http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new s/2016-11-04/p.a-works-r

Apparently animators are underpaid and overworked almost everywhere.

>The study concluded that the average yearly income for entry-level in-between animators in 2013 was 1.113 million yen (currently about US$10,795).
How do they even survive?

>>149455456
Yeah but PA Works touts themselves as one of the better studios who pay their animators well.

>>149455481
Inbetweeners arent real people, they dont count.

>>149455465
PA Works have dorms

>>149455465
cost of living in japan is a fraction of what it is in america

even then, they're really fuckin poor.

>>149455465
They don't stay as in-betweeners long. They have to pass the test to move on to key animation or they get forced out

>>149455492
I know right, Koreans totally aren't people.

>Our company did not cancel a contract with this staff member

So did they fire him or not

>>149455242
It's been discussed for the last couple of years, but no one has a solution. Japan's backwards society is just kafkaesque.

I'm surprised that directors only earn 60k however.

>>149455576
Pressured to resign

>>149455576
They'll meet an unfortunate event with truck-kun.

>>149455242
A majority of studios pay by the completed work. There are a couple exceptions to that but it's the general rule.

To think they made Shirobako

>>149455510
It's even higher in Japan than the US, what? The only thing that's cheaper is food.

The Japan Animation Creators Association (JAniCA) need to stop siting around scratching their balls and start looking for the inbetweeners then. Or they are just an association with no power?
>captcha : ciber police
My fucking sides.

Turns out that a job that consists mostly of bulk tracing drawings from other people doesn't pay that much

Go figure.

>>149455465
>How do you survive in a <3-year entry-level position as a high school graduate?
You live with your parents.

KyoAni is the model example

>>149455816
There is no unions in Japan. Associations have no power and are there for name.

>>149455845
Yea, all the inbetween animators should just look for another job. Anime does work well with only key animations after all.

>>149455906
> There is no unions in Japan
Stop spewing this bullshit. That's untrue, and Janica is in fact a union. They just aren't as powerful.

>>149455914
Well, if you can't get out of the fucking base-level position that actually penalizes you if you don't get promoted in a few years, then yes, you should look for another job.

>>149455845
Automated inbetweening software can't come soon enough.

>>149455914
Yeah maybe all people in interships and entry-level jobs should just quit altogether

>>149455914
No, they should just get good and pass the test to become an actual animator.

>>149455730
It's the same with most artists in the west as well. They just pay far more here because all of our artists are shit.

>>149456126
But who does the inbetween work if they all pass the test?

Strike.

>>149456203
A new batch of hopeful youngsters.

>>149456126
Sounds easy in theory but they are always going to need inbetweeners, you might not be able promote everyone who's good enough

Seems like a good but shady way for a studio to pay somebody less while getting better work than you'd expect from that pay grade if you have this subjective "animator test" by the studio itself rather than some outside institution.

File: 1426347631535.jpg (262KB, 720x960px) Image search: [Google]

262KB, 720x960px

>>149456206
Pretty much this.

>>149456232
Which means you need people that have not passed the test.

>>149456236
It actually seems like a great way to learn animation. Considering I'm paying far more than that to study at a university for 4 years, being able to do meaningful work while learning directly from pros seems like a great deal.

>>149456302
What part of "hopeful youngsters" do you not understand? It works the same way most entry-level jobs do - people get steadily promoted, new people steadily come in, those who can't cut it either leave or try to stick it out against rational advice. The pay is lower than normal even for entry-level, but the principle is the same.

>>149455465
Those numbers are misleading. The average entry-level in-betweener does not work year-round, for example, and most have other part-time jobs while off for a season.

>>149456363
Not a great way to make enough to live off of though

>>149456236
This sounds conspiracy theory-ish to me. Why would the studio want to keep talented people doing unimportant work? I'm sure they have more of a dearth of skilled labor than of unskilled labor, and rushed/half-assed key animations hurt a production more than rushed/half-assed in-betweens, anyway.

>>149456442
In case you weren't in the last few threads, if they can't pass the test after three years the studio apparently starts charging them rent for the workspace (the in-betweeners are contractors, not employees), which I think is a pretty clear message that they don't want you and that you should look for another career. Being an in-betweener is not a way to make a living, it's a training position.

>>149456236
They just need inbetweeners in Japan as a way to train future key animators. The bulk of inbetweening work can be outsourced to China and Korea.

>>149456375
>those who can't cut it either leave or try to stick it out against rational advice.
So you're saying you want them to look for another job.

>>149456513
Previous threads? I was trying to look for threads but couldnt find any so I made one.

>>149456542
If they prove they can't hack it, then yes. The industry wants that, too - see >>149456513. They clearly don't have any big concern about a lack of in-betweeners.

>>149456566
The ones yesterday or the day before, when this whole shit started but before PA commented on it. Check the archives.

