Sakugafags BTFO

Funny, his movies were only worth watching because they had great animation.

>>146201461
Interesting he says that because Paprika was a shit movie that was just an experiment of editing/transitioning and cuts

Sakugafags tend to appreciate it in a vacuum though. They don't appreciate or judge a work by its animation, they appreciate the animation by itself.

>>146201461
literally KyoAni

>>146201528
top bait, senpai.

>>146201610
It's a more extreme form of what he describes.

most people on /a/ are completely unequipped to critique anything beyond simple visuals though

its not like this is a board for the literate

>>146201461
why don't you just write a book then you cancer ridden fuck

oh wait it's because you're fucking dead

>>146201811
hey why don't you shut up and stop talking to the dead

>>146201846
But Anon, I'm dead too

>>146201758
Sakugafags are more like Kon than anyone else

Kon want to use the medium of animation to tell his stories, his stories are centered around what would make interesting use of animation

Sakugafags enjoy animation as moving drawings, they ultimately don't care about the story, that's the sole difference, but what Kon is saying is that animation precedes the story, and that's what sakugafags enjoy... Why though, my guess is because they'd like to do it themselves and can't help but admire those who can.

>>146201461
You have a problem with reading comprehension.

Sasuga /a/ for being this dumb.

>>146203585
What a terrible, contrived and wrong post.
>Kon want to use the medium of animation to tell his stories
No, he wants to make film.
>his stories are centered around what would make interesting use of animation
Where does he say the script is "centered around" animation?
>they ultimately don't care about the story, that's the sole difference
So you think the only elements of an animated film are animation and "story". You clearly don't understand what Kon said at all. You are just like what he is describing.
>what Kon is saying is that animation precedes the story
No he's not.
>and that's what sakugafags enjoy
what? How are your sentences even connected?
>Why though, my guess is because they'd like to do it themselves and can't help but admire those who can.
As far as the English community goes, because they share the common properties of being autistic NEETs in their 20s who love to spout maymays and watch anime, from what I gathered.

>>146203667
Reading comprehension of what? The subtitles are not perfectly accurate, for your information.

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>All this time he placed animation second

Dead men blow no one except necrophiliacs

>>146203891
Perfect example of stupidity concentrated into one post.

>>146201461
Can't read french senpai.

Your greentext probably just bullshit anyway lol.

>>146204664
Seems you can't respond to it. It can't be helped, after all I actually watched the roundtable and you didn't. You should learn to accept when you're wrong, though.

>>146204940
Well, anyone who can read French or understand Japanese should be able to confirm. I linked the page that contains the video after all. Do you think I'd actually post the subtitles or the video if I were rusing?

>>146204940
I can confirm that at least the last quote in the OP corresponds with that of the screenshot provided.

>>146201610
This. Sakugafags don't base their taste solely on animation.
More like KyoAni BTFO.

>>146201461
He is right but this isn't just for Japanese animation.

Nearly all art is shit for the lowest common denominator. Most books that make money are shit, for the last few years and so far this one Adult Coloring Books are the highest selling.

This is low hanging fruit, and even though Satoshi Kon is one of the better ones, his shit is completely sub par when taken critically or is a well executed yet boring concept.

>>146206014
There's nothing wrong with adult coloring books.

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>>146206104
Listen to me.

Fuck off.

>>146206014
>>146206104
Are you talking about stuff like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Coloring-Book-Relieving-Patterns/dp/1941325122

Only read the greentext but isn't he talking about visuals as artsyle and such? Animation is motion, it's acting, it's bringing something to life. All he's saying is don't judge a book by its cover.

I think you're misreading OP.

>>146206382
>i haven't watched the video but he's saying [some bullshit]
very convincing, anon.

Not related to what he says but animation to anime is like gameplay to games. You can argue your game is "art" and thus shouldn't be judged mostly by its gameplay but the audience may simply not buy into that and it's 100% their right.

As a customer there is absolutely zero reason to be ashamed of greatly appreciating the animation whether it's the quality of the designs or the motion or the coloring or whatever. If you think the only way to appreciate an anime is to somehow judge it as a whole or put storytelling above everything else then guess what? Nobody cares. The market has shown again and again that great animation is highly related to great sales, you'd need an atrocious story to decouple those.

>>146207670
>>>/v/

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>>146204664
>I cannot refute anything so I just call it stupid

>>146207670
>The market has shown again and again that great animation is highly related to great sales
What?

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>>146205080
If your greentext are close to the context of the video, then your "Sakugafags BTFO" is completely irrelevant tho. Kon talked about judging an animation film, Sakugafags appreciate the animators and their animation cuts, the skill that they put forth to produce the movement of the drawings. It is still completely valid to appreciate the technical aspect of a scene in a movie in isolation, overseeing the bigger context of the film. A parallel example could be like admiring a painting because of the mastery of the artist with his brushwork.

