Lawful Evil or Chaotic Good?

>>146730254
Chaotic Good is a meme, it doesn't exist.

>>146730328
My katana says otherwise.

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>>146730254
Lawful Evil is the only tolerable alignment

>>146730254
Matter of the perspective?

>>146730254
Lawful Evil. Mindbreaking the hive queens kidnapping babies and planning genocide made him cross the line to evil.

>>146730254
Squealer is trustworthy and a decent human being.

Where does the "Squealer did nothing wrong" meme come from? He obviously did everything wrong

Why did the priests not remove death feedback via hypnosis on Shisei?

>>146731169
>He obviously did everything wrong
>fighting to break free from the shackles of evil oppressors
>wrong

He did everything for the good of his people.

>>146731452
>evil oppressors
His people were created by these oppressors, if anything he should be grateful
They weren't treated that badly either

>>146731541
>His people were created
Did you watch the anime at all? His people were actual ningen before being distorted into these horrible abominations.

>>146731636
But they're not anymore
It's accurate to say that they were created by humans by genetic manipulation

>>146731666
But they are treated like shit and lead horrible lives, while the humans are enjoying good plentiful joyous lives.

>>146731666
I could "create" a paraplegic out of you. Would you be grateful?

>>146731720
>treated like shit
PK users could've just killed them all in the very beginning but they didn't
What's wrong with asserting your dominance over an objectively inferior species? I don't understand.
They're no different from monkeys or some other similar species

>>146731744
Not the same thing though

>>146731834
>They're no different from monkeys
I should've known from the beginning that you are just funposting.

>>146731834
>PK users could've just killed them all
They would have preferred it probably, as they showed they are ready to throw their lives away in the battle for freedom and equality.
>objectively inferior species
That's the point, they were forcefully made inferior.

>>146731169
Squealer was a human, you dipshit.

>>146730328
>chaotic good doesn't exist
What is Libertarianism?
>>146730254
Squealer for president!

>>146731926
>>146732002
Tell me how it makes any difference. PK users are a superior species. Why would there be any ethical concern regarding the lives of bakenezumi? They're not humans, they're derived from humans, and even then they're not derived from PK users, just normal humans

>>146731931
>They would have preferred it
I was referring to the very beginning of the problem, when bakenezumi were created in order to remove the death feedback problem. They could've just eliminated all of them right then, but they didn't.
>forcefully made inferior
They were already inferior since they weren't PK users

>>146731834
>PK users could've just killed them all in the very beginning but they didn't
Because we are not animals. This is society, we have rules.
>They're no different from monkeys
Except they are very much sentient even after turning into queerats over generations, and the only difference before the transformation was the wicked power called "cantus".
There, I bit, now you can go do something else.

>>146731541
They used to be non-magical human beings until magical humans turned them into that.

>>146732016
Libertarianism is true neutral, though. And applying political ideologies to alignments is stupid anyway

>>146732016
I honestly wouldn't mind. Seems like a strong leader that would change my country's into something like Norway (sans the niggers).

>>146732078
I know but that doesn't change anything, they still lacked PK. From the moment PK appeared, humans that had it could already be considered a different species from normal humans
>>146732072
>we have rules
Against eliminating a potentially harmful species?
>the wicked power called "cantus"
You're the one baiting here. Humans that have PK are objectively superior to those who do not

Why didn't someone just sacrifice themself and kill the psycho brat? The whole war would have been over in 5 minutes.

>>146732215
>muh superior race
>might makes right

Fuck off back to pol.

>Squealer only wanted to liberate him and his kin.
>He planned for a war more than tens of years.
>He challenged himself and made his mind to become a leader and a savior of the race.

Their race basically went through a modern slavery, having to do all the mortifying jobs and be treated like half-beings.

I would vote him for the president

>>146732341
Yeah, I wondered as well. Some people were selfless enough to do it as well, like Shisei or the priests.
>>146732379
Not an argument.
Do you feel bad when you kill a bug? Of course not you hypocrite.
>might makes right
Biologically yes it does

>>146732215
>Humans that have PK are objectively superior to those who do not
They have incredible power. Take an ordinary human, and then PK users have everything they have and then some. But if you don't see how cantus was the whole fucking problem here and how humanity cornered itself onto the brink of existence because of it, I cannot help you. Even if they had destroyed all non-PK users, the problem of using it against each other would have persisted. Hence death feedback, attack inhibition and karma fiends would have come up sooner or later, anyway.
Hence cantus is a wicked power.
>Against eliminating a potentially harmful species?
Against murdering, and dealing with murderers according to laws. If non-PK humans murdered out of jealousy, they could have been dealt with just as before cantus came up.

