Why is early dragonball so much better than post-saiyan saga

>>146898557
Dragonball is great because there aren't many THE WORLD IS AT STAKE plots, so there is a lot of room for flexibility and fun, which is what Toriyama is best at.

Whenever I'm discussing anime with coworkers, they always looked like they thought I was out of my mind for preferring DB to DBZ. I still dunno why.

Most long running shounen series like this become shit instead of deciding to not outstay their welcome, Dragon Ball isn't an exception.

Dragon Ball didn't take itself seriously. It was closer to earlier Akira works or Dragon Quest/Chrono Trigger.

In Dragon Ball Z, everyone takes everything like its a life or death situation. So the comedy gets lost. Doesn't help that the only thing holding up the comedy is Goku acting like a kid in a mans body.

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They do briefly wonder if Goku's ability to become a giant monkey is because he's some kind of weird space creature.

>>146898557
of course his background is canon. wtf?

>>146898557
It's explained the first episode you idiot, remember the fucking spaceship? Filthy fucking casual

I honestly wonder why Akira Toriyama didn't just make a new series altogether instead of extending off DB. Everything just seems so weird when you look back at it like Goku actually being an alien or Piccolo is not actually the king of demons and is just a random slug alien.

>>146903523

He's made many new series. He's doing one right now called Sandman. Dragon Ball just overtakes them.

>>146903489
>Has only watched Kai
>Calls others casual

>>146903523
I really wish he would get into making more one shots like Jaco and Sandland. They're fun as fuck.

The actual answer is because toriyama changed editors. And they are much more influential that you might think.

>>146898557
>Is Goku having an alien background even canon?
Yes, retard. What the hell's up with that stupid question?

>>146903027
>Doesn't help that the only thing holding up the comedy is Goku acting like a kid in a mans body.
That's not really true, but the general point is correct. Goku's retardation wasn't the main source of comedy in Z by a long shot. Hell, he wasn't even retarded in Z, certainly not like he's in Super.

>>146905794
In Z, he at least knew when to get angry at things. From what I've seen of Super, he's just a retard now.

>>146905766
There is no established canon in Dragon Ball until Toriyama says so.

Why do people who clearly know nothing about Dragon Ball try to have opinions on Dragon Ball?

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>everyone can do something useful
(bulma invents, oolong and puar transform, goku and yamatcha fight, etc.
>interesting areas like muscle tower and mushroom forest
>all sorts of weird fighters and monsters like Bacterian and the mutant namekians
>focus on capsules and cool tech
>seeing Japanese legends in characters
>cheerful music
>the strongest person didn't always win and tactics were a key part of winning bouts
>plenty of cool tournaments
>goku was center stage, but there were plenty of other people who could but heads with him
>more antics
>

These were a couple of the factors that made dragon ball better

>>146898557
Because it wasn't being shoehorned into a genre it wasnt and because the creator was having fun making it. Also consider that toryama had something to prove early on, once the money/fans rolled in he didn't have to, hence why he isn't as involved anymore and only does dbz and its spinoffs, the money rolls in while he does nothing but nod or shake his head. Also this: >>146900452
Shits older than it's fanbase by a long shot.

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>>146909001
>everyone can do something useful
This stopped when aliens became a thing.
Couldn't agree more with Your points, especially the cool places bit, scenery became scarce once adventuring was replaced with powerlevels. Fighting definitely used to be more dynamic, sad because AT is an ace at fight choreography and drawing it with impact when he tries. You can tell toryama wants to go back to db at times too, making goku a kid again, goten, parts of buu saga, bringing back the pilaf gang for dbs.

>>146903523
Making a new series is risky.

With manga, you can make a best selling hit series but the next manga you make after it can end up being a dud in popularity.

>>146900408
Most noobs are like that

>>146904396
That series has been dead for years.

>>146898557
Because adventure and comedy are more fun than endless brawling/fistfighting.

>>146903523
Because Jump had a cash cow and wanted it milked

>>146909164
Wasn't he already rolling in that dr.slump dough though?