Who cares?
Both Kon and the sakuga community are dead anyway.

>>146208394
sakugafags show no interest in well directed or well written works if they don't have le sabuga, hence they are exactly the kind of people that kon doesn't like.

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>>146208536
Are sakugafags some sort of a hivemind? I know this is the internet but that's just retarded assumption.

>>146208536
God now i get the feeling that you've been interacting with the wrong group of people.

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>>146208685

>>146208536
Nice bait

reminder artists are bad at talking and making a point, that's why they're good artists

>>146209650
You reminder is total shit though.

>>146209650
Directors are good communicators because they work with everyone on staff and need to translate their ideas into words so that scriptwriters, musicians, voice actors, animators, bg artists can move forward.
Great directors are cultured intellectuals who have read/seen it all and can articulate thoughts and complex concepts into existence.
You might have never seen a making of or bought a movie release.

>>146210446
ANime directors are autistic.

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>>146212928
as expected from the master.

Reminder that art is not animation, you can have shit art but great animation.

>>146201461

Jokes on him cause anime fans do this all the time and are damn fucking proud of it.

>>146201807

The anime community is full of complete fucking retards who find talking about their dicks and where they'd like to put them to discussing things like story, character arts or praising the efforts of individual key animators.

>>146204028

Character Design>>>>>>>>Music>>>Voice Cast>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Animation Quality>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Scripting(unless it's Urobuchi in which case it's more like >>>> after Animation Quality) no matter what any modern anime fan tries to claim that's the order and magnitude of importance to them in terms of key elements in making an anime.

>>146212928

No you're actually dumb is what's going on

>>146201461
says the guy with large animation budgets. get fucked gook

>>146201461
>Wanting to make animation, to me, is wanting to make a film using the medium of animation.
>To me, Animation is animation

Profound.

>>146213776
>Urobuchi
>Anime

>>146208536
Don't know if this bait or not but how can an Animation be well directed with bad visuals when it's so dependant on the visuals to communicate to an audience.

A badly directed live action movie can only get so bad visually even with a first time director. Animation can be literally intelligible if the visuals are bad enough.

>>146214272
I love k-on

-Satoshi Kon

>>146214493
You can have a good visual with very little animation there's a whole school of directing anime that works on that philosophy starting with dezaki. Choosing layouts, colours, methods of framing etc to communicate visually and remain interesting without lots of animation. There are tons of greats anime like this that have no relevance to sakugafags. That said in reality there are very few sakugafags with no interest in anything besides the animation.

I'm too stupid to join this discussion, but I like anime.

>>146215536
he said bad visuals, not no animation

>>146215838
Not joining this "discussion" makes you the opposite of stupid.

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>>146207670
>The market has shown again and again that great animation is highly related to great sales,

>>146207670
Damn /v/, you always step your game in shitposting and spouting opinions or what you perceive as facts.

>>146208536
>le sabuga
Fuck off

>>146201461
All he is saying is anime is not just about flashy lights and pictures like ufotable things and about how you use the animation to tell a story.

For example he uses animation to do surreal things with his story telling that would not work well with actors, but works well with animation.

The thing is though if I'm specifically wanted to judge animation I just talk about the animation and the film itself is irrelevant. They are two different discussions. I don't just watch things based off how well animated they are, but I still love to see and appreciate well animated scenes.

So basically Ufotable is shit. RIP Satoshi Kon.

>>146208536
This sounds like some argument you would see on /v/. What is happening to this place?

>>146208716
He is a retard just speaking in absolutes.

>>146214272
That's actually the exact opposite of what he said. Learn to read.

>>146207670
The one thing that's true here is that animation is to animation what gameplay is to games, they are the single most defining aspect of the medium.

>>146217180
kon was a mangaka though, he doesn't really get the appeal of animation. he wanted to be a l-a filmmaker from the get go and had to 'settle' for anime.

so yeah he uses all these medium conscious tricks to make it seem like he has a point but the only reason his films work is because they have ridiculously talented animators.

>>146215838
I like anime too, that's why I love these type of threads even though I don't really have much to contribute: they're great for finding shows to watch. Picked up a lot of interesting titles to add to my backlog whenever those 'visual direction' or retro anime threads happen.

>>146201461
This is why Japanese Animation sucks compared to Western

What's the point of making things that "make sense" when with animation you can do all sorts of amazing shit you can't do with Live Action?