>>146732526
The society they built worked perfectly, and would have continued to work had they eliminated the bakenezumi. Death feedback was the appropriate solution to avoid murder.
>wicked power
That doesn't really mean anything though.

>Against murdering
But murder is only called murder if it's against humans. In that society, "murder" could only be applied to killing other PK humans, not bakenezumi. They're a different race.

>>146732484
Careful not to cut yourself.

Also, another sentient being is not comparable to a bug.

>>might makes right
>Biologically yes it does
So if a chad fucked you in the ass you would have no problems with that?

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>>146732675
>edgy
instead of spouting memes, how about you refute what I said?

>another sentient being
How is it not comparable? As long as one of the species holds superiority over the other one, what should stop them from asserting their dominance?

>if a chad fucked you in the ass
>implying I would leave my house in the first place
Also strawman. And to actually answer that question, even though I wouldn't like it that wouldn't change anything to the biological fact that might makes right, are you stupid anon?

Squealer did what he had to do for the sake of his people. I wish our leaders were more like him.

>>146732672
>But murder is only called murder if it's against humans.
Now we could talk about what it means to be "human."
The reason most people do not feel bad about crushing bugs, I imagine, is because on some level they know or think that bugs do not have the mental capacity to understand pain in the same way you do, i.e. because their nervous system is not fully developed in the same way as that of humans. People feel much more squeamish if you told them to "crush" a dog. We view it as inhumane, and would wince if we felt the pain we cause it.
Humans and PK users have exactly the same capacity for pain, and the way death feedback is designed actually proves that they don't really see each other as a different species. Otherwise, molding normal humans into queerats would be unnecessary.
>The society they built worked perfectly
Except it didn't, at all.

>>146732838
>As long as one of the species holds superiority over the other one, what should stop them from asserting their dominance?
Well, I don't know, compassion and empathy? It would stop me from killing or hurting even a dog.

>Also strawman. And to actually answer that question, even though I wouldn't like it that wouldn't change anything to the biological fact that might makes right, are you stupid anon?
>biological fact
>fact
There are no "facts" in moral discussions, anon.

You know what I love? When people keep making the same thread every day.

>>146731169
Jacobins and their ideological descendents. They'll justify any evil so long as it's in the pursuit of their political ends.

>>146733164
Haven't seen this thread in like 2-3 years.

>>146732996
From the moment PK appeared, though, non-PK humans and PK humans became different species. Wouldn't you agree on that point at least?
>Humans and PK users have exactly the same capacity for pain
Yes, so a PK user killing a human would feel bad about it because of how similar they are phenotypically. But that's just emotional, and not that different from the emotional distress they would feel if they killed another animal.

>molding normal humans into queerats would be unnecessary
It was necessary to do it because of death feedback though, wasn't it? And death feedback existed in order to prevent PK users from killing each other. The fate of normal humans never really mattered in the first place, the genetic manipulation was a convenient way of getting rid of them. There was only one step between creating the queerats and killing them.
If anything, the latter would've been the more "ethical" or "humane" option

>it didn't
It did until Squealer fucked things up.
It was entirely possible to prevent Karma demons from causing damage. And if they hadn't been stupid they would've given Shisei's family the means of killing human beings if the situation required it.

>>146733097
>compassion and empathy
I'm not talking about morality, I'm talking about how you could argue against it logically.

>There are no "facts" in moral discussions
See above

Nothing good would have come from a Queerat society anyways,Squealer only wanted power. Even if he had won he would've continue waging war and eslaving his own people.

The only reason why queerats still continue to exist is because Pk users kept them in line.

>>146733571
This, queerats were primitive and clearly less intelligent than humans. Squealer and Kiroumaru were exceptions (which is why they were military leaders)

>>146730254
Just misunderstood.

>>146733350
The defining trait of a person (not human) is his ability to reason. Modern ethics are based around the inherent rights of beings capable of reasoning. That's why a queerat would have rights equal to those of a normal human or PK human, because despite their varying bodies and powers, their capacity to reason is the same.
You're applying a very archaic approach to ethics and laws akin to what Western society grew out of around 1776.

