How much value do you put into visual direction?
None. I'm blind.
Enough to avoid ugly garbage like Shaft anime
>>145573975
Not enough to ignore a shitty plot, which is why I don't enjoy Monogatari.
>>145574323
Plot is the least important part of a story. And certainly the least important part of a work.
>>145575944
Look at this faggot.
>>145575944
>>145575944
>falling for the visual medium meme
>>145576718
>>145576749
It's true. The actual events of a story don't matter nearly as much as the way it's told. A boring story about walking to Wal-mart can be told in an interesting or entertaining way and be far more valuable than a complex story about space warfare that's told like shit.
I won't pick up an anime unless the characters are pretty
>>145576749
>>145576718
How is a plot relevant to a story in a MEANINGFUL way. You can't relate or resonate with a plot as you would well developed, relatable, and interesting characters, or have an effect on you that resonant themes would onto your life.
Even if the story is really good, i can't watch Berserk shitty cgi.
>>145576919
That has nothing to do with visual direction. That has to do with garbage CG rendering.
>>145575944
I don't think you understand the difference between plot and story.
A lot, that's why I don't watch fucking SHAFT
>>145575944
>>145576718
>>145576749
>>145576791
>>145577054
The actual events that happen in a story don't matter as much as the story, characters, visual direction, etc.
Anon is correct
>>145578079
give me an ontological proof of that statement
>>145575944
Patrician taste over here.
>>145578203
Kill yourself
>>145579058
as expected
>>145576791
What meme you dipshit? It's a fucking visual medium.
>>145575944
>Plot is the least important part of a story.
Am I getting trolled?
>>145579459
No, you're just a basic person.
>>145579356
It's an opinion, dipshit. Also it's just true.
>>145573975
None. The only thing I care about is entertainment as a whole.
>>145579566
yes, it's just true despite your inability to give an ontological proof
>>145579388
The meme where people misinterpreted that as a reason to artificially favour certain aspects over others.
>>145579794
Then why don't you prove to me that plot matters more to the objective quality of a work
>>145580353
I never claimed that though
None, i'm deaf
Why the fuck would I care about visual direction in a visual medium?
>>145580773
memes
>>145573975
Enough for bad visuals to ruin a good story, which is why I don't enjoy Monogatari.
>>145582320
>monogatari
>good story
>>145582414
Well shit, if it doesn't have a good story after all, I don't know why anyone enjoys it in the first place. Certainly not for the visuals.
The story and how characters interact are more important to me than visual direction
>>145573975
100% that's a non question. That's like How much value do you put in prose, or how much value do you put into gameplay. It's infinitely important
>>145582619
Why
>>145582692
Because it's how the work interacts with you. It's how it argues it's ideas.
>>145579459
No. Simple people dont need plots getting in the way of shiny colours and pretty things. I mean who has time to understand things when you can just watch a slideshow of an anime
I only watch like 2 anime every season because outside of the few remarkable titles I can't deal with all the noise.
>>145575944
>Plot is the least important part of a story.
This is only true if your work has charm.
>>145582797
If it doesn't it's not a worthwhile piece either way.
>>145582745
Plot is literally the easiest aspect to appreciate. Oh wow cool events are happening.
There is not a single worthwhile anime plot. If you watch it for anything other than cute girls or mindless action you have some sort of malfunction in your brain.
>>145582885
You clearly haven't watchedUchouten Kazoku
>>145582885
>There is not a single worthwhile anime plot
Now that's bullshit. There's no objective way you can decide it.
>>145582885
Sure there are
Were there studio wars back in the golden age of American animation?
>Disney sameface strikes again!
>Warners isn't technically an animation studio! And Mel Blanc plays MC, what a surprise!
>There goes Fleischer again, covering up their QUALITY with 3-D effects.
>>145573975
None.
>there are people ITT arguing over cartoons
>>145583463
I HATE when people care about their hobbies
>>145583524
>consuming entertainment is a hobby
>>145583605
why are you on the anime board if you're apathetic to it?
