shit you spout.
Then what are you complaining about?

>they are not even that good, it's just regular shit you see everyday.
You don't know anything about animation then. You are totally clueless and shouldn't even attempt to argue about the topic.

>>149601977
This is meme shit. You don't watch anime. You don't know what you're talking about.

>>149602027
Which is your personal opinion of course. There are many amazing scenes from web-gen animators too and with so many of them being young animators they can only get better with time.

ITT

Dude frames make it look better
Vs.
Dude lighting and effects make it look better

>>149602160
Lighting and effects are animation and yes they do make things look better, but they are not the only thing involved in animation.

>>149602106
>meme meme meme
That's all you can say, and yet to prove my point I just have to make you sit through one whole episode of whatever is airing right now.

Look, I'm not arguing that stuff looks worse now, or that everything is pure still shots of people talking. My point is that budgets have gotten so thin that there is no point in evening out the quality, that's why studios choose to concentrate effort in short scenes, no longer than a minute two at a time.

>>149602278
>That's all you can say
No, that's all YOU can say. I'm just pointing your meme usage.

>to prove my point I just have to make you sit through one whole episode of whatever is airing right now
Unlike you I am watching many shows this season.

>My point is that budgets have gotten so thin that there is no point in evening out the quality, that's why studios choose to concentrate effort in short scenes, no longer than a minute two at a time.
I'm sure it's real in your mind.

>>149602278
>that's why studios choose to concentrate effort in short scenes
That's the norm for anime for a very long time, mate. Only the really big-budget movies can have the resources to have high standards for pretty much every scene, otherwise anime has been a matter of careful resource allocation.

>>149602325
Nah, you are a blind ass hat, no use taliking to you at all. Just for a random sample I took the third elisode of that keiju thing you or that other guy posted and it's quite literally mouthflapping with sprinkled speedy jerky frames of animations every five minutes or so.

>>149602443
Yes, and watch a bunch of TV anime from the decades past and odds are you'd find similar levels of cheap animation. You are sorely mistaken if you think modern anime is somehow cheaper than old anime. It isn't and anime has been a cheap affair for a very long time.

>>149602443
This shit is straight from the Anime Criticism Starter Pack. Every chucklefuck whose anime experience is limited to watching DBZ as a kid spouts this shit like it was their own opinion all along. Le flaps and le pans all the time and only a few seconds or minutes of real animation, what went wrong guys?

Get a hobby and stop whining about something you don't know anything about and have no interest in.

>>149595284
If buy "production quality" you mean cheap effects used to substitute detail and actual animation (which is no misconception), sure.

>>149595284
Anime is based on western animation

>>149602569
Remember that strawman is not argument.

>>149602603
More stupid meme shit.

>>149602624
What about it?

>>149602624
Hasn't really been that way for a long time, from what I understand.

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Only those who never watched Ufotable anime think digital is bad. It surpasses cel when done right.

TV anime has been on a roll this decade with projects like Space Dandy, One-Punch Man, and Mob Psycho being some recent examples to showcase up-and-coming animation talent. The demand for more workers in the industry also helped speed up the promotion of skilled animators with some guys in their early 20s being assigned animation supervisor or episode director roles. Too bad the working conditions are crazier than ever.

>>149602730
>One-Punch Man
No.

>>149602659
What are you talking about?

>>149602684
Technically digital animation is vastly superior to cel animation. The only advantage of cel animation is its aesthetic qualities like grain and limited colors (which can be reproduced in digital animation).

>>149602751
OPM had some great animation in it.

>>149602751
Why not? Say what you want about the unremarkable directing and bland colours but the action animation is very good.

>>149602787
Digital cannot reproduce grain or limited colors.

>>149602811
Grain can be added digitally, and any color that you see when you're watching Akira for example can be used in digital animation. It's as easy as pointing your color picker at the color you want.

>>149585406
The style of artwork has become standardized like in the west. There's fewer works with a unique look in comparison to the past when people were far more experimental.

Shows are also far more safer, you won't see anything like Serial Experiments Lain or Devil Man again.

>>149602844
The problem is while it can be recreated, no one has bothered to try, so digital animation is inherently shit.