>>146733350
>non-PK humans and PK humans became different species
Maybe so. But what consequences does that have? Even if they are considered different species now, which you'd have to ask a biologist about, does it follow that different species can just murder each other? We already have laws protecting animals, at the very least protecting them from undue pain.
>because of how similar they are phenotypically
They are probably not THAT dissimilar genotypically speaking, either.
>But that's just emotional
No, you do not get to say it is "just" emotional, because that is what the whole thing is about!
The whole "Rules of the jungle! Who would win in a fight? PK users, that's who!" is true, but completely irrelevant to me. Humans held themselves to certain standards before PK appeared, and only gave them up because they wanted to keep their power. Power that brought them to the brink of destruction.
>And if they hadn't been stupid
Then they'd have abandoned that shit immediately.

>>146732957
Yeah, he also exterminated several colonies that didn't agree with him and then basically enslaved the rest through the capture of their queens.
Nothing like violent coercion to be a good leader.

>>146733350
>From the moment PK appeared, though, non-PK humans and PK humans became different species
You don't seem to understand the concept of species.

>>146730505
I dont know which is more surprising, an actual spoiler in a spoiler box, or a spoiler being actually spoiler boxed properly.

>>146733773
>what Western society grew out of around 1776.
What makes you think republican ideals of equality are better than what we had before?

>>146733874
That's literally what different species are

>>146730254
Neutral Good while the PK users are Lawful Evil

The PK users are by their very nature evil and the queerats were vastly inferior so he needed to use drastic measures to have any chance of defeating the monsters who destroyed the world.

>>146730254
I'm gonna go with
>muh perspective

>>146732341
>>146732484
Not how it works.

The feedback can happen even before the act of killing. Just the mere thought of deciding to do it to another human would likely kill someone.

>>146732341
They still have to overcome their bodies reaction to death feedback in the time it takes to overcome the pain the kid will realise cantus is being used against it and kill them.

>>146733773
>Humans, capable of reason
Humans are capable of rationalizing the decisions they already make, in practice they don't make decisions based on reason. Humans are p-zombies.
Being able to reason means being able to do logic to do math. Both logic and math are apriori, so any being incapable of perfect logic and deriving the entirety of math isn't a rational creature, humans are far from being rational beings though some are less inferior than others, but all fall incredibly short of being fully rational.

>>146733164
The last thread about squealer was the one I made in July.

It got 400 posts with 50 posters.

>>146734018
If they are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, they are the same species.
Can normal humans and PK humans reproduce fertile offspring?
I really don't remember if this is said. If they actually can't, my bad then.

>>146733773
Your post reeks of self-righteousness
Whether or not that approach is "archaic" and something our society "grew out" of, you're basing yourself on the assumption that modern ethics are the only, objective way of deciding what rights should be given to living beings
>>146733817
>does it follow that different species can just murder each other
Considering that the queerat's existence posed a threat to human civilization, I'd say yes in that case.
>not THAT dissimilar
Perhaps but the argument stays the same either way
>that is what the whole thing is about
If you're assuming that Squealer was right, then yes. But otherwise, no.
>keep their power
No, they wanted to survive. As PK appeared, either PK humans had to die, or the normal ones.
>they'd have abandoned that shit immediately
But PK is an improvement.
>>146734679
I don't know if it was ever mentioned anywhere.
If they turn out to be the same species, then my point would still stand, if only because the existence of PK would force one of the two groups to eliminate the other one.

>>146734428
The ability to reason is another way to describe intelligence. Something that is extremely unequal. To treat people of differing intellect the same is tyranny. You need more laws for the protection of stupid people that would interfere with the freedom of more intelligent people.

>>146730254
So I just finished reading the novel.
To settle the argument we always have...

Were Squealer and the mole rats human?

Satorou asked Saki this near the end of the book. This was after they realized that the non-Cantus humans were turned into the molerats.

Well, Saki implies that they are not human in her response. This is true in both the novel and anime.

To finish this debate, Saki goes into the building where Squealer (he has been turned into a mound of living goo) is kept on permanent showcase while being shocked with electricity. She talks to Squealer for a little while and apologizes for taking so long.

She then sets him on fire and watches him stop moving.

She leaves and that is the end of the novel/anime.

This clearly indicates that she did not consider them to be human like her. No death feedback occurred.

But she definitely considered him and his people to be deserving of rights and compassion. That is why she chose to put an end to his misery as soon as she could.