This is a waste of the potential of the medium and it's why the Golden Age of Animation will forever be untouchable

kyoani fags BTFO

>>146207670
>Not related to what he says but animation to anime is like gameplay to games
No it's not
Gameplay must be good in games

Anime on the other hand doesn't need good animation since most of them are just Manga's with a bit of animation here and there and some voice acting and people eat that shit up

>>146222310
Does the golden age refer to Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry? Or is it something earlier than that?

>>146201461
mobfaggots literally BTFO

>>146222521
It refers to anything from the 20s to late 50s or so
That includes stuff like Fleischer Bros, Warner Bros, Disney, MGM, UPA etc.

>>146222809
Now that i think about it, the same problem that Japanese animators is a similar problem to American comic book industry. In which they constantly try to do things that make sense, instead of just having fun with the medium.

>>146222310
Kon is talking about the content rather than the technical quality of the animation though. Japanese animation is creative in its own way. Guys like Yoshinori Kanada and Shinya Ohira are examples of those who push the medium of 2D animation in ways western animators did not.

>>146222529
> mob
> sakuga

pick one punch man

This meme needs to end. What's interesting about Mob is designs, not animation.

>>146222521
Looney Tunes is amazing. Tom and Jerry (like everything by Hanna Barbara) is soulless, mass-produced garbage.

>>146224976
The characters in Mob all look almost identical because of ONE. It stands out for characterization and, in the anime, pretty good music.

>>146225504
Strange. I feel the opposite.

>>146225504
>Tom and Jerry
1940-1967 is pretty good honestly. It's the second HB era that the facepalm starts for me.

>>146201461
He's right somehow. There is no point of Sakuga in Precure because it's anime for little girls

He's right, but terrible 2D animation look way worse than terrible camera work and acting in movie.

They have to put effort into animation quality or at least have good art and details or else it's just embarrassing to watch.

>>146224976
Nah, the directing is Mob's strongest point. The animation, while not as abundant as One Punch Man's, is still pretty great though.

>>146228923
Embarrassment comes from direction though, not art. There are plenty of examples of hideous shows that are still well-regarded.

>>146217110
>ufotable hater trying hard

>>146229057
The only thing he was wrong about was implying ufotable has high-quality animation to begin with.

>>146229252
They're no Bones or Kyoani, but they can do good stuff.

>>146229252
Their animators and novice. When people shitting about ufotable, they compare them to veteran animotors who spent all days animating shit since 80th. Look at Rho Aias. Ufotable can paid money for freelance veteran animators too

Well, being a sakugafag isn't simply about "loving animation" but more like taking the production process into account when analysing and judging the work as a whole. Because, honestly, everybody loves great animation yet that doesn't mean everybody's a sakugafag. Animation playes a undeniable part in presenting the work of animation since it sets to present it through such means. Being sakugafag is more about analysing the production/creation process for each show, episode, creativity deparment, single person's input. It's for people who like to dwelve into this kind of shit and are interested in it. But most people aren't. I don't really know a "sakugafag" who would disregard the story, characters and/or thematical sense of a work simply because "some pictures moved nicely". The point is more like to analyse the direction and animation in regards to how it manages to present the story, characters and themes it tries to convey.

It's fascinating to analyse shows as a whole, taking closer look at their parts and then assembling them into one whole. Show with "bad" animation might be fascinating to watch and analyse even precicely because it has that animation. Disastrous shows with falling apart production cycles are fascinating to follow, watch, gather info and analyse, too!

>>146229405
Nozomu Abe is a veteran, but he's a late 90s animator. Ufo has veterans of their own like Mitsuru Obunai who is around since the 90s and Masayuki Kunihiro who is also another 2000s animator.

I agree
Good animation should be a given, but most anime look so fucking bad that it turned into the center of attention

>>146204940
I'm french and OP is rusecrusing you.
The bullshit under the pics just means : anime was a mistake.

>>146201461
Anime is animated.

Animation is a visual medium.

The visuals are what define the medium. Anime would not be anime without animation or visuals.

The unique function of animation is using a visual-medium to tell a story without constrictions of realism. Books cannot do this. Music cannot do this. Live-action cannot do this (CG is not live-action, and is animation). The only medium that can provide visual-story telling like animation is animation.

You cannot detach the story from the visuals. They are the same thing. If you are to judge the work itself, you must judge them together. If you separate the two, you are no longer judging the work but only a portion of it, like judging just the seasoning on a steak.

Arguing that the visuals are not the single most important element of animation is asinine. It's an utterly antithetical platitude towards the very essence of the medium.

I don't give a shit who Satoshi Kon is. If he actually said this, he was at best a jaded old-man trying to invent excuses for why his love betrayed him. At worst, he was a tryhard pseudo-intellectual trying to sound cool and unique with his "wisdom".