>All Jojos are self-inserts >but Shirou isn't Fucking

I thought the jojo MCs were based of american celebrities.

Who cares what they think. Fate is shit. That's why it's on its way out. UBW killed all discussion. Thank goodness.

Why is 4chan so obsessed with self-inserting?

>>146656954
>JoJo and Fate
>edit of a 3D reaction image
This thread belongs on /v/.

None of the JoJo MCs are self-inserts, JoJo is basically the antithesis to shitty shonens and shittier MCs.

Jonathan, Joseph, Jolyne, and Johnny especially are some of the greatest action series protagonists ever written, and one of them has influenced many different genres and demographics of anime massively.

When you watch JoJo, you don't self insert and try to imagine yourself as the characters, it's like you're getting to observe some really awesome people do really incredible stuff. If anything the side characters are the self inserts for The Viewer, and not the MCs.

>>146657347
But no one mentioned videogames except for you. This doesn't add up.

>>146657381
Don't bother. He's one of those guys, who get triggered by anything and everything.

>>146656954
None of the jojos have actual developments like Shirou.

>>146657381
Where do you think Shirou comes from?

>>146657443
Shirou doesn't get any development, he stayed retarded, proud to be retarded, and got rewarded from being retarded in 2 out of 3 routes.

>>146657353
Fate is an amazing story with the best magic worldbuilding (that is even more expanded with the other stories from Type-Moon), very layered storytelling broken in 3 routes, where each one introduces plot points, characterization and foreshadowing for the twists that appear in the next, and each route is focused on different aspects. It's a story that exceeds in having tons of well-written twists (you MUST play the routes in order and also look at the Servants' stats to understand their abilities, otherwise you may be thinking there are asspulls), great themes of altruism, justice, giving a meaning to life, morality, what is evil (in a unique execution, you'll know what I mean in Heavens Feel), redemption, responsibility, etc., and all the important characters are excellent, although only some of them are fleshed out immediately in the first route, most take time. The fights are amazing and well detailed, and the effects and soundtrack are impressive. And of course the use of interactive elements, with many choices that lead to unexpected and revelatory bad ends

>>146657523
>Staying true to his ideals is being retarded
wew lad

>>146657869
We're talking about development, look at the previous post. Staying true to unrealistic ideal is the antithesis of development. Stop moving the goalpost fatefag

>>146657443
Jonathan, Jolyene and Johnny went through changes. Other Jojos like Josuke and Giorno have backstories that explain why they are the way they are.

Being dynamic is not a necessary because not all stories are about characters going through dramatic changes.

>>146657763
looks like copypasta

>>146658058
>lots of text = copy pasta

>>146656954
>Falseflagging with Jojo
Fuck you

>>146658159
What's this then?>>146657698

>>146656954
What else do you expect with fatebabies anyway? Their self insert harem protag can't even carry his own show like all Jojos do.

>>146658537
To be fair, some Jojo carries the part better than others.

>>146657975
That's nonsense. In Fate, his character development was in his bonding with Saber & looking into her past. In UBW, his character development was getting confronted with literally his future self & ending up with a more realistic version of his ideals. In HF, we find that he abandons those ideals for his loved ones & that's it. His desire to protect his loved ones was something always there even in the other routes.

>>146656954
Both are shit, now fuck off.

>>146657975
This implies that abandoning those beliefs are the only way forward. That's like saying that the only way Jotaro can develop is if he abandons his friends & becomes evil.

>>146656954
How can one even compare JoJo and Fate?

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>>146660204
>How can one even compare JoJo and Fate?

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>>146660204

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>>146660204

>>146656954
There doesn't need to be any explanation. Fate is a self-insert work. Go to /fgo/. Someone will tell you about it.
Anyone telling you otherwise are the same as those idiots who still don't want to accept that Nasu called FSN a shonen work.

>>146657869
Staying true to stupid ideals, no matter how beautiful, is retarded and stupid.

>>146661127
Fatefags always say that Nasu doesn't know what he's talking about. It seems like Fate has already became the God's gift to humanity that surpassed the author himself. So Nasu's interpretation is meaningless.

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>>146656954

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>>146657523

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>>146657129
>>146657975
>>146658537
>>146661127
>>146661142
>>146661284

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>>146661335
>>146661360
>>146661390
Please stop

>>146658862
Well at least jojotards aren't that delusional as fatefags.

>>146661390
HOW is it bait when Nasu himself said that Fate (and Tsukihime) are self-insert works?
HOW is it bait when Nasu himself said FSN was a fucking shonen, not seinen?

Jojo is just a series having fun. Fate takes itself too seriously at times.

>>146656954
F/sn would be more interesting if Joseph replaced Shitrou as the MC. Imagine Joseph ineracting with Rin and Gil he'll fucking piss off all fateshit characters.

>>146656954
No jojo are sel-inserts unless you think thta a successful and strong guy is like you?

>>146656954
I am a fatefag and Shirou is a fucking self-insert, shit should be fucking obvious. Who the fuck would think otherwise?

>>146662338
Same people who think seibah is a deep character.

>>146661453
source: my ass

>baiting 2 of the most cancerous fanbases in a single post.

Well done *tips fedora*

>it's a jojofags and fatefags have a meltdown and scream bait loudly at each other

It makes me happy knowing that mods will go through this thread and cleanse /a/ of almost two dozen idiots

>>146663305
The Secret of Mahoutsukai no Yoru's Birth, TYPE-MOON Ace 2
tsukikan.com/misc/the-secret-of-mahou-tsukai-no-yorus-birth.html

>>146663323
There wasn't any bait in the statement made by OP at all.

>>146656954
They're all inserts.

>>146663481
read the thread

>>146657353
>doesn't mention Josuke, the best JoJo

>>146660204
I haven't experienced much of the Fate franchise, but I kind of assume that the whole "you get an ancient mythological hero as a familiar" concept was inspired by Stands. Kind of like how Shaman King, S-Cry-Ed and especially Persona brazenly ripped off the concept.

>>146664782
That's not how you spell Joseph

>>146656954

>Make a bait post and try to get two large fanbases to brawl

I like your style.

>>146664782
Sorry senpai, but jolyne is best jojo.

>>146664840
J-O-S-E-P-H

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>This thread

>>146662338
Are you a retard? Do you even know what a self-insert is? You can't self-insert as Shirou, period. Hell, in the VN you have to choose the opposite of what you, the reader, would do in that situation if you want to stay alive. Common sense choices end in dead and bad ends.

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i only self insert as women, and Jolyne was Difficult

>>146669395
>Common sense choices end in dead and bad ends.

That's pretty common in VNs though. Hell even in the earliest text adventures shit's already like this. Otherwise it would be too predictable. It's just common game design that has nothing to do with the character building.

I can't believe anybody with a little bit of taste can like Shirou. He single-handedly ruined any potential Fate franchise had. They should remake Fate with Rin as main character.

>>146656954
Fate was by Type Moon, right? They made Melty Blood and that's a fun game, so it gets a pass. Jojo has no fun games aside from Heritage, and the fanbase and anime fans are absolute cancer, trying to weasel into every fucking thread.

>>146663841
you fucking destroyed that FAKE ANON. he was a tripfag in disguise.

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>>146675858

>>146662338

Nice falseflagging

>>146675514

Shirou is amazing though

F/SN is just as epic as it is because he is the main character

>>146657271
Because people that hate themselves can't stand the fact of characters being jovial or competent.
It's pretty much the same reason they think "suffering" animes are mature.

>>146656954

Nobody wants to be Shirou.

Shirou's crazy. He's the guy who wakes up, goes for a 10KM run, eats a simple breakfast, goes to work, comes home and studies.

What does he want to do with his life? He wants to be an aid worker, or a UN peacekeeper. I wouldn't wish that life on my worst enemy, fuck. I want to get through life by doing the minimum amount of work for the most amount of money I don't deserve.

It would honestly really suck to be Shirou. Like, what is it about him that you would enjoy? The dead parents? The dead foster-father? The mindset that makes his life a living hell?

>>146656954
>All Jojos are self-inserts
I don't think I've ever heard this

>>146680353

Yeah, I could never dream of being that fabulous. I once got into a fistfight in a Rastafarian clothing store, that's the closest I've got.

>>146680221
>>146679214
>>146669395

>>146663841

Every Jojo is much better than Shitrou.

>>146680221
He gets to fuck the waifus.

He had super sekrit sword chuuni power, got a super hot fiercely loyal foreigner with DFC thrown at him, and got to go along Teenage Chuunibyo Magical Adventure.

That's all you need to be a self insert vessel for otakus. They want to be lifted out their mundane sad life, be a hero chuuni with dark past, and got to fuck the waifus and beat the big bad.

http://tsukikan.com/misc/the-secret-of-mahou-tsukai-no-yorus-birth.html
>Nasu: In terms of the main topic, I hope people will feel like they have just watched a great movie after playing the game. Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters.

>Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios

>projecting yourselves as the heroes

>ITT:Battle of cancerous fanbases.

>>146680221
>Nobody wants to be Shirou.
Nah man, I wanna pass through my enemies by being autistic and retarded without consequences.

I also wanna fuck a qt blone girl with a royal status calling me master, the popular girl in my school, and the submissive slut.

Johhny>Josuke=Shirou>Joseph>Jolyne>Jonathan>>>Shit>>>Jotaro=Giorno

Haven't read JJL yet.

>>146680221
Is that the realistic view of Shirou's "suffering"? He has good life compared to mine desu.

>>146680353
Only Shiroufags brought that up.

>>146680221
Well that's just your opinion man.

I sure as fuck want to be Shirou instead of myself because at least I get to fuck Rin in the ass. And living with an strong ideal like that is at least more meaningful than what I am right now anyway. I don't care about suffering or die for that to be honest. Real life is already like that minus the waifus and interesting world setting. So why the fuck not?

And why are you people so against the idea of "self-inserting" anyway? Why would you respect a character if there's nothing at all relatable or desirable to you? Why would you look up to Shirou staying true to his ideal if you never ever wanted one yourself?

>>146680782

>Nasu's words
>meaning anything
>when he retcons then time and time again

>>146656954
>self-insert as a gay man
>i'm gay now guise
>nice butt, fagg.

Everything about jojo is fucking gay.

>>146680998

Projecting yourself just means going inside their head and living their story through them, which is what happens in Tsukihime and Fate, none of Nasu' VN have a self insert protag you can full control, they have very well defined characteristics

If you self insert into Shirou like >>146681277 and >>146682233, it just means you're doing it wrong

>>146657271
Why is storytelling so obsessed with making characters relatable to their audience?