>>145583463
and this isn't even specific to animation. This argument is relevant to all art. How much value the viewer places on technique of emotions rather than the composite narrative.
>>145583681
why are you so easily baited
>>145582320
Monogatari has a garbage story
>>145584352
it's funny because monogatari means story
Why doesn't Shaft hire talented directors?
>>145586218
Costs money to get talented folks and they don't care about making good anime.
>>145586218
Because Shinbo will literally force his style down their throat instead of allowing creative freedom.
>>145582885
Why are you guys responding to poor bait?
>>145583605
Is that meme arrow supposed to imply that's not an objectively true statement?
>>145586218
Why do you keep taking so much nigger cock if it keeps giving you a prolapsed anus?
>>145587335
You mad your favourite studio is devoid of talent?
>>145586218
Why doesn't SHAFT hire actual professional animators that won't draw characters off model in every single scene?
>>145573975
Enough to never watch Madoka because the character designs are atrocious.
>>145587335
Calm down autist
>>145573975
Kizu's opening sure was lit
>>145586218
They hired Shinbo over a decade ago
>>145587658
More like Shinbo hired SHAFT.
>>145587461
did they not get Watanabe to be the chief AD for Monogatari
how is she so cute bros
when is 02
>>145587708
I kinda get what you're trying to say, but 'hired' is the wrong word for it
>>145587753
This is a 500 year old vampire that can kill oddities
>>145587753
Airs in theaters next week, BD in half a year or so.
>>145586218
Like who? What anime directors actually have talent.
I challenge anyone to name 5.
>>145582464
do waifus count as visuals?
>>145573975
Reasonably high. I can turn off my brain to enjoy a shitty pretty show more easily than I can turn off my eyes to enjoy an ugly masterpiece.
>>145587833
FUCK
>>145587825
just the way i like em
>>145587825
>believing a woman when she tells you her age
She's 598.
>>145587877
Naoko Yamada
Yoshiji Kigami
Yasuhiro Takemoto
Haruka Fujita
Taichi Ishidate
>>145587877
Takahata
Ikuhara
Yamada
Yuasa
Sayo Yamamoto
>>145587877
Yamada, Ishihara, Takemoto, Ishidate, and Utsumi
>>145587984
>there are people who unironically believe this
>>145575944
>>145588096
Lmao I bet you like Shaft
>>145587877
Naoko Yamada
Masaaki Yuasa
Tatsuya Oishi
Tensho
Atsuko Ishizuka
Sayo Yamamoto
>>145587984
>Yasuhiro Takemoto
I feel like he's been regressing as a director.
Amagi and High Speed are easily his worst works as a director, what is this nigga doing?
>>145588116
>kyoani drone
>thinking he has some kind of high ground
>>145588129
His episodes are still top notch.
>>145588189
SHAFTshitter please go
>>145588189
I have no specific love of Kyoani, just hard work and talent.
>>145588211
Yeah, you're right about that.
Man, this place is really similar to /v/
I think i'll stay
>>145587877
Kenji Nakamura
Sayo Yamamoto
Ryuutaro Nakamura
IkuharaHideaki Anno
>>145575944
What a waste of dubs.
>>145588300
Welcome, you'll surely feel like home.
>>145573975
Kizu's art belongs in the trash
Whoever you are OP, I just wanna know that I really appreciate these threads.
>>145575944
This is 100% right.
>>145575944
>>145573975
More than Shaft apparently
>>145587877
lmao every one is just naming random famous auteurs
>>145588544
>>145588622
As opposed to what?
>>145575944
Descending from patrician to pleb:
Themes, motifs, symbolism ect
Direction, art design, animation, sound and other technical aspects
Characters
Plotbut ultimately all are important and it's how they are combined together as a whole that matters
>>145588862
descending from patrician to pleb:
me
OP
you
>>145587984
>>145588040
>>145588056
>>145588122
>>145588312
Your second challenge is to explain why these directors are good.
