What's the moral justification for Shinji to interrupt Instrumentality?

hedgehog dilemma etc

>>149151906
I thought Shinji just made it an individual decision, so people can choose to be human or join the goop.

>>149151956
That doesn't explain why Shinji chooses to basically kill the only hope of immortality for mankind. Atleast how I understand it, Instrumentality doesn't seem to have an end.

>>149151906
He thought that problem was in everyone around him, but then realize, that problem was in his own fucked up mind, so there is no need for everyone to die.

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Instrumentality is death. The moral justification for rejecting instrumentality is the same as the reason to not kill yourself.

>>149151906
if no body how do sex

>>149152017
Mankind ceases to truly exist in instrumentality. The only way to be a human is to exist as an individual.

>>149151906
He didn't interrupt it. He made it possible for people to come back, if they want to.

>>149152072
>Instrumentality is death
How so? If SEELE simply wanted death, they would've settled for some nukes. Obviously there is some resemblance of consciousness in Instrumentality.

>>149151906
because he comes to the conclusion that instrumentality is a fantasy land and can never be a replacement for reality

also because everyone hates him even in fantasy :^)

>>149151906
The justification is that he's giving people a choice. He isn't tearing them out of Instrumentality. He's allowing them to break free from it if that's what they want to do.
Ending someone's life without their consent is generally considered to be bad. Letting them choose between Instrumentality and real life was the best thing he could have done.

>>149152184
When you enter Instrumentality, you cease to exist as a person. Everything that is you ceases to be yours as it is mixed together with everything that makes everyone else them. All beings essentially die to give rise to a single, higher being composed of the consensus of all of its individual parts.

Instrumentality is not you experiencing a fantasy world or enjoying immortality. It's you sacrificing yourself along with the rest of humanity to give rise to a god.

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>>149152158
>>149151998
So it's a choice. This then assumes that the ones in Instrumentality are aware of themselves enough to make this choice.

Then my next question would be, why would you choose not to be in Instrumentality? Having a body is great but eventually your body gets old and you'll die. Instrumentality seems to leave you with some level of awareness of yourself.

>>149152203
It's bad if their children cannot choose Instrumentality.

>>149151906

Shinji doesn't interrupt instrumentality though. He just makes the choice to not be part of it, and leaves the door open for everyone else to not be part of it as well.

SEELE and Gendo got fucked, but to them instrumentality was just part of the plan.

>>149151906
Because life would be boring if everyone was one collective consciousness

With no interaction between humans there is no pain, but there is also no pleasure
Even though we can hurt each other we can choose not to, and THAT'S what makes human interaction worth it

>>149152251
So a sacrifice for the greater good?
I don't see the problem
It's not bad
I'd love to be part of a higher being than just being a cog in the machine on earth

>>149152340
Better get rid of anonymous imageboards then because people shouldn't be able to interact without barriers.

>>149152256

Because life is suffering and everyone can hurt you, but sometimes they chose not to hurt you, and that's what makes life worth living.

"Death" being a bad thing is also a very christian way of thinking of death. If we look at Buddhism or Hinduism though, there's the counter argument that life is the bad thing, and to exist forever is to suffer forever.

>>149152357
Because you do not exist as a person when you're part of Instrumentality. When you're on earth, you exist as an individual and can act on your own. When you're part of Instrumentality, you essentially do not exist at all.

You're essentially saying you want to kill yourself.

>>149152381
Death is good in Christianity, it's the gateway to eternal life

>>149152256
Probably some similar sort of bullshit like the Experience Machine thought experiment.

>>149152381
Both Hinduism and Buddhism hint at an afterlife. Very few if any religions claim life abruptly ends with death. Almost every religion hints at some kind of afterlife. I'd argue that Nirvana is pretty close to what Instrumentality is. The death of ego. Becoming one with everything.

I honestly can't comprehend why you would choose to be a mortal being instead of living an eternal bliss as one with everything. Once you're dead, you're dead. Your lives won't matter. Your actions won't matter. You're stuck in the abyss.

>>149152432
No, I'm saying I wanna be part of a god

>>149152467
You can point to any number of faiths that place you as already part of god at this very moment. What you want is superficial and ultimately irrelevant in Instrumentality; you do not exist as a person within it, you do not have wants or desires. You're little more than a cell.

>>149152467
You're part of a god in the same way that a quark is a part of the Earth.

I thought he didn't actually stop instrumentality, just rejected it for himself?
Which is why he awoke, while a ton of others are missing.
Asuka rejected it as well, which is why she lay beside him.

>>149152638
Instrumentality is definitely stopped; that's why Rei falls apart. Everyone is dumped back to earth in the tang and given all the time they could ever want to come to terms with what they want in life. If they want to come back as individuals, they can. If they don't, they'll just remain tang. The very nature of Instrumentality precludes people from choosing to be free of it if it's been completed.

