Explain how a human beat a demigod It doesn't make sense to me.

>>148129768
Because he's a high school student and has a harem of generic anime girls and magic plot armor and he was written specifically to counter the strongest servant. Fate is retarded.

>>148130023
How does he counter Gilgamesh? They both have almost the same ability

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>>148129768
Explain to me how a human can take on all of hell and win.

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>>148130083

That demigod is stupid and prideful and didnt' do anything until his primary form of attack was nullified.

>>148129768
Two words: Gary Stu

>>148130083
Gilgamesh is a smug, cocky asshole.

He could have probably killed anyone in the series easily if he wanted to from the beginning.

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>>148129768
Maybe you're just new to anime/manga/fiction?

>>148130083
UBW is a bit quicker than GoB and the swords are all ready for the use, so even if GoB has better equipment inside that advantage is nullified. Then add that Gilgamesh is just average at close combat and he is a prideful guy who didn't even tried to go at full power until it was too late.

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>>148130259

>>148129768
The human happens to have the exact power needed to counter the demigod's own power

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>>148129768
Because swords

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>>148129768
>Explain how a human beat a demigod

Just... beating him?

>>148129768
It is a PORN GAME anon!
Anime adapted a PORN GAME! Of course the story has plotholes and characters are retarded.

>>148130112
But John. You ARE the demons.

He's a sword-man hybrid in peak physical condition relying on his waifu's mana battery to unleash an ability which overwrites external reality with swords, the only reason Shirou doesn't qualify as a demi-god himself is that he wasn't born from divine blood.

>>148130083
>guy always overwhelms his opponent with endless swords
>suddenly other guy also has endless swords
Seems really simple.

Shirou is a sword not a human.

>>148129768
hes not a normal human

You can feel burning Shonen manga spirit through struggles of Archer vs Shirou
There's no obstacle to a hero who made up his mind

Explain how a human becomes a god like Gil did? Everything you can describe as a 'mythological' event doesn't need to be explained. Humans beating gods NEVER needed to be explained.

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>>148130223
>sword autist

>>148130826
>porn game
>implying the porn is worth mentioning
Aside from memes, nothing.

>>148129768
Because Gilgamesh sucked? The only reason he was any good was his magical treasury and that stupid looking spear, but he's a prideful guy that doesn't have a counter for UBW and basically he's stupid.

>>148130259
Imagine if he just kept Ea out and revved up at all times.

>>148129768
Because goldy is, at the very least, mildly retarded

>>148130083
He doesn't quite "counter" him - he simply matches him by copying him.

In both the VN in the anime, its simple: during the fight Gilgamesh hesitates. He doesn't want to admit that he has to use Ea, his most powerful weapon and noble phantasm, against a highschool student with gimmick copy magic.

His pride was his downfall.

>>148131470

>book has a sex scene in it
>movie has a sex scene in it

Not sure why this complaint is so common. Fucking HBO has on screen sex, many novels depict the sex in the same manner as FSN (describing the sensation and enjoyment of the character). Have these people never read any books? Sure not all describe the sex in detail, but many will, ridiculously common example ASOFAI, and the fucker is a best seller.

I will agree that the language used to describe the sex in FSN is terrible. I don't know if that was the translators weird vocabulary choice, or a literal 1:1.

>>148132576
Most people on /a/ have only watched anime (mostly TV anime), so sex being normal in other mediums is new to them.

>>148129768
bad writing

>>148132673
A character losing for reasons consistent with their personality and background as well as long foreshadowed plot elements is the opposite of bad writing.

>>148129768
Might be the big ass prana battery inside him.

>>148131365

Demigod, presumably one parent was a god. Same as other demigods of old pantheons. Not sure what the full lore on gils origin is.

>>148132718

Contrived? Maybe.

>wears armour in other routes and fights
>under estimates shirou/archer multiple times
>knows that archer class can go solo for a while
>previously identified that shirou is archer and they have the same combat capabilities, he was fucking nearby during the UBW fight

He just gets very fucking sloppy, Zero portrays him more magnificent/manipulative bastard. Now he's too arrogant to and fails miserably.

There's way more bad ends than good ends. You just look at the result and think it was easy.

With some fairy tale ideologies that almost never work in real life. Shirou would get an army of lawyers sicked on him.

>>148132576
this, the first episode or two of Game of Thrones has more sex in it than the entirety of F/SN and F/HA

>>148132006
Waste of prmana, there aren't infinite orphans under the church to drain energy from.

>>148133245
It's not even good sex in Game of Thrones either, it would legitimately be a better show without it.
It's mostly just pointless fluff.

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>>148132576
most anime watchers don't expect porn because most adapted literature don't have it. Also most are retarded and/or underage
It's easy to meme porn game then to meme game of thrones.

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>>148133000
There's also the whole grail mud business. Indicating he may have lost some of his rationality.

>"This would drive any other servant crazy, don't worry, I'm not crazy."
>[Gives crazy eyes]

>>148133064
>Shirou would get an army of lawyers sicked on him.
That's literally how Archer died.

>>148133719

Why the fuck did he submit anyway?

There seems to be two version of this, he just gives in because some reason compels him to or the church/clock tower send people good enough to fight and kill him.

The lawyers bit does fit if you agree with the RRRULES of RM users must die for the greater good.

>>148133866
The Clocktower probably was behind his execution, but it's entirely possible they used instruments embedded in corporations and governments bring about Shirou's execution. That'd make more sense than risking a top field agent on some rouge mage that's been powered up by the the World. Especially when he's the sort of "fool" to let himself get trapped in a moral dilemma.

Cuz anime.

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>>148129768
cause it's trash

>>148134923
This was fucking amazing to watch. It was so obvious that he didn't want to be there.

>>148129768
You've never read stories of humans beating gods?

>>148134923
Is he actually reading it?

>>148135208
Yeah and you can tell he is really confused reading it

Nasu basically apologized about that bullshit. He's trying to wank Gil now in every appearance. If you want to read "Gil done right", go and read Fragments with Ozymandias. Same staple but better executed as OP boss ancient golden king.

FGO pretty much acknowledges they are counterpart of each others.

>>148135338
As he should be.

>>148135393
>Fragments
Jesus, at least recommend CCC.

>>148135208
https://youtu.be/jp8Px8-Thk0

>>148129768
Watch the show retard. Shirou won because he can literally alter the world into a place where he's a god-like being that can make swords fly around and shit.

>>148130083
Incorrect. Gil can make weapons come out of his Gate of Babylon, but it has limits. Shirou, while in Unlimited Blade Works Reality Marble, has literally no limit on the number of swords available to him. Gil sends 40 swords at Shirou? Shirou makes 40 swords fly from the ground and deflect them. Gil has to use mana to make each sword come out of the gate (it's a small amount, but still costs him mana) but Shirou, once in UBW, has no cost to control his unlimited blades. Over time Shirou has a clear advantage, where Gil runs out of swords or mana while Shirou actually has unlimited of both (while in his Reality Marble, where HE is basically god).

I'm done responding to bait today.

>>148129768
On top of Shirou's massively powerful Reality Marble, he also has unlimited tries to beat Gil since Fate is a visual novel that goes through routes. Note that there are only a few "good ends", and 40 "bad ends". Shirou fails more often than not. It just so happens that when his abilities, luck, power, and Gil's ignorance all line up he has a shot to beat him. A million monkeys typing on typewriters will eventually type your post (I guess you proved that when you typed your post, you fucking ape) and a million Shirous will eventually beat a Gil.

>>148133000

Please, in Zero he lets Lancelot blow up his ship

Gil was always a fuck up

>>148132576
Are Fatetards really this retarded? How many shows and movies have you seen where bunch of teenage girls are taking cum on their tits? Stop pretending it's there for artistic value. It's a blatant fanservice so that VN could fucking sell.

>>148135393

> Nasu basically apologized about that bullshit.

Citation needed

>>148129768
Well. You're "demigod" is only ranked 7.7.

Shirou becomes archer who is ranked at least 9.

>>148135697
Why is it playing Stardust and not the Emiya theme?
Why are English accents so sexy?

>>148135904
Obviously movies and television can't show off things like that, but plenty of books have graphic sex scenes in them. I guess it depends on whether you think a vn is more like a movie or a novel

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>>148129768
only humans can defeat monsters.

>>148136041
Oh yeah, it gets pretty graphic in a lot of books. It's just written like a bad porn fanfiction in Fate. I don't really have problem with the content itself, just the presentation. And Nasu should've been unapologetic about it.

>>148129768
Shirou isn't human, he's a sword. Literally, not figuratively.

>>148129768

How does a human beat a dragon?

How does a demigod beat a god?

>>148136125
If I'm remembering correctly they didn't beat him, and the only one that came close turned into a monster with that Jesus Needle?

Pretty sure even the other version of Helsing has Alucard beating the big bad monster himself instead of humans.

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>>148136125
GOD DAMN IT. I still can't see this image without seeing the tiny black dots as crossed eyes. Alucard you silly bastard.

>>148136277
You're not thinking of what you should be. Alucard straight up says the reason the priest with the Jesus Needle can't kill Alucard is that he was no longer a human, and only a human could beat a monster like him.

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damn my scrotum tingles whenever a retard fails to understand that Gil's power was specifically designed to fail to Shirou's power. It was made so that Gil would be insanely OP, and Shirou's decent power would perfectly counter it.

>>148129768
Why didn't Gilgamesh just open a bunch of GOB portals inside Shirou's body and wreck him inside out?

