Monster is a pretty good show overall. It does have some pacing

ITT

The problem is the ending is the same as every Urasawa written work, the ending is fucking terrible. In spite of pacing issues and a bad ending which sucks the life out of the villain, people who think Johan isn't shallow by the end are delusional, is a fun albeit long ride. If read it though, I could never watch this stretched out as long as the anime.

It's still overrated shit, tho

>>146141491
What was so terrible about the ending? I honestly cannot remember much, save the final confrontation, which I thought was pretty good. It seemed apt enough, and the resolution stayed true to Tenma's character.

I really don't remember Johan to be that interesting of a villain, too, but the story of how he came to be and the stories off all the characters involved prop him, and the overall story, enough, in my opinion.

Anyways, I don't agree with the overrated comment. For one, it's basically never brought up anymore, and for another, it's a crime/conspiracy thriller, with wider scope and appeal, that's actually executed competently. That's enough to make it stand out from the crud.

Its a masterpiece, all fuckwanks on this cancerous board saying otherwise are delusional basement-dwellers hailing TTGL to the skies as they crave constant action and affection just as when they were little playing Sonic on their SEGA.

Monster is slow, and its better off foor it in every sense, it dares to build suspense, it dares to show the naked openness of being on the hunt and being hunted.

It has a few shortcomings, i agree. Nina is not as good as i would have liked, at some points Tenma DOES feel a tad too Gary Stue, but in the end, its a masterpiece.

>>146142224
>What was so terrible about the ending? I honestly cannot remember much, save the final confrontation, which I thought was pretty good. It seemed apt enough, and the resolution stayed true to Tenma's character.
A lot of it gets frustrating, and Tenma feels like he truly learned nothing from the entire ordeal. Also doesn't help that a lot of things are left without closure or resolve, making us hold onto the deaths of many characters that the final part renders more or less pointless.

>I really don't remember Johan to be that interesting of a villain, too, but the story of how he came to be and the stories off all the characters involved prop him, and the overall story, enough, in my opinion.
Johan is the main reason the ending is terrible and it retroactively makes things less interesting when you find out how shitty his motivations are. He seemed like such an intimidating villain and turned out to be flat as cardboard.

>Anyways, I don't agree with the overrated comment. For one, it's basically never brought up anymore, and for another, it's a crime/conspiracy thriller, with wider scope and appeal, that's actually executed competently. That's enough to make it stand out from the crud.

You haven't been around much then, the overrated shit meme started because for years since it aired Monster was literally treated as some sort of deep intellectual thinking man's anime when it was just alright. For a long time the plebs treated it like Monster was a pinnacle of anime and you could tell when someone had shit taste because their 3x3 always had Monster in it.

It's extremely popular, that's why they have been trying to make a live action Netflix series forever.

>>146140924
Overrated shit

>>146138962
I just really really like how Germany is depicted in the manga.
Was kinda annoyed that every Turk was shown as a dindu, though.

>>146142512
>A lot of it gets frustrating, and Tenma feels like he truly learned nothing from the entire ordeal. Also doesn't help that a lot of things are left without closure or resolve, making us hold onto the deaths of many characters that the final part renders more or less pointless.

What's he supposed to learn? That crazy motherfuckers ought to be iced? Come on. In the end he reaffirms his belief that you've got to help dudes, no matter their station or who they are, the same belief that led to all this trouble in the beginning. Also, I don't frankly remember which characters die, except for the DID guy, but as far as I remember all the major characters got some kind of closure. Even their mother got some. Correct me if I'm wrong.

>Johan is the main reason the ending is terrible and it retroactively makes things less interesting when you find out how shitty his motivations are. He seemed like such an intimidating villain and turned out to be flat as cardboard.

Shit, maybe I need to re-read it, I don't remember his deal much at all. Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, I think the story surrounding him is interesting enough, even if he's whack himself, which may or may not be the case.