>>149602811
Of course it can.
http://utw.me/2012/12/07/shinsekai-yori-bd-vol-1-01/
But almost nobody does it because there are virtually no benefits to it. Why would they add back something the movie industry tried for years to remove?

>>149602512
Then I overreacted when I said it got worse with time. It is, and always will be about the money thrown in. I think it boils down to what we mean by better or lightyears ahead. If it's about what can we do now that wasnt possible 10 20 30... years ago then yes, it's getting better ans you/he is right. But if it comes down to communicating an idea then I believe that we are not lightyears ahead and that I can find older stuff enjoyable wihtout someone here calling ot hipster or nostalgia gogles.

>>149602684
You say that but Ufotable has yet to top Futakoi Alternative which looks nothing like their current filter/gradient ridden trash.

>>149602879
>The style of artwork has become standardized like in the west.
No it hasn't.

There is possibly less "experimentation" now, but it's a small difference if it even exists.

>>149602896
It's not a problem with digital animation, it's a problem with the artists. So no, digital animation is not inherently shit. And the subjective aesthetic qualities of grain and limited colors pale in comparison to what digital animation enables and how much labor it saves.

>>149602960
I like their current approach even if it's heavy-handed at times but you should see Majokko or Minori Scramble for the more colourful stuff.

>>149602907
The grain in this doesn't even look remotely like something done mastered on film.
Literally kill yourself.

>>149603073
>YOU POSTED SOMETHING THAT HAS GRAIN BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THE GRAIN IN CEL ANIMATION
>KILL YOURSELF
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>MOMMY MOMMY

>>149603122
>this particular technique can't be reproduced nowadays
>yes it can, look
>it doesn't even look similar, fuck off
I'm not even the same guy but holy hell you sure are an idiot.

>>149603122
You need to take some deep breaths

>>149602569
Just because someone who literally only watched dbz can hold an opinion doesnt make it any less right. You are still an asshat who puts hands over his ears and shouts at slightest criticism.

>>149602896
Why would they go back and be nostalgia fags when they have infinite possibilities for colour now?

>>149602960
Paradox Spiral and Majokko surpassed it. Unless you mean TV series, then FutaAlt is indeed their best

>>149592235
Mouth movement is inconsequential. Some times its done, some times it isn't. There was an older South Park episode on this.

Can anyone name a western handrawn TV animation show that is on par with japanese animation in the last 10 years? I think not so whats all this useless discussion for. Obviously disney was great in the past, but just compare the budget those movies had with todays budget for anime and you get why they were like that. Apart from the genius talent at work.

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Action animation has never been better.

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>>149602811
>Digital cannot reproduce grain

>>149603213
Because all that color means nothing when somehow the ratio of good looking to bland looking shows hasn't changed, contrary to what pro-older and pro-newer people think.

>>149603271
Korra was pretty well-animated. Some action scenes had timing issues but there were many impressive scenes nonetheless.

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>>149602879
Anime is really mostly a product to begin with. There's probably something like 100 anime ever year, and almost every single one is specifically designed to to make as much profit as possible by having simplistic themes, shallow one-note characters, copy/pasted tropes, rarely breaking into anything greater. Anime in general is a product made to sell toys an other worthless junk to Japanese manchildren. The trend of adding computer effects and real life backgrounds to anime is really just a superficial attempt at depth - to give it the impression of being something more than it actually is. Most people who watch anime and collect shit really do it out of habit than anything else, because they've been hooked once. Rarely do you see an anime that has had positive affect on culture or the world as a whole, because most people acknowledge it as being cheap, cheesy, or a product.

>>149603310
Isn't that mostly just because of how big the anime industry is now?

>>149603334
The animation studio for most of korra was based in Korea, so i wouldnt count it in, when talking about western animation.

>>149603205
But this "opinion" isn't right, and that's the entire point here. How am I an asshat for not validating something that is invalid?

>>149603271
Disney's movies are very overrated and a lot of TV anime has surpassed them. People just commonly think that there's nothing more to animation than making it fluid.

>>149603367
Oh look, more meme shit from someone who doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

>>149603213
Animation created by hand is not reproducible by computers. You talk about infinite possibility for colour, and yet digital animation will never look as good as the best of analog methods.

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>>149603367
Are you implying that western cartoons aren't a product ?

>>149603416
Sure it won't. The Wind Rises and Kaguya-hime are better looking than all of your cel shit.