>>145588925
if you can't understand that then perhaps you should consider a hobby more your speed, say, knitting for example
>>145588793
Something that actually makes any sense. You don't make a big hollywood production and think, oh yeah i'll get Tarr to direct this, unless it's a production around them.
>>145588862
This is all true, but directing isn't a technical aspect.
>>145589017
Anime isn't Hollywood though.
>>145589070
It doesn't matter. You don't use that type of director to fill a role.
>>145589123
I don't even know what you're getting at anon. The guy said "name five directors with talent" but somehow auteurs are not allowed?
>>145589183
Read the context. It's not feasible to "hire" Kunihiko Ikuhara to stand in at SHAFT.
>>145589238
Wait do you seriously think any of those responses were directed towards that? Come on man. 50% of the responses were people trolling with Kyoani directors and the other half were newfags who wanted to show off their ability to namedrop.
>>145589307
>were newfags who wanted to show off their ability to namedrop.
That's what I was laughing at.
>>145588957
kek
>>145588957
Good dodge, you almost had to answer my question for a second there
>>145589393
questions with obvious answers need not be answered
>>145589238
That wasn't the point of the discussion though
>>145588957
Knitting would be too challenging for him.
>>145589428
I think that's a Shaft thing in general
>>145589428
It appeared to be a challenge to name directors that shaft should hire. With "like who" in a direct reply to some one questioning "why don't they hire talented directors"
>>145589428
This looks like a standard SHAFT TV/BD comparison
>>145589533
>what directors actually have talent
>name five
Piece it together.
>>145589533
Nobody was responding to the "like who" part mate.
>>145589512
>>145589564
>>145589428
>>145589586
>Like who?
>What anime directors actually have talent.
Unless i'm mistaken and these calls actually have no relation.
>>145589629
why dont more people do this
Name a better directed anime from this year
Honestly the backgrounds in Kizu were a bit jarring at times compared to the actors.
>>145590065
There isn't one, goes to show how bad this year has been. Thank God for this fall's lineup.
>>145590065
Wait for Fall.
>>145589629
Neat, I remember this.
>>145589512
What's wrong with that screenshot? Pretty good-looking. (The anime itself on the other hand...)
>>145583161
Disney
>started their own production company (Buena Vista)
>started their own amusement park based on characters from their kino
>became a major player in Hollywood solely on animation, not just an appendage to the 3DPD studios
>bought a major stake in one of the Big Four TV networks
>supposedly inspired the Japanese to take comics and animation after this guy named Osamu Tezuka got to meet his hero Walt
Is there anything they can't do?
>>145590268
literally the shit i made in middle school computer class
>>145590384
Pay and credit their workers; draw different faces on women; make a profit without their glorified county fair.
>>145590065
mob psycho 100
Character 2
Art 3
Plot 2
Presentation 3
On a 10 point basis, Art and Presentation are roughly 60% of the pull. Character and plot are 40%.
>>145590713
how did you arrive at these numbers
>>145590713
Themes don't matter at all? And isn't art a part of the presentation?
>>145590713
Character 4
Art 1
Plot 2
Setting 3
Good characters will drive a good story given a good setting any time. Art hardly matters at all.
>>145588862
You can have an anime without themes or symbolism. You can't have an anime without the animation.
>>145590781
I consider theme part of the plotline.
Presentation and art are definitely different. Presentation is basically how the story is told using all the tools (art/character/music/plot/etc).
>>145590765
Well the first thing you notice when you watch an anything is the presentation. How you the show tells its story is one of the most important thing. Then you get to see the characters and artistic directions. I put art more important than character simply because art is easier to digest. Usually when the art is good or unique, its got some quality to it. The plot then comes to unravel the scene and the plays.
Ofcourse the plot could suck entirely or have no plot(slice of life), but if the presentation/art/character draws you in, you're in for a ride.
>>145591242
that doesn't seem mathematically sound
>>145573975
A decent amount, it's a visual medium after all.
Why Monogatari story is garbage? i liked it to a certain extent.Please elucidate me.
>>145591012
If you want patrician stuff don't look for it in some cartoons for children retard.