>You haven't been around much then, the overrated shit meme started because for years since it aired Monster was literally treated as some sort of deep intellectual thinking man's anime when it was just alright. For a long time the plebs treated it like Monster was a pinnacle of anime and you could tell when someone had shit taste because their 3x3 always had Monster in it.

Nah, you're right, I don't remember the origination of this joke at all, and the show aired before my time. Whatever circlejerk surrounded it then is now dead, though, so hopefully we can discuss its merits without that shit attached.

>>146143161
wording this tbqh
realism is not needed in a fictional work ^

>>146143187
>What's he supposed to learn? That crazy motherfuckers ought to be iced?
When it's a sociopath who went on a murder spree and was killing people while playing pretend Hitler, yeah there is a point that your hypocratic oath becomes the hypocritic oath. Tenma feels like his suffering as well as everyone else's was pretty much pointless because he won't kill the sociopath that wants to ignite world war 3 just because "I want to help people!"
>In the end he reaffirms his belief that you've got to help dudes, no matter their station or who they are, the same belief that led to all this trouble in the beginning.
That's the problem, it literally does Tenma has not grown or learned from his experiences and he's back at square 1.
>Also, I don't frankly remember which characters die, except for the DID guy, but as far as I remember all the major characters got some kind of closure. Even their mother got some. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The lack of closure I refer to is their death was all for two reasons, it was either from Johan's plan or sacrifice to try and stop Johan. But the plan just kind of petering out at the end and Johan's motivations really proving to be garbage makes you question why did you bother.

>Shit, maybe I need to re-read it, I don't remember his deal much at all. Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, I think the story surrounding him is interesting enough, even if he's whack himself, which may or may not be the case.
Johan did everything because his mom saved him, but he wasn't sure if she meant to save him or his sister. I repeat he had mother issues and abandonment guilt from being the one who was saved. This is the stupidest shit possible for a villains motivation. He wanted the world to burn and became nihilistic for essentially no reason.

>>146142512
>>146143625
I must be drunk, because even though I don't remember writing this, I agree so much that I must have done so.

>>146144162
You are probably like me, frustrated from people routing a solid series as some perfect masterpiece. It especially irritates me hearing people call Johan some amazing, well written villain when he is possibly the flattest character of them all.

>>146143625
I don't know why story that loops back to square 1 is often considered "poor writing". Shinsekai Yori does basically this and as far as storylines go it's one of my favorites.

Also the series deals with legit mentally damaged people. Johan's motivations might be "stupid" in a sense they are anticlimactic, I understand what you mean, but not really stupid or unrealistic.

Anyway, the "overrated" meme is kind of dead because I don't know who outside mal actually considers the epitome of anything as it's clear to see how even the ridiculous series length hinders a lot.

>>146142383
TTGL is legitimately deeper than Monster though. Not that that automatically makes it better.

>>146145652
I think you confuse story themes that you understood as being "deep".

>>146138962
The German teacher raping a hooker in front of a child while explaining how life works was the greatest scene in the entirety of the show.

>>146145354
It's poor writing when it seems nothing was gained or learned from it, it means you went through all this shit but your characters did not grow or really get anything from it. It becomes a bland and superficial journey that ultimately culminated into nothing. It can work on mediums that that is their goal but when you want a thought provoking thriller, what Urasawa set out to do, making your villain have essentially no motivation except he's evil/things went too well for him and you protagonist not learn shit is just bad writing and makes you question if everything was a waste of time.

It's a fun read/watch, but it's ending makes it a much shallower experience and robs the series of its impact and potential.

>>146145652
TTGL had the depth of a shotglass. It's similar to Monster in that it's a fun 6-6.5/10 that have fanbases that over glorify the show as something ground breaking when they both are just superficial fun.

>>146142383
Not saying Monster is bad but I never finished it. Dropped it about probably halfway through, don't remember, when it became a patient-of-the-week thing where Tenma hid somewhere new every week and healed somebody. Was a year ago, I think he hid out with some little boy and then on a farm and then I just lost interest. I'll pick it back up again sometime but do you consider those parts masterpiece as well? Seemed filler-ish.