>>149603367
Its due to the people making anime, they are not people who go out and meet people and learn from life. They are otakus themselfs and just want to make easy feel good shows like most of Moe anime that come out every season. They arent doing what they as artists think is good, they just do what is popular in the otaku demographic.

>>149599634
Not really.

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>>149585406
I tend to be a modern anime is shit kind of guy, but there's nothing special or exemplary about the video you posted.

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>>149603416
Anime is still mostly drawn on pen and paper. The drawings are just digitized. Tablets are slowly taking over (or seem to be), but even that is still hand-drawn animation.

>>149599769
>Now then, to fuck

>>149603416
You do realise that pretty much all digital animation is still done on paper right? They just scan it into the computer and add effects/colour.

>>149603475
>who is Naoko Yamada

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>>149603416
>Animation created by hand is not reproducible by computers.
Animation is still created by hand.

>>149588680
Terrible

>>149603475
EVEN MORE MEME SHIT

I get the feeling that only a minority of people on /a/ have seen anything more recent than Cowboy Bebop.

>>149603532
I watched Space Dandy, it was shit compare to Bebop

>>149603406
>Disney's movies are very overrated and a lot of TV anime has surpassed them.
I like Japanese animation but this is just so wrong. What made Disney animation great wasn't about fluidity, but how the animators managed to give life to their work through expressive drawings and a lot of thought put into how a character would act.

>>149603532
>Everything I dont agree with is a meme

>>149603567
Name one Disney production with "expressive drawings and a lot of thought put into how a character would act"

>>149603532
Describe which part of his argument are meme-shit.

>>149603557
In any case you have no idea what you're talking about.

>>149603567
>expressive
This is a popular buzzword among the /co/ crowd. If they don't insist that fluidity is all that matters, then they'll mumble something about "expressiveness."

There is massively more to animation than just having fluidly animated characters express themselves through exaggerated motions, and this is something that has never been understood in America.

>>149603496
>>149603509
>>149603522
Sorry, was referring more specifically to the parts that are done with a computer. The background art of Only Yesterday, for example, simply could not be done with digital paint. The "infinite possibility for colour" can't capture the richness of hand painted artwork.

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>>149603406
Elaborate please. By the way, you are definitely wrong about many TV animation surpassing Disney. You definitely seem like the person that I'm describing, who only values superficial details. Be honest with yourself, you have learned nothing and gained nothing from watching seasonal garbage. Disney has had an genuine impact on worldwide culture. KyoAni product no.14 hasn't, and never will.

>>149603424
They are products, but in different ways.

>>149603527
Kill yourself.

>>149603579
It is meme shit. It has nothing to do with me.

>>149603602
All of it.

>>149603585
Look at Bill Tytla's animation of Dumbo or Glen Keane's Ariel in The Little Mermaid.

>>149603294
I wouldnt say better but different. I guess animators are better in some departments than they were before. Some of the shit beginners pull off nowaydays wouldnt have been possible 30 years ago. But they lost touch for the mundane and the subtlety.

>>149603406
>a lot of tv anime has surpassed them
That's a pretty bold statement. Care to back it up? There are shining moments here and there from time to time, but saying a "lot" have surpassed it makes you look purely contrarian.

>>149603641
>shitting on KyoAni
Stopped reading there

>>149603641
>By the way, you are definitely wrong about many TV animation surpassing Disney.
I'm definitely not.

>You definitely seem like the person that I'm describing, who only values superficial details.
You definitely seem like a complete fucking retard who has not even the slightest clue of what he's talking about and just repeats shit he heard somewhere on the internet.

>seasonal
This is a meme. "Seasonal" doesn't mean anything. Every TV anime is "seasonal." Cowboy Bebop was seasonal, Evangelion was seasonal, K-On was seasonal, Flip Flappers is seasonal.

>KyoAni product no.14
Meme. Again. As usual.

>>149603655
I know it's easy to dismiss his arguments with a strawman, but i'd like you to explain how and which parts are memeshit.

>>149603367
>The trend of adding computer effects and real life backgrounds to anime is really just a superficial attempt at depth - to give it the impression of being something more than it actually is.
Or maybe they just think it's aesthetically appealing.