>>148136695
GOB doesn't work that way. He can't just put portals inside of other people, they appear near him at all times.

>>148136340
But the Priest Alexander didn't have enough power to beat Alucard with all his overpowered bullshit powers, that's why he used the Jesus Needle.

Even if you say that he could manage with all of Alucard's eaten people fighting the Nazis instead of being his 99x Lives, the only reason he even has a chance like that is because the robotic Hitler and his inhumane friends created a situation that allowed it.

Does he have some weird power that makes him unable to be killed by anything other than a human? Or is it just philosophy?

>>148136695
Why doesn't Shirou materialize swords inside Gilgamesh a rip him apart?

>>148135778
>because he can literally alter the world into a place where he's a god-like being that can make swords fly around and shit
That's the thing that doesn't make sense. He can only use magic for what, several months top since he met Rin? Then suddenly he can use high tier move that only servants/high tier magus can use it.

>>148136820
>But the Priest Alexander didn't have enough power to beat Alucard with all his overpowered bullshit powers, that's why he used the Jesus Needle.

Not true at all, the Priest could have killed him with enough perseverance and virtue. God was on his side, and when he abandoned God God abandoned him. Alucard and Alexander just never had a FULL fight before, they always got interupted. The closest they got to a full fight before that was when Alexander DID kill Alucard, he just didn't kill him thoroughly enough.

>Does he have some weird power that makes him unable to be killed by anything other than a human? Or is it just philosophy?

A bit of both, but really it's philosophy that Alucard internalized as true. Like, mice don't have any special power over Elephants, but Elephants think mice are a threat, so they became a threat. Mice can make Elephants run out of their own territory, just because of the mental state of the Elephant. Alucard is similar, in that he sort of wants to die and sort of hates himself, so a human with enough power could probably kill him, unlike a monster. See, Alucard HATES monsters (like himself) so he goes all out on them, but he wouldn't go all out on a human.

>>148136987
Did you actually read the VN?

1. In the Fate Route, he doesn't properly gain his strength or control his Reality Marble. That's normal.

2. In the UBW route, his future self (which already HAS spent a full lifetime fighting and using his reality marble) comes into contact with him. This causes a sort of "learning by contact", where he learns things he shouldn't know by coming into contact with a future version of himself (although the UBW Shirou can't grow up into Archer). Basically, Shirou in UBW can use his Reality Marble because Archer taught him with real teaching combined with magic buffs from contacting his future self.

3. In Heaven's Feel, he literally gets Archer's arm attached to him. That gives him an insane power boost, since magic circuits and body-memory play a huge role in Nasuverse magic.

Shirou didn't learn magic in a few months, he floundered with it for about a decade, and then Rin trained him a bit, and depending on the route he either fails at it or gets a boost thanks to his future self existing next to him.

>>148136996
>Alexander DID kill Alucard
Exactly man, he's "died" lots of times it's just that he doesn't stay that way. It's hard to imagine a human managing to kill Alucard, though Alexander was probably the best person to try.
He's like the literal embodiment of "He wouldn't die, even if you killed him."

>he wouldn't go all out on a human.
Tell that to all those SWAT members man, they didn't deserve that.

>>148137134
>Did you actually read the VN?

The answer is never yes. Every thread.

>>148137262
>Tell that to all those SWAT members man, they didn't deserve that.

...True. I think the way to say it is "Alucard wouldn't go all out on a Human he think is worthy of slaying him". Like, those SWAT dudes where just in his way, nuisances that were between him and a fun fight with a Yu-Gi-Oh! player. Alexander is a uncorrupted human that Alucard respected a bit. Really I suggest you re-watch the scenes around the final fight with Alucard vs Alexander, Alucard spells a decent amount of this shit out.

>>148129768
Gil's only power is that he inherited a bunch of neat toys from his daddy.

>>148137134
So you're saying he can do high tier spell by doing "training arc" and got some "power-up"? Sounds like a shitty shounen manga to me. And yet fatefags praising it like it's a pinnacle of writing.

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>>148137904

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>>148137904

>>148137904
You clearly haven't read it and can't judge it based on a synopsis alone.

He can't do a high tier spell, first of all. He has a Reality Marble, which is when someone can make the real world around them transform to conform to how THEY see things.

I'll explain a bit more about WHY Shirou has this power, since you don't understand it:

1. As a young child, Shirou almost died when thousands of people around him burned to death, including his family, right infront of his eyes.

2. The person that saved him was an assassin and mage, who really hated himself and failed at being a hero (he caused the big kahooey that killed all those people around Shirou on accident, for example). This guy raised Shirou and taught him some basic magic shit and Shirou decided to be a hero since his adoptive father didn't get to be one.

3. Shirou's adoptive father dies, which fucks Shirou up even more.

4. Shirou has massive mental problems, from 1, 2, and 3 on top of generally wanting to be a hero but not really understanding the concept.

5. Shirou gets raised the rest of the way by a mob princess/teacher, who knows nothing of magic.

6. Shirou continues practicing magic, but he knows almost nothing about it and really fucks up.

7. Shirou develops a weird personality, he wants to save others so badly that he basically stops caring about himself. He'll do anyone's chores for free if they ask, and would basically die to save another person if he could.

8. THEN the war starts, and he learns (behind the scenes of the VN) about magic from Rin, who corrects the fucked up shit he incorrectly assumed.

9. Shirou's warped perception makes him the ideal candidate for a Reality Marble, because he literally thinks of himself as a tool of justice, a sword. So, after decades of training he'll learn to make this RM work.

10. Dead Archer-Shirou comes back to fight the Grail War, and that time-loop fucks up "our" Shirou, who now can do the shit he really shouldn't be able to do.

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>>148136277
>If I'm remembering correctly they didn't beat him
I'm actually talking about Van Helsing

>Shirou is a god inside UBW!

EMIYA, a servant infinitely stronger than Shirou, gets fucked by Heracles inside UBW.

You fate-fags can't do anything right.

>>148138377
>gets fucked by Heracles inside UBW.
He kills him six times without UBW since that's anime-only shit.

That's hardly "getting fucked". Saber could barely manage two lives without Caliburn, Golden Sword of Plot Advancement.

>>148138377
>gets fucked by Heracles inside UBW
My fucking god, have ANY of you "f-fatefags" spouting secondaries actually read the VN? Archer using UBW against Heracles is anime original.

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>>148136306
OOGLY GOOGLY

>>148135393
He was so much more terrifying in Zero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uua5SPPTwdo

I liked the idea of humans needing to sneak around servants, because they're not really a match for them.

>>148138377
He's LIKE a god inside his Reality Marble, but that doesn't mean he's impossible to kill. Hercules himself was famous for killing many beings thought to be immortal or hard to kill. He killed Antaeus, a giant who fucking literally had the power of "cannot be harmed in any way while touching the Earth". I shouldn't have to mention he completed his 12 labors, including slaying the Nemean lion and the fucking hydra of all things.

Gods can die, infact in many mythologies they DO die quite easily. Hercules is OP as fuck, he's killed gods in his own myths so there's no reason to claim him killing Emiya is somehow supposed to look bad on Emiya. Don't forget that Emiya DID kill Hercules multiple times, and Hercules didn't have 12 lives when he was alive, that was an ability from the grail system to represent his trials.

>>148138377
I think DBZ power levels might be more to your liking.

Looking back at FZ, what was the reason Maiya was Kiritsugu's lover?
Was there any reason why Kiritsugu didnt suffer from the geas scroll he used even tho he actually planned Kayneth's assassination?
Gil's random anti world sword.
Assassin not killing Waver for some reason during the King's Dialogue.
Why didnt Lancer destroy Berserker's jet sooner?
Why did Gil have a spaceship?
Why the fuck did Lancelot lose when he was dominating Saber?
Why is Kayneth using a normal delivery for something so important as a Servant's catalyst?
Why was the grail corrupted anyway?
Who the hell is Angra Mainyu?
Why can Ilya talk with her dead mother?
Why did Gil survive?
If Lancelot thought Saber was the best king why was he so obsessed with killing her?
Why was he able to fly when he kidnapped Iri?
Didnt Aoi know that they would try to kill each other when Tokiomi entered the war and later she saw Kariya being a Master as well?
Was there any reason for Sakura's torture other than "it just happens that way"?
Was there any point in the conversation between Kirei and Zouken?I mean, the only foreshadowing for the ritual having a flaw was actually omitted for that conversation.

>>148138825
>Looking back at FZ, what was the reason Maiya was Kiritsugu's lover?

Maiya's a former child soldier Kiritsugu took in and gave a purpose to. A lot of the other questions, such as Angra Mainyu's identity, are basic if you read the visual novels, or just the Type-Moon wiki page on him.

>>148138825
Bad Writing

>>148135778
>watch the show

baited again

>>148138674
>He's LIKE a god inside his Reality Marble
And yet we know that Bazett and Shiki could kick his ass. I guess god are pretty weak.

>>148138825
I'm no expert but some of these have clear answers from memory:

>Assassin not killing Waver for some reason during the King's Dialogue.

The assassins were not sent to kill, but to be killed. They weren't trying to kill them, which is why they killed the ladle instead.

>Why did Gil have a spaceship?

Vimana is an actual ship from the legends of Gilgamesh. you also asked about Ea, which is the name of a god in Gil's legends, but technically not "a world breaking weapon".