>>146146598
Not that anon, but most of the monster-of-the-week stories tie in the central plot nearer the end. Doesn't mean they aren't still largely unnecessary though and could be skipped to reduce the absurd length of the series.

>>146146019
Character growth =/= depth. Not every story is a coming of age archetype.

>>146146923
It's not the only thing, but it's what the growth and struggle can be analogues or metaphors for that give it depth. Depth is a topic not so easily breached because some series EVA are treated like they have significant depth when they consist largely of heavy-handed blatant analogies and symbolism that comes off more as a picture book to references of deep subjects rather than actual depth.

You can't just mention or touch on a subject and consider that being deep, the fact that series like Monster merely touch on a lot of its subjects shows how it's scratching surfaces rather than going indepth. Unless you meant TTGL, then there's fucking nothing outside of some basic stuff about believing in yourself which was mainly explored through the character development of Simon in the first season.

>>146146019
>that ultimately culminated into nothing
Why should a story culminate into something in the first place? You call this bad writing because from your subjective viewpoint you feel like your expectations were betrayed. This expectations are not however universally shared and I don't understand how you consider your opinion the standard. Not only that, but you clearly failed to see what the series was trying to convey with the ending.

I'm surprised they decided to animate Monster over 20th Century Boys.

>>146147089
>heavy-handed blatant analogies and symbolism that comes off more as a picture book to references of deep subjects rather than actual depth.

So if there is a study or theory that's being "referenced", it's not deep? I agree that simply adding a few philosphy quotes isn't deep, but people have been theorizing about a lot of subjects for thousands of years.

What I take from your comment is that you don't consider anything deep unless the concept being explored is new and original. But that's a bit far fetched, expecting an anime to come up with a new theory of psychology or philosophy without coming off as complete bullshit.

I'd rather define deep as something based on execution. If the different themes are all relevant to each other and the story weaves them together in a concise way, that makes them deep.

I'd like to take EVA as an example. A large part of the premise is to show a more realistic take on a genre, but it also applies to the characters. They initially come off as cliche, yet they all have a personality behind them. This all ties together with the theme of the difference between "the person being perceived and the person on the inside". People can never truly understand eachother, and that's why people keep help hurting eachother. It all reaches the climax in EoE, where Shinji realizes that even if people hurt eachother, there is value to human interaction.

I can't think of another anime that weaves it's concepts together as closely as EVA while still having a consistent story.

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>>146147098
I can't argue narrative structure and merits? Japan in general has a different narrative structure, the entire East does from the West however scholars often can only point to western narrative structures compared to eastern because it's more solid foundation. Eastern storytelling evolved from the heroes journey and as such are all parables that disregard things such as falling action or resolutions and skip many steps of the Shakespearean pyramid which was accepted as the standard globally due to it being the best way to convey logical progression and development. There are many exceptions, however the successful ones come from surreal or abstract styles rather than what is being depicted in stories such as Monster. It was trying to be a rather straight forward narrative but in the merits of one it falls short in many different steps including things such as motivations or some form of cohesive and satisfying conclusion.

Conclusion is important because it's human nature, people yearn for there be a result from effort and having a series that just kinda sputters out into a disappointing ending it leaves readers questioning if they just wasted their time if events didn't culminate into anything. This is a constant criticism of Urasawa that has followed him through his entire career.

Building a story is like building a house: sure you could leave things out like sewage pipes but ultimately where is all your shit going to go?

There is such a thing as objective value, you are following the fallacy of everything is subjective based on viewpoint. Objectively story elements are needed in order to properly craft a satisfying and enlightening story.

>>146147130
>20th Century Boys
That one got at least a movie.
Was it any good? Or like any other anime-to-live action-adaption?