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>>149603655
>everything i hate are meme
>>>/r/eddit

>>149603617
>There is massively more to animation than just having fluidly animated characters express themselves through exaggerated motions

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that what was shown in classic Disney movies were technical accomplishments of the highest level that even 2D animators look up to today.

>>149603532
Stop throwing a fit and just argue with arguments. I follow every season and watch some stuff every now and then. But the focus did change into more mindless feel-good entertainment with no artistic value or message. Luckily we have so many shows every season, that a lot of gems come out of this shit too.

>>149603684
>Care to back it up?
Like I said earlier:
>There is massively more to animation than just having fluidly animated characters express themselves through exaggerated motions, and this is something that has never been understood in America.
The American concept of animation begins with fluidity and ends with "expressiveness."

>>149603730
I never said anything of the sort.

>>>/r/eddit

>>149603712
>K-On was seasonal
Yes, it was. Why are you putting this garbage next to Evangelion and Bebop?

>>149603628
I'm 99% sure it could be mimicked in digital but why would we need to mimic when there's so many possibilities for something greater? Why should we be restricted by nostalgia when we can branch out and do something new?

>>149603763
I fucking miss 2D disney. One of the reasons i love anime so much is that its the only source for nice 2d animation from time to time.

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>>149603768
>But the focus did change into more mindless feel-good entertainment with no artistic value or message.
When do think this change occurred?

>>149603698
Typical. The sacred cows of superficial products must not be attacked.

>>149603712
>I'm definitely not.
Substantiate your claims.

>You definitely seem(...)
No argument or substantiation. Nice.

>This is a meme. "Seasonal" doesn't mean anything.
Fair point, but really I'm just using it as an expression to mean numerous. Etymology and all.

>Meme. Again. As usual.
Still a complete lack of argument.

>>149603742
Yes, they were technical accomplishments. But they have been surpassed by anime regardless.

>>149603768
Stop spouting memes and just argue with arguments.

>I follow every season and watch some stuff every now and then.
You are either lying or you are so easily manipulable that your thoughts are controlled by others. In any case your just full of shitty memes.

>>149603771
Because they are all "seasonal," you moron. Evangelion is not any less "seasonal" than K-On.

>>149603768
It was always like this Anon. If you disagree tell us when it wasn't.

>>149603682
>But they lost touch for the mundane and the subtlety.
To be fair, how often did you even see stuff like that in the 80s and 90s? There tends to be a lot of shows with resources dedicated to action scenes rather than animating low-key stuff, not to mention the latter does take a different kind of rare skill to pull off. It's not like another Osamu Tanabe is easy to find and groom.

>>149603794
I'm not convinced there is the possibility for something greater, nor do I believe nostalgia has anything to do with anything. Trying new things is great, but new things are not necessarily digital.

>>149603847
>Substantiate your claims.
I already did.

>No argument or substantiation. Nice.
So where the fuck was the "argument" and "substantation" in "You definitely seem like the person that I'm describing, who only values superficial details"?

>Still a complete lack of argument.
Memes are not arguments.

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>>149603768
Yes, because disney products were full of artistic values and messages.

>>149585406
Anno, mah boi
Squadalah~

Also, you finally realizing that japanese anime began thanks to inspiration from Walt Disney in the west and took its name from the French to show its western influence?

>>149603903
They were

>>149603855
>But they have been surpassed by anime regardless.
In what way?

>>149603905
Pretty sure the Japs were influenced by more than just Disney. Look at the short posted by the OP, it looks very Fleischer-esque.

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Name a TV series with better animation.

>>149603905
"Anime" is derived from "animation," and people keep constantly misunderstanding or misrepresenting the relationship between Disney and anime.

>>149603956
Nichijou.

>>149603944
Japan was influenced by all the western studios of the 30's and 40's, this isn't strictly regulated to only Disney despite what memers want you to think

>>149603891
Why aren't you convinced? Animation has on multiple times improved by leaps and bounds by neat techniques, rotoscoping and using CG as a model come to mind.
And I guess some new non analog things could be good like puppetry as we saw in Thunderbolt Fantasy but digital is just way too good and cost efficient nowadays.

>>149603914
Okay then, name five disney movies that were full of artistic values and messages, and describe how are full of artistic values and messages.