>Why is Kayneth using a normal delivery for something so important as a Servant's catalyst?

He's a fucking idiot. Maybe he didn't care, or didn't think it through, or thought hiding it in plain sight would work.

>Why was the grail corrupted anyway? Who the hell is Angra Mainyu

In past wars the grail got fucked when people decided to summon an "Avenger" class spirit, Angra Mainyu, which literally filled the grail with "All of the evil in the world". Google Angra Mainyu.

>Why can Ilya talk with her dead mother?

She sort of can't, but the thing you're referring to exists because neither of them are human, they're basically dolls designed to become a Holy Grail.

>Why did Gil survive?

All of the Evils in the World couldn't fully corrupt him. If you're talking about why he survived 10 years, Kotomine had a basement full of mana-battery children for Gil.

>If Lancelot thought Saber was the best king why was he so obsessed with killing her?

Read the legends of Arthur. Saber let Lancelot down when she "died", and he went sort of crazy.

>Why was he able to fly when he kidnapped Iri?
Becides Saber they're SPIRITs. They don't have real bodies. A command seal order him to do carry Iri, and that's miracle-level magic.

>Was there any reason for Sakura's torture other than "it just happens that way"?

Those worms contain the magic of the Matou family. They didn't want "a magic girl", they wanted "a Matou mage". Sakura wasn't a Matou, so they used worms to "make" her into one.

>>148139244
Everyone but Gil could absolutely wreck his shit.

Actually Gil could wreck his shit too but then he wouldn't be a huge jobber and it wouldn't be a true Nasu story.

>>148139244
Bazett has a generations-old power that literally reverses reality, she could kill the strongest being in the universe if they weren't immune to her power. She's strong on her own, but no match for Shirou's UBW without her balls of steel.

Shiki can literally see death, she can kill THE PLANET EARTH or even ENTIRE CONCEPTS. That's god-level too.

>>148139254
>Kotomine had a basement full of mana-battery children for Gil.
Kotomine just did that for kicks. Gil was incarnated and didn't need a mana supply for day to day life.

>>148138825
>Was there any reason why Kiritsugu didnt suffer from the geas scroll he used even tho he actually planned Kayneth's assassination?
He didn't actually kill Kayneth, Maiya did it so it's ok.
>Assassin not killing Waver for some reason during the King's Dialogue.
Assassins are literally always retarded and never assassinate masters because plot reasons
>Why did Gil have a spaceship?
Because he's gil
>Why is Kayneth using a normal delivery for something so important as a Servant's catalyst?
He's retarded and thought an honorable opponent wouldn't bother trying to steal his catalyst.
>Why was the grail corrupted anyway?
Izenberns summoned the angry manjew, who corrupted the grail
>Was there any reason for Sakura's torture other than "it just happens that way"?
That's how Matou could ensure he'd have a grail for the war, by placing one of his worms in her heart or whatever.
Most of the questions are answered somewhere in fate anyways.

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>>148139314
Gil might not have needed it, but it certainly helped and gave him the extra mana required to actually fight come the next Holy Grail War.
I forgot my image before, so I'll post it now.

>>148136212

> It's just written like a bad porn fanfiction in Fate.

Again I don't know if that's a translation issue or nasu is bad at metaphors/descriptors for sex. The choice of words in the TM translation is weird as fuck, but you get the idea of whats happening. Most of use on /a/ don't know the language so we can't comment on how well it's originally delivered. The TM translation most of us have read is a crude fan translation, a repetitive dry fucking thing at times. And the sex scenes use descriptors I don't think you'd find else where.

>>148139551
>Again I don't know if that's a translation issue or nasu is bad at metaphors/descriptors for sex.

It's both, but mostly Nasu

Someone post petrified sea cucumber.

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>>148139551
It's totally Nasu. I'm not fluent in Japanese but I understand enough to know that he uses insane phrasing and especially terrifying metaphors. He LOVES metaphors, and really metaphors don't make good porn.

The translation isn't perfect, but it's damn good and it's completely fair to say that the sex scenes in Fate are all basically padded with metaphors to hide the fact that Nasu isn't good at writing erotic stuff.

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>>148139696
I wonder if Nasu and Takeuchi maintained this system to write h-scenes in Fate.

>>148139380
>because plot reasons
It's called bad writing.

>>148139812
There is a lot of that in Fate, it comes with the territory. Lots of stuff that is good and or well received is poorly written, just look at Harry Potter.

There is bad writing but the good writing makes up for it.

>>148139812

I think you can nitpick just about any media in existence with 'Character knowing X, why didn't they do Y, it would have ended things faster'. Doubly so for 'cold hard killer doesn't just massacre everyone (and confirm death) completely and conveniently only maims MC-kun so they can fight back later'.

>>148138825
I'll fill some of the gaps:

>Gil's random anti world sword.

Ea isn't exactly random, in that he consistently has it in his Fate appearances. Gil shows up in fate more often than Saber does, honestly. Even in Prisma Illya he waves Ea around.

>Why didnt Lancer destroy Berserker's jet sooner?

Do you know how hard it is to destroy a noble phantasm? Berserker made the jet into a NP, which made it super tough. Lancer probably didn't want to risk it any sooner.

>Why the fuck did Lancelot lose when he was dominating Saber?

Lancelot was a Berserker who almost gained sanity for a second. Bersekers get a HUGE buff from madness, so his clarity cost him enough points to die to Saber. Seeing Lancelot motivated Saber even more, since Lancelot visually reminded her of exactly what she wanted to prevent by getting the grail.

>Who the hell is Angra Mainyu?
A village scape-goated a dude to represent all the worlds evils, basically they said "You're Satan now". The same sort of thing would happen if someone tried to summon Satan, he would corrupt the grail.

>If Lancelot thought Saber was the best king why was he so obsessed with killing her?

Lancelot thought Saber failed him and her country. If he was rational he would have probably yelled at her, but he was a Berseker so he was literally insane and his anger basically made him want to kill her VERY much.

>Why was he able to fly when he kidnapped Iri?

A command seal can make a spirit fly very easily, and even a broad command like "kidnap Iri" would let him fly if that was the best way to do it. Read the Fate wiki's article on Command Seal for more info.

>Didnt Aoi know that they would try to kill each other when Tokiomi entered the war and later she saw Kariya being a Master as well?

It's worth noting that Tokiomi was fighting the war for PRIDE. Aoi wouldn't cheat him of his prideful victory.

>>148139978
You're on /a/, where people think Frodo memery "why didn't X just do Y?" is actual critique.

>fatetards

>>148138220
So reality marble isn't a high tier (spell/move/whatever terms you want to use) ? Why do high tier servants/magus/being use them then?

>1-7
Boohoo sad backstory
>8
"training arc"
>9-10
"power up" out of nowhere

Also,
7. That's not a "weird personality". It's called selflessness. It's literally a trope that has been existed since the old times. And yet you fatefags acted like it's unique to your faggot MC in every thread. Is Fate your first fiction or something?

>>148139871
>but the good writing makes up for it
Name one?

>>148140057
What did he mean by this?

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>>148139551
I think Nasu is just bad at metaphors and similes. The fight scenes have the same problem too. You can clearly tell he's trying to be majestic and stuff but it just comes off as clunky and pedestrian.

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>>148140141
TakaJun's writing is not Nasu's writing.

>>148140117
>Name one?
Instance of good writing?
That's kind of difficult to do. The world building in Fate is really well done, Shirou's whole character arc is really really fucking good, the SOL sections are actually, in my opinion, well formed sequences of dialogue between somewhat complex characters.

Shirou's interactions with Kotomine are great, and I actually really enjoyed Mapo Tofu.

>>148140096

So reality marble isn't a high tier (spell/move/whatever terms you want to use) ? Why do high tier servants/magus/being use them then?

Reality Marbles are literally when someone's mind/will/whatever can overpower reality. It can't be taught/learned at all, it's something that a person can just BE. Like, Shirou is so warped that he's literally changes the world around him when his RM activates. Reality Marbles are basically an oddity that "modern magic" in the Fate universe doesn't really understand yet, outside of that they exist and what they can theoretically do. Sort of like our modern world knows Black Holes exist, but we don't really understand why or how they do what they do, just that they're totally a thing.

I won't bother responding to the bait in the middle of your comment. I already said Shirou doesn't have a "training arc" for magic. He DOES train with weapons, but his (actual) magic training is pretty much all offscreen. He also never gets power ups out of nowhere, it's always from his future self in a clear and defined way.

>That's not a "weird personality". It's called selflessness. It's literally a trope that has been existed since the old times. And yet you fatefags acted like it's unique to your faggot MC in every thread. Is Fate your first fiction or something?

Shirou isn't simply selfless. He literally just doesn't consider himself as a person most of the time, his mind is so warped that he basically thinks of himself as a sword (subconsciously). A selfless person would help others before themselves, Shirou would sacrifice himself completely for others. One big difference is that he doesn't factor himself into shit even when he SHOULD, like when Rin gets pissed at him and says shit like "if you die I'll be sad", he doesn't quite understand it and has to think to realize "oh fuck that's right I'm totally a person and I'm important to Rin, so plan be-a-suicide-bomber will have to wait".

>>148140248
The SOL is great, Fate/Hollow Ataraxia totally proves that the fight scenes and waifus aren't the only good things about Fate.