>>146898557
>anthropomorphic animals
>monkey/human aliens
toriyama is a fucking furry, he used humans more and more because battle shounen market > furry market

>>146900219
i'd rather have world is at stake or GOOD tournament than shit like frieza coming back and them pretending like its a threat while also admitting he really isn't since even if one saiyan lost, the other could easily beat him AND whis/beerus could crush him if either desired.

>>146909331
As a kid I seriously though that he was another person. I mean they never showed him changing and shit.
He was another person right?

>>146912054
Even in his first appearance it should ahve been pretty obvious when he got nam to pretend to be master roshi. Also i seem to remember him having internal dialogue that was pretty obviously damning.
I also remember him flat out telling tenshinhan why he disguised himself to fight during the 22nd tournament so it had to have been revealed by that point.

>>146908228
And now it is canon.

>>146900219
almost every arc was about the world being at stake, except instead of using brute force the villains needed to use the dragonballs

>>146898557
Super Saiyan was a mistake

>>146903166
>Only moment when Yamcha was useful
; ;

What ever happened to all of master roshi's magic powers?
He used to be able to read minds and shoot lightning and seal piccolos but now he's just the kamehameha man

>>146913053
It turned from a fantasy focused to Acton focused series. Also magic seems pretty useless in DB Verse. Just look at the reality warping Kais and what their power is.

>>146913159
Isn't the problem they're just always an arc behind the main cast in being significant?
Kaioshin was able to restrain a ssj2 gohan if only for a second and was able to interfere with majin buu's attack to save gohan, he was probably cell games vegeta tier in destructive power, though i never understood why kibitokai didn't fight kid buu, they didn't use him against super gotenks buu because he was several orders of magnitude stronger than regular buu and he could always just be absorbed if he isn't significantly stronger, but kid buu should have been much weaker than kibito kai.
I seem to remember him even being confident enough to help against gotenks buu so he must have been powerful, or just really stupid.

>>146912054
Goku is that you?

>>146912505
Yamcha got rused by the Nam thing, but he actually put the (very obvious) pieces together.

>>146898557
Adventuring is fun, battling not so much.

>>146898557
Not until the timeskip between Goku vs Piccolo and Raditz.

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Shut up. OP. Goku was an overpowered mess in DB, I don't get wherre the love for DB comes from, it has the same problems as DBZ in the Piccolo arc, which, for some reason, is considered the best of DB. Saiyan-Freeza arc are the best arcs in the manga.

>>146903166
There's this too.

>>146898557
>animefags
It's the same shit, stop being contrarian faggots.

>>146909001
>>146909331
>>everyone can do something useful
Wrong. Everyone is just as useless, the only time where everyone is useful is in the first arc and in the tournament arcs (but obviously everyone has to have SOME screentime in the tournament arcs, but even then, Yamcha loses always in the first round as a measuring stick). In the Red Ribbon Army, only Goku mattered, with some very BRIEF seconds of screentime for Kuririn, Bulma and Roshi. In Baba's tournament, Kuririn and Yamcha jobbed immediately and it was Goku who won the whole thing. In the Piccolo arc, again, only Goku was relevant.

Believe it or not, they're more useful in DBZ. In the Saiyan arc, it was Piccolo who killed Raditz. Kuririn and Gohan held Nappa back until Goku got back and later helped in the fight against Vegeta, with Yajirobe coming through and slicing his tail. In the Namek arc, Goku wasn't even present for 90% of it, it was all Gohan, Kuririn and Vegeta. Same for the Android and Boo arcs, Goku was absent for a majority of those arcs, so I don't see how you can say with a straight face that characters were more useful in DB than they were in DBZ.

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>>146916703
>Yamcha jobbed
You can't "job" if you aren't strong.

>>146916778
Yamcha was somewhat strong in the first arc, but then he was left behind after Goku trained with Roshi.