>>146682432
>none of Nasu' VN have a self insert protag you can full control, they have very well defined characteristics

Well that is like most VN though. By your definition the only self-insertable characters are the faceless non-existent MCs whose sole purpose is dicking. Those exist in nothing but nukige.

And how do you "rightfully" self insert into a character anyway? One can always self insert into a character if it's relatable or desirable. It doesn't have to have no personalities at all to achieve that.

>>146681493
I would trade my life in exchange for Shirou's.

>>146682432
>If you self insert into Shirou like anon and anon, it just means you're doing it wrong
Otakus self-insert for that very reasons.

>>146682432
>none of Nasu' VN have a self insert protag you can full control, they have very well defined characteristics
HAREM MANGA MCs all have very well defined characteristics and you CANNOT control them at all. Because manga (and light novels) have zero choices for you to choose. Because you just read it.

And everyone considers them self-inserts. Your criteria for non-self-insertion makes no sense at all. VNs have more choice than manga/LNs, allowing for greater insertion than otherwise.

>>146656954
They aren't though, you falseflagging nigger

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/a/ has a very broad definition of "self insert characters".
Some characters are obviously meant to be extremely relatable, and that MC is super special/all the girls love him in an effort to pander to a "certain" audience who like that. This is /a/'s most basic definition. However, chances are that all male main characters are pandered to to a certain extent. That's why demographics exist.

Actual self-insert characters (ones that you were meant to pretend to be as) only exist in nukige. Yes, some faggots actually self-insert into anime but those that do probably aren't going to just self-insert into terrible low budget battle harem adaptations.

Therefore, its fucking pointless to use "self-insert" as an insult because its a buzzword. Try something like "This character's personality isn't interesting" or "This anime panders more than it tries to tell a good story"

>>146684445
Yes. I don't see why some people give the phrase itself such a strong negative identity. It just means that you want be the character and experience things yourself.

Whether the character is well written or not is irrelevant. Like a well built fantasy world can make people want to be in the story to try out things themselves. And that's how Disney works. If otakus want to self insert into some shitty haram world that's because they have shit taste themselves.

>>146683392

Then they're doing it wrong

>>146683003

Anyone can self insert into Shirou if they want or any other character really, but the story was not build with that in mind

for example, people who say this >>146683124 don't really understand what Shirou, as a character, is all about.

>>146683789

> And everyone considers them self-inserts.

That's only the case when these characters are basically blank pieces of paper with a few generic qualities here and there

> VNs have more choice than manga/LNs, allowing for greater insertion than otherwise.

You just contradicted yourself here

>>146682520
True, it's lame. Plebs want to "relate" to characters all the time and bitch when they can't see their ugly mugs reflected in everything.

But I don't see the ability to empathize as self-insertion. That is a faggot term used by faggots.

>>146687008
>no u wrong
>u just don't understand muh deep Shitrou therefore not self-insert
That's what all you fucking said. Shirou is a fucking shit, so are you.

>>146684445
That's the issue. Retards are defining every character by how they think the audience is using them or supposed to use them, but that's fucking retard because it leads to any sort of character being accused of this. They can't just say "this character is boring" or "this character is pathetic" or "this character is too OP for me" --no, a strong MC, a weak MC or a normal MC are all "self-inserts" because they're egocentric and self-project onto the characters.

>>146687866

What a shit reply

I was dumb to think I'd be able to have a serious discussion with someone of your level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XazsdoGWfMo

>>146656954
Shirou is at least better than Giorno, one of the blandest pieces of shit in anime/manga medium

>>146689827
>remorseless killer with a heart of gold
>bland
He was like a good Dio. Don't understand the shit he gets.

>>146687008
>That's only the case when these characters are basically blank pieces of paper with a few generic qualities here and there
Wanting to be a fucking superhero is a generic shonen quality, you fucktard.
So is "facing your contradictions" which is an internal struggle bullshit that every fucking shonen hero has done.

And no, there's no contradiction. You're the fucker that says the lack of choices in the VN prevents you from saying an MC is a self-insert.

My counter to that is Manga/LN Harem MCs are regarded as self-inserts even if they have personalities all their own while at the same time, you have no choices.

By using your own logic, it's MUCH easier to insert into eroge VN MCs than Harem manga self-insert MCs.

>>146656954
Jojo and Fate are totally different, Jojo is more about cool powers and fights, funny characters and bizzarre shit, Fate has an overall better plot, characters and a deeper worldbuilding.

>>146687318
>But I don't see the ability to empathize as self-insertion.
Re-read >>146680998
You can empathize in Mahoyo too, but only in Fate and Tsukihime does empathy go further and can become self-insertion. Projecting yourself as the main character, seeing the adventures through their eyes, their conquests are your conquests. Even Nasu knows he made self-insert protagonists for Fate and Tsukihime. That's why the Mahoyo contrast is necessary for understanding the interview itself.

>>146664782
He already mentioned Johnny though.

>>146683124
You want to end up as a living wand or something horrible as in all the bad ends?

>>146681449
Joseph > Johnny > Jolyne > Jotaro > Josefumi > Giorno > Josuke > Jonathan

>>146691356
You're right that F/SN and Tsukihime encourage self-insertion. That;s not really deniable, they're eroge too. Only I think self-insertion can be devoid of empathy, in that you treat the protagonist (or any character) as yourself, as a tool.

>>146690945

> Wanting to be a fucking superhero is a generic shonen quality, you fucktard.

The diference is the spin F/SN puts in that motivation

> So is "facing your contradictions" which is an internal struggle bullshit that every fucking shonen hero has done.

The difference is that the Shonen hero always achieves his goals in the end. F/SN is quite clear that the reality of the world denies Shirou of his wish and Will always do so

> And no, there's no contradiction. You're the fucker that says the lack of choices in the VN prevents you from saying an MC is a self-insert.


In F/SN whenever you make a choice that doesn't fits Shirou character, he does

Then there are the meme choices like the Protect Illya in HF, to evidence that the player is just tagging along for the ride rather than being Shirou

> And no, there's no contradiction. You're the fucker that says the lack of choices in the VN prevents you from saying an MC is a self-insert.


And I repeat not every Harem manga or LN has self insert MC Just like not ebery VN has a self insert MC

> By using your own logic, it's MUCH easier to insert into eroge VN MCs than Harem manga self-insert MCs.

You're not really getting my logic to Begin with. I'm saying that F/SN isn't a story that relies on self insertion, Shirou is his own character and quite the complex one at that

>>146691356

Read >>146687008

You can self insert in Shirou or Shiki If you want, it just so happens that it isn't a necessary factor for you to enjoy the story Tsukihime and Fate presente

Both Shirou and Shiki are complexo characters on their own right, they don't need (you) or anyone else self insertion to be taken as good characters

>>146693173
Every MC will have their own spin on their motivations. The base motivation of being a superhero is generic.

The good endings of FSN has Saber falling in love, living a nice time with Rin (or harem time with Saber) at the Clock Tower, living a harem life with Sakura and Rider/Rin. Fucking bullshit that a good reality is denied to your MC.

No, FSN is basically RE:Zero in eroge form. You are forced to die over and over again until you pick the correct choices. That in no way prevents self-insertion and still has more choices than either an LN or manga. In some respects, it adds to the sense of adventure, because some endings are pretty nice even if they are bad endings.

Nasu already said Fate and Tsukihime are self-insert eroge. And no, harem manga/LN are mainly self-insert fantasies.

FSN is a story that completely relies on self-insertion. Choices, first person view, the sex all concentrates on the female forms. Even Nasu says it is. It would just be Naruto Redux if you removed the heroines, for example. No one would actually have played it were it not for Saber and Rin and being able to sex them up.

>>146693339
>you're doing it wrong!
Nasu said they're self-inserts. Fucking stop it. Just because you don't doesn't mean they weren't designed as such and that so many people actually do insert.

>>146656954
How are the Jojos self-inserts? Aren't they all different from each other?

>>146656954
>Jojofags trying to shit on fateshitters
Don't even try it. Your fanbase is even worse.

>>146693589
>Nasu said they're self-inserts
They distinctly have personality, it's hard to self insert into a character who makes their own choices (mainly).
They're self inserts in the case that the VNs are written where seeing through the main characters eyes, things are written "I do this, she talks to me, I say this." and you read this in your head and get to feel like you're in the place of this character.

This is called first person perspective.

Now if Nasu said Rin is the most gorgeous girl in the entire world, would you believe him?
Why take his word as fact when the language barrier separates the meaning from it's intention, but decide you won't believe something else if it doesn't relate to what you want to believe?

tl;dr: you're a faggot.

>>146693589

Read this >>146682432

what Nasu said doesn't necessarily means "self insert", it just means that ypu will be playing the story through the mindset of one particular character, getting to know his thoughts, how his mind works and so on

Mahoyo is diferent because the story isn't focused in one single character, which is why Nasu made this distinction

Even Hakuno from Fate/Extra ended up being his own character rather than a self insert

Do you want a true self insert in TM? The player character in FGO is a true self insert, they are basically (you) and Nasu expressed the clear intent that they indeed are supposed to be (you)

>>146693815
>makes their own choices
BUT THEY DON'T MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES
You have so many choices in FSN, you get 45 fucking endings in the game.
What the game does is it punishes you for making choices, so that you LEARN the right choice.
Like self-insert otaku MC Natsuki Subaru does in RE:Zero.
Nasu already fucking said they're self-inserts as you can go beyond empathizing in Fate and Tsukihime as compared to Mahoyo.

Why retards keep trying to say Fate is not a self-insert game when even the fucking person who wrote said he designed it as such and calls the characters player projections is the pinnacle of folly and utter denial.

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>>146693510

>>146693919
Nice spin, faggot.
Having character traits does not prevent self-insertion at all. It never has and never will.
Fate allows you to rationalize people's thoughts because of the first person perspective.
Nasu already said he made the VN with the express purpose of people projecting over the heroes of the story and to see the story through the eyes of said heroes, and to be more biased in the viewpoints one reads the story in.

That is self-insertion. Nasu made FSN for self-insertion. Because the market that fucking bought eroge during Nasu's time are self-inserting otaku that wants to fuck women but can't get laid.

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>>146693955

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>>146694085

>>146680998
>you can project yourself as one of the heroes in Fate and Tsukihime
>you can't project yourself in Mahoyo
Nasu said so. Now fuck off, inserter denialfags.

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>>146694178
Except Shirou is a far more developed and complex character than Aoko, baitfag

>>146694178
>>146694085
Yeah you're right.
Too bad Saber is also a self-insert because I relate to her and self insert as her.