>>146147756
>What I take from your comment is that you don't consider anything deep unless the concept being explored is new and original. But that's a bit far fetched, expecting an anime to come up with a new theory of psychology or philosophy without coming off as complete bullshit.
Wrong, something had depth when it goes further than its surface appearance. While yes EVA has depth, its depth is very shallow though and mostly is just imagery and blatant use of names. To give you an idea of something I see having depth is another entry level Gainax show, FLCL. FLCL touches on many subjects already touched on but uses its execution and imagery in more subtle ways, it never explicitly states the entire series is an analogy for puberty and growing up but instead holds many constant metaphors and scenes that can be interpreted being a surface level. FLCL is a series of metaphors, EVA is a series of similes.

>I'd like to take EVA as an example. A large part of the premise is to show a more realistic take on a genre, but it also applies to the characters. They initially come off as cliche, yet they all have a personality behind them. This all ties together with the theme of the difference between "the person being perceived and the person on the inside". People can never truly understand eachother, and that's why people keep help hurting eachother. It all reaches the climax in EoE, where Shinji realizes that even if people hurt eachother, there is value to human interaction.
What makes EVA unique is it's more realistic display of an actual cold being inserted into a mecha series. It was a deconstruction of a genre where hotshot child prodigies save the day and really looks at what happens when a child is put in the cockpit. The "depth" came from Anno sliding in all the religious references and terminology which gives it this superficial deeper meaning by pulling from a resource regarded as deep parables/metaphors.

>>146148056
I agree with most of what you said but I dont think a lot people think eva is deep because of the religious references or terminology or imagery.
Eva was always about personal relationships with crazy apocalyptic backdrop.
I want to say that the depth in eva came from the conflict betwween the human characters. And I think everyone gets that.

>>146149280
>Eva was always about personal relationships with crazy apocalyptic backdrop.
>I want to say that the depth in eva came from the conflict betwween the human characters. And I think everyone gets that.
I agree that that is where it's actual depth came from, but if you rewatch it there is little depth and it's more a straightforward drama that gets pretty blunt. Which is by no means a bad thing but it's not what really should be called depth, it's just the depth thing comes up with did this or that mean/symbolize which covers from Anno using Christian names/imagery for a stylistic flair rather than any real substance. There is a reason Anno himself says the meaning behind certain things in Eva change every few years, because he himself had no intention of depth when he put them in it was all just stylistic decisions which were very effective in creating visuals/a sense of depth.

>>146145880
I actually don't remember this. Do you know the episode?

>>146147760
But that's still an opinion which disregards all Monster tried to convey in the end in favor of nitpicking because you personally feel "things didn't change".

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but then again, many things you presented in your post like differences in eastern and western narration seem to be just cool shit you included in your post that doesn't have that much to do with Monster. I'm not exactly arguing that there are no objective values either. What I'm arguing is that your opinion of Monster has very little to do with overall narrative, which in fact ties all the plot threads and finalizes Tenma's worldview after sort of an ideological coming-to-age-story. What your posts boils down to is "Monster doesn't follow objective values of storytelling because I didn't like it". I'm not saying you have to like it, and there are parts where story is needlessly stretched and for example Johan is a bit anticlimactic in his motivations.

I get it, you didn't like the end. It's not by any means perfect. But even if Johan is free and Tenma didn't choose to straightforwardly kill everyone doesn't mean "nothing changed" or "nothing was achieved", and this sort of an viewpoint that claims the narration is garbage because it didn't fit your criteria is laughable.

>>146147760
>There is such a thing as objective value, you are following the fallacy of everything is subjective based on viewpoint
Why don't you give me an example of an objective value?
>>146149721
Deep is a buzzword. In your posts you at the same time state that Eva has actual depth but then again it doesn't. I'm really curious what you consider deep in the first place as that isn't reflected in any of your posts or I just happened to completely miss it.

>>146142383
>it dares to build suspense, it dares to show the naked openness of being on the hunt and being hunted
And it does this with chapters of random faggots' countryside SoL/life problems? And laughably shitty sections of familial character drama for the side characters? Please, anon.