We only see Shinji and Asuka leave Instrumentality, but that doesn't mean more people can't leave. It only means they're the only ones we see that have left by that point.

>>149152467
"You" are not part of the "god" that is instrumentality. "You" are gone and are "remembered" forever, in a way.

>>149152458

>You're stuck in the abyss.

No. When you die, your brain matter decays and you seize to exist. There is no you and there is no abyss.

There's nothing and there's nothing that can perceive this nothing. Which makes worrying about death as an atheist rather pointless, because it's not like you are going to experience it or anything.

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>>149152458

>I honestly can't comprehend why you would choose to be a mortal being instead of living an eternal bliss as one with everything.

You wouldn't be living. At least you wouldn't be living according to the concept that you and I know. "You" would die in order to create this malformed spaghetti monster composed of emotions and thoughts doing absolutely nothing with itself.

I don't give a fuck if my actions matter in the grand scheme of things. They matter to me. I'm doing what I want, when I want, for better or worse (Mostly for worse). And just choosing to say "fuck it" and let go of everything and become Tang God cause it's taking the easy way is beta as fuck.

You're more beta than Shinji.

Let that sink in for a second.

>>149151906
What do you mean the moral justification? Instrumentality destroys us. It's as wrong as suicide or any other kind of self-destruction.

>>149152758

The thing is that in the original instrumentality plan, humanity was also supposed to leave earth. It's that part that is stopped, and humans (now in tanged form) falls back to earth.

That doesn't mean they aren't experiencing the essence of instrumentality though. They just didn't become a space traveling entity.

>>149152890
They didn't become an entity at all; at least not permanently. When Shinji rejecting Instrumentality, everyone fell down to earth as an individual within the tang.

Again, the very essence of Instrumentality means that, for people to make the decision to return and become individuals, then Instrumentality must not be completed. You completely lose all of your individuality and essentially die when you become a part of a completed Instrumentality. From that point, it becomes impossible to make any decisions for yourself because you are dead.

We know for a fact that people have the option to return, which means Instrumentality must have stopped for everyone.

>>149152857

>You're more beta than Shinji.

Being more beta than Shinji isn't exactly hard. Original NGE Shinji is (ironically) alpha as fuck.
>defender of humanity
>shrugs of extreme physical trauma to complete his mission
>regains his sense of self after merging with creepy space entity
>fourteen years old and already slaying puss like crazy
>rejected instrumentality and became an ubermench, someone who makes his own morals

Shinji is unironically one of the best protagonists ever produced in the history of human fiction. If NGE had been something else than a children's cartoon, Anno would have become internationally reknown as a modern shakespear.

>>149152857
Oh my fucking god this place is hilarious. What the fuck have I doing with my life?

People who say Instrumentality is like death, if that is so, then how come people were aware enough to choose to return from Instrumentality? Or had Instrumentality not yet finalized before Shinji interrupts it, therefore leaving people in some sort of limbo between ego and Instrumentality?

>>149153155
See>>149152989

>>149152801
Being remembered forever is a dream many mortal men yearn for.

>>149152989
So what differentiates Instrumentality from plain death? Why would SEELE be so keen on Instrumentality instead of just ending all life and getting the ordeal over with?

>>149153268
The Room of Guf is empty. If I recall correctly, there are no more (or too few) remaining souls to give to newborns. Humanity is ending.

>>149153268

SEELE wanted to transcend humanity by using unit 01 as a vessel for their souls.

>>149153268
>So what differentiates Instrumentality from plain death?
It's ego death. You technically still exist, but everything that makes you, you, is gone. You're basically just a cell that contributes a little bit of your personality and beliefs into God along with everything else everyone else mixes into it.

>Why would SEELE be so keen on Instrumentality instead of just ending all life and getting the ordeal over with?
They wanted to advance humanity, forcing them to evolve. They thought that whatever the result may be would be better than the stagnation of normal human life. Ideally, they would create a God who could explore the cosmos. This comes at the price of all of humanity, however.

>>149151906
>An eternity spent without a body or ego sounds superior to 70 years of growing old and dying into an eternal dark abyss.

That was the justification; this is just an opinion and it's not one Shinji and Asuka shared with the rest of the population, thereby suggesting that it's an opinion a lot of people might not have shared.

So, by interrupting Instrumentality, Shinji ends up giving humanity a choice as to how it wants to live.

It's not morally justifiable for him to deny the entire world's population the chance to live. When he ends it they have a chance to come back - otherwise they'll be turned into a singular being.

>>149154053
They were already dead though. The world was devastated by the second impact and humanity was doomed by all the environmental destruction.