>>146916418
>the Piccolo arc, which, for some reason, is considered the best of DB.
Really? Because the Piccolo Daimao arc is shit, it's just a copy of the fight against tao pai pai

>>146916946
I know, I think it's one of the worst arcs in the series, it's mostly just a rehash of the Red Ribbon Army arc with a lazy, convenient power-up for Goku. But I always see people everywhere, be it here, be it on DB forums, rating it extremely highly.

>>146916418
>the Piccolo arc, which, for some reason, is considered the best of DB
Since when?

>>146916903
>Yamcha was somewhat strong in the first arc
No he wasn't, he got his ass kicked by a weaken Goku.

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>>146916946
>>146916991
>Really? Because the Piccolo Daimao arc is shit
>I know, I think it's one of the worst arcs in the series,
Shit taste

>>146917074
You're misremembering. He beat Goku, it was when Goku had his stomach full that he lost.

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>>146917142
>You're misremembering.
Nah you are.

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>>146917194
This is a win for Yamcha dude.

>>146917135
Not them but i have to agree to a point. I like the Piccolo arc but it has the worst asspull in the series.
There was also Toriyama forgetting that Kinto'un (is that right?) can't be destroyed.

>>146917267
After which Goku came back and did this >>146917194
>he got his ass kicked by a weaken Goku.

>>146917135
>new enemy appears
>kills somebody
>Goku gets angry and fights him
>almost dies
>has to climb a tower
>has to drink magic water for power up
>defeats the bad guy

Oh yeah, I really liked Goku vs Tao Pai Pai, I mean, Piccolo Daimao

>>146916778
It's funny because job is a wrestling term for wrestlers billed as too weak to win. They constantly loose to build up more popular wrestlers' w/l records. They are called jobbers because loosing in literally their job. It has nothing to do with strength.

>>146917350
>Reductive Fallacy (Oversimplification)

>>146917288
>but it has the worst asspull in the series
?

>>146917446
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect
>Want a quick way to show how dangerous one of your unknown characters is? Simple, make them do well or win in a fight with a character that the audience already knows is tough.

Dragon Ball isn't wrestling

>>146917480
Oh you didn't know? The magic god water actually exists and makes you stronger, free power ups doing nothing! I didn't tell before because, stuff, just drink it ok?

>>146917615
>I didn't tell before because, stuff, just drink it ok?
Because it has a great chance of killing whoever drinks it.

>>146917707
Which didn't happen, so I don't see the problem

It's just like Super, Goku getting free power ups doing nothing

>>146917936
You don't see the problem with a chance of dying?

>>146917343
No, what I posted is the last page of the fight, Yamcha won.

>>146918011
Not if nobody ever dies on-screen. If they just tell you every time "oh you can die", then it doesn't matter, it's still an asspull, like SSB Kaioken.

>>146918733
>being this retarded

Not him, but you can clearly see that in this page >>146917194 Bulma woke up, whereas in this page >>146917267 she's still asleep.

>>146918777
>> it's still an asspull, like SSB Kaioken.
What

>>146918777
>Not if nobody ever dies on-screen
Doesn't matter it's still the reason why Karin didn't tell him.

>>146898557
Personally I think DB was better because there was actually room for Goku to improve. You could see him getting measurably stronger over the series instead of just dying his hair a different color every now and again.

>>146918777
Why did they even bother having goku and vegeta do all that training if they were still going to be basically indistinguishably powered from before?
All it did was raise questions about how close they are to the limits of their power and how much of an asspull the next power up will be.

Is anyone else kept awake at night by power level inconsistencies sometimes?
Is that weird?

>>146920242
No

But I do wonder if they bothered to revive the people Nappa killed when he and Vegeta arrived on Earth

Or if the Namekians wished back the village Vegeta killed

>>146917350
so, what will be the new power up that Goku will use to defeat Black?

>>146921077
Black is probably trunks or vegeta's prey.
I can't see him surviving and I cant see goku killing him so goku will probably take the faggot kai.