>>146734764
>Considering that the queerat's existence posed a threat to human civilization, I'd say yes in that case.
That only came about with the invention of attack inhibition and death feedback, because then the normal humans could kill PK users but not vice versa. Without either, normal humans could not have done shit.
If neither existed, normal humans that tried to kill PK users for whatever reason (jealousy, feeling threatened) could have been dealt with just like before cantus came up.
Incidentally, is there a reason why normal humans couldn't have attack inhibition/death feedback? I think it was because both worked by using cantus against the user's body, no?
>If you're assuming that Squealer was right, then yes. But otherwise, no.
Pardon, what?
>No, they wanted to survive.
They wanted to survive, but also keep their power. With all their genetic engineering, was there really no way to remove cantus altogether? If there was, they chose not to do that.
>But PK is an improvement.
In what sense? Establishing dominance over all non-human species on the planet had already been achieved. Speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, how is it an improvement, in terms of being adapted to your environment? Certainly unnecessary for killing animals, so how? Please do not tell me evolution is some one-way street with a purpose and a "more highly evolved" as opposed to "less evolved".

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Has there ever been a character more True Neutral than Benten?

>>146735625
I don't know this anime
Should I watch it?

>>146735625
Poland

>>146735661
Yes. It's my favorite.

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>>146735625

>>146730254
DID NOTHING WRONG

Lawful Evil though.

>>146732379
>he doesn't think races can be objectively ranked from best to worst
>he doesn' think that in nature might makes right
A fucking mental disease.

>>146734917
They were not human anymore, but they used to be. That's the whole point, you goddamn idiot.

>>146736074
No one (well maybe one autist ITT) is disputing the fact the non-cantus humans were turned into the molerats.

The main arguments that I always hear in these threads, is that the molerats were
1. Human
2. The actual humans while Cantus users are not.
3. Morally human

I simply proved that the first two are not correct, and the third is considered by Saki and Satoru to be in a grey zone.

>>146735754
Araragi isn't even on the Neutral scale.

>>146735502
>was there really no way to remove cantus altogether?
And why the hell would they do that

>>146736447
That dumb bitch Saki could close her heart to Squealer but that doesn't make him non-human.

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Both societies were broken and would have eventually self-destructed

>>146736945
the ending with the kiromaru and kid was weird as well, the thing i got in the end was that death feedback isn't against humans but against those you consider your species. so it's less biological/genetic and more physiological/emotional

>>146736447
It doesn't matter if they're human or not, the whole death feedback is psychological and not genetic.
This is why she was able to kill squealer in the end and why that evil chick got death feedback from killing kiromaru.

>>146732453
He also wanted to become a tyrant himself
Squealer did great things, but he is no saint
(Though saints are not "saints")

>>146736937
>And why the hell would they do that
It lead to problems. Hell, even if you do not want to remove it, at least try to give it to those who do not have it, at least in the next generation?
Really, "let's make it so cantus users have attack inhibition and death feedback, and turn all humans who do not have PK into rat people over generations so we can still harm them" is down at the bottom on the list of things I would try.

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I just watched this anime recently. What really happened to the best girl? Was it explained in the source material?

>>146737611
they never actually ran away

>>146737611
She was forced to fuck Mamoru to give birth to Squealer's nuke, after that she was disposed.

>>146730328
Do people not understand what the chaos/law axle means?
Being chaotic means you have no regard for rules and laws. It's not about morality like good/evil is and it doesn't mean completely wanton behaviour, even when the case is chaotic evil.
A chaotic good character always strives to help others and do good but will never care about really adhering to any rules and laws. They might not actively break the law and disrupt order, but it also is never a problem, especially if it is needed to help others.
A lawful and neutral good character will help and do good just the same but will face a dilemma if prompted to break law in doing so.
For a chaotic character it doesn't even go into consideration.

>>146737611

Breeding and disposal

>>146737693
how would squealer go about forcing them to fuck? sure he could drug anna like he did with the queen, but am I supposed to believe that mamoru jest went with it?

>>146737611
She fugged that guy and once she gave birth, Squealer killed them both and raised the child to be a killing machine.

>>146732484
>Do you feel bad when you kill a bug?
I would if the bug could talk and had an intelligence comparable to mine.

>>146737838

Maybe threatening to hurt either one of them if they didn't. Maybe by using drugs

>>146737059
this is literally said out loud by Saki when she tells satoru and the other queerrat her plan to kill the Messiah

>>146738189
>>146737838
>>146737693
I don't think there was any coercion in giving birth, it most likely happened naturally
Even if there's that scene with the queen and saki wondering if you could do that with a human (if I recall correctly)

>>146732016
>libertarianism
>chaotic good
It's just another special snowflake case anon

>>146732016
>What is Libertarianism
Chaotic Autist

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>>146730489

No respect for authority defines chaotic alignment, so squeeler is definitely chaotic.

The good vs evil axes gets a little more muddy, but I side evil: he exploited his weapon and wanted more to satisfy his own vision.