>>146657443
>Johnny

>>146694262
>a Naruto archetype character who has the same emofaggotry that Ichigo (Bleach) had is more developed and complex than Aoko
Yeah. Doesn't mean it's not generic shonen MC.
>>146694266
Inserting into Saber is pretty difficult to do, because Nasu never designed her to be a self-insert like he did with the Fate/Tsukihime MCs.

>>146693510
>FSN is basically RE:Zero in eroge form
wew lad.That's some fine bait right there. How many you catch today?

I haven't watched Fate or read the VN but Shirou seems like too much of an idiot to be a self insert. I can only base this off of that one screenshot and what a friend has told me, though.

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>>146694388
>>146694413

>>146694388
>generic shounen mc
>in a porn game
Are you fucking retarded ?

>>146694405
Technically, it's not wrong.
RE:Zero is about the MC with special unique/rare powers going through several bad ends to get to the ending.
FSN is about a self-insert MC (you) with special unique/rare powers going through several bad ends to get to the ending(s).
Only difference is the lack of sex and actual choices that can be taken by a reader in RE:Zero.

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>>146694493
>FSN is about a self-insert MC (you)

>>146693510

> Every MC will have their own spin on their motivations. The base motivation of being a superhero is generic.

If they have a unique spin on these common motivations then they aren't bland to begin with. I'm not arguing about these other guys though, just Shirou

> The good endings of FSN has Saber falling in love

And leaving him, which is a bittersweet ending. He then goes on to spend the rest of his life based on his wish to be a hero


>living a nice time with Rin (or harem time with Saber) at the Clock Tower

Did you even watched the UBW epilogue? Shirou is still going to try to be a hero there, difference is that Rin will tag along this time

>living a harem life with Sakura and Rider/Rin.

Now I doubt if you even read the VN. He is clearly with Sakura only.

And he manages to stay with her because he gives up on his ideal, which is quite tragic as well since his ideal meant a lot to him

On the other HF ending, he dies

>Fucking bullshit that a good reality is denied to your MC.

All endings are canon, he dies in more than 40 endings and lives in only 4 of them

>>146694455
You can be a generic shounen MC characteristically/personality-wise and still be having sex in a porn game.
Besides, Nasu already said FSN is shonen while Fate Extra CCC is his actual seinen work.

>>146693510

>>146694544(cont)

> No, FSN is basically RE:Zero in eroge form. You are forced to die over and over again until you pick the correct choices

Not every choice leads to death, so you are wrong. And one can easily avoid death by knowing how Shirou's character is like

> That in no way prevents self-insertion and still has more choices than either an LN or manga. In some respects, it adds to the sense of adventure, because some endings are pretty nice even if they are bad endings.

I'm not saying nobody self inserts into F/SN. I'm Just saying that it is a stpry that doesn't depends on self insertion because Shirou is his own character, he develops and he isn't bland

> Nasu already said Fate and Tsukihime are self-insert eroge.

That isn't the case as I already explained. And "eroge"? You do know that F/SN is more than that, right? If it was just an eroge it wouldn't have gained success it did with it's all ages version and adaptations. It wouldn't made TM the big company it is today

>And no, harem manga/LN are mainly self-insert fantasies.

Not all of them are like that, you're generalizing

> FSN is a story that completely relies on self-insertion.

Already evidenced why that isn't the case

> Choices, first person view, the sex all concentrates on the female forms. Even Nasu says it is. It would just be Naruto Redux if you removed the heroines, for example. No one would actually have played it were it not for Saber and Rin and being able to sex them up.

The all ages version exists and was relevant for a reason. Fate/ has more to it than just waifus

Event if Fate lacked waifus it would still be interesting because of it's rather unique universe and concepts

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>>146694085

>>146680998
Ypu realize that the difference Nasu is saying is between first and third person right? First person makes it easier to get into one character's mindset which is different if somewhat related from what 'selfinserting' is suppose to imply.

>>146694544
>If they have a unique spin on these common motivations then they aren't bland to begin with.
No, that's fucking spin. Almost every character motivation has been written already. Spins from those are merely minor deviations. It's still generic shit. (nice try trying to red herring with the bland shit that I never argued against in the first place)

With Rin as a fucktoy adjutant and then we get Last Ep, you little shit.

Yeah, with Rin (and Saber) as fucktoys.

HA has Rider tagging along in dreams. Rin delays looking for a husband because of (You), too.

All endings are canon, but the main endings are the ones people mostly fap their egotistic insert MC penises on.

>>146694565
Define generic shounen MC.

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>>146694758
jesus christ

>>146694493
>going through several bad ends to get to the ending(s).
You can get to the endings without going through any bad ends at all, though.

And it's not the same as Subaru's return to death whatever, those bad ends in Fate take place in different universes. It's literally game over no retakes for him in all of them.

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>>146693955

>BUT THEY DON'T MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES

Pic related

>You have so many choices in FSN, you get 45 fucking endings in the game.

And? Choices =/= self insertion. The game forces you to progress by making you proceed only through the choices Shirou would do

>What the game does is it punishes you for making choices, so that you LEARN the right choice.

And the right choice is the choice Shirou would do, not (you). After all I doubt the average anon would be crazy enough to throw himself in the front of a crazy behemoth like Berserker

>Like self-insert otaku MC Natsuki Subaru does in RE:Zero.

Nice bait

>Nasu already fucking said they're self-inserts as you can go beyond empathizing in Fate and Tsukihime as compared to Mahoyo.

Shirou is a better character than Aoko though, you don't need to self insert to enjoy F/SN's story even if it's easier to do that there because of the structure

>Why retards keep trying to say Fate is not a self-insert game when even the fucking person who wrote said he designed it as such and calls the characters player projections is the pinnacle of folly and utter denial.

Most people are only saying that you don't need to seld insert to enjoy F/SN. Shirou is a solid and complex character by himself, he isn't (you)
even if (you) want to be him for some reason

>>146694624
You dumbfuck. Of course not all endings are deaths, but to you, the player, it leads to the end of the game, which means you have to do it over again. Taking it literally is fucking stupid and complete cherrypicking.
And no, since all endings are canon, that means ALL those character choices are your MC's character.

Thanks for agreeing. Also, the story does, or it wouldn't have sold at all when it first got released in Japan.

The all ages version only was able to be sold years after the eroge had established a great fanbase, with brand new visuals. The eroge is what made TM.

They're "MAINLY" self-insert fantasies. FSN and Tsukhime are self-insert fantasies too. Nasu designed them as such.

You have no evidence. Nasu said FSN is self-insert shit unlike Mahoyo.

ALL AGES VERSION WAS RELEASED YEARS AFTER THE FANBASE WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED.

THERE IS NO FUCKTARD THERE THAT SAYS REALTA NUA ERASES ANY SEX SCENES THAT HAPPENED PRIOR. If Fate lacked waifus, no one would have played the first game, and no one would have seen the rise of TM.

The main driving force of TM are waifufags, and they use the game as insertion vehicles to fuck them. FGO is the ultimate pinnacle of insertion, which started from Saber is mai waifu bullshit.

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>>146695081

>>146695024
>I will post this one set of choices and pretend this means anything
The fucking game has flag triggers that accrue, so integral to the plot, that if you don't trigger flags enough, Saber kills you in one ending because you pissed her off.

No. The right choice is that one dimension's choice. All endings are canon, so there is no "right" choice. Every choice is right.

Fuck off. Nasu already said otherwise that what you're claiming.

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>>146695181

>>146694085

>Having character traits does not prevent self-insertion at all. It never has and never will

And? I'm just saying your average person doesn't needs to self insert in F/SN to enjoy the story

>Fate allows you to rationalize people's thoughts because of the first person perspective.

It mainly allows you to empathize with Shirou and understand how he is like. I understand Shirou but I don't want to be like him for example, the guy is sick in the head

>Nasu already said he made the VN with the express purpose of people projecting over the heroes of the story and to see the story through the eyes of said heroes, and to be more biased in the viewpoints one reads the story in.

You're taking a translation that might not be literal and stretching things a lot.

First person perspective =/= self insertion

Want self insertion in TM? Look at F/GO. Hardly anyone self inserts as Shirou

>That is self-insertion. Nasu made FSN for self-insertion. Because the market that fucking bought eroge during Nasu's time are self-inserting otaku that wants to fuck women but
can't get laid.

It is undeniable that F/SN, in it's phase as an eroge, had something like that. But it has grown. It's now something beyond what it used to be.

TM and Fate/ in general are trying to get away from 18+ works because Nasu never really wanted them anyway, that' why F/SN worked and was sucessful with it's Realta Nua version as well, because it doesn't realies on the sex scenes and the self insertion aspect

>>146694955
>And it's not the same as Subaru's return to death whatever, those bad ends in Fate take place in different universes. It's literally game over no retakes for him in all of them.
YOU DUMBASS.

YOU

YOU

YOU (and your insert) fucking retake the game over. It's YOU that repeats the game over and over again until the game finishes.

>>146695210
And it doesn't contradict what he said.

>>146695208
The average person who plays eroges are not normies. They are people who can't get laid so they play an eroge to "get laid" with their "waifu" Seibah or Rin or Raidah.

You can empathize in Mahoyo, but Nasu clearly says you can only really project in Fate and Tsukihime.

>hardly anyone self-inserts
/fgo/ threads filled with fanfics about their MC or versions of their MC do self-insert a lot, about their MC getting it on with many heroines.
And when I mean MC, i mean FSN MC.

No, it's still a waifufag franchise. Realta Nua cemented that by giving waifufags Last Episode, numbskull.
>Mai waifu Seibah and (my insert) can now be in Avalon together

>>146695318
No, it does. He's cherrypicking bullshit. Just like in RE:Zero, you have to keep on doing different shit over and over again to get to the ending.

Why do people let this argument continue? Even Nasu says Fate and Tsuki is for self-inserting. So what if your protag is a self-insert?
I feel like people that are vehemently against that are just showing that they are self-inserting, because having their protag called self-insert is like a direct insult to themselves.

>>146694758

> No, that's fucking spin. Almost every character motivation has been written already. Spins from those are merely minor deviations. It's still generic shit. (nice try trying to red herring with the bland shit that I never argued against in the first place)

Then every single motivation is generic shit for you? I see, I guess it's useless to discuss this with you then

>With Rin as a fucktoy adjutant

In Fate? Only in your headcanon maybe, there is nothing stating he got together with her after Fate

>and then we get Last Ep, you little shit.

Are you forgetting LAst Episode detail how brutal and unforgiving his life was? And how it took a literal miracle for him to meet Saber again? After years and years of work and dedication, he got his reward

>Yeah, with Rin (and Saber) as fucktoys.

Saber has not much time left due to her nature and yeah, he will act as a hero with Rin by his side but after that we don't know how things will turn out

I don't see how is that pandering, must the ending be tragic or something? If the ending i happy then it's pandering for self inserting faggots?