>>148140096

RM users are marked for 'sealing' AKA being killed by the church and magic association. RMs if given enough juice rewrite reality. Earth as you know it, is this rocks RM, it's gaia's version of reality. It's rare as fuck from a numerical standpoint and an innate magic, not one you look up in a book and cast, you either do or don't have the capacity to cast one. What's needed is time to draw it out and use it on a larger scale. Like how shirou thinks he's just tracing, he's not tracing. He's projecting from his RM.

>sad backstory
Yea sure, gives the general motivation and how he dabbled in magic.
>training arc
He needs one badly, he's a fucking shit mage.
>power up
This is where you loose me. You'd know the rules and context of why EMIYA is summoned if you've read or even watched anything. It follows the rules of the world they spend 10 hours explaining to you.

You don't have to like the RPG/pen and paper style wall of text for rules, but that's how this universe is. Shirou is the redman is blunt as fuck if you even pay attention to the epilogue and explanation of the ritual and what servants are.

>>148140096
not him, but you're still trying to give an opinion on another synopsis, albeit a more fleshed out one. If you're just going to make these assumptions and generalizations without actually having read the VN, then there's not much anyone can do for you.

>>148140377

I don't think nasu went far enough with the insane selfless thing. Might just be a cultural thing.

He does deny helping people. He will help is he knows them and considers them friends/colleagues, he doesn't just get side tracked on the way to school to help fucking everyone. He may want to aspire to being global justice man, but he's aware he can't be in multiple places at once, even if he wants to.

He does play the double chivalrous idiot for a while and doesn't care if he dies helping others, that's just sort of the normal from my perspective for people who want to help in that manner. They simply don't question the results, but the now is 'I must do this'. Which is where I think the culture clash might come in.

I just finished zero and UBW. Do I wait for the Heaven's Feel movie/s or play the VN?

>>148131365
He is 2/3 god don't ask

>>148140633

Both are missing large chunks of characterization, as with anything, consume the source. UBW was still missing things.

>>148140633
Play the VN.

Even when Heaven's Feel is all out on bluray in 4 years or more you'll still be missing the Fate route, which DEEN butchered massively.

It'll explain all the shit you see secondaries complaining about, and the 40 bad endings are mostly great, and obviously VN-only.

>>148140377
Different guy that also has not read the VN here

>Reality Marbles are literally when someone's mind/will/whatever can overpower reality.

>2. In the UBW route, his future self (which already HAS spent a full lifetime fighting and using his reality marble) comes into contact with him. This causes a sort of "learning by contact", where he learns things he shouldn't know by coming into contact with a future version of himself (although the UBW Shirou can't grow up into Archer). Basically, Shirou in UBW can use his Reality Marble because Archer taught him with real teaching combined with magic buffs from contacting his future self.

Why would contacting his future self change anything if it is more of a state of mind rather than through training. I can follow if there is a sort of retroactive training idea if perhaps the future changes the past. What I don't get is this: how did his contact with his future self change hi sense of self? Did he start to believe even more that he was a tool or am I missing something?

>>148140633
Play the VNs. F/SN, then F/HA then Tsukihime.

Then, watch Carnival Phantasm.

>>148140697

You haven't fucking watched UBW have you?

I will kill my young self because regret and tantrums. Fuck you older dead me, my path is my own even if I wind up dead in the same circumstances as you. The exchange is one of cynicism vs idealism. It's simple as fuck thought experiment, how would you act if older you came back to relay information? Take their advice, option 3 or say fuck you?

>>148140697
https://sakugabooru.com/data/cf509cd13e72efc273b7446b42b41e9e.webm

>>148140676
>>148140688
>>148140711
Thanks I'll check it out.
I remember hearing something about wierd or awkward about the VN translation. Is that still an issue?

>>148140697

Shirou ALWAYS thought he was a tool (well, always would start sometime after his adoptive father died, but still).

It's a weird thing, but the basic idea is explained very well in the VN: When Archer and Shirou touch each other, bits and pieces of Archer are transmitted to Shirou, because they are the same person and the magic circuits and shit talk to each other as if they were one body. At first it's just seen in Shirou's dreams and such, and he doesn't really understand it, but in the big fight between Shirou and Archer in Illya's castle Shirou is gaining "memory" (both knowledge and muscle memory) from Archer with every sword clash, every blow. Through this, Shirou lessens the gap throughout the fight, and at the end of the fight Shirou has advanced enough to manifest his own (still weaker) UBW.

It helps that he saw Archer's UBW. Think of it this way: In Shirou's mind, UBW already exists but is an unclear idea. When he sees Archer's version of UBW, his mind says "hey I recognize this, this is in me too", and it just sort of connects. It's like if you don't do something for a long time and forget it, but then you see it again and it floods back to you. UBW was already a part of Shirou (he draws from it whenever he "projects", which is really him pulling shit from UBW) but he didn't "remember" it because nothing sparked the memories that didn't exist yet. On his own Shirou would eventually learn to understand himself and project his reality over the real one, but our Shirou didn't have time for that so Archer's presence was a substitute.

Shirou also steals Archer's UBW speech and makes an OC donut steel mantra to psyche himself up for his own UBW, the idea behind it is that the mantra is muscle memory for the brain and his mind sort of unleashes his reality marble when he says the mantra, sort of like how your brain just knows how to drive once you learn how, you don't need to consciously think to drive once you get good at it.

>>148140999
Alright, that makes a lot more sense to me.

Thanks, Anon

>>148140463
>It follows the rules of the world they spend 10 hours explaining to you.
If only it was just 10 hours

>>148140995

Yes. See >>148140170
>>148140141.

>>148140995
>>148141235
The message gets across just fine, and your only other option is learning moon.

>>148130083
UBW has a slightly higher 'fire rate' than GoB, which means Shirou can counter GoB without going into the defensive. Thanks to being able to inherit knowledge of how to wield them from any sword with history that he wields, as a swordsman he has a natural advantage over Gil, who doesn't really know how to really use any of his weapons outside of Ea/Enkidu.

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>>148129768
>Explain how a human beat a demigod
It doesn't matter because Nasu said Tohno Shiki can beat said human that can beat said demigod.
So Tohno Shiki can defeat Servants.

>>148137904
No he didn't do training. Archer was the one who trained and finally got and mastered Tracing which resulted into Unlimited Blade Works. Then Archer came into contact with Shirou and slowly gave him Archer's knowledge and techniques.

>>148141268
Sure it gets the message across but it's a worse version of the story. Prose counts for a lot.

>>148138377
But EMIYA never used UBW against Heracles and still killed him 6 times.

>>148141305
I completely agree, but he isn't gonna learn Japanese so it's a moot point.

;_;

Gilgamesh wasn't serious and didn't have his armor on. Also, it was a 3-on-1 battle.

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It's very clearly explained both in the original VN and the recent anime.

>>148138377
>gets fucked
He killed him 6 times
>inside UBW
You never read the VN, did you?

Gil as always is an arrogant prick.

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>>148140170
>There was a beautiful clang just now

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>>148141268
>>148141235
So if I play the V/N I get a crudely translated but more complete story/experience.

>>148140248
>The world building in Fate is really well done

No, it isn't. Nasu's world building is pretty much a checklist for "How not to create a Fantasy World".
>Lore is conveyed through long, boring info dumps instead of being seamlessly integrated into the narrative
>Rules are more often broken than upheld, and exceptions and aberrations are the norm
>Pointless intricacies that have no relation whatsoever to the plot are inexplicably elaborated in detail to pad out the adventure

>>148141390
Rin kills Berserker. All you need to kill Berserker is a strong enough attack.

>>148141457
Exactly. Even with the lackluster translation,

VN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anime

The UBW series definitely wasn't a bad adaptation, but naturally it wasn't as good as the original. There's a handful of major character points it skipped past.

>Servers are failing
Winter truly is coming boys. Brace yourselves

>>148141508
Not sure if baiting, secondary, or retarded. It's not just raw power required to pass through GH, it requires a certain tier of weaponry/magic. Tohsaka hit him with the most powerful jewel magic possible with 10 years of preparation. That is not something you just call a "strong attack". It was highly advanced gem magic. Even if it's in the form of a giant beam and looked simple, that doesn't make the rank of the magic any lower.

>>148137134
>3. In Heaven's Feel, he literally gets Archer's arm attached to him. That gives him an insane power boost, since magic circuits and body-memory play a huge role in Nasuverse magic.
Seriously this is the only one that I gave a shit about when I read it.

Fate Route was basically willpower and magic hax with Avalon. UBW was literally shounen-tier writing where beating Gil was just power fantasy fanservice stuck at the end. At least HF bypassed everything with a clear-cut reasoning for his boost and got to what made the characters tick but I guess that's why it's even the last route.

>>148135585
I'm not recommending Fragments, just that fight which was pretty good.

>>148138649
Zero didn't have a self-insert character. Nasu decided to drop the aspect of Masters fighting after Bazett.

>>148138649
People like to scream "secondary" at anyone who likes F/Z but it's really one of the few times I was able to take Gil seriously and it's the first time I truly felt that he finally matched up to all the hype that Nasu was giving him in concept.

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>Fate will never be discussable on /a/ ever again

Goddammit F/Z. The constant bait threads and shitposting became a thing as soon as the anime dragged in a wave of secondaries that shat up the board. And now /a/ hates what it used to fucking love.

Fucking newfags.

>>148141636
>Zero didn't have a self-insert character
What's your point?

>>148141636
>drop the aspect of Masters fighting
Looks like you never read or watched F/Z.