>>149456542
If they suck so much ass they cant get past entry-level for years, then yeah. Same with any other job

>>149456407
The point is that it's is more like an internship than a job. This shit is common for any job above burger flipping and IT. To be honest, having 3 years is lenient enough. If you're incompetent or can't learn as an intern you just flat out get blacklisted in some industries.

>>149456637
Meant to reply to >>149456442

>>149456594
Any key words I should use To search?

>>149456847
PA Works?

>>149456868
Tried it got nothing

>>149456879
https://boards.fireden.net/a/thread/149303557/

Look harder mate

>>149456904
>that commentary by the animator
>So if you make it to three years as an inbetweener without moving up to key animation, they start charging you 6000 yen a month to use your desk. It’s like they’re silently trying to say, “Get out of here. You don’t have the talent for this work.” Like holy shit. I’ve been working here for three years for peanuts and THAT’S how you treat me? I’m starting to seriously hate this place.
Is this fucking satire? Does she not realize that's exactly what she's being told?

>>149456940
If I'm not mistaken it's pretty normal for studios to impose a desk fee for contracted animators.

>they start charging you 6000 yen a month to use your desk.

Why wasn't this in Shirobako

Should I feel guilty for buying all my PA Works related BDs and merch?

>>149457122
Because Ema was already a key animator

>>149457122
Because Ema actually had talent.

>>149457284
Nah, it's just entry level monkeys complaining about not being paid enough for doing entry-level monkey work and bring told to fuck off for not moving past from entry-level monkey for 3 years

>>149457284
Obviously you should burn all your merch and put it on twitter

>>149457413
Shhh, let's not give Yaraon and Shitkaku ideas for manufacture nontroversy

>>149457122
Turns out not many studios are willing to disclose things that might hurt their reputation. The desk fee in particular sounds way more humiliating than just firing the shittier animators.

>>149457678
It's Japan, aka the country of indirects and hints

>>149457678
When will we get the real Shirobako that highlights all the shit that actually goes on in the industry?

>>149457760
It will have to be done by non anime people, but then they wouldn't know
Your only hope is a bunch of disgruntled ex-employees getting so mad they band together just to make a fuck you to the entire industry

>>149455456
Except at Kyoani.

>>149457868
Well that's a given.

>>149457868
Ghibli too

>>149457733
Maybe making people feel worthless turns them on.

>>149455242
I am the bone of my art
Pencils are my body and paper is my blood
I have created over a thousand frames
Unknown to fair wages
Nor known to work-life balance
Have spent many eighteen-hour days drawing
Yet this savings account shall never hold anything
So, as I scribe, Progressive Animation Works

What is a desk fee? Does this kind of thing exist in white man's world?

>>149458303
There are plenty of shitty internships where you have to pay for your "qualification" fees if you aren't hired

File: Cost_of_living_cities_2014.jpg (71KB, 590x313px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 590x313px

>>149455465
those numbers are too high. They polled Janica members, which means the participants are more likely to be skilled or active in the animation community than the average newbie.
>>149455510
False, it is higher.
>>149455816
They're there to provide cheaper education and run polls about what's going on in the industry, not be studio's personal recruiting agent.
>>149455974
It doesn't work like traditional union in North America would. They don't organize strikes, negotiate conditions or call companies out when member's rights are violate. Their official response to this PA fiasco was something like "don't write stuff on Twitter, animator guys" despite the fact that with no contract this in betweener had every right to disclose the details of her employment.
Toei had a union, but their official site hasn't been updated in a few years.
>>149456407
No they don't, dickfist. Most studios forbid you working part time in addition to the studio. There is no "off season" either, animators work even through New Year's break.
>>149456468
Because their standard for "in house keyframer" is stupidly high. Meanwhile they have to outsource a ton of work to people that are way below that standard, making them officially dumbfucks.
>>149456126
This mentality is exactly what is killing animation in Japan. 2nd key is the next job on the slippery slope that's sliding down onto China and Korea's plate. Before you know it's they'll be like the US.

>>149457760
it's called Animation Seisaku Shinkou Kuromi-chan

>>149457760
There's a Paranoia Agent episode that shows a bleaker depiction of animating

>>149458472
Is there a site where you can read up on this stuff?

>>149458472
>Meanwhile they have to outsource a ton of work to people that are way below that standard, making them officially dumbfucks.
Do they pay the outsourced guys the same amount?

>>149458606
Generally, yes. Some places take 10 or 20 yen off per in between (out of ~200), or 100-200 yen off for key/2nd key (out of ~2000)
>>149458592
http://www.janica.jp/index.html and animation threads on 2ch
Not sure if there's much of this information floating around in English though.

>>149458472
Welp, that's it then

Anime's dead and finished now

>>149458682
Cool, thanks. I need to practice my moon anyway.

So wholl be running the band next year? Natsuki, Yuko and Nozomi?

Can no longer brag about my favorite anime studio

Look, animators need to stand up for themselves. I mean, if they don't start demanding to the top 1% with unions and collective labor action for better working conditions, they'll keep living like shit forever.