>HA has Rider tagging along in dreams.

HA is not F/SN. It's a fandisc/sequel with no real compromise besides fanservice and the elaboration of plot in a few sections

> Rin delays looking for a husband because of (You), too.

I'm not Shirou though and she isn't getting his dick as long as he is with Sakura

Nice to know you chose to talk about HF normal, you know the tragic ending in HF where Shirou dies?

>All endings are canon, but the main endings are the ones people mostly fap their egotistic insert MC penises on

HF normal is a main ending and it's sad as fuck, so? Fate's endign is also bittersweet as fuck, you need to complete the VN to get the epilogue

At this point you're just looking for excuses to push your pathetic agenda

>>146695421
But i don't do anything in Re:zero. So far it's you who is trying to cherrypick things.

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>>146695370
>>146695517

>>146664834
S-Cry-Ed was different enough in the crazy department and Hirai enough that it was definitely more its own thing than just a Jojo ripoff. The influences are there, though.

>>146695580
cool bait images, bait image poster.
can you post porn ?

>>146695210
With a guide YOU don't have to go through any bad ends at all to get to the ending. No retaking. Just straight through.

So what now?

>>146695518
The motivation in FSN is not uncommon in shonen manga. Wanting to save everyone or be a hero is generic.

It doesn't matter how brutal it is. You don't really end up seeing all of it. You just end up enjoying the promise of Seibah in the end. You never had to go through years of suffering. You just read a story.

Saber was going to be mana charged by (You), so that was a filthy harem ending.

HA is part of the FSN series. And it's still a harem story pleasing your self-insert fantasies.

I didn't talk about HF Normal. I talked about HF True. HF Normal is where Rin actually fucks men and even has descendants show up with her in the ending. HF True has Rin delay getting fuckbuddies because of (You).

HF Normal is not the main ending of HF. HF True is the main ending. What the fuck are you doing?

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>>146656954
>This entire thread

>>146695525
And that's the point! FSN is far easier to self-insert into because of the choice system than the LN that has an otaku self-insert MC as its lead.
>>146695712
It's still the same. The game was still designed for self-inserting. Just because you cheated, that doesn't mean the game wasn't designed for self-inserting.

Saber Nero is the Best Saber.

>>146695081

> You dumbfuck. Of course not all endings are deaths, but to you, the player, it leads to the end of the game, which means you have to do it over again. Taking it literally is fucking stupid and complete cherrypicking.
And no, since all endings are canon, that means ALL those character choices are your MC's character.

All endings are canon but the only way to progress is to make the choice that is most aligned with Shirou's current point of view, this is not saying that it' impossible for him to make other choices, it's just a tool the game is using to make you understand it's main character

>Thanks for agreeing. Also, the story does, or it wouldn't have sold at all when it first got released in Japan.

And if it was only self insert bullshit it wouldn't have become the behemoth it became. The inital Fate anime sold well because it had more to it than self insert potential. TM and teh Fate franchise are what they are today because the story they sold back then wasn't your normal eroge

>The all ages version only was able to be sold years after the eroge had established a great fanbase, with brand new visuals. The eroge is what made TM.

If the eroge is what made TM they wouldn't be able to get away from it as they are doing now

F/SN became famous because it was more than a simple eroge, it's sex scenes weren't important, the routes were legiitmately interesting and the characters were crafted in a way it fit the story perfectly

>They're "MAINLY" self-insert fantasies. FSN and Tsukhime are self-insert fantasies too. Nasu designed them as such.

In another interview Nasu remarked that his only self insert MCs are the ones in GO, he said that this time he truly wanted the MC to be (you) without any kind of backstory

>You have no evidence. Nasu said FSN is self-insert shit unlike Mahoyo.

https://oneofepisodes.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/fgo-tm-ace-042016/

>>146695081

>>146695892(cont)

> ALL AGES VERSION WAS RELEASED YEARS AFTER THE FANBASE WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED.

Are you retarded? All ages version was to go beyond the block of the +18 barrier, why would they be catering to the fanbase that got the original version?

>THERE IS NO FUCKTARD THERE THAT SAYS REALTA NUA ERASES ANY SEX SCENES THAT HAPPENED PRIOR. If Fate lacked waifus, no one would have played the first game, and no one would have seen the rise of TM.

Why the caps lock? Are you mad or something?

Anyway I'm not saying the waifus weren't part of the deal but if it was only that, Fate wouldn't reach the status it reached today

>The main driving force of TM are waifufags, and they use the game as insertion vehicles to fuck them. FGO is the ultimate pinnacle of insertion, which started from Saber is mai waifu bullshit.

In FGO, characters with defined love interests like Saber Arturia, Ruler Jeanne D'arc and so on aren't romatically interested in (you) to begin with so... yeah

And yeah you're right, but you're forgetting TM attracts powerlevel fags, lorefags and other cancers, it has more to it than just waifus which is why it got big in Japan

>>146695892
All endings are canon = all choices are canon personality. No amount of bullshit spin you make changes this.

>And if it was only self insert bullshit it wouldn't have become the behemoth it became. The inital Fate anime sold well because it had more to it than self insert potential. TM and teh Fate franchise are what they are today because the story they sold back then wasn't your normal eroge
The initial Fate anime was based on the Fate route, the most generic self-insert route of the VN. It also had the least complexity in explaining the character motivations, making it even more generic.

>If the eroge is what made TM they wouldn't be able to get away from it as they are doing now
The eroge is what started it all, but once they obtained a large enough fanbase, they moved completely to waifufagging. It's why Takeuchi can't stop making Saberfaces.

>In another interview Nasu remarked that his only self insert MCs are the ones in GO, he said that this time he truly wanted the MC to be (you) without any kind of backstory
Those are complete blank characters (but fandom is trying to give them character traits because self-insert faggots).

It also doesn't erase >>146680998

>>146695790
>moving the goalposts
Good job.

>>146696074
If the eroge did not exist, the fanbase would not have been built, they would not have been able to expand to non-eroge players. You are a complete retard.

>In FGO, characters with defined love interests like Saber Arturia, Ruler Jeanne D'arc and so on aren't romatically interested in (you) to begin with so... yeah
They're romantically interested in previous self-insert MCs (You), that's why they don't fall in love with (You). Because doing so makes them unfaithful sluts, in a roundabout way.

>>146695370

> The average person who plays eroges are not normies

And nowadays Fate can be considered a normie series, I wonder why. maybe because it had more to it than just sex?

>The average person who plays eroges are not normies

You can't get laid with Rider in F/SN and the sex scenes wasn't the payoff in F/SN in any shape or form, they were small and quite badly written, the biggest payoff was seeing the conclusion of the story

>You can empathize in Mahoyo, but Nasu clearly says you can only really project in Fate and Tsukihime.

Anyone can self insert into anything, I mean I can self insert myself in Soujurou and headcanon him fucking Alice and Aoko if I want

Difference is that there are stories who need self insert and those who don't. F/SN doesn't needs it

>/fgo/ threads filled with fanfics about their MC or versions of their MC do self-insert a lot, about their MC getting it on with many heroines.
And when I mean MC, i mean FSN MC.

You do know that the FGO MC isn't Shirou, right?What is even your point here?

>No, it's still a waifufag franchise. Realta Nua cemented that by giving waifufags Last Episode, numbskull.

It certainly is still centered around waifus but there is more than that, otherwise it wouldn't have become what it became when it became

Last episode has more to do with the end of Shirou's jouney as a character (like Tsukihime's eclipse is the beginning of Shiki's true journey) than with what you said

>>146696209
>I'll say it's moving the goalposts for no reason to make it look like I won an argument
It's useless discussing this with you faggots. You're all clearly insulted, because calling your self-insert a self-insert reveals you insert into the character, and you think that's disgusting, but you can't help yourselves, because you want to get laid with Saber or Rin or whoever.

>>146695517

Self insert isn't an insult to begin with, it just so happens that the guyI'm discussing with think F/SN is a franchise that relies directly on self insert when that isn't the case

Basically, you can self insert into Shirou, if you want but Shirou isn't (you) in any shape or form, a true example of (you) in TM would be the FGO MCs

Oh my god why is this thread

>>146664834
>Summoning familiars is inspired by Stands
Are jojofags retarded? this is older than jesus.

>>146696344
>FSN doesn't need it
>Nasu says he made FSN (and Tsuki) for players to self-insert to and that you can't do that with Mahoyo
And no, again, if FSN did not have any self-insert elements in it, no one would have read it in the first place.

That's why I said FSN MC, you dumbass. Even in /fgo/ there are self-inserters writing fanfics about their MC fucking heroines (I wonder how he'd do with her, he fucks her, they fuck him) kind of deal.

And FGO FeMC is a blankslate version of your self-insert MC. Like FGO MC is Male Rin.

Last Episode is waifufag paradise for self-inserters getting down with Saber.

Now if it actually wasn't? Saber would be fucking Kay or some other knight in Avalon when (You) get there.

>>146696414
A lot of people here think it is an insult. That's why they're rabidly trying to say "lol no you can't self-insert in FSN and Nasu is fukken wrong" a lot.

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>>146680221
>Nobody wants to be Shirou.

>Shirou's crazy.

Does not compute, you do realize chunnis go as far as self inserting into pic related?

You do realize that the more special snowflake you are chunnis self insert even more? You do realize the running joke about chunnis having sealed powers in their arms that brings them pain and crazy shit when they use it?

>>146696618
>You do realize the running joke about chunnis having sealed powers in their arms that brings them pain and crazy shit when they use it?
>only realize today that Heaven's Feel is like having a Darkness Dragon sealed in your arm route
Chuuni as shit

>>146695714

>The motivation in FSN is not uncommon in shonen manga. Wanting to save everyone or be a hero is generic.

The difference is that the spin they put on it is unique, they don't play it straight

>It doesn't matter how brutal it is. You don't really end up seeing all of it. You just end up enjoying the promise of Seibah in the end.

How does something that wa written doesn't matter? And why are you trying to say what I and other readers enjoyed or not? I certainly enjoyed seeing Shirou go through the consequences of his warped point of view yet still remain strong by the end of it

> You never had to go through years of suffering. You just read a story.

And why can't I or you empathize with the character that lived through these year in his universe? This isn't about me and you, it's about Shirou and Saber

>Saber was going to be mana charged by (You), so that was a filthy harem ending.

Actually, it wa Rin who needed the mana and she was planning to use Shirou for it, not me. I'm not autistic enough to self insert myself in a sword, thank you very much

>HA is part of the FSN series

No, Fate/HA is another game. It's pure fanservice with a bit of plot development

> And it's still a harem story pleasing your self-insert fantasies.