>>146904396
wut

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>>146904396
>He's doing one right now called Sandman
Anon, I don't know how to tell you this...

Because the tone shifted from adventure to pure battle.
>>146900408
>>146903027
You guys do realize that the entire manga is just called Dragon Ball right?
>>146904396
Are you talking about Sandland? Because that was a one volume mini-series from 16 years ago.
His most recent thing was the Galactic Patrolman Jaco which was also a one volume mini-series and that was back in 2013.

>>146909001
>the strongest person didn't always win and tactics were a key part of winning bouts
Nigga you are literally pulling shit out of your ass.

Literally none of your points are exclusive or accurate.

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>>146918777
>There's a giant risk,b-but if you manage to pull through,t-then there's no risk!

>>146923606
Were Neil Gaiman and Toriyama the same person all along? kek

>>146924080
Also
Super Holy Water:
>The journey towards the top of the tower and trying to catch Korin equivalent to rigorous training
>Water itself doesn't do anything
Super Kami Water:
>Water is literally poisonous and tastes like complete shit,will kill you 99.9% of the time
>Goku had to endure an entire day of pain from drinking it,determination made him pull through and he was rewarded with a power up

Different things,anon.

>>146898557
Wow, I always like bulma wearing in that in the red ribbon saga.

>>146923621
>You guys do realize that the entire manga is just called Dragon Ball right?

No one cares. There is a significant enough change after the saiyan saga to make distinction between DB and DBZ for conversation sake.

DBZ stars at a time in the manga when Toriyama completely reinvented the characters and dragonball world. You can yell "animefag" all you want, but the series changes tremendously when Radditz arrives and the alien backstory stuff is installed.

>>146925910
This.

The kind of people that say "hurrrff muh whole manga is called Dragon Ball" are probably the same dumb weeaboos that insist on saying the japanese names

>IT'S KURIRIN, NOT KRILLIN!
>MAKANKOSAPPO, NOT SPECIAL BEAM CANNON!

etc.

>>146926637
Kuririn is retarded. But so are "spirit bomb" and Genki-dama. The spics got it right with their objectively best dub

>>146925910
>There is a significant enough change after the saiyan saga to make distinction between DB and DBZ for conversation sake.
The stakes are definitely raised but the Frieza saga still maintained the sense of adventure. People just don't realize Goku was being phased out in favor of Gohan so they complain about the lack of Goku making it seem like filler but it's the last time DB actually feels like an ensemble cast on an adventure. Anyone who bitches about Frieza saga is a contrarian cunt

>>146925910
>There is a significant enough change after the saiyan saga to make distinction between DB and DBZ for conversation sake.
No not really.

>>146923720
>interesting areas like muscle tower and mushroom forest
name some interesting locals in dragonball Z aside from the otherworld filler and arguably namek
>>all sorts of weird fighters and monsters like Bacterian and the mutant namekians
name one villian outside of buu who didn't spam beams
>>focus on capsules and cool tech
how often did we see capsules in dragon ball
>>seeing Japanese legends in characters
name one in dragon ball
>>cheerful music
not so much
>>the strongest person didn't always win
Roshi or Jackie Chun defeated Goku in the first martial arts tournament, Tien defeated goku somehow

>>146927027
>>146927097

Denial. There is an insane drop in quality and you know it.

Should have ended the series after the Picollo saga.

>>146926906
>The spics got it right with their objectively best dub
Explain. If none of the moves were renamed to different types of Mexican foods then I seriously doubt they were superior

>>146927409
>being this retarded
wew

>>146921077

Probably use the button from all-sama and just say that he won't be his friend if black is around.

for original DB (before saiyan-saga), rate these in order and explain why:
-manga
-sub
-dub

1. Sub
2. Manga
3. Dub

Sub does a better job at localizing than Viz's manga translation and the dub imo

>>146904521
Well the only reason Cell had forms is because Toriyama liked each design he did but editors kept telling him to change the look of him.

So he just turned them into forms.