>>145591769
It's not even garbage, it's just average when you remove all the pseudointellectual and otaku pandering shit.
>>145591769
It's Twilight for boys
>>145591883
I thought the story was simple and ok, but sometimes very confusing since there's a lot of shit that's said under the lines. I just get angry when my friends talk about monogatari like it's some intellectual masterpiece.
Include me in the screencap
>>145588862
>characters not of most importance
>muh symbolism
Nah, you're just being a pretentious fuck.
Kizu is shit compared to the TV series. I can't believe you guys considerer that shitty adaptation like a good thing.
>>145592650
TV series is even shittier as an adaptation.
>>145592650
They're both equally shit but at least Kizu looks sharper
>>145592527
Are you for real?
What are you, some kind of uber-humanist out to save people from dangerous ideas?
>>145592759
No. Preachy stories with nothing but empty symbolism and an agenda are complete shit. You need great characters to tell a story that has any sort of impact or substance.
>>145592747
It was 6 years powerpoint after all
>>145592962
you probably just didn't get it
>>145589428
needs more live action cuts and solid color stills with obscure kanji
>>145590713
Art and Presentation specifically exist to express the idea of the work. Ranking them higher than the idea itself is laughable.
>>145590268
Nisekoi seems much more appealing as an anime than a manga, to be honest
>>145592650
Just imagine what the TV series would like now if Oishi kept directing it
>>145592747
Owari was made when Kizu was doing. They best animators, time and money were taken.
Still the visuals of Kizu are worse, but I do not mean that. They put filler in the movie, cut important things and so on. Even if Owari have lack of money, animators and time, they do his best adapting the novel. Kizu with all that things, was a shitty adaptation.
>>145592962
Every story has "an agenda"
>>145593142
>Still the visuals of Kizu are worse, but I do not mean that
what did you (not) mean by this
>>145592962
>[stories I didn't understand] with [agendas I don't agree with] are complete shit
mmhmm
>>145593055
Art is presentation. Ideas are philosophy. Meaning in art is a tool to an end, focusing on it is meaningless.
>>145593226
When you pull shit like that, you get Atlas Shrugged. Please, enlighten me as to why that's the highest form of storytelling.
>>145590713
Film is like relationships. 80% bants, 20% looks.
>>145589428
>>145589629
I like how these anons have to create strawman images because they can't criticize SHAFT's actual work.
>>145593274
who made that argument
>>145593274
I haven't read it so you'll have to come up with a different example.
>6 years powerpoint animation
>>145593259
You have things in reverse, art itself is the tool. An idea by itself can be valuable, you just won't have an easy time sharing it. Art on the other hand is completely worthless without a good idea behind it, and can't even be recognized as "art".
>>145593358
From a political perspective, sure.
But I'm not a politician.
>>145593514
By all means, define "art" in a way that that still allows it to be created in any form, still separates it from any mundane object or action, but doesn't require the existence of an idea being expressed by it.
>>145593613
You said it yourself, art is the tool.
Not the idea, but the presentation thereof. Whether it's good art, or a good idea are two entirely separate issues. And I don't care much for the latter.
>>145587898
Yes
>>145573975
I'm surprised not a single person in this thread has mentioned Oshii.
>>145593904
A tool needs a use to be, well, useful.
>>145594126
Yes, to be useful. We've been over this already.
>>145594122
He's a hack desu
>>145594197
That's because you're missing or intentionally ignoring the point. "Art is a tool" is not an answer to >>145593613 because tools already exists as mundane objects. Once again: What is your definition of art?
>>145593055
Art should not be trying to say anything at all. A work of art that says nothing but does a lot with its form is more desirable than a dense thematic work with a thin aesthetic shell.
>>145594526
>Art should not be trying to say anything at all
>but does a lot with its form
Excuse me?
>>145594389
And ideas exist even without the art embellishing them. This line of argument is pointless. You're just being contentious, "art itself is the tool" were your words.
>>145594526
I guess the phrase "artistic expression" is just one gigantic misnomer then.
>>145575944
this is actually true, and everyone that got mad at this statement has a sub-110 IQ.