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>>148129768
I don't think you understand KARADA WA TSURUGI DEIKITEIRU
Also besides the fact that Gil isn't serious, until he gets far back into the corner and wakes up too late. His death in Heavens Feel was hilarious.

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Guys, I love the VN and I've always felt that the narrative was pretty tightly constructed with no glaring plot holes and an overall an excellently built world.
However, there's one thing that's always bothered me and maybe a bigger fate fag can answer this question.
If Caliburn is supposedly an inferior sword to Excalibur, then why is the projected Caliburn so incredibly powerful? The VN explicitly states that Excalibur just bounces off Berserkers arm and can't cuit him, but then a few minutes later Caliburn cuts through it with ease.
What gives?

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>>148135393
>Recommending fragments
>"Hey guys Nasu totally said this, no I don't have a quote or a source or a source for a quote trust me guys"

Is there a single Fate thread on /a/ that isn't shit nowadays?

>>148141489

>Lore is conveyed through long, boring info dumps instead of being seamlessly integrated into the narrative

Dozens of good games I've played end up with in universe books and lore dumps, not really a negative to me. The timescale of this event wasn't long enough to see everything from every perspective (groups, time etc).

>Rules are more often broken than upheld, and exceptions and aberrations are the norm
Isn't that the whole point? Under normal circumstances this happens. Then comes along standard magic (the stuff you can replicate) and higher tier magic that's off the normal scale. One understands and can make the phenomena happen easily, the other is some bullshit secret shit unique to an item/person (every mage would want to study and replicate it). If you're mostly talking about grail based rules, those were of human design, surely the makers would know how to hack their own creation to do something it wasn't quite meant to.

I don't really recall much about your third issue.

>>148141724
>The VN explicitly states that Excalibur just bounces off Berserkers arm and can't cuit him
Because Saber could barely move and had no mana to charge Excalibur's blade or keep IA up, which boosts cutting power.

As for Caliburn, IIRC Nasu flat-out said it was a miracle, and the two of them together manifested the legend, not just the sword. It's unclear how exactly Saber using the sword buffed it.

>>148141803
>It's unclear how exactly Saber using the sword buffed it.
iirc Saber was just there as a catalyst for the uber-trace or whatever.

>>148141828

That whole thing is always going to be asspull tier to me. Just random miracle not touched on before, sudden boost to everything because plot needs herc to die.

>>148141882
ok

>>148141803
>>148141828

Eh, I don't think the VN ever touched on Excalibur needing to be magically charged for anything other than excaliblasting, and I can't imagine the lack of IA could make that big of a difference.
I guess I'm going to have to just rationalize it with the miracle nonsense.
Thanks for the input boys.

>>148141724
I think the real plothole here is how the hell they even swung the sword like that. They have different arm lengths and physical builds. How did they even swing the thing in the right direction?

>>148141882
I didn't really have a problem with it.

I might have just been drunk on the OST though.

and actual alcohol, Fate is awesome once you get a good buzz going.

>>148141922
>I don't think the VN ever touched on Excalibur needing to be magically charged for anything other than excaliblasting

Why the fuck do you think it glows?

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>>148141724
>Shirou then
>Shirou now

What the fuck happened?

>>148141982

It's fucking holy my man

>>148141661
>And now /a/ hates what it used to fucking love.
Or maybe people got bored and moved on when Nasu doesn't write more shit year after year and instead made things like F/GO. TM dug its own grave by not releasing new content. F/Z was never the problem.

>>148141666
Satan I think you're quoting the wrong person.

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>>148142004
Takeuchi realized he should make Shirou look like the sexy beast he is.

>>148142130
Stuff you don't like =/= no new content.

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Honestly, Nasu doesn't even understand his own powerlevels so there is no point in trying to do so. He says that UBW blows, but outside of maybe like 5-6 servants I can't think of any that could survive having a couple hundred thousand NP's dropped on them.

>>148142130
Correction: TM has made plenty of new content that you didn't mention, it's just not translated.

>>148130539
There's no way she can regenerate from a full on Enuma Elish.

>>148142256
Don't use fanfiction to try to make an argument. Also Shirou doesn't say
>I don't stand any chance and would get splattered by all other Servants
I'd imagine Shirou could certainly buy time or hold most Servants while inside UBW. Also, really need confirmation on this, I think Nasu said in an interview after UBW aired that Shirou could fight/kill some other Servants. Just not most of them.

>>148142325
It's not like there is anything preventing him from doing the same thing in canon.

>>148142259

CCC/Extra when? I just don't like the over the top presentation of FGO. Got a bit gaudy with the character designs.

>>148130539
>Sakura's max output is 1000 units of mana
>Excalibur's output is 1500 units of mana
>Ea is stated to be 3x stronger than Excalibur when Saber and Gil first fight in Fate
>Ea is 4500, Sakura is 1000
>Ea is over 4 times stronger than Sakura's best shadow

That matchup is seriously just math.

>>148142259
Yeah, lack of translation is a bigger problem than lack of new content in terms of stifling discussion here. If CCC were translated that alone would be enough for hundreds of threads of discussion.

>>148142362
>Got a bit gaudy with the character designs
Yeah, that happens when you enlist a wide load of artists. I understand why they had to, but it has resulted in character designs being a bit inconsistent.

>>148142198
>Takeuchi realized he should make Shirou look like the sexy beast he is
The thing is that in vn he, aside from his fit body, is described as plain looking guy. Shinji and Issei and Ayakos brother are good looking ones.

What is your favourite meme to come out of the Fate series?

>>148142533
Definitely GARcher

see you in fall semester honorable mention

>>148142533

defenseless anus

>>148142533
Bait images > Yorokobe Shounen > Sasaki Kojiro, savior of France

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>>148142480
Its not a bad thing to change something for the better. I mean Shirou's sprite can look downright goofy in the VN rather than just plain.

>>148142533
Obviously that people die when they're killed. I have a shirt with Shirou saying that.No, I don't wear it anywhere outside.

>>148142606
I only watched Fate to understand where the bait came from It only made them better.

>>148142256
Cu Chulainn (Protection from Arrows)
Scathach (Wisdom of the Abyss/Protection from Arrows)
Karna (Kavacha and Kundala)
Siegfried (Armor of Fafnir)
Gawain (Numeral of the Saint)
Alcides (Nemean Lion Pelt)
Achilles (Ackhilleus Kosmos/Andreas Amarantos)
Pale Rider (Deadly Japanese Cold)
SERIOUS (tm) Gilgamesh (auto-defense NP)
Enkidu (Enuma Elish)
Galahad (Lord Camelot)

It's pretty easy to name Servants that would casually brush off UBW.

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>>148129768
Well how about you rewatch or reread F/SN and figure it out? All the information is laid out for you, so if you don't understand it I guess you're just a dumbass.

>>148142774

I'm not sure many of these would be useful against a full-powered Archer dropping hundreds of broken phantasms on them

>>148142774
You're forgetting they're not just swords, each is a NP with its own unique property/ability, even if they're down a rank. There's lots of Servants that could block or deflect a massive volley of simple steel swords. There aren't many that could stop a massive volley of unique magic swords.

>>148142256
>I can't think of any that could survive having a couple hundred thousand NP's dropped on them.

That isn't really how UBW works. I need to re-read FSN, but the issue is that Shirou has no way of blocking attacks other than GIl's. People who truly wield their NP can attack through UBW because its an imitation, but Gil just owns things, he doesn't know how to use them (with the exception of a couple things, namely Ea) , so he can be countered.

It isn't explained super clearly, but Shirou's UBW is fairly weak.

>>148142965
NPs are just hunks of sharpened steel if you don't activate their abilities.

And Archer can hardly activate them while firing hundreds of them at a time.

>>148142939
>dropping hundreds of broken phantasms on them
You realize mana is a thing right? Archer can't just pull swords out his ass, broken phantasms take a LOT of mana. The NP has to be materialized, then overloaded with even more mana to the point that it becomes unstable.

>>148143012
Its strong in the right circumstances, and the shirou that we see in UBW is still a novice.

Assuming Archer is in his early 30's shirou has like 15 years to not only reach his level but probably surpass him.

>>148142965
Some of those defences block even those. Gil rained thousands of NPs on Alcides for example.

>>148129768
He's a fucked up human being mentally, to an extent that his mindset is comparable to alien (Types) and vampires (Dead Apostle). Combined with the scabbard of king arthur (forged by faes in-universe), it led to his inner world manifesting the ability to read swords and other melee weapon on the fly down to the experience of the wielder.

When manifested upon the world as a Reality Marble, its firing rate is slightly faster than Gilgamesh's treasury, whose pride prevented him from going all out and just using his world-destroying sword to end the fight right there

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>Emiya Kiritsugu’s right hand continued its work of writing while his left hand mechanically shoveled his nutrition – hamburgers from a fast food restaurant he bought while investigating – into his mouth. For nine years, Emiya Kiritsugu had eaten at the table of the Einsberns, who were merely a hair removed from royalty themselves. He had grown tired of the cuisine. This fast food, filled with the sense of slaughter, was more suited to his tastes. Being able to eat without interrupting one’s words or thoughts was better than anything, no matter how you looked at it.

>Zerofags
>Butcherfags

>>148143143
Kerry is an edgy faggot, everyone already knows this.
He had the best ideals though.