>>149154114

There were still people living on Earth after second impact. They died because of third impact and instrumentality, but when Shinji destroyed the Lance of Longinus it mentions that they all have the ability to come back.

Without individuality there are no humans, having your own thoughts and desires is one of the most defining features of being a human.

Sounds pretty comfy being a cell of God. In the grand scheme of things, our existence is non-existant. We live for 80 years in a Universe that is 15 billion years old. And God knows how older it will get before time stops. Plot a chart, and try to find your existence in those 15 billion years. You'd be invinsible.

>>149154384
You'd be invisible whether you exist as a human for 80 years or you exist as a cell within a god for 1000. It's a waste of time to consider the worth of your life based on how it will be remembered; what matters is what you're doing with your life right now.

You can either live in the moment and make the best of it now, or you can take the easy way out and kill yourself.

>>149154384
Why does that matter though?

>>149153044
This, Anno is criminally underrated on a global scale

>>149154474
Does Instrumentality have an end? If it is indeed being one with God, then you'd exist outside of the realm of time.

>what matters is what you're doing with your life right now.
How will it matter? You live for a tiny amount of time. So tiny that you might aswell not have it. And then you die, where you lose that tiny nothing into absolute nothing. When considering the vast passage of time, you find sympathy in what the nihilists are saying. Most of them would jump in joy at the thought of Instrumentality.

>>149154604
It does not matter for others but it matters for you.

>>149154604
We're not talking about the Abrahamic God. Instrumentality is recombining the fruits of Life and Knowledge to create a full FAR, making the resulting being the most advanced creature in the universe. Even the FAR found themselves stagnating to their death, though.

>How will it matter?
How will it matter if you make up one of the cells on the ballsack of a god? It's pointless to talk about things mattering in the grand scheme of time or history books; what matters is the now, because you have nothing else. You can take what little you get or you can give it up entirely.

>>149154604
Nihilists are idiots though. They acknowledge the fact that true meaning is a non-existence, yet they still crave meaning more than anyone else. I don't believe my actions have meaning, in any way, shape, or form, but that doesn't matter to me. I don't need a greater being to administer meaning to my self and my life, I and my life are the only meaning I require. The universe is like a giant, shapeless sandbox. Just like in a videogame without rules, it has no purpose, but is still interesting to me and my own mind. Others can do what they want and create their own meaning, I do not require greater meaning as such a thing does not exist and is therefor irrelevant to me.

>>149155230

>I don't require meaning, but others who do are idiots

Edgy.

>>149155304
What? How is that edgy? It's just the truth, if you realize meaning is non-existent, but you make meaning the focus of your life anyway, you're a fucking idiot. Nihilists are the edgy "woe is me god is a lie" people.

I mean, in the actual real meaning of the word edgy, I suppose it is, because it's a line of thinking that goes against current culture, but in the buzzword sense you likely mean it, it's not really "edgy". I don't want to kill anyone, I don't see any need for that.

>>149155471

You have an absurd misunderstanding of what Nihilism is. By definition, Nihilism is about finding meaning. Nihilism first strips away all meaning from everything, you have to first learn that nothing has any sort of inherent worth and all things are without any deeper meaning. When you've come to the realization that nothing has meaning, you must next realize that a life without meaning cannot exist. Imagine yourself in the middle of a lake. Will you swim forward? backward? left or right? Every choice is possible, but if nothing has value, what choice do you make? Clearly you must choose something, because not choosing is a choice in itself and you will drown. So clearly a choice must be made, and clearly you as a human being have the desire to not drown so you choose to swim to shore. Not because your life has some intrinsic value that must be preserved, simply because you want to.

Nihilism is about finding your own values, free of the absurd belief that life or the universe has some deeper purpose. Nihilism is a tool that you use to remake yourself.

>>149155841
Well, sorry I misjudged it. Most of the people I have talked to about nihilism so far also had a very different understanding of it from you.

>>149156115

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there's plenty of self proclaimed Nihilists out there who who get stuck in a weird sort of limbo where they claim nothing has meaning while continuing to live their lives as though it does. You shouldn't judge a belief system by its most retarded practitioners, though. It's just like saying all Christians are bad because a few are hypocritical fanatics.

>>149151906
Because individuality the point of the whole fucking show

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>>149156517
Which is quite an acheivement for a show to attain such lasting popularity, considering this is Japan we're talking about: land of the hivemind.

>>149157674
It's escapism, it has to be a dream for the people

>>149157674
Japan is less of a hivemind than America is.

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cuz if no body how do sex

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>>149157980
The culturally interesting thing about Eva, is that it's a deconstruction of the Japanese/Confucian ideal of unified harmony. While America idolizes the rugged individual, Japan venerates the dutiful servant. I mean, for crying out loud, one of the symbols of yamato damashii is a dog who was so loyal/stupid he kept waiting at a train station for his dead master to return. NGE shows that it's out disunity that makes us human, and our disharmony that makes life lively.