>>145594526
No such thing as a work of art which says nothing. Read a book instead of your twitter feed you pseud.
>>145573975
Depends on the show, it can make or break serious dramas or catapult action shows from "This is pretty ok" to "HOLY FUCKING SHIT", but some genres don't need it to be successful.
Read: Forced Animation
>>145594791
Which genre can be successful without visual merit and what's an example of a success within said genre?
>>145594526
Conveying aesthetic sensibilities is in itself saying something.
>>145594653
>And ideas exist even without the art embellishing them.
That's what I already said. Ideas exist without art, art does not exist without ideas.
>"art itself is the tool" were your words.
Read where I used it again, "art itself is a tool" is only distinguishing it from the idea behind the work. It doesn't meet >>145593613's criteria specifically because tools are part of "any mundane object or action".
If the best definition of "art" you have is the one I just gave you, then I can only possibly take that as an admission that I'm correct.
>>145594837
Konosuba is generally regarded as visually hideous but succeeded purely on account of the excellent performance given by the actors.
>>145594837
Visual direction != visual merit, Aria had great, even amazing visuals with amazing scenery shots, but it didn't need to move quickly or take advantage of panning shots to get its point across. Full scenes could be done on the same background in anime without the camera shifting at all and they were brilliant.
If you're arguing that direction = visuals then we're just arguing semantics and I'll concede the point because that argument would be pointless.
>>145592747
Seriously, fuck whoever storyboarded this. This webm is everything that's wrong with Shaft in a single file.
>>145592650
TV series post-bake is fucking mediocre. You just have shit taste.
>>145595243
Koichi Kikuta's episodes looked great though, and the character designs were appropriately silly.
>>145595275
Aria anime was a bland unimaginative adaptation of a good manga
>>145595243
Is it? I've seen it praised for its willingness to go off model and get a little sloppy with its character animation. That said, Konosuba blows.
>>145595275
I was just talking in terms of appearance in general. Direction is an ambiguous thing to nail down so I just don't bother.
>>145595288
TATARI would be proud of all those cuts.
>>145595293
I dunno, Nise had some effective fucking direction for something that devoid of substance.
It might be some of Shinbo's best work in recent memory.
>>145595360
The manga couldn't include its godlike soundtrack so I'm inclined to think your post is bait. If we're talking specifically about the animation then I don't know where you're coming from, it was faithful to the source material. Were there things cut that I would've like to see in it? Sure, but overall I think they did a pretty stellar job.
>>145595525
Shinbo worked on Nise?
>>145595360
Why does Sato keep making good manga boring as fuck?
>>145595275
Not that guy but I disagree with your example. I found the Aria anime ugly and unconvincing in its depiction of the beauty of the setting. I also think Sato Junichi can't do iyashikei well. It was enough to ruin the show for me.
>>145593142
Every SHAFT adaptation cuts a fuckload of important things. Remember Kabuki? It's inevitable with Nisio's style writing significant interactions, foreshadowing, and subtext into seemingly-meaningless mountains of banter.
>>145595574
Didn't he? I could be wrong.
If he didn't, someone did a damn good job.
>>145595525
>nise
>shinbo's work
>>145573975
>visual direction
aka knocking off Suspiria
>>145595525
>for somethingthat devoid of substance
Nise developed Araragi more than any individual Monogatari besides maybe Kizu. For all the nostalgiafagging people do for Bake, 90% of it was just Araragi being Oshino's errand boy while people got to know the setting.
>>145595660
Whoever it was, props.
>>145595450
Oh, then yes I agree with you. I was replying to OP's post where he specifically said Visual Direction.
If we're talking about just appearance I can't think of anything that had its quality improved by looking bad. Unless you watched Kaiji/Akagi because you thought to yourself "what the fuck is this shit" and wound up liking it.
Actually that might be a good example.
>>145594837
One Punch Man has got awful visuals and is solely carried by its amazing animation.
>>145592650
I bet you're one of those faggots who enjoys the shitty monologues and exposition that LN adaptations have. Fucking sick of that shit.