F/HA is pure harem, yeah but if you actually read you should know that you aren't even playing as Shirou to begin with, the whole thing is a big farce

>I didn't talk about HF Normal. I talked about HF True. HF Normal is where Rin actually fucks men and even has descendants show up with her in the ending. HF True has Rin delay getting fuckbuddies because of (You).

That does not mean Rin is going to get into Shirou' pants though so where did you get that HF true is a big harem? I'm honestly clueless

>HF Normal is not the main ending of HF. HF True is the main ending. What the fuck are you doing?

Sorry but are you retarded? HF normal is a main ending, it's as legit as Fate ending and both UBW endings.

Fate is shit and you should feel bad for enjoying it.

>>146696728
>Sorry but are you retarded? HF normal is a main ending

No, when you have something called TRUE ENDING everything else is meaningless.

TRUE ENDING
R
U
E

>>146696128

>All endings are canon = all choices are canon personality. No amount of bullshit spin you make changes this.

I'm not trying to make any bullshit to cahnge that though? I'm just saying that the more hirou like choice leads to the progresion which is a fact

>The initial Fate anime was based on the Fate route, the most generic self-insert route of the VN.

Fate is indeed the most generic but I frankly don't see how it's the most self insert like one, it seems you just throws words round and calls it a day

>It also had the least complexity in explaining the character motivations, making it even more generic.

Saber and Shirou's motivations were complex to make up for the lack of the exploration of other characters though and the set up there buildss perfectly for UBW and HF

>The eroge is what started it all, but once they obtained a large enough fanbase, they moved completely to waifufagging. It's why Takeuchi can't stop making Saberfaces.

Eroge and waifufagging aren't baically the same shit? If TM was dependent on eroge, it would till remain an eroge company but it isn't because Fate offers something more than just the 18+ content

There is nothing wrong with waifufagging though, pratically every anime does that shit

>Those are complete blank characters (but fandom is trying to give them character traits because self-insert faggots)

The traits the fandom are giving comes from themselves because they're literary (you)

The only personality we have for the FGO MC is the humorous pychopatic one that is played for laugh in Riyo's comics

>It also doesn't erase

t proves NAsu is an inconsistent asshole and you shouldn't be using his words as a definitive proof and if anything his GO interview is more recent than his Mahoyo interview so it cancels that one

>>146696515
>Are jojofags retarded?
Is water wet?

>>146696350
>this whole post
Nice projection. I said you were moving the goalposts because you were saying that Fate is basically RE:Zero, and when all your arguments were adressed, you just dismissed it and started all over again.

>>146696264

>If the eroge did not exist, the fanbase would not have been built, they would not have been able to expand to non-eroge players. You are a complete retard.

What I'm saying is that Fate wouldn't be able to get out of the eroge niche if the eroge was it's only selling factor. Don't you get it?

>They're romantically interested in previous self-insert MCs (You), that's why they don't fall in love with (You). Because doing so makes them unfaithful sluts, in a roundabout way

Wow, this is retarded. You're saying that (You)) wouldn't want a waifu like Saber betraying (You) with (You)

Did you stop to see how retarded this sounds?

Also Archer is basically Shirou and he is his own character in the game, Saber even blushes when she talks about him, is he a self insert as well?

>>146697089
How were my arguments addressed?
The journey of RE:Zero is about this dude with special fucking powers having to go through multiple shit to get to the ending.
The journey of FSN is about this dude (You) with special fucking powers having to go through multiple shit to get to the ending.
RE:Zero is otaku self-insert shit even without choices for the reader to pick, but FSN can't be otaku self-insert shit even with choices that the reader can pick?

Fuck off.

>>146696566

>Nasu says FGO MCs are true self inserts unlike the est of TM MCs

Right back at you, friend

>And no, again, if FSN did not have any self-insert elements in it, no one would have read it in the first place

I never said it doesn't has, I'm saying that it doesn't needs you to self insert to like the story

>hat's why I said FSN MC, you dumbass. Even in /fgo/ there are self-inserters writing fanfics about their MC fucking heroines (I wonder how he'd do with her, he fucks her, they fuck him) kind of deal.

The FGO MC isn't Shirou, what is your fucking point? When people use the master in GO fanfics and fanart it's always the canon (you) master, not Shirou, Rin or whatever

>And FGO FeMC is a blankslate version of your self-insert MC. Like FGO MC is Male Rin

It' just the design, they're basically (you) and have nothing to do with Shirou and Rin

>Last Episode is waifufag paradise for self-inserters getting down with Saber.

It wasn't build like that however, it's the end of Shirou's journey and his reward, last lines in the VN isn't a secret sex scene in Avalon but a reflection about the series as a whole

>Now if it actually wasn't? Saber would be fucking Kay or some other knight in Avalon when (You) get there.

Why would she be if Saber was already romantically interested in Shirou and never was romantically interested in her knights ( and hey weren't even there in the first place)?

>>146696931

"True ending" is just a name, the normal is as canon and as relevant as the true one because it's part of the main endings you can acquire and necessary for you to unlock the epilogue

>>146697131
It can be quantified as MC1 (You) is technically different from MC2 (You). Even if they are both (You), they are still different. So that if the heroine falls in love with both, they are technically sluts, even if they are both (You).

A version of your MC is still the MC, just a version of the MC. That's why you get a lot of fucktards conflating the achievements of both as the achievement of the same character, and also the main reason why so many people are choosing female MC in FGO, because it is simply the female version of their FSN MC.

A lot of self-inserters don't even know they self-insert, and that is why so many fucks (like (You)) deny it.

>>146697425
The bad endings are also canon. All choices are the same level of canon. There is no "right" choice since they're all canon.

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Are people forgetting the simple fact that Nasu HAD to make Saber a waifu and Shirou a man so that the game could sell?

File: __arima_miyako_len_sion_eltnam_atlasia_and_yumizuka_satsuki_melty_blood_and_tsukihime_drawn_by_tsurui__d42a68d18cdd33d2ebc3d6484733dfaf.jpg (298KB, 854x1200px) Image search: [Google]

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Interrupting with important question

Scans fucking when?!

>>146697460

Now you are just being retarded,if both MCs are (you) in the end then it shouldn't be a problem right?

I mean look at this shit

>. Even if they are both (You), they are still different

How does this even works? You are just grasping at straws at this point. In no way Shirou or Shiki are similar to the FGO MCs, even Hakuno from Extra has more character than them

> That's why you get a lot of fucktards conflating the achievements of both as the achievement of the same character, and also the main reason why so many people are choosing female MC in FGO

Kek, they're chosing the female because she is hot and they like to play as the female. She isn't the female version of Shirou, she isn't Shirou, he just has a design similar to the one he has

>A lot of self-inserters don't even know they self-insert, and that is why so many fucks (like (You)) deny it.
>I know more than you do, please listen to me when I say that you self insert because you do!

This is getting pathetic, senpai

>>146697365
The FGO female MC is a version of your MC. The character designers actually said as much.
There are FSN fanfics about (You) in FGO threads. There's been this annoying dumbfuck going on and on about his MC dicking Mordred or being her "mother" with Artoria.

Utterly insertfaggotry and disgusting.

Last Episode is (Your) reward for being such a devoted Seibahfag and inserter.

Because Last Episode was simply made for the insertfags. That's it. It shouldn't have even existed at all.

>>146696618
OK, Shiro I can understand, since by the end of the day, he's a good person and all, but how in the fuck can someone even empathize or relate to fucking Caim? Much less self insert as him.

>>146694747
Well I'm literally laughing right now that no one bothers to read this post since it's actually make sense

>>146697702
No, it is still a problem. Because your waifu is not pure anymore. It means she'll spread her legs for just about any main character.

Also, you're pathetic for saying Nasu is wrong. He already said FSN is insertshit.

>>146697524

I know, I'm just saying that the bad endings while canon, aren't main endings like the 5 we can get from the main story

>>146697605

If he didn't, he would be making an otome game, it would sell, just for a different audience, it also wouldn't reach the fame it reached because Prototype is a lot more simple than F/SN

>>146697751
That's because that's already answered at >>146691356

>>146697820
Which is the point people have been making. FSN would not have become the franchise it is today if it wasn't a self-insert eroge when it first came out. Actually, it might have been a fujoshi powerhouse instead. But there isn't really that much powerlevelfaggotry in fujoshi series.

I still don't understand what's wrong if your character is a self-insert or not. Twilight had a female insert character and it was popular for years.

>>146697716

>Just because tehy look like Shirou, they are Shirou

Oh, so now Nero is suddenly Arturia Saber?

FGO female MC just has the female design of Shirou but none of what makes Shirou the character that he is, however she is hot and nice to look at so people chose to play as her

>There are FSN fanfics about (You) in FGO threads.

No there aren't, you are bullshitting. I'm part of /fgog/ and there is no such shit

>There's been this annoying dumbfuck going on and on about his MC dicking Mordred or being her "mother" with Artoria.
>People can't ship things because they're self inserting if they do so
>Retards don't exist

You can stop anytime now

>Last Episode is (Your) reward for being such a devoted Seibahfag and inserter.

Okay, so you aren't going to change your mind, I get it. If that's the case though shouldn't the last scene be a sex scene reward or a kiss rather than a rational message regarding the end of the story?

>Because Last Episode was simply made for the insertfags. That's it. It shouldn't have even existed at all.

It's like the Eclipse in Tsukihime, it has a reason for existing evn if you say otherwise, senpai

>>146697299
>The journey of FSN is about this dude (You) with special fucking powers having to go through multiple shit to get to the ending.
Yes, that's the part when you've been proven to be wrong multiple times, mainly because your "argument" is based on cherrypicking, exaggeration, and ignoring the parts that aren't convenient for you.
Read:
>>146694955
>>146695318
>>146695525

>>146697792

Nasu already said FGO MCs are truly the (you) of TM compared to other MCs, his old interview is outdated and therefore your argument is outdated as well

>No, it is still a problem. Because your waifu is not pure anymore. It means she'll spread her legs for just about any main character.

But the main character is (you) so it shouldn't be a problem right? See your argument is making no sense, if Shirou truly was (you), there wouldn't be a problem for true self insertfags because they wouldn't think of Shirou as Shirou but as themselves and therefore there'd be no problem with making Arturia fall for them again but as we see, that's not the case

>>146697951

The thing is that F/SN wouldn't get out of the eroge niche if it only relied on self insert faggotry

In the same way I doubt Prototype would generate the same impact F/SN did because it's an inferior, more simple story with rough concepts

>>146698083
There are people who just think Kotomine Shirou as Shirou just because they look alike and even put him in the same category even if the person is a completely different person in fact.
It's like how Shikifags insert into Nanaya Shiki and Tohno Shiki at the same time.