Instrumentality is simply that japonic ideal brought to its ultimate realization as a reducto ad absurdum. NGE is therefore a rousing defense of individuality, symbolized by Shinji's refusal to furnish its completion, in a society that often devalues personal autonomy. It really is a brilliant piece of social commentary.

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>>149158472
I'm not familiar with the Yamato damashii, but there's this Futurama episode that has Seymour being loyal to Fry for 12 years until his death, it's heart breaking

>>149158472
But it's completely moot because the difficulty of human interaction is a result of human flaws.

>>149159267
>I'm not familiar with the Yamato damashii
PUNCH HARDER BOY

Shinji basically just didn't want to live in a "fake" world. Instrumentality wasn't necessarily fake, but it wasn't who Shinji was. This is why he decides to reject it, to give hope to individuality. Shinji basically had the same feelings a god or creator would have. Instrumentality implies just the thought of living, while living directly brings it out.

>>149159267
Yamato damashii basically translates as, "Japanese national spirit". It's the essential idea of what makes Japan, Japan. What is the unifying ideology of the country. Similar concepts include the "American Way" (USA), "Anglo-Saxon heritage" (UK), "Republican ideal" (France), and "neshama" (Jews).

>>149161049
>Yamato damashii basically translates as, "Japanese national spirit"

Then why the fuck didn't you just say that? Jesus, it's like reading some awful fucking subtitles.

>>149161270
Because that's the actual term you dumbass. How about you learn to google shit you god damn nigger.

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>>149153044
I think my favorite part might be that he really was set up all his life to become a classical sort of hero, the kind that are great for being empowered to do great things and do what they want until they're kings. Right from the first episode it's given to him to decide who lives and who dies, EVA-01 will perform miracles for him if he gets in or it's also content to let an Angel run roughshod over Nerv if he doesn't. Circumstances practically demand that he rise up and become a legend, and he's motivated by appeals to justice instead, even while God embodied in his mother and his mother embodied in God were serving him the world and everything in it.

>>149161270
Because it's not an exact translation. The word has very heavy cultural connotations. It's also WAY more politicized than most of the other examples I gave there. The term is often associated with the far-right, so it's often referred to obliquely rather than by name. It is NOT a word to throw out there in the middle of polite, mixed company.

>>149161049
Oh I see
We have roman heritage here in Italy I guess it might be similar
It's not something that important though

>>149161574
Yeah, but like I said, it's also somewhat ethnically charged, like "Manifest Destiny" and "Chosen People". It implies a degree of superiority over others that I'm not sure exists with "Roman heritage".

>>149161724
>Manifest Destiny
>ethnically charged

Literally what the fuck are you talking about?

>>149153044
my fucking sides
>this is what EVAfags believe

Today /a/ gets technical about the philosophy and implications set by a show 20 years ago.

>>149161724
>not sure exists with Roman heritage
it does
Patriotic Italians have a crazy superiority complex over everyone else

>>149161918
Welcome to /a/.

>>149161918
Better then unironically spamming 3DPD porn and complain about board culture.

>>149161899
he's not wrong. there's not a single person in this thread who would fare better in his circumstances. you can't just shrug off a lifetime of shitty treatment and depression like that.

>>149159267
Seymour is based on Hachiko
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachik%C5%8D

There are a few similar cases but Hachiko is the most famous one.

>>149161918
>Today
This shit has been happening for as long as I remember.
And I have been here six years now and I bet it went on before I was here.

>>149162069
>>149162237
Too true. It's almost kinda funny to find a real discussion on this board anymore, even if it is on a odd subject such as this one.

>>149162147
>based on a real story
Beautiful, this brings me the feels
http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/02/11/hachiko-japans-most-loyal-dog-finally-reunited-with-owner-in-heartwarming-new-statue-in-tokyo/
If instrumentality happened they'd be together

>>149162411
This is the only subject

>>149153044
>Being more beta than Shinji isn't exactly hard. Original NGE Shinji is (ironically) alpha as fuck.

holly shit this level of delusion.

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>>149161793
I don't know what bubble you've been living in, but today the term is often associated in academic discourse with the genocide of the natives and the taking of land from people by force, all done under greed by another name.

>>149161918
And people still talk about the philosophy of works written hundreds of years ago and the implications of works written thousands of years ago. That's what it means to be art and not merely entertainment.

>>149161793
Wait are you serious? Do you not know the the asians in general see as their manifest destiny to rule over each others as the asian maste race? This is why Chinks, Gooks and Japs hate each other so violently, they each see the others as subhumans