>>148143046

You're right, but mana is a shaky limitation at best and only ever seems to be an actual limitation in FSN when Shirou can't get enough mana to Saber because muh inexperienced master or when Archer is surviving on nothing but independent action.
Archer seems to be able to use a single broken phantasm when he needs to without trouble, and with a decent mana supply and the support of UBW itself I'm sure he could manage to drop at least a couple dozen on somebody.
All this aside, arguing about power levels in the nasuverse is kind of silly.

>>148143012
When a fake or a newer incarnation is clashed directly against the original the original always win. But if its fired as projectile like UBW/GoB the two just clash in midair and knock each other out of the way.

Against normal servants with their own NPs, UBW doesn't make up for the degradation in stats through projection (which means B rank is the limit), sword spam has limit as remaking destroyed swords cost a ton of mana even inside, and even with the copied battle experience and stats a human can't match up to a Servant

>>148143143
Zero has rather terrible prose and a lot of legitimately pretentious moments and scenes, yeah.

There's a reason the anime is widely considered superior even by non-secondaries: it cuts nearly all of it out.

I'm still pissed that choo choo train lost to archer.

THAT was an asspull.

>>148143046

UBW produces hundreds of NPs when its first cast that require no mana to use, so he would only need to use the mana needed to overload them.

>>148143057
Shirou without world pact will never surpass servant Archer. He might surpass Archer timeline Shirou but not after he made a pact. Nasu said that Shirou who train himself to his peak would still get crushed by Bazett

>>148143276
>would still get crushed by Bazett
Because Bazett is a fucking badass.

Literally cast fist the waifu.

>>148143201
>sword spam has limit as remaking destroyed swords cost a ton of mana even inside
Within UBW Archer has to burn through a nigh-infinite number of swords before he even needs to make more.

>>148143238
And overloading NPs costs a fuckton of mana.

Let alone hundreds of them.

>>148143276
To be fair Bazett has a literal "I win" button that she can freely press if he ever uses UBW and is specialized for close quarters combat, which is where even Archer falls short.

She hardcounters him the same way he hardcounters non-serious Gilgamesh, so I don't think her being able to crush him says anything about their respective powerlevels compared to each other.

>>148143339
UBW explicitly "only" spawns with a 1000 blades prepped and ready to go.

It's still a fucking absurd number, but it's nowhere near nigh-infinite.

>>148143299
Weaker than regular Ciel

>>148143382

What are you basing this on exactly?
Archer seems to be capable of overloading Caladbolg whenever he needs to with no readily apparent massive mana hit.
I don't remember ever reading that broken phantasms requires an excessive amount of mana.

>>148143418
Ciel is a freak, she's ridiculously strong, she's just surrounded by two of the most powerful people in the nasuverse.

>>148143408
>UBW explicitly "only" spawns with a 1000 blades prepped and ready to go
What? where's your source for that claim?
Please don't tell me it's the fucking chant.

>>148143691
don't people often translate mugen as a thousand but its more to mean too many to count?

>>148143736

Mugen is usually translated as infinite or infinity, but I'm failing to see what that has to do with UBW?

>>148143817

Nevermind, I see now, it's in the full japanese title for UBW

>>148143736
No. Who the hell translates mugen as "a thousand"? it's literally unlimited/endless/infinite.

>>148143817
In Shirou's chant he calls UBW's name in japanese.

>>148137262
He didn't go all out on the SWAT guys, no magic or anything. He saved that for his fight with the Card user with the silly name.

Would an EMIYA installed Shirou force Gil not to go pants on head retard or will he double down on going full pants on head retard?

Hey guys, why doesn't Archer use Shirou's sword-healing during battle? it seems like it would be quite useful if controlled properly.
I mean, Shirou survived Rider's dagger and Kirei's punches thanks to it, and it also played a part in their first battle against Gil in Fate IIRC.

>>148144067
Gil also mocked Archer and called him faker in UBW, so EMIYA installed Shirou should be considered a double faker.

>>148144096
Pretty sure that was Avalon buddy.

>>148137262
>>148137495
>>148136996
>>148136820
>>148136340
>>148136277
You folks got it wrong.

Only a human CAN defeat monsters.

A monster can't defeat a monster, and monsters CAN AND WILL kill lots of humans.

But eventually one human's going to be better than the monster, or the monster's going to be worn down enough to be killed by the human after dulling its fangs on a hundred thousand humans.

That's what it means.

>>148142606
Sasaki Kojiro, Dragon Slayer is among my favorites. Particularly some of the art of him chilling with St. George.

>>148144096

If I remember correctly, there isn't ever a situation where Archer is badly injured but needs to keep fighting, and anytime we see him die he gets merked faster than the sword-knitting could do anything, so for all we know he might.

>>148144173

The swords-knitting makes two appearances in Fate, so it could potentially be some sort of Avalon misfire, but that doesn't explain it's massive overuse in HF

>>148144173
No, Avalon is just regeneration.
The sword healing comes from UBW and changes the tissue into blades to knit the wound. With Avalon Shirou gets his flesh reconstructed from scratch.
In HF after Saber dies, the swordification continues, so it can't be Avalon.

>>148144254
I know sword knitting is a thing, I was just saying that I think it was only used when Shirou went batshit insane in HF.

I'm pretty sure everything before that was Avalon

If I recall correctly Saber didn't do too hot against either GoB or UBW spam right?

If she's supposed to be your premier ultra-skilled real deal Servant how are we supposed to expect the rest to do any better?

>>148144294

Well, the sword-knitting is briefly mentioned when Shirou gets fucked up by Gil during fate, but I seem to remember it being pass off as some sort of hallucination, but he also explicitly dies from the sword-knitting gone wrong in the Rafflesia Umbrella bad end in fate.
I don't remember it making an appearance in UBW.
I don't fucking know man

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>>148129768
Didn´t Gil (a demigod) beat Gods? there is still half-a-God of difference in the powerlevel like with Shirou, yet you don´t question it

>>148144294
Against Rider and Gil it was clearly sword-knitting.
Rider's dagger was repelled by the internal swords, and I think those same swords end up hurting Shirou in the dead end where he's thrown out the window and doesn't summon Saber.
Againt Gil you get the description of the sword knitting and that image where you see the layers of tiny blades flashes a couple times.
Avalon healing is responsible of stuff like Shirou surviving Berserker basically cutting him in half. He had to regenerate lost organs after that fight, and Rin said it wasn't her doing.

>>148142256
That is a super powered Shirou, back by a near limitless source of prana.

>>148144367
Gilgamesh is two thirds god. And besides, I think he killed the Bull of Heaven only with Enkidu.

>>148144510
>near limitless source of prana
Irrelevant. Inside UBW the swordspam has no cost. It's perfectly possible to fire all the Reality Marble's stock at once, even for normal Shirou.

>>148130083
UBW is faster than GoB and Gilgamesh isn't a warrior. He's a king.

>>148144622
>It's perfectly possible to fire all the Reality Marble's stock at once, even for normal Shirou.

Source

>>148144622
Apparently, that's not how it works in that universe, because right after Miyu went away, he lost the fight.

>>148142380
SHES INCREDIBLE MATH

So, does UBW stocks all existing NP? Or just the ones that he created/seen?

>>148144657
>All of the weapons Archer can project are there and in this space he doesn't have to project them from scratch
ALL of the weapons are already there, ready, therefore all of them can be used.

>>148144727
Only the one's he's seen.

>>148144727

Any that he's seen and can understand.
Though as far as I know that only includes Ea.

>>148141291
I thought that his powers were result of having Excalibur embedded in him and his projection/tracing were merely a byproduct of his ONLY ability he had to begin with, which is his reality marble, that's why Shirou could've replicated it so easily, becase it really wasn't an ability he had to learn, he only had to use the circuits within his own body that were created thanks to Excalibur.

>>148144679
I think UBW collapsed because he runs out of juice. Sword spam might be free, but maintaining UBW isn't.

Plus it's getting wrecked with Enuma Elish at the same time so I doubt he'll able to maintain it.

>>148144842

It was Avalon that was embedded in Shirou, not Excalibur, and neither has anything to do with Shirou becoming capable of casting UBW.

In UBW he becomes capable of using it because Archer's battle knowledge and ability gradually flow into Shirou as they fight because same person + it's fucking magic

He gains immense projection power in HF because he's abusing Archer's arm, but can't use UBW because his and Archer's UBW are too different from one another

>>148145068
HF Shirou rules. UBW is useless anyways, Archer only uses it for intimidation purposes.

>>148129768
Gods die when they are killed. How dumb do you have to be to not understand simple logic?

>>148145068
Avalon changed the origin to the sword attribute. Without this, the RM would be completely different.

>>148145068
Right, I'm retarded, of course it was Avalon, I have no idea why I thought it was Excalibur.

And I think I'm actually correct about Avalon causing his powers, at least according to the wiki.

To quote: "He has an Origin of "Sword" and Elemental Affinity of "Sword" as well due to having had Avalon inside him for many years. This leaves him unable to use magic of the five great elements with precision due to lacking any as an alignment, but it does allow for the manifestation of Unlimited Blade Works and the derivative skills in Reinforcement and Projection Magecraft."

Also where was it mentioned that Shirou couldn't use Unlimited Blade Works due to having Archer arm? I might've missed it.

>>148142939
BROKEN PHANTASMS TAKE CHANTING TIME AND HAS COOLDOWN FOR ONE SHOT
Fucking stop it with this bullshit.

>>148145201
But they're divine? How?

>>148129768
im sure that bad writing plays a part in it.