It doesn't exactly work the same way with female characters, but there are idiots out there angry that a Saber copy is in love with Hakuno and is a massive slut.

>>146698208
Your MC has the a rare and unique power that allows them to fight in a very overpowered fantasy setting.
You keep on dying a lot and learn how to move forward by making "correct" choices.
You get to the ending once you've made all "correct" choices.
So yeah, FSN is the eroge version of RE:Zero. It's not completely 1:1, but the similarities in how it functions is there. You're a complete idiot for trying to take everything literally so that you can "win" the argument.

>>146698281

>There are people who just think Kotomine Shirou as Shirou just because they look alike

Kek no

The name Kotomine Shirou was a red herring when Apo launched but right now everybody and their mother know who he is and that he has nothing to do with F/SN Shirou

>It's like how Shikifags insert into Nanaya Shiki and Tohno Shiki at the same time.

No, Tohno and Nanaya are basically the same being. The Nanaya generated in Melty blood is an aberration

>It doesn't exactly work the same way with female characters, but there are idiots out there angry that a Saber copy is in love with Hakuno and is a massive slut.

Just admit that you are baiting at this point, no true Fate fan would ever confuse OG Saber with Nero

>>146698270
FSN still relies on self-insert faggotry. If Nasu suddenly created a VN where Artoria has sex with her entire KotR lineup in a fujoshi IF game, there's going to be a riot from the self-insert faggots who say that Artoria must remain pure for their self-insert MC only.

>>146698366

Stop trying to equate Re;Zero with F/SN, retard, Re:Zero is a Isekai, it's a different series with a different style that focuses on creating empathy through the suffering of the MC

F/SN doesn't works like that

>>146698465
>let's take everything literally when that's not the point being made
I hate talking with retards.

Holy shit, I can't believe you guys are still going on with this.

It's been going on for what, 2 days now? Get some fucking rest guys. Jeez.

>>146698385
>le no true scotsman fallacy

>>146698438

There will be people complaining because it would be OOC for Arturia conidering her backstory is already set in stone and because they ship Shirou x Arturia compared to whatever was advertised

Also do you know what "fujoshi" is? Are you fucking retarded? Arturia with the KoTR would be an otome game, not a fucking fujoshi one. Are you a disgusting newfag?

>>146697863
That just doesn't make sense, projecting yourself=/=auto self insert.

>>146698576
>her backstory is already set in stone
FGO LANCER ARTORIA PROVES THAT NO BACKSTORY IS SET IN STONE

>>146656954
Fun threads get constantly deleted, but astroturfing troll threads like this stay up.

>>146698517

What's your point then? Both have self insert MC? So what IS a self insert MC? Anyone can self insert into whatever they fucking want

The fact that Shirou has a backtory and a estabilished personality just shows that he is solid enough of a character for his story to not be centered around fucking self insert faggotry

>>146698588
What Nasu describes in the interview is self-insertion. And that you can't self-insert in Mahoyo, but you can in Fate and Tsukihime.

>people are taking this seriously
what

>>146698438
>fujoshi
>woman with men harem
What a retarded secondary you are, get out

>>146698564

>-m-muh fallacy

Back to plebbit with you

>>146698621

Lancer Arturia ( as she is in Camelot) is the result of a singularity caused by Solomon's bullshit

Arturia taking Caliburn, behaving like a machine and her future kingdom falling because of it is Fate, it is set in stone no matter the universe

>>146698650
Discussion of characters that do not devolve into political mudslinging is acceptable debate in /a/.
Posting nothing but pictures is /e/.

>>146698675
The point is that the MC of RE:Zero is considered an otaku self-insert even though he has an (1) established personality and (2) has to go through a story without the reader being able to choose what action he should take.
Then, you have the gall to say that you can't insert into FSN even though having an established personality does not prevent a character from being a self-insert for otaku (like Subaru) and that FSN had a multitude of choices to select from, which LNs and Manga do not even have.

>>146698684

I self insert in Mahoyo, do you have a problem with that?

Hell anyone can self insert in anything they want. Why are we having this discussion again?

>>146698807
Lancer Arturia is an Arturia that used Rhon more than Excalibur. Even the Merlin of that universe in Avalon kicked out Bedivere to fix shit up that he messed up in the first place.

There is no "set in stone" story in Nasuverse.

>>146698850
You're honest. But the point is, that FSN and Tsukihime were deliberately made by Nasu for self-insertion. That's it. It's just that some fucks in this thread are trying to say it isn't when the damn author says otherwise.

>>146698840

>The point is that the MC of RE:Zero is considered an otaku self-insert even though he has an (1) established personality and (2) has to go through a story without the reader being able to choose what action he should take.

I don't watch Re;Zero but if he stands as his own character then he isn't a pure self insert material, one can self insert as him but he is solid enough to not be bland like many other MCs and be his own character

>Then, you have the gall to say that you can't insert into FSN

I never said that, are you retarded?

I'm saying that Shirou is solid enough of a character, to the point that self insertion in F/N isn't necesary for liking the story

>even though having an established personality does not prevent a character from being a self-insert for otaku (like Subaru) and that FSN had a multitude of choices to select from, which LNs and Manga do not even have.

People will self insert into whatever they want, t just so happens that some MCs are crafted for it by having a generic or bland backstory and a generic or bland personality

>>146698684
You can self insert in anything, not just at first person perspective, fag, the questions are "their own definition of Self Insert" "Self inserting the one and only way to enjoy FSN" "projecting yourself=self insert" "everyone self-inserts in FSN" "Shirou is a generic self insert MC and nothing more" "FSN is waifufag story only" "FSN is famous because its an eroge" which is the baiters try to use as "criticism"

>>146698956

>Lancer Arturia is an Arturia that used Rhon more than Excalibur.

Her kingdom still ended the same way, she still took Caliburn out of the stone and she still behaved the same way


>There is no "set in stone" story in Nasuverse.
>Confirmed for not having read Garden of Avalon

>>146699029
Then why the living fuck are you arguing with me. All I'm saying is that Nasu designed his characters as self-inserts. Your being so defensive about this makes me question if you did not actually insert into FSN.

>>146699011

I self insert in Mahoyo but I didn't elf insert in F/SN and Tsukihime and I still liked them so what?

I guess this proves that you don't need to self insert to enjoy either Fate or Tsukihime

Self inserting is a pure personal choice

>>146699011
Then point out why then, that baiters like you, says that "self insert" is one and only purpose of Tsukihime and FSN.

>>146699105
Her kingdom didn't end the same way. She ended up turning into a fucking divine spirit that wants to wipe out humanity after creating a mighty fortress of protection.
And no, there is no set stone story in Nasuverse. It's the same bullshit that people had about Kotomine always dying in the 5th HGW. What they failed to understand is if the 4th HGW doesn't happen, then there is no 5th HGW for Kotomine to die in. Hence, infinite possibilities.
Fucking retards.

>>146699160
Something tells me you're lying at this point.
>>146699214
You're a fucktard. I never said that. I only said FSN and Tsukihime are designed to be self-inserted upon. And it makes sense. The initial market they sold the game to are Japanese eroge waifufag otaku who can't get laid.

>>146699130

>Why are you arguing

Because of this

>. All I'm saying is that Nasu designed his characters as self-inserts

making a story in first person view =/= self inserting

Shirou ( and Shiki) has enough character and personality to stand as their own person rather than just a typical bland and generic self insert bait

>Your being so defensive about this makes me question if you did not actually insert into FSN.

I'm just saying that you don't need to self insert to enjoy F/SN

People will self insert into whatever they want, there is no helping that, so it's useless to say shit like "some people self insert into this MC so he is shit and his whole story is therefore generic and pandering", because people will self insert into anything and everything.

>>146699130
You're comparing Re:Zero to Fate, retard, even though RZ is designed like a VN to begin with, but with the forced "go through bad ending to get good ending" differs from FSN

People not tired of discussing this age-old story.
Fat Faceless Men should be the next MC of the next Fate game. Fat/Stay Night will have that Fat Man impregnate Saber Artoria, Saber Nero, Saber Sakura, Majin Saber, Saber Lion, Saber of Red, Saber Artoria Alter, Saber Arthur, and Rin.

>>146699418
That already exists anon. Well, kind of.

>>146699294
Then projecting yourself=auto self-insert then, man you just came back to that argument.

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>>146699231

Lancer Arturia we can summon from the gacha =/= Goddess Rhonomyniad we fight in camelot

Pic related should explain it for you

> he ended up turning into a fucking divine spirit that wants to wipe out humanity after creating a mighty fortress of protection.

That happened because of the singularity

>And no, there is no set stone story in Nasuverse

King's Arthur downfall is set in stone, read GOA

>It's the same bullshit that people had about Kotomine always dying in the 5th HGWWhat they failed to understand is if the 4th HGW doesn't happen, then there is no 5th HGW for Kotomine to die in. Hence, infinite possibilities.

No, it just so happens that if there is a 5th Fuyuki war then Kotomine dies, it is as simple as that

>Fucking retards.

The only retard I see here is you, there are things that are set in the stone in the Nasuverse. Like Archer being a guardian forever, or Shirou never achieving his ideal, or Saber's kingdom being doomed to failure

>>146699294

>I can't make a proper answer to you so I'll just say that you are lying

Ebin

>>146699476
>King's Arthur downfall is set in stone, read GOA
Only if Arthur becomes King and anything after that is not set in stone, as evidenced by Saber killing (You) in some bad ends because you didn't talk to her good enough. If the 4th HGW had a different result, then no, the story isn't set in stone.
So yeah, not everything is set in stone.
Just like with the Kotomine 5th HGW thing.
Retard.

>>146699476
Yeah, but the 4th HGW doesn't happen all the time. (Read Fate Apocrypha). So Kotomine doesn't die always. There is no such thing as shit being set in stone in Nasuverse.

>>146699584
>Saber killing (You) in some bad ends because you didn't talk to her good enough
I don't understand how people can in good consciousness not think FSN is a fighting version of a galge. Dating galge has the very same flag trigger system.

Finish this sentence

I want to insert myself in Jo_______________

>>146699418
I thought some anon was drawing something like this, but with pigs and dogs?

What's good about Jojo? Is it an action manga of sorts?

>>146699915
Great style. That's all.

>>146699476
Not the same anon but
There's this problem though
>Multiple possibilities
the only worlds and history that current Fate series access to is like in Stein's Gate world line theory, where only the parallel worlds with like 1.00% differences are accessed. Like there are worlds where King Arthur didn't go to Avalon but to the throne of heroes, or Arthur is a guy. The only scope the current world in FGO can access are within the 1.00% world lines, both are worlds with minimal difference but the same major similarities.
Just like HF who was already said, has some rules different from the previous routes.
Well forgive me for my bad English, it's actually hard to explain.