>>145595721
One thing I can think of would be Di Gi Charat (the original 1999 series) which is tacky looking, simplistic and very cheaply made but even in that case I'd say the aesthetic elevates the material quite a bit, so I could hardly call it bad even if it may be conventionally defined as such.
>>145595797
What part of animation is not visual to you? And it was hardly awful.
>>145595352
>>145595450
It was expressive, which I personally would prefer expressive and ugly over sterile and professional, but ideally you want to be great at both. DEEN's just very good at making the most of what they're given.
>>145595243
KonoSuba was too brought down by being generic LN crap with unfunny, repetitive humor and annoying characters.
>>145595180
>art does not exist without ideas
Yes, and?
>Read where I used it again, "art itself is a tool" is only distinguishing it from the idea behind the work
Again, because the idea isn't art. The embellishment of it is. The presence of an idea being necessary for a working definition of art does not provide any judgement as to whether it should be the focus for evaluating it. Because the same thing goes for the "tool" you speak of, since an idea alone isn't art.
Which is why I said this argument is pointless.
That we should judge by the merits of the idea is your value judgement. That the embellishment itself is more interesting is mine. Goodbye.
>>145594680
I think there is a difference between saying something and expressing something via the craft that comes with the medium. In any case, what the artist has to say has less importance than how they say it.
Who was in the wrong here?
>>145596540
KinoAni is superior
>>145596471
>I think there is a difference between saying something and expressing something
Not in this discussion's usage. You're just splitting hairs.
>what the artist has to say has less importance than how they say it.
There literally wouldn't be something said if they didn't have something to say, so no.
>>145596670
In a way, not saying anything is saying something.
>>145596205
>Again, because the idea isn't art. The embellishment of it is.
Nice direct self-contradiction.
>That we should judge by the merits of the idea is your value judgement. That the embellishment itself is more interesting is mine.
Unfortunately, your idea of "embellishment" is fundamentally flawed. That's precisely why, in the end, you were never able to answer >>145593613.
>>145596540
It's not fair because Hibike is beautiful.
>>145595797
>One Punch Man has got awful visuals
it was above average than your seasonal shit.
>>145596715
>In a way, not saying anything is saying something.
That's because "not saying anything" is still both a state of being and a course of action, like "saying something" is. That's why I said it was splitting hairs, because no matter what something is still being communicated, and to be recognized it has to be meaningful.
>>145596670
Every single idea and theme in all of life has already been explored so why should we prioritize ideas in art. Why should I like an anime for its thematic exploration when everything it has to say has probably been done better in other mediums. The way the artist uses the tools specific to its medium to create a unique experience is far more interesting to me than their hollow insight. FLCL is a simple coming of age story but its punk nostalgic aesthetic, epileptic understated storytelling and stylistic experimentation are all so tied directly into its narrative framing that it feels special.
>>145597479
*elliptical understated storytelling
>>145597479
>Every single idea and theme in all of life has already been explored
That's an incredibly arrogant and short-sighted thing to say, even for /a/.
>Why should I like an anime for its thematic exploration when everything it has to say has probably been done better in other mediums.
>probably
So you're saying you don't even know if that's the case, you're just assuming they are even though you personally haven't seen otherwise.
> The way the artist uses the tools specific to its medium to create a unique experience
Which happens because of the idea behind the work.
>is far more interesting to me than their hollow insight.
Which also happens because of the idea behind the work.
>FLCL is a simple coming of age story but its punk nostalgic aesthetic, epileptic understated storytelling and stylistic experimentation are all so tied directly into its narrative framing that it feels special.
There are as many different ways to create a "coming of age story" as there are ways to actually come of age. Technically, there's even more. This still doesn't contradict my point.
So, in summary, the things you like come from the idea that goes into the work, the things you don't like also come from the idea that goes into the work. It seems accurate to say that the idea is, in fact, the thing you care about most, you just haven't realized it.
>>145597479
>done better in other mediums
holy fuck this mentality triggers me so bad