Also, blame urobutchi for making Gilgamesh smart, stronger, competent and likeable. If he hadn't done that, then the fanbois wouldn't have nearly as much to complain about. Urobutchi turned a generic, overpowered psycho into a good character, and that undermined the original.

>>148145228
>>148145262

Alright, fair enough, Avalon gave him the sword origin which in the long run gave him access to UBW, but it wasn't really relevant in the short term of improving his ability as a magus to the point of being able to cast it.

>>148145262

During nine bullet revolver when he's projecting nine lives blade works, he mentions he can't use the actual reality marble because his and Archer's world are too different from one another.

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>>148141724
>>148142004
Ugly butch dyke hair was ditched for cooler Tohno Shiki hair.

>>148145277
>Anon is exaggerating like crazy
>BETTER SCREAM AT HIM AND DISPROVE HIM WITH LITERALLY NOTHING

>>148145346
Did you even UBW? The "training" before the circuits got opened was useless. There wasn't even enough prana that Rin had to share hers in order to be able to cast it. There was no improvement. It was just "suddenly this guy gets this power because other people intervene in the story" kind of thing.

>>148144311
She can hold back against GoB for a while but progressively taking damage. Given UBW's weapons are reduced in rank, she can probably stall but not do much else.
That being said, Saber is a premier Servant but her kit is basically the 'average toolset' with high specs. Lancer, who has protection from arrows and Battle Continuation, lasted for a good long while against GoB, and likely far longer than what Saber could have, and that's Lancer running on empty.
In simple words, specific counters generally work better than having outright the biggest scores in the statsheet.

>>148145406
If the Saber battle in FHA was an exaggeration, you'd be right.

>>148145412

Yeah, maybe "improve as a magus" was the wrong way to phrase it, but I'm not really sure how to articulate my meaning.
What I'm trying to say is that yeah, Avalon giving him the sword origin is the long run cause of UBW, but wasn't immediately relevant in his ability to cast it.

>>148145440
>lasted for a good long while
Cu lasted for half a day with zero support. That's more than a good long while. There's likely no one in the 5th HGW that could have beaten him if he wasn't fucked from the start.

>>148145346
I think that it actually was, I thought that Avalon caused him to have so many circuits in his body that have the only single purpose of casting reality marble, otherwise why would he have so many circuits? He was supposed to be a random person saved by Kiritsugu. I think that it was refered to his reality marble as his only magic.

And I'm not sure how would I interpret him not being capable using reality marble in UBW, I guess it could be the mixture of circuits or just generally not being himself? Hard to say for me, but I concede that he probably couldn't use it in HF, isn't unlikely.

>>148145412
I thought that he needed help with prana, because he just didn't know how to use his circuits naturally, and that he generally could use more prana for more of his projections, which would be very huge strategic benefit in fights.

>>148142480
>plain looking guy
>Shinji and Issei good looking
>Shinji
>motherfucking Shinji
Gonna need source for that one.

>>148145363
Well, that's ugly as shit for sure.

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>>148145506

Here's the explicit statement of his inability to use UBW in HF, just to clear up any confusion.

>>148145554
Doesn't he have a bunch of girls following him around at school?
The guy is pretty popular and it can't be because of his charming personality, can it?

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>>148144294
In Fate, Rider's nail dagger chips off of Shirou's bare skin. The tip of it even cracks. And when Gil almost cuts him in half the swords literally pull him back together.

Which begs the question: if he can tank a hit from Rider weapon on his bare skin and even damage her weapon, how do other enemies always cut him so easily? Seems like the best a standard jab from Lancer would do is break his skin and maybe split the outermost layer of inner flesh. It'd leave a fat bruise, but I don't see how Lancer can so cleanly impale him, Archer can easily cut him, etc.

That power seems drastically underestimated and/or inconsistent.

>>148145493
>There's likely no one in the 5th HGW that could have beaten him if he wasn't fucked from the start.
Gilgamesh still exists.

>>148145595
I'm still not sure how to square that precisely, I guess it has to do with his mental image being distorted more than physical facilities.

>>148145493
>Cu lasted for half a day with zero support
And a not serious Gil.
>There's likely no one in the 5th HGW that could have beaten him if he wasn't fucked from the start.
Berserker is his hard counter. Way better stats, better popularity bonus, Eye of the Mind, and fucking God Hand which makes a victory almost impossible for Cu.
Also, Rin Saber, Saber Alter, and of course Gil shit on him too.

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>>148145493
>There's likely no one in the 5th HGW that could have beaten him if he wasn't fucked from the start
I love Cu, but really man?
>Archer stealth snipes him, PfA doesn't cover what he can't see coming
>Berserker smashes him
>Gil chains and then Eas him
>Saber Avalons/Excaliblasts him

>>148145713

Yeah, mental image is the way I always took it as well.

>>148145493
E rank luck.

>>148143339
Archer's mana capacity as a servant is much greater than Shirou even with Rin's backup though. Plus, some swords are more valuable than others due to their special characteristics (i.e. Caladbolg 2 and Hrunting as BP arrow) or their activated effects.

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>>148145493
Generally speaking, not going by specific matchups, for the 5th and 4th HGW
>5: EMIYA
>4: Cu
>3: Herakles
>2: Saber (Avalon/Proper Master)
>1: Gilgamesh
Zerobabies forever mad Urobutcher isn't a massive powerlevelfag like Nasu

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>>148129768
Its literally an anime adaptation of a porn game, what it matters there was self-inserting as the MC and fucking the girls.

pic related.

>>148145262
>Also where was it mentioned that Shirou couldn't use Unlimited Blade Works due to having Archer arm? I might've missed it.

He can't use Archer's Unlimited Blade Works due to the difference in inner world. Given enough training and time he can manifest his own Unlimited Blade Works like he does in the route

Shirou has shitty mana reserves, but his usual training regiment for magic is actually the process of making a new magic circuit every time

Because he's fused with a magic sheath thanks to Kiritsugu, his origin (aka/and his elemental affinity when it comes to magic) is literally Swords, making him very good at projecting and using swords, and a lifetime of actually being a magus in one reality led him to use this to develop a reality marble based on all of the swords he can process and replicate

When Shirou meets Archer, he sees, analyzes and comprehends his own favorite weapons and eventually UBW because it's a sword-based reality marble and copying swords/swordplay is his only natural talent and skill

When Rin ups his mana by sharing her reserves with him, he figures out/devises his own incantation to use all of the shitty magic circuits he's created in himself to cast his own UBW because it's literally just an expression of his origin as an environment-replacing spell

I'd definitely put EMIYA above Cu, and MAYBE above Hercules.

>>148145506
>I think that it actually was, I thought that Avalon caused him to have so many circuits in his body that have the only single purpose of casting reality marble, otherwise why would he have so many circuits? He was supposed to be a random person saved by Kiritsugu. I think that it was refered to his reality marble as his only magic.

Just plain luck. 27 is slight above average for a magus, but quite an impressive number for someone without a magus linage.

>I thought that he needed help with prana, because he just didn't know how to use his circuits naturally, and that he generally could use more prana for more of his projections, which would be very huge strategic benefit in fights.

His natural circuits are atrophied from lack of use, so their quality and capacity are terrible. The contract with Rin forcefully open them to max capacity and fill them with her prana so he has enough to sword spam and cast UBW

>>148145859
>Nasuverse
>Power ranking
You know this shit just doesn't work when Nº5 can eat Nº1 for breakfast, yet Nº4 gets his ass handed to him by Nº3 9 out of 10 times.

>>148145493
Even Rider with a strong master could probably destroy him with Bellerophon

He might be capable of 1-shotting everyone but Herk but his E-rank luck just isn't going to let that happen

>>148145739
>Archer stealth snipes him, PfA doesn't cover what he can't see coming
LoS goes both ways, so if Archer can see him, there is LoS and PfA works. Super-long-distance is never defined exactly as a range-would need to see whether this can apply in Fuyuki at all.
>Berserker smashes him
Unless it's a situation where 1v1 can't be avoided, Lancer can always retreat, even carrying his Master if needed
>Gil
Yeah, Gil screws him if Enkidu is uses
>Saber
Excalibur requires plenty of chargeup for the cone effect, and still is easy to notice it chargeing. Unless Lancer gets caught dead-on in the center of the AoE, he can get out of it or intercept Saber before she can complete it. But again, if forced to 1v1, he's likely screwed.

>>148143394
Does Fragarach even work against UBW? I'm under the impression that it only counters single target ultimate move. Triple Linked Crane Wing maybe, but a reality marble isn't an attack

>>148145506
His nightly magic regiment was making a new circuit, which he doesn't realize outside of UBW because he doesn't use them, and why most of them are atrophied, and since most of his practice sessions are failures, he ended up with a grand total of 27 salvageable circuits

>>148146007
Problem with Bellerophon is the setup and Rider has no innate defensive skill which can screw her once the bulge is set off. At best she can go for a mutual kill.

Medusa and Medea are kinda the easiest match up for the likes of Cu.

>>148146044
>LoS
Archer has the Clairvoyance skill. Cu doesn't.
>PfA
Doesn't even work against AoE attacks, or great Noble Phantasms. Caladbolg II fits both requirements.

>>148146090
The one he create out of his nerves are one off that turns back to nerves after he's done. 27 is the number of natural one he had from birth (IIRC in UBW it was mentioned that his new circuit felt like a layer over his nerves, instead of being a hot iron inserted into his spine)

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>>148146044
>Saber
>Excalibur requires plenty of chargeup for the cone effect.....
Avalon. You are completely forgetting/ignoring the most overpowered defensive NP in the series. Hell, without even activating it, just by having it on her she gets a massive mana boost and her regeneration speed drastically increases.