>>146699476
I never got what Saber Lily really is.

>>146699784
Lyne

>>146699915
It used to be. I'd say now it's more a mystery/thriller if anything.

>>146699584

>Only if Arthur becomes King and anything after that is not set in stone,

If Arturia doesn't becomes king then she will never be King Athur or a servant in the first place, will never get to form the RoT and so on which makes the otome game idea thing ridiculous

>and anything after that is not set in stone

Camlann is set in stone

>as evidenced by Saber killing (You) in some bad ends because you didn't talk to her good enough. If the 4th HGW had a different result, then no, the story isn't set in stone.

I'm talking about her life as a person, not as a servant. If she becomes kingdom and takes the sword she will fail in the end,

>So yeah, not everything is set in stone.

A few things are

>Just like with the Kotomine 5th HGW thing.

If he is part of it, he will die, this is a fact

>Retard.

You

>

>>146699628

I'm talking about Camlann not her time as a servant. As long as she is king, Camlann is fated to happen

>So Kotomine doesn't die always

If Kotomine fights in Fuyuki's 5th HGW, he dies

This is a fact. Not Kotomine will die in every universe even if the 5th HGW in Fuyuki doesn't happens

>There is no such thing as shit being set in stone in Nasuverse
>Confirmed for not having read GOA

>>146699703
It's different because you don't need to trigger multiple flags to date girls and that you can't change routes in FSN.

>>146696515
>Are jojofags retarded?
Yes, but i dare to say fatefags are even more retarded.

>>146700095
>>146700192
>set in stone
>can be changed completely if shit happens differently prior to a certain event
Just like with Kotomine and the 5th HGW. Fucking moron.

>>146699817
Going to need source for this. For scientific purposes, of course.

>>146700086

>Saber Lily

Arturia training to be a king after taking caliburn out

>>146700048

>Multiple possibilities

This isn't the case if Arturia takes the sword out of the stone, her throne is fated to be destroyed and she is fated to become a machine like person, just like Archer is fated to remain a guardian forever or how Shirou will never make his ideal turn into reality

>>146700340

Are you clinically retarded?

IF Arturia takes teh sword out of the stone, Camlann happens, she loses her kingdom. This is Fate

Am I saying that she will always take teh sword out of the stone? No, in some bizarre world, she might have not taken it for some reason and thus King Arthur will never exist, however, if she takes Caliburn out, her destiny is sealed. This is a fact

Same thing with Kotomine, if he does participates in the 5th Fuyuki war as a veteran of the 4th war, he dies no matter what

>>146700661
>the argument was if shit is set in stone in nasuverse
>change one event before a certain event and things completely change
>set in stone no more
>b-but s-set in stone
Moron.

>>146657271
that's what your mom asked me last night

>>146700754
#bazinga

>>146700095
>>146700192
It is set to stone, but only within the multiverses that current Fate series have touched. It's like
>this group A multiverses, fall of king (Female)Arthur is set to stone.
>this group B multiverses, fall of king (Female)Arthur is not set to stone because she didn't lose the scabbard of Excalibur, Avalon.
And so on and so forth, current fate series is inside the group A multiverse so it's set to stone, but they don't know about group B multiverses so they only think it is set to stone.
Just like we have both male and female King Arthur in canon, or having 3 routes in FSN, 40 bad endings being canon and having the side stories considered to be still canon in Nasuverse, or even in other VN like Stein's Gate where Okabe can be with almost every girls but is still within the 1.00% worldline range.

>>146700300
Looking at this thread, yeah.

>>146694565
if nasu said elfen lied was the greatest anime would you agree with him if he was the author? he can't be wrong it's his own work!

>>146700744

Look, it' not difficult to understand.

I'm saying that if this happens then this another thing is set in stone. IF Artura takes Caliburn then her destiny is set, simple as that

You said that there is no destiny set in stone in Nasuverse and that whole fact just proves you wrong

>>146700661
>if she didn't lose Avalon scabbard, she wouldn't have defeated in Camlann
Then explain this, they are talking about the possibility that if she didn't lost Avalon she would have lived through Camlann, she may still die sooner or later but having her live through Camlann would drastically change the course of history.

>>146701026
Destiny is not set in stone precisely because the 4th HGW will not always happen, so Kotomine will not always die, and that Artoria will not always pull the fucking sword from the stone, so Camlann will not always happen.

>>146700832

No, you're not getting

If she takes caliburn out, shit will happen later on, fate will conspire against her to destroy her kingdom. In GoA there is literary a whole page of Merlin talking about this to Arturia and she still takes the sword

I presume the S;G multiverse works differenty compared to the Nasuverse so you shouldn't be using that to make your argument

>>146700991
That's a false analogy you made there.

>>146699817
>I thought some anon was drawing something like this, but with pigs and dogs?
Anybody?

>>146699703
Either you've never played a galge or you've never played F/SN. Likely both. In a typical galge you have a whole suite of heroines to choose from and can switch routes based on your relationship flags. F/SN has only 3 story routes that you are locked into playing in a set order and barring two exceptions you can't change your route once you're locked into it. Your choices within a route can at best determine which ending you get, but most of the time they are just a chance to go to a bad end or let you see some alternate interactions between characters and get additional info. In F/SN your choices are more about keeping yourself alive than which girl would you fug. The romance plotlines are railroaded, as long as you don't die they will happen.

>>146701076

She loses because fate conspires against her, something will always fuck her up because she is destined to get screwed in Avalon.

Read GoA, guys

>>146701103

>Destiny is not set in stone precisely because the 4th HGW will not always happen

I'm just saying that if it happens and Kotomine is part of it, he is dead in the 5th war

>and that Artoria will not always pull the fucking sword from the stone

If she does, it will happen. You can say that destiny is set in stone for her if she takes the sword, which is what GoA says

Another example; Archer's entire life as a guardian. He is never getting out of it

>>146701281(me)

not "in Avalon", I mean in Camlann

Damn, I need to sleep

>>146701145
Nope, it's only set in stone in known multiverses, your basically saying that once Shirou took up Kerry's ideals turning into Archer is set to stone or that he will regret it later.
It's only set in stone in a multiverses we know, but obviously it's also plausible that her fall would be drastically different if she didn't die in Camlann or that she could become an eternal king of britain due to having Avalon scabbard or if she just had a good talk with Mordred beforehand, Camlann wouldn't happen.
We only know about her fall because we know about garden of Avalon, which is not a representative backstory of every Nasuverse's king Arthur but only Fate series(Fate route to be precise) one(the female one I might add).

>>146701170
no it's not. you're basically appealing to authority. same deal.

>>146699130
I bet this is the same guy who got butthurt when I called out Shirou's character design being generic and tries to argue that it is not.

>>146701281
>She loses because fate conspires against her, something will always fuck her up because she is destined to get screwed in Avalon.
She wouldn't have been screwed up and died in Camlann if she had Avalon with her(possibility)
Checkmate
>read GoA guys
It's Fate(Fate route specifically), Female King Arthur back story, not every King Arthur backstory.

>>146701643
Appeal to authority is ONLY a fallacy if the appeal is being made to mask a fallacy. (The same thing with other fallacies).

Appealing to Nasu's authority on the greatest anime is completely different from appealing to Nasu's authority on a work he made.

Nasu said he made the series with player insertion in mind. That's wholly different from him claiming FSN is the greatest shit in the world. That was the dumbest thing that's on this thread, no matter your position on insertion or not.

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>>146701611

1)Archer's existence is what is set in stone not that Shirou will become Archer

2)Male Arthur also failed, as evidenced by Prototype Fragment

3)in GOA, as Arturia is taking out the sword, Merlin says that ifshe does so her destiny is set in stone. There is literary nothing that can change that, she will have to become a machine like king and this will cause her to not take Mordred as a heir and so on, in the end causing Camelot's downfall

4)Nasuverse =/= S;G multiverse

>>146701689
I'm a fatefag but who argues with his design? Every stories in nippon I've read had male protagonist that has a definitive set of rules to be followed and his design was generic on purpose anyways, it's not that unique before 2004 nor that unique today.

>>146702024
>ifshe does

>>146701853

> She wouldn't have been screwed up and died in Camlann if she had Avalon with her(possibility)

She will alway loses Avalon because it's her fate to lose in Camlann

>It's Fate(Fate route specifically), Female King Arthur back story, not every King Arthur backstory

No, GOA says specifically that it's her destiny if she takes the sword out, that counts for any universe

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>>146702062

Stop being pic related

>>146702138
I wasn't talking about the grammar mistake. I was highlighting the important part of the sentence "If she does/If Saber does".
Why are you a moron?

>>146702040
>I'm a fatefag but who argues with his design?
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/145232158/#145236301

>>146696618
Don't compare Drakengard to trash like Fate/stay night.

>>146702024
Consider the following:
>She(King Arthur) wouldn't have fall in Camlann if she got Avalon, meaning it's possible. I'm arguing about her fall in Camlann and not that she wouldn't fall at all.
>All and I mean all kings appeared in the series had all fell from their reign even though they are basically really strong and unbeatable; Gil, Ozy, Alexander, and many more, hell, gods themselves didnt last forever too. "You will fall is set in stone" could also be an allusion that no king reigns forever(unless it got absolute power ofc but that is already talking about power levels) the only difference is that HOW they will fall. And Camlann can be avoided by altering many things.
>Garden of Avalon is Fate series, specifically, Fate route Saber's backstory of course she will fall in Camlann because WE and the canon said that she did fell in Camlann, making GoA a story with set in stone end because we know how it ended beforehand (and saw the bits of it in fate route)

>>146702322

I think we are misunderstanding each other here

I'm fundamentally saying that her downfall will happen if she takes the sword, it's foretold

I'm not saying that worlds where she doesn't takes the sword don't exist

>>146702093
So your now saying it is set in stone she will lose Avalon and not losing it is not possible? The fuck? That's already a mindset you have and not related in the series in any ways. That's like saying "even if I didn't rape her, I would still end up in jail"

>>146699330
Most of the choices you are given falls into one of these 2:

1 - Slice of life. Extra (humorous) scene that generally doesn't alter the plot, aside from a few cases (ignoring Saber in Fate lead to Bad End, paying attention to Saber in UBW lead to Good End, not staying home with Sakura in one of the choice lead to Bad End, and not paying enough attention to Illya lock you out of True End)

2. Plot related choice that shows that the retarded decision that Shirou would've made is the correct one that doesn't get you killed.