>>149604016
>>>/co/

>>149603994
I really hope you're not implying rotoscoping is something new because that shit sure as hell ain't.

>>149603485
Without cell animation every single rock and tree had to be redrawn each and every single time every frame and then photographed one by one. Like a giant flip book.

It is an unbeatable feat of animation.

>>149599720
>>149599708
Well, you're wrong.

>>149603941
Again:
>There is massively more to animation than just having fluidly animated characters express themselves through exaggerated motions, and this is something that has never been understood in America.
Anime takes a holistic, cinematic approach to animation. It considers all aspects of animation, filmmaking and storytelling and has works in every genre about far more topics than Disney and American animation at large have ever tackled.

Disney's animation was also rooted too much in simplistic cartoon animation.

>>149604040
rotoscoping is new though

>>149603956
Hyouka, Nichijou

>>149603899
>I already did.
Where? If you did, I can't see it. Perhaps you should just explain, instead of dodging with "meme".

>So where the fuck was the "argument" and "substantation" in "You definitely seem like the person that I'm describing, who only values superficial details"?
It is in your own self admittance. It is a fact that you believe superficial products of TV animation to be a superior sacred cow.

>Memes are not arguments.
Calling the truth a "meme" is poor form

>>149604040
How did you get that from my post? I know it's been a thing for decades.

>>149604049
>dude it was difficult so it's good

>>149604016
No need there should be several thousand opinion pieces on the interent that examine the value of disney movies, if you are really interested in it go at it.

>>149604064
>invented by Max Fliescher in 1915
"new"

>>149604064
>The Rotoscope technique was invented by Max Fleischer in 1915

>>149603994
I don't see it has having improved, is all, and I'm not convinced because I've seen what I believe to be the best of modern anime and I don't consider it an improvement in any way.

>>149604037
Well, you sure proved how mainstream disney products are full of depth.

>>149604064
It absolutely is not. Simply looking at wikipedia will show you that it's been around before your parents were alive.

>>149604016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Walt_Disney_Pictures_films

>>149604051
>Disney's animation was also rooted too much in simplistic cartoon animation.
what does this even mean?

>>149604076
>Where?
Jesus christ... >>149603770

>dodging with "meme".
I have not "dodged" anything.

>It is in your own self admittance. It is a fact that you believe superficial products of TV animation to be a superior sacred cow.
What the fuck are you babbling about?

>Calling the truth a "meme" is poor form
Go fuck yourself you goddamn subhuman. Take your memes and shove them up your ass. There is no "truth" in them, they are complete and utter bullshit and I tired of seeing them posted every time anime is talked about.

>>149604133
Inside Out has more depth than any anime this decade.

>>149604132
You really don't think TV anime has improved in quality a heckton? Yeah movies looked better back on cel but TV looks a whole lot better now in my opinion.

>>149604049
That's impressive in a sense, but I don't think the value of something is determined by how difficult it was to produce.

>>149604193
It was too simplistic to be called having much depth. People were just suprised to see such depth from an animated movie.

>>149604199
I'm strictly considering the best, I couldn't care less for average works.

File: 1473681563065.gif (1MB, 346x261px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 346x261px

>>149604193
oh god

>>149604051
>It considers all aspects of animation, filmmaking and storytelling
And Disney movies didn't?
Have you even watched any?
American animation has also done more genres than you might think.

>>149604193
Inside Out sucks and the only good thing is how fuckable Riley was.

File: Innocence Emura.mkv.webm (3MB, 834x450px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 834x450px

It's still pretty good.

>>149604199
These people who rant about how cel is objectively better have ironically seen very few cel anime. Their experience begins and ends with Akira and Gainax so they think everything is at that level of quality.

>>149604187
Look at this for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgghnQF6E4

Very typical example of cartoon animation. It looks like the characters on (an exceptionally shallow) stage. It's all very flat, simple and repetitive in how it's shot. It's not cinematic at all.

>>149604261
that was animated over 12 years ago though

>>149604239
>>149604246
>>149604259
Not an argument

>>149604152
And how they are full of artistic values and messages ?

>>149604248
>And Disney movies didn't?
They certainly did not. They weren't made with the same mindset at all. Animation in America is not approached as if it were cinema.

>American animation has also done more genres than you might think.
It has done fuckall compared to anime.