>>148146512
What's the point of that discussion? Rin Saber has Cu beaten in fighting skills and stats alike. And Gae Bolg is not gonna hit with the absolutely massive gap in luck (+instinct) between the two.

>>148146204
Reminder that when they fought, Cu should have won except lol pride happened. Also previous fights had Cu with an upper hand and he just willy-nilly dodged snipe attacks before fucking off into the forest out of line of sight.

>>148146625
>What's the point of that discussion?
I have no idea. But Cufag is Cufagging.

>>148146512
Saber doesn't have Avalon with her.

>>148146681
When did Emiya ever try shooting Lancer, save that one akward time he does it in melee range in the anime?
>previous fights had Cu with an upper hand and he just willy-nilly dodged snipe attacks before fucking off into the forest out of line of sight
This literally never happens. In any route or any Fate storyline.

There is nothing saving Cu if Archer fires Kaladbolg from 4 kilometers away when Cu's either not paying attention or fighting someone else.

The luck rakings is nothing but plot ranks.

Lame.

>>148146723
Why does she not? I always use every Servant at their best for this shit. That's like saying we shouldn't count Ea with Gilgamesh. Why are you taking away her "true" (the VN calls it her true) NP? That makes no sense.

>>148146681
>Reminder that when they fought, Cu should have won except lol pride happened
You didn't get the point of the fight at all. Archer never intended to defeat Cu, his purpose was to survive and betray Caster, Cu just took his sweet time to see through his intentions because he loves to fight.
All that "I have no pride as a warrior" bullshit is Archer hinting he actually doesn't want to stop Cu at all. Archer does take pride in his sword skills, which is why he favors direct combat with K&B, and looks up to reaching Saber's level one day.

>>148144646
>Gilgamesh isn't a warrior
What a piece of bullshit is that?

>>148129768
that's gilga fault, he didnt use ea, so yeah, he lost for his mistake

>>148147087
Correction: He tried to. Then he got his fucking arm cut off. Gil can't use Ea while in UBW, he doesn't have the time. He has to devote absolutely everything to holding Shirou/Archer back.

>>148142362
>>148142388
wasnt there some group that picked CCC translation again

>>148147077
It is well known that his combat skills are not very remarkable as far as servants go.
He mostly just stands and lets his noble phantasm do the job, compered to Saber, for example, he doesn't do much in battles.

>>148147077
only thing gil has is GoB shit, take that away and a simple jobbere can take him out without much issues

>>148142380

The thing is, is that Sakura has more than just her familiars. Matchups in TM are almost never just pure numbers. People get mad about Gil being devoured, but they pretty much forget he got melted down to nothing in Zero and AM gave him a new body because plot said so on a charisma roll. So him being lunched by Sakura, who was did all that in a fugue dreamlike state (Nasu says Gil gave AM a tummy ache, but let's be real, Sakura was completely out of sorts and running on base instinct) and Gil knew all about AM, him dying was the pure fact that Sakura's powers are compatible with AM and it fucked him, Gil even said so before he got fucked.

>>148139254
>Those worms contain the magic of the Matou family. They didn't want "a magic girl", they wanted "a Matou mage". Sakura wasn't a Matou, so they used worms to "make" her into one.

Wtong. Zouken even refutes this in HF. Sakura was an experiment to make into a vessel, as all Matou family members are supposed to be in his plans, he even says its surprising she lived through her "initiation", he didn't care if she lived or not.

Then he went further after finding pieces of the grail in the 4th war, used the shards from Iri's corpse and put them in Sakura to make further experiments with the system, basically Frankenstein'ing her. His purpose was never to male her into a mage, but flesh that can be remote controlled to use magic and made into a spare body if needed, and if he could have her pump out kids to make them even more compatible for experiments, then that is even better for him.

That Sakura endured and has a chance to even use some of her potential is pretty miraculous, but it ends up being summed up as "lol rape" without understanding the other implications. Magi are nuts, but a lot of them would call Zouken mad for what he does.

>>148143174
No he didn't, you'd have to be 13 to think his ideals were anything but evil.
He treated humans as sacrificial animals, that one group can be sacrificed for another for a reason as arbitrary as number. He thought that ends justified any means.
Not only that, but he used force against anyone and anything that tried to stop him from murdering innocent people.

He is one of the worst villains ever, because he's guided by """""altruism""""" based on no set of objective value.

>>148135338
Who wouldn't be? That engrish doesn't make much sense. Nasu wasn't good at English back then.

>>148147440
He could have put on his armor instead.

>>148148097
There is absolutely nothing Sakura could do to stop even the lowest ring of an Ea blast. Her only form of defense would be a shadow wall, but that's already been established to be pointless.

Sakura's not nearly as powerful as Sakurafags seem to think. Most Servants could handle her.
>Sakura has more than just her familiars
Other than her basic mana-drain magic, which would do fuck-all to a Servant what with their massive mana composition, what does she have? The pits that eat people's feet, which is just one of her familiars taking a different shape? Still the same shadow devouring. Sakura only has 2 tricks, and only 1 of them is useful against Servants.

>>148148392
I see this a lot, and then wonder why people don't actually think it out.
>Gil puts on his armor
Okay, then Shirou just fucking jams a sword into the joint of his armor, the way they killed knights in armor in history. Or he aims for Gil's head/neck, forcing Gil to raise his arms as shields, exposing Gil's armpits, waist, and elbows. There is nothing stating that black cloth on the joint segments of his armor are super tough too. Shirou could fire an infinite volley of swords targeting every single open point on his armor.

>>148148521
>jams the joint of his armor
>aims for the neck
Saber, who is far faster, can't even do that in her melee spam on Gilgamesh who just stood there in front of her.

>>148148125
Is he better at English now?

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>>148138220
>He can't do a high tier spell
>He has a Reality Marble
RM is a very high tier spell. He's probably the only human in TM who can cast a RM.

>>148148101
>He thought that ends justified any means.

They do. That's how all battles, ever, have been fought in the real world. You sacrifice and risk the lives of some number of people to protect the state as a whole. Sometimes non-combatants die, as well, because civilian casualties are a fact of war. You're living in a fantasy land.

>>148148448

If we were talking about regular Sakura, you're right to a point, but there isn't a "regular" Sakura to go by honestly, because Nasu doesn't really tell us fully about her powers or even her affinity. It would be an interesting topic since she is a unique case, but he is vague (even more than he usually is )about her, only he and Takeuchi stressing that she has powers befitting a boss character.

Nasu himself says she has authority as the grail, plus her affinity with the supernatural as a Tohsaka which was dulled but never lost, and the Matou abilities to bind/drain are what made her into what she was when blackened, which gave her the curse which works on Servants on top of the having an almost everlasting mana pump. In addition to the regen and her resilience that enabled her to go past her limits and shoot out three 1000 mana familiars at a time with her fight with Rin. Her biggest handicap is mental instability with the curse and inexperience, anything Sakura did in HF she made up on the spot and worked through instinct. Remember how the Shadow drained all the energy in the environment and blew itself up? Those are facets of Sakura's powers, because it's only ever using her abilties and the curse when it manifests.

If Gil did use Ea, yeah it'd probably be over, but that's pure whiteroom thinking, he hit her with enough force three times to kill normal servants and cut off her head, then was taken in instantly afterwards before he could finish a sentence. Then his soul was absorbed immediately by a girl who was so out of it she could barely remember her name and digested him like bad Mexican. If she could take him, Mr. Clairvoyant, before he even can speak and absorb him in the state she was in, where does Ea come into play in a normal fight where his arrogance about filthy mongrel humans still applies?

It ain't about being a Sakurafag or not, it's actually understanding things on both sides.

>>148148853

Saber didn't had the advantage of having UBW covering for her

>>148129768
the protagonist self insert has to win

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>>148149041
RM isn't very special strength wise though unless under certain conditions, even this bozo can kill them.

>>148150365
It's still pretty cool
>…Properly speaking, reality marbles are only supposed to be used by elementals and devils, but given enough time it is possible for some advanced practitioners to complete a sorcery to give shape to their personal imagined world and create a reality marble of their own.

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>>148150365
>even this bozo can kill them.
Nanaya doesn't have MEoDP so he can't kill them unless you use "if you want to kill RM just kill it's owner" logic

>>148146776

Personal fortune is a thing. Sakura has E rank luck and Medusa's ranks go down with her as a master despite everything else going up. And those two end up as two of the most BTFO pair in the war, despite making it to the end in one timeline.

>>148129768
Reminder that Shirou is literally proof Gilgamesh was right, that mass destruction would bear the fruit of strong people. The only reason Gil hates him is because of his specific power.

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>>148151864
He's wrong though. Incest is true answer.

>>148129768
Even demigods are at least half human

>>148152375
Gilgamesh is only 1/3rd human though.

>>148150796
nanaya and tohno are the same person outside of melty blood/kagetsu

>>148129768
Nasu is retarded. Not much to explain here.

>>148129768
I don't feel like reading through 333 posts of "fate is shit" "actually it's good because xyz" over and over, so just tell me this.

Why the fuck does shirou have UBW? Is that shit ever explained properly beyond just "oh he had a magic sword in him for most of his life so that magically made his magicalness attuned to magic swords"