The rest are non negotiable. You don't get a choice of leaving Illya. You don't get to back out of confronting Archer or giving up your ideal. Fate plot wise is pretty much a kinetic novel, the character motivations are fleshed out so that the choices that get you through are the choices that Shirou would've naturally made, aside from maybe 1-2 cases where him being a tsundere will get himself into a Bad End (not teaming up with Rin or ignoring Saber in Fate)

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Just a quick blog,

I consider reading FSN a couple years ago as hitting rock bottom. I read a 18 hours long (just the Fate route) visual novel that's not even that good to begin with, with wish fulfillment MC that's utterly retarded and got thrown at him this super hot, fiercely loyal, literal Servant who call the MC "mastah," stern but actually fluffy and kind on the inside, with obligatory tragic backstory and she had to slurp MC's semen to regain her mana. It was pandering to the max and I felt sick to my stomach. What the fuck am I doing with my life.

We don't have to use the buzzword "self-insert" or not, but it is obvious the amount of pandering and waifubaiting that exist in Fate series. If you don't particularly self insert as Shirou, and feel strongly about it then that's just your opinion. People have different experiences consuming the same medium. One have to admit that the way the narrative and plot was structured, TM from the very beginning intended the VN to be a waifubait where the target audience put themselves in Shirou's shoes as a vessel to enjoy the story. I didn't self insert as Shirou too, just because I don't generally self insert period but everyone had to notice the amount of otaku pandering in Fate series. The basic tropes are all there.

>>146702537
No your saying that she will always fall in Camlann, no matter what happened, it is set to stone even though it was already said that just having a single thing changed beforehand(like paying attention to Mordred or not losing Avalon at all, or simple things like she scolded Lancelot because of adultery).
What Merlin said anyways was like a faux fortune teller saying that you will die, or that you will jump later on. It's stating the obvious, being a King at all, that she will fall because in history no king, no matter how powerful, lucky or blessed he/she is by gods reigned forever.

>>146702821
Different anon here. That's pretty much it. The decision that seals Nasu King Arthur (male or female) fate is the decision to take Caliburn out of the stone. Minor events/details (using a lance instead of a sword, Bedivere did not return Excalibur and he/she stuck around as a ghost) may change, but the ending of Arthur died at the battle of Camlann and Camelot falling is locked.

>>146702821
So using the rape example, your decision to date this crazy ass yandere will end with you breaking up with her, and her making a rape claim no matter what happened in the relationship.

>>146702921
>That's just your opinion blah blah blah
You failed to get the real problem being argued here, the problem was can FSN stand on it's own without self-inserting, or that Shirou can only be a self insert protag and cannot stand as its own character.
>We don't have to use the buzzword "self-insert" or not, but it is obvious the amount of pandering and waifubaiting that exist in Fate series. If you don't particularly self insert as Shirou, and feel strongly about it then that's just your opinion.
And many points you said are all just subjective opinions.
>People have different experiences consuming the same medium. One have to admit that the way the narrative and plot was structured, TM from the very beginning intended the VN to be a waifubait where the target audience put themselves in Shirou's shoes as a vessel to enjoy the story.
Another subjective opinion stated as a fact, it's your own perspective and opinion, I respect that, but you putting your word in everyone's mouth diminished your integrity.
And Self inserting is a personal choice and not something to be bestowed to a character at all. Even Kirito, who had everyone self insert into, is not a mandatory self insert to be enjoyed as a character.
FSN is not a masterpiece, hell I don't consider anything as a masterpiece at all, Berserk? HxH? Naruto? Re:Zero? Jojo? DB? Nope, none of them AT ALL. But all of them had strengths and weakness and also fun. And I'm glad they are not perfect because that means they have a large room for improvement which could actually make me excited on what in store for me if they improved. Being a perfect story don't incite enjoyment to me at all. And that's just my opinion.

Why do we keep getting these bait threads with fate vs jojo? And why do you idiots keep falling for it?

Whatever, I like them both, have fun squabbling.

>>146660734
Why the fuck does his sleeve say "eri"

>>146702921
I agree about the pandering.

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>>146656954
>harem protag over 3 routes
>an epic about a bloodline told over a span of 200 years
how is any jojo a self insert?
in the fate games you were supposed to be shirou and choose a girl, in the jojo series you're supposed to watch the jojos live life and try not to get too screwed over by their shit destiny

theyre too different things

>>146704041
I think it says KERRY

>>146703644
That is determinism and a mindset actually tackled in VN already(Archer thinks that it is determined that Shirou will become like him just because he experienced the same thing). It's OK to me if you just see it like that but denying that it's possible for an event to be averted if you did a different choice before as a possibility really falls flat to the nature of the series as a Multiverse. Possibilities like "what if" the counterforce helped Arthur lived through Camlann or not letting Avalon be stolen, or Akasha willed Arturia to live forever just because it's fun, or Mordred was not born because Merlin did not turn her into a futa.
And the fact that one of the premises that Fate series have is "Operating outside the rules" and "Akasha is where all impossible and possible things lie" destroys your argument.

>>146703753
Huh? rape claim? what if I didn't broke up with her then? Or that she fell in love with other guy? Or that she killed me? Or that I actually loved her Hander attitude? Or that I killed her instead? Or that the police caught her trying to kill me in public? Or that she was imprisoned because she killed a woman because that woman touched me? What if she tried to fight back the police and ended up being killed? Or comatosed? Or losing her memories?
The POSSIBILITIES are endless anon, don't give me your deterministic ideals.

>>146704266
>You're supposed to be Shirou
Bait but here's a (You), you can also enjoy FSN without self-insert, self inserting in FSN is not set in stone.
>JoJo series supposed to be watched live
I can self insert to Joseph and say what you want to say while acting cool or Jotaro and project myself Orararaing DIO, or act fabulous like DIO while being a dick at the same time and many more. It's not set to stone that you can't self insert in JoJo.
You can self insert in anything, no matter if he got personality or a blank slate, has backstory or none or intended or not intended by the writer or that if she is a girl or a boy, or that if it's not a human as long as you wanted to self insert.

>>146704038
I'm having fun squabbling ;D
he uses emoticons he's a fag noooo

>>146656954
One wouldn't survive without the blatant otaku pandering and it isn't JoJo.

>>146702519

Fact is, Merlin is not referencing an event exclusive only to Fate when he says that Saber's future is doomed if she pulls that sword out, it's something common to all her known versions, in all possible universes

All of them fell in Camlann in one way or another

>>146704349

This won't happen, determinism works in Fate regarding a few things

You can't just headcanon your way out of an estabilished fact and what happens to Camelot is an estabilished and predetermined fact

>>146704515

The Camlann deal is destiny, it's already decided

Deal with it

>>146702821

One of the main core messages in Saber's route is accepting your fate and rolling with it instead of losing your time wondering how it could have been

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what? rohan is the only self-insert in jojo

i don't think you know what a self-insert is

>>146706078
i have never heard self-insert used for anything but a character meant to represent the author, does it work differently on /a/?

>>146702921

>>146702921

There is pandering, no doubt

But there is pandering in most series nowadays too, what matters regarding F/SN in general is that it has a message and a story to tell, it has a well crafted plot structure that reveals itself after the three routes of the VN

You didn't got even close to finishing Fate, I'd wager

>>146703147

You do know Merlin has top Clairvoyance right? He can predict the future, he knows what pulling the sword entials every time and says the same thing every single time

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>>146689235
>serious discussion on a bait thread
*tips fedora*

>>146705714
Merlin only references the fate of her fall and not how she will fall, and fall of a reign by rebellion is a common conclusion that is easily attributed to many legendary king figures in the world. Oh and Merlin is a girl then? because FSN Merlin is a guy while FP Merlin is a girl.
>>146705827
>>146705945
No, determinism does not work in FSN, and what I'm saying are "what if" scenario not Headcanon(where did that come from?) that is possible in-universe. Fall of Camlann is an established fact because it already happened not because it was destined to happen.
And we are dealing with multiverses here and we never saw every multiverses but you are already dismissing the fact that there are many possibilities that can lead to a specific outcomes.
>deal with it! I can't deny what you said but it's destiny cuz I said so! Noooooo Deal with it
Huh? Now I know how retarded you are
>One of the main core messages in Saber's route is accepting your fate and rolling with it instead of losing your time wondering how it could have been
The main core message of fate route is to carry the weight of the actions you've done, not deny the efforts you and your "friends" and those who have died believing in her and that she have done her best as a king, not just accepting what happened because destiny. None said that is "it's fate deal with it", it's much more than that.
And fate=/=history, fate=/=past, fate=/=what happened.
Fact = Saber's reign will end
Not destined = how it will end
And those two itself are also just two under the infinite number of possible outcomes.

>>146706231
He can see many possible outcomes, and it's also based on actions she have done.
We also have a glimpse of how future can be changed in Nasuverse, see kara no kyoukai movie 8? Or is it 7? Where we have 2 individuals who can see the future and one of them can alter it to what he want by doing multiple actions where even the most mundane unrelated things is needed to be done.

Yo this thread is really autistic even by /a/'s general standards

Friendly reminder that wish fulfillment=/=self insertion

>>146707850
Agree to that, Sir!

>>146707555
Your in motherfukin /a/utist, what the fuck do you expect?

>>146707850
Self-insertion is the easiest way to achieve wish fulfillment in media.

>>146707117

> Merlin only references the fate of her fall

Yes and as per King Arthur's legend, she falls in Camlann

It's the same for Proto Arthur.

>>146707117

> No, determinism does not work in FSN

Say that to Archer. His fate is sealed and it won't ever change

> and what I'm saying are "what if" scenario not Headcanon(where did that come from?) that is possible in-universe

If it's not a confirmed universe, it's a headcanon

King Arthur is predestined to lose her kingdom and it will happen in Camlann

> Fall of Camlann is an established fact because it already happened not because it was destined to happen.

Say that to GoA

> And we are dealing with multiverses here and we never saw every multiverses but you are already dismissing the fact that there are many possibilities that can lead to a specific outcomes.


The Nasuverse doesn't works in the way you think it works, things there are a lot more determined than you think they are

Arthur's fall is an example, Fate is actively working against her and her machine like behavior is what ends up causing the events of Camlann

> Huh? Now I know how retarded you are

Just because I said deal with it? Okay then find me an universe in which King Arthur survived the battle of Camlann and continued to rule her kingdom

>B-but muh what if

No headcanons allowed

> The main core message of fate route is to carry the weight of the actions you've done, not deny the efforts you and your "friends" and those who have died believing in her and that she have done her best as a king, not just accepting what happened because destiny.

Sure, it's all of this plus accepting your fate. It's what both Saber and Shirou do, it's why the route is called "Fate"