>>149459102
Totally. Nobody causing problems. The fact that staff is so spread out among small companies makes it difficult to coordinate, but that is what is most needed for the industry.

>>149459102
We need to make Japan great again.

>>149459102
>top 1%
I hate bernie sanders for starting this meme.

>>149458472
> with no contract this in betweener had every right to disclose the details of her employment
There's a difference between disclosing details and ranting about how the company is "evil" and "fucked up." She's presumably still not violating any contract, but it's not doing her any favors. Come on, this isn't 2006, by now there've been more than enough cautionary tales about people being called to account for badmouthing employers/schools/whatever on social media that everyone with a brain should know it's a bad idea.

>the studio that made an anime about making anime is treating their animators like crap

Really makes ya think

>>149458472
>False, it is higher.
Stopped reading right there, you have no clue what you're talking about. Stop pretending to be an anime professor while parroting """""industry news""""" you found on random weebsites.

>>149458303
Yea, in the US you have to pay them 60k a year for the privilege of doing work for 4 years, and you have to pass a bunch of tests before any companies will hire you.

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89KB, 427x378px

>>149459956
Nice.

>>149455242
>Im a huge PA Works fan and I'm dissapointed with what they pulled with their inbetweeners.

You either a fucking ignorant retard or a hypocrite.

>>149458472
PA Works is not in Tokyo.

>>149456236
They don't need Japanese tweeners. The only reason studios still hire in-house tweeners is to train them to become actual animators. Might as well move to Vietnam if you want to tween for life.

>>149460850
What is there to be ignorant about. PA Works touted themselvesnas one of the few studios to treatedbtheir animators well alongside KyoAni and Ghibli. So when they do the opposite of what my perception of them is why is it wrong thati feel bad?

>>149459631
Tweener != animator.

>>149459656
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/los-angeles?

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/seattle?

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/boston?

https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/dallas?

Only US city I can get to come up as more expensive than Tokyo is NYC
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/new-york-city?

>>149459631
I'm sure it happens to every studio apart from Godani.

>>149461408
See >>149461531
She should be thankful she still gets free lodging after staying on the entry-level job for 3 years.

>>149461388
The only notable difference is rent being cheaper, but in this case they were staying in a dorm making it a moot point.
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/toyama?

>>149461408
>PA Works touted themselvesnas one of the few studios to treatedbtheir animators well alongside KyoAni and Ghibli.

When did they say that?

>>149455465
Well, it's considered a good salary here in Russia

>>149461408
>touted themselvesn
When?

>>149461554
>comparing Japan's most overpopulated metropolis with third-tier nigger-cities
>not knowing about the bay area meme
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/palo-alto
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/mountain-view-california
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tokyo/san-francisco

>>149461979
point is Japan's rural areas are actually a lot closer to Tokyo than the spectrum in the US. Tokyo being a more expensive city, where the majority of the animator population works, makes >>149455510
claim that COL is a "fraction" total bullshit. Also, Dallas is a way more urban than where PA is located. The few cities that are more expensive than Tokyo are so by a much smaller margin than the difference between Tokyo and the US's cheaper large cities.

The US is comparable to Tokyo in a few places, and ranges from cheaper to much cheaper in others.

>>149462448
Continue spreading misinformation if you want. Maybe it will eventually improve your reading comprehension.

>>149458472
Why are two nigger cities at the top?

Still looking forward to their next original.

so let me get this straight

she's merely an inbetweener and yet she complains about her salary and shows her invoice on twitter (which is illegal)

and they still don't fire her?

Why are you looking down on in betweener?

>>149455242
Anyone have compilation of novel 3 spoilers of novelanon that include taki and mamikos side?

>>149465440

They haven't a had a good show since Shirobako.

Reasons to give your all? Those are endless!
Don't imitate others, go make things come true
Take on the opportunity! There's no right or wrong in this world
There's a meaning to everything, no two people are alike after all
What a charming STAR JET you are

I want to shine brighter
/ais/ - Anime Industy Specialists surely like myself

More Nagi no Asukara please

>>149455242
They should open patreon for new animators.

you honestly should never aspire to work in Japan.
it's no fun allowed

>>149455242
Their statement sound like something yakuza would write.

>>149455242
I personally don't like kyoani shows, but their management and work ethics are the better in this shit industry. The rest should follow them.

>>149469645
>Implying Kyoani doesn't pay peanuts to their inbetweeeners too

>>149463849
>burgers actually measure the cost of living by the price of hamburgers
Top fucking kek.

>>149466167
>>149462319
>>149470591
I don't understand what is so wrong. Inbetweening is not a job. It is training, an apprenticeship, an opportunity to learn how to animate. Of course you will be paid peanuts, but they give you housing and enough to live.

If you really want to complain, you should look at how key animators still earn very little and support them instead. Supporting the self-important newbies who are too lazy to learn, that is how things like Under the Dog happen.

>>149472126
Westerners are too stupid to distinguish real issues from shit